Topic: Premier League fixtures 27th and 28th JAN.

[shelovesyou]

If you're not going to the game, then no. Thank heavens.

no im not and i wont until the yanks have gone ......
but if i did do you honestly think i wouldnt shout it from the rooftops and back my LFC ? because I would , even if we were down to 8 men and 6-0 down there is always HOPE .

[cowtownred]

Do you mind not swearing in front of my wife?   

Which one?

You ould twat.

[Guz-kop]

11 clean sheets in a row, fuck me that is impressive

And this is true, so we spend virtually our entire season budget on Keane.  This is seriously baffling to me.

I am probably one of the biggest Rafa backers on this site.. its well known, don't need to justify the statement.

That decision was the most baffling to me in his 5 years. No point going on, its done, the guy is average at the most, never gonna fit our way of playing, not our style etc etc.  Plus with wages, 40 million squid in 5 years for a plkayer age 32 at the end of his contract. I( couldn't get it, and now I'm really angry at the misjudgement that was.  Really angry.  Frankly I hate the owners more than most, but they'd have a right to see their  (oops spot the mistake) dosh wasted like that.  Balls, I hate the waste of serious money, our Cantona?  Ha ha.


Anyway.. rant aside, what I want to ask, is why have we seen the gap between ourselves and the filthy Mancs grow wider since 2005?

Its a serious question.

I recall in 2005 we were leagues away from them;  then in 2006, and especially at the time we beat them in the Cup, we were all pontificating how we'd reached their level... and could overtake them in the next year or two??

Well, optimistic as I am, (I've been harangued often on here for my idealistic shite).. it is blatantly apparent that we will be a long way behind the fuckers in May. And worse, for ages we were on their heels... its going to be even more sour this year.

But why are we further behind (correction... WILL be further behind in May than ever)??  Really?

What have they done to increase the gap? Is it Berbatov? Is Ferguson a better manager?

Or are we worse than before, and if so, why?

I'm needing answers, and thats why I ask the questions.

I don't want hammered for my pessimism, but we will not catch them now; we will not win at the Toilet; and anyone who thinks thats not realistic is not being true to whats going on.

I dont agree with your pessimism for this season but it's a good point that not many have mentioned. We were only a point off them in 2006 and our home form that season was bordering on fantastic with most teams dispatched with great ease and our away record improving largely thanks to Peter Crouch. The following summer really dented us in the transfer market with money wasted on Kuyt, Pennant and to a much lesser degree Craig Bellamy. Was that the summer we wanted Simao, Alves, Figo and Luisao (obviously not wanting ALL of them!)? We fucked up there and I don't think we've recovered since. Torres is the only signing to have made a real impact to our football, Mascerhano to a far lesser degree IMO even though he is quality. We just haven't kicked on from 2006 which should've been the springboard to success, not this season and not Istanbul. We proved in 05/06 that we could generally beat the scrappy teams and could give the likes of Chelsea and United good games on their patch even if we lacked the killer instinct to score goals. I think our football has matured especially for the european scene where we can keep the ball a hell of a lot better and get important results away from home but it has dented our football in the league I think which is why Anfield turned from a fortress (9 points dropped at home in 05/06 if my maths is right including a draw with united and 4-1 loss to Chelsea) to us shitting ourselves when the likes of Stoke come to us.

I thought we needed a bit of a radical change last summer and presumably Rafa thought the same with the [potential] signings of Barry, Keane, Dossena and then later Riera. But our football hasn't really changed that much and I fear that the summer gone might be like the one in 2006. As I said I think our football has matured since then and our squad is much much stronger on paper but we seemed to have made a slight improvement against Chelsea/United but gone backwards against the rest. Clearly we're closer to the league title but exactly how close I do not know and if you asked me 3 years ago if I thought we were ready to kick on and start winning leagues then I would've thought most definitley.

But in terms of this season we still have to wait and see. See where it takes us and where we end up. If we are as close to the mancs as we were in 2006 we'll have done superbly and should learn from our mistakes and kick on.

[Dr Cornwallis]

Back in days of yore, when we were winning leagues, we would often have spells of two or three games or sometimes more with poor results.  Reading Rushy's autobiography at the moment and he talks of these periods where points were dropped and how Fagan didn't really give a fuck over one bad result.  But a second bad result on the trot and he went ballistic at the players, even the likes of Kenny and Souness.  Or even Sammy.  Hence my belief he will know what to do at this club when the time is right. 

During these periods of bad results it was normal for teams to make ground on us.  The difference between then and now is that United seem to have favourable decisions in their games which leads to them picking up points in games that we would draw.  Even the commentators indicate this from time to time, the ability to 'pick up points when playing badly'.  Now, it's correct to say that United sometimes dont need to bend rules to beat teams in tight games, but it's hard to give plausible reasons for some of the decisions they have benefitted from this season in some games.

Tonight was one in a long line of games this season where the referee has bottled some important decisions that have favoured United.  Ferdinand and Vidic should both have been booked within the first 20 minutes of the game today.  Both centre backs committed professional fouls to stop West Brom breaking away at pace.  Complete, stonewall bookings. 

[Andy @ Allerton!]

When United were drawing at Stoke and Bolton, with 30 minutes left they went hell for leather and got the results. Rafa leaves it to late or brings on Babel for Riera no matter what.

When the Mancs are struggling - usually the referee gets involved.

Struggling against Bolton at home - Ref awards a dodgy pen.
Struggling against Blackburn away - Ref ignores an elbow on the 'keeper
Struggling against West Brom at home - Ref awards a disgraceful Freekick
Struggling against West Brom away - Sends their captain off and books four or five others. Then allows an offside goal to help the goal difference. Then ignores a rugby tackle from Vidic and doesn't send Ferdinand off for a professional foul.
Struggling in the cup? Allows an offside goal. Sends a player off. Awards a penalty
Scraping past in the FA Cup? Disregards a clear handball by Scholes

There are loads of examples of this so far this season and they won't be the last.

You can say it's "Luck" but how much "Luck" have we had (For instance?)

Stoke goal wrongly disallowed
Third goal against Everton
Blatent Penalty ignored against Man City



And then that's not even taking into account the basics.

Telling a referee to 'Fuck off' and calling them 'a c*nt' repeatedly, the officials would have you believe is a cardable offence and yet Manchester United players do it regularly. Why is this permitted?

Why can Rio Ferdinand and Vidic repeatedly commit professional fouls and nothing is ever given?

All these things are facts and the media - who bleat on about every subject but one endlessly - entirely and utterly and completely ignore this one.

Why is that?

Why is it that officials can be called 'cheats' and 'robbers' and then the chief of FA Refs is accused of all sorts - and nothing is done? The charges are quietly dropped and the media doesn't report it?

Even if you ignored everything else - what about Ronaldo and Rooney and others diving - again bookable offences. Why aren't these punished in the way the rules state? Why doesn't the press comment on it? Why isn't it reported?

I'm quite happy to shut the fuck up - IF someone can explain to me why a media desperate and hungry for any story no matter how stupid and facile repeatedly and wilfully doesn't address something that pretty much every fan in the country is now starting to think.

There is something rotten at the core of English football. It doesn't take a genuis to know it's obviously money related - and perhaps more than that.

But why is it not investigated?

How come it's always 'kept quiet' and brushed under the carpet.

I'm all for 'luck' and 'the luck of the draw' and 'these things happen'

But. When they happen EVERY WEEK. Well that's pushing 'luck' too far. It's just not credible past a certain point.

Is it because the press are spineless and gutless? Is it another reason? Why don't they even answer what other people are thinking? Why isn't it seen as a story? Are they scared of Manchester United? Are they scared of Ferguson? Is there anything dodgier than even that going on?

[killer-heels]

11 clean sheets in a row, fuck me that is impressive

I dont agree with your pessimism for this season but it's a good point that not many have mentioned. We were only a point off them in 2006 and our home form that season was bordering on fantastic with most teams dispatched with great ease and our away record improving largely thanks to Peter Crouch. The following summer really dented us in the transfer market with money wasted on Kuyt, Pennant and to a much lesser degree Craig Bellamy. Was that the summer we wanted Simao, Alves, Figo and Luisao (obviously not wanting ALL of them!)? We fucked up there and I don't think we've recovered since. Torres is the only signing to have made a real impact to our football, Mascerhano to a far lesser degree IMO even though he is quality. We just haven't kicked on from 2006 which should've been the springboard to success, not this season and not Istanbul. We proved in 05/06 that we could generally beat the scrappy teams and could give the likes of Chelsea and United good games on their patch even if we lacked the killer instinct to score goals. I think our football has matured especially for the european scene where we can keep the ball a hell of a lot better and get important results away from home but it has dented our football in the league I think which is why Anfield turned from a fortress (9 points dropped at home in 05/06 if my maths is right including a draw with united and 4-1 loss to Chelsea) to us shitting ourselves when the likes of Stoke come to us.

I thought we needed a bit of a radical change last summer and presumably Rafa thought the same with the [potential] signings of Barry, Keane, Dossena and then later Riera. But our football hasn't really changed that much and I fear that the summer gone might be like the one in 2006. As I said I think our football has matured since then and our squad is much much stronger on paper but we seemed to have made a slight improvement against Chelsea/United but gone backwards against the rest. Clearly we're closer to the league title but exactly how close I do not know and if you asked me 3 years ago if I thought we were ready to kick on and start winning leagues then I would've thought most definitley.

But in terms of this season we still have to wait and see. See where it takes us and where we end up. If we are as close to the mancs as we were in 2006 we'll have done superbly and should learn from our mistakes and kick on.

We have done as well as expected so far so the team deserves credit for that. I believe we have progressed from last year and we will expect more progression next season.

The key is the summer. The signings we made last summer were not that great. We need to be spot on next summer. Its the key summer in terms of our teams evolution, otherwise it may go the way Houlliers team went after we finished 2nd.

[4pool]

Indeed, for all of rafa's footballing brain he lacks the necessary and simple side of the game - get yer players to enjoy themselves, feel good about themselves and invariably play well, score and win. Lol it ain't rocket science. I can't believe with the wealth of talent in the club we make scoring a first goal at home akin to climbing mount everest and even worse, scoring a second goal is akin to then climbing k2!

So what did Rafa do when he won La Liga twice?

Beat the players with whips and rods?

Loads of excuses and analyzing and most of it rubbish.

It's up to the players to perform. When Gerrard scored v Everton in both matches, how much celebrating and joy did you see out of our players?  Make no mistake, they want to win. All they need to do is convert their chances.

[shelovesyou]

Back in days of yore, when we were winning leagues, we would often have spells of two or three games or sometimes more with poor results.  Reading Rushy's autobiography at the moment and he talks of these periods where points were dropped and how Fagan didn't really give a fuck over one bad result.  But a second bad result on the trot and he went ballistic at the players, even the likes of Kenny and Souness.  Or even Sammy.  Hence my belief he will know what to do at this club when the time is right. 

During these periods of bad results it was normal for teams to make ground on us.  The difference between then and now is that United seem to have favourable decisions in their games which leads to them picking up points in games that we would draw.  Even the commentators indicate this from time to time, the ability to 'pick up points when playing badly'.  Now, it's correct to say that United sometimes dont need to bend rules to beat teams in tight games, but it's hard to give plausible reasons for some of the decisions they have benefitted from this season in some games.

Tonight was one in a long line of games this season where the referee has bottled some important decisions that have favoured United.  Ferdinand and Vidic should both have been booked within the first 20 minutes of the game today.  Both centre backs committed professional fouls to stop West Brom breaking away at pace.  Complete, stonewall bookings.

that maybe the case but they stopped the break didnt they !!!!

[lamonti]

By the way Pennant wasn't on fire tonight. He had about 30 good minutes where he put in loads of crosses that Villa dealt with, one corner after corner (all of which Villa dealt with), had a weakish shot on target and did a few tidy runs from deep in his half.

The grass is always greener, etc... it was exactly the kind of performance he put in for us. Alright, but you know, just not really good enough.

[Stussy]

Your right to ask.

I like Rafa, always liked him but i always feels he falls short because he doesnt have the striking balance of technical/man management/motivation.......Analysing stats can only take you so far, players are only human as is the manager. When you need that extra 10 percent do you show the players a chart or tell them to get out there and play the game of their lives?
..........It should be a case of the players being sent out believing that they have the tools to take anyone to task and if not run them all the way to the wire.

To be honest I think that's the most serious constructive criticism of Rafa that can be made, this question of his managerial personality, and if we're being honest here even his greatest supporters will admit that at times it carries the ring of some truth. It's about intangibles though, and it can be exaggerated or amplified to a level that might not be fair in different contexts.

We have to find the higher gear. I think it comes down to this. The most serious criticism is that the man who has taken us to this position also inhibits us from finding, and then staying in that gear. Royhendo has written a massive thread on this the Level 3 and Level 4 stuff.

[Terry de Niro]

Which one?

You ould twat.

Mr Ould twat to you..

I'm just remembering that little slanging you had with that Rangers fan.

[Brentieke]

And this is true, so we spend virtually our entire season budget on Keane.  This is seriously baffling to me.

I am probably one of the biggest Rafa backers on this site.. its well known, don't need to justify the statement.

That decision was the most baffling to me in his 5 years. No point going on, its done, the guy is average at the most, never gonna fit our way of playing, not our style etc etc.  Plus with wages, 40 million squid in 5 years for a plkayer age 32 at the end of his contract. I( couldn't get it, and now I'm really angry at the misjudgement that was.  Really angry.  Frankly I hate the owners more than most, but they'd have a right to see their  (oops spot the mistake) dosh wasted like that.  Balls, I hate the waste of serious money, our Cantona?  Ha ha.


Anyway.. rant aside, what I want to ask, is why have we seen the gap between ourselves and the filthy Mancs grow wider since 2005?

Its a serious question.

I recall in 2005 we were leagues away from them;  then in 2006, and especially at the time we beat them in the Cup, we were all pontificating how we'd reached their level... and could overtake them in the next year or two??

Well, optimistic as I am, (I've been harangued often on here for my idealistic shite).. it is blatantly apparent that we will be a long way behind the fuckers in May. And worse, for ages we were on their heels... its going to be even more sour this year.

But why are we further behind (correction... WILL be further behind in May than ever)??  Really?

What have they done to increase the gap? Is it Berbatov? Is Ferguson a better manager?

Or are we worse than before, and if so, why?

I'm needing answers, and thats why I ask the questions.

I don't want hammered for my pessimism, but we will not catch them now; we will not win at the Toilet; and anyone who thinks thats not realistic is not being true to whats going on.

THe 2006 comparison is an intersting one.

We finished a point behind them then, us on 82 them on 83.

Quite simply we made some terrible transfers in the summer of 2006. The summer of 2005 signings like Sissoko, Reina and Crouch took us up a level but then the 2006 ones took us back down.

Gonzalez, Pennant, Paleta, Bellamy, Kuyt and Aurelio. Of those 6, 4 are out of the door and neither Kuyt or Aurelio have had huge impacts on us.

We went amazingly backwards in 2006/07 becuase of failed signings and the loss of form of key players of the season before (Sissoko, Kewell, Riise). The mancs however made one key signing on their weakest postion, central midfield, and saw their key players improve hugely. They also benefitted from the 6 months bedding in time Evra and Vidc (both signed in Jan 06) had the previous season.

Since then we've been playing catch up. While we've mproved our first 11 somewhat (Masch and Torres), they have been able to invest more in attacking areas.

These are Rafa's attack + attacking midfield signings since the CUp win in 2006:

Gonzalez, Pennant, Kuyt, Bellamy, Torres, Benayoun, Babel, Keane, Riera.

1 big success in Torres, otheriwse full of average (Kuyt, Bellamy) to shite(Gonzalez) to 1in3 players (Benayoun, Riera).

So yes IMO, we've suffered becuase Rafa has made far too many mistakes in the transfer market, often going for quantity over quality. We could have got Ribery for the money we spent on Benayoun and Babel for example, 2 players in all probabilty out of the door this summer.

And in all hionesty, IMO, Ferguson just wants it more. He just seems to value winning alot more than Rafa, whose priiority you feel is not to lose.

[shelovesyou]

We have done as well as expected so far so the team deserves credit for that. I believe we have progressed from last year and we will expect more progression next season.

The key is the summer. The signings we made last summer were not that great. We need to be spot on next summer. Its the key summer in terms of our teams evolution, otherwise it may go the way Houlliers team went after we finished 2nd.

Deffo the best way to look at things , we are in the race still and its nearly February , we look good in the CL also and still in the FA Cup so it does all look good but like others it is a huge worry that we MAY falter .......

[walshys_mullet]

Heres to 3-0 tomorrow after all this inquest c

catch yas later

[mainstandscouser]

The Mancs are bothering me less and less weirdly because the league is blatently fixed (I could and have given several 'decisions' this season that have changed a draw into a win - but can't be arsed posting it again).

IF it was a bit less clear it would annoy me - but it is about as crystal as it's ever likely to get.

Just a bit miffed that I didn't put money on my predictions - I'd be minted.

The league is fixed. The Mancs might suprise me and put one of their rare good performances together in the league so far this year (Apart from Chelsea they've ranged from average to awful) - but don't worry - if it's getting to 75+ minutes and they are struggling for a goal - the lad in black will help them out - dodgy penalty, insane free kick, ignored elbow to the throat, opposition player sent off - nothing that these heroic lads in black in the middle of the park won't do to help their chums up in Salford.

As I say, it's not even debatable any more.

So! Like me - don't get wound up by it - expect it (Like I have fully for their last few games) and you won't be disappointed.

They will put a good performance in tonight - and if they don't? The ref will throw it for them - they've done it 7 or 8 times this season already - no reason to suspect they won't continue.

Concentrate on the Reds - although I don't hold out much hope we'll get any favours til the end of the season.

That's an interesting theory Andy. Personally I was thinking they'd been winning the league because they were the best side over the course of the season.

Is it also fixed that we are dropping so many points at home this season to let them in?

Look, it hurts like hell but they are better than us - especially in their ruthless despatch of so called smaller teams in the league.

[Terry de Niro]

That's an interesting theory Andy. Personally I was thinking they'd been winning the league because they were the best side over the course of the season.

Is it also fixed that we are dropping so many points at home this season to let them in?

Look, it hurts like hell but they are better than us - especially in their ruthless despatch of so called smaller teams in the league.

Although it hurts me to agree, that is fucking spot on.
I just hope we can turn it around from now on in..

[slickman]

Lets just back the team we have to believe that our era of dominance is just round the corner , when it was 18 league titles to 7, utd didn't throw the towel in  despite being 11 titles  behind and seeing us lift the league regulary they firmly belived they could win the title again, now we must do the same  so even if we dont win the title this year we have to remember as soon as win the 1st whenever that maybe, it could be the 1st of many. Lets just go out the remaining season and give it our best shot and not be fearful of what might happen, missed oppurtunities should be reflected on at the end of the season not half way through when we can still do something about it.

[JimmyGrunt]

^ if we got decisions like they do basically every game, then chances are, we wouldnt drop points. Lets face it, it is basically every week you ask yourself the same thing - and it usually starts "how the fuck..."

[WelshMike]

That's an interesting theory Andy. Personally I was thinking they'd been winning the league because they were the best side over the course of the season.

Is it also fixed that we are dropping so many points at home this season to let them in?

Look, it hurts like hell but they are better than us - especially in their ruthless despatch of so called smaller teams in the league.

No, us dropping points is our own fault.

The two aren't mutually exclusive though as people on here seem to think.

Have we dropped plenty of stupid points (particularly in home games)? Yes, without a doubt. And yes Rafa makes silly decisions that I wouldn't go along with too but not everyone agrees on everything - personally I think Keane's a very good player who deserves a chance here and has been treated badly but plenty disagree so fair enough.

But there's so much rubbish posted in this thread. Apparently if you think the Mancs are cheats then you're crazy because:
a) West Brom didn't have a chance anyway
b) We drop too many points
c) Rafa's not good enough, we're not fighters
d) etc etc etc

So much rubbish it's unreal. I never even said that I disagreed with the statement 'we've dropped too many points at home this season'. But people put words into my mouth. And yet we're still very much in the title race. If we keep dropping points then I'll be fucking unhappy and we'll soon be out of it (and will deserve to be) but we're not, so if you're going to moan then do so constructively.

West Brom probably wouldn't have got anything today. I'm not complaining about offsides or yellow cards or them hitting the post. I also admittedly haven't seen the red card decision yet but by all accounts it was an absolute shocker. It's not this one decision that I'm complaining about. They were already 1-0 up and West Brom probably wouldn't have won/drawn, certainly wasn't expecting them to, but so what? That makes cheating / ridiculous decisions (delete as applicable) alright then does it? We didn't expect Bolton, Stoke, Blackburn and co to get anything off the Mancs either but they might well have done if the game wasn't fucking handed to them. But hey why complain because we didn't expect them to get anything anyway, right?

It's a joke - an absolute joke, and it has been for a while now. The most corrupt league in the world. Manchester United get away with more than any team I've ever seen.

[Brian Blessed]

Another frustrating night. Never would have thought at thbeginning of the season the season that we could be fighting out for 3rd/4th with Chelsea and Arsenal, but that's a real possibility now, given our recent form. But then again a week from now we could be in first. It's such an odd season, but what type of title challenge would it be for us if it wasn't difficult.

We left Arsenal for dust, but they're slowly creeping up on us, while Villa and United have full heads of steam at the right time. Chelsea...well, who knows, they're in the same boat as us, there's no consistency, they're a Jekyll and Hyde.

Reading the thread there does seem to be a growing frustration with Rafa, and it's not good that it's coming off rival results rather than our own. Obviously our results aren't helping, but tonight seems different.

I can also see why he wants complete control of transers. In the summer if it had been up to him to choose between Keane and Barry, I really think he'd have gone for Barry and at least then, if we were fading as we seemingly are, he could be held totally responsible. Because if the worst happened and we finished 5th, there's a good chance he'd go, it would be his head on the chopping block, not Parry's or anyone else.

I understand the pessimism, people giving up. It's a defence mechanism...better to prepare four months in advance, than take all that disappointment in one go come May. However, a phrase I've read many times in this thread is "The Liverpool Way', and to me that doesn't mean giving up in January because United beat WBA (which was foregone). We've come back from worse, and we are more than capable of doing so again.

At this point I'm assuming nothing, I'm simply along for the ride. I'm not going to love Liverpool any more or less if we come first or fifth I wanted a title challenge and to get to the knockout stage of the Champions League. To still be up there later than November. Well, we've done that, without our best striker.

Finally, I wouldn't say that MON has done in three years what Rafa has done in five. Not yet. A team can overachieve for a season. Everton did it when they came fourth. The following season? Not even close. It remains to be seen if Villa are the real deal.

 

[buzzing]

Just remembered we drew with these fuckers

Brings home how average some of our attacking players are. As bright as Riera has been for us he needs to work on his fitness cause we need more than one half from him. Really like him, but can't quite figure out if he is very good, or just average, but looks better in our team as he brings something we haven't had in years

[John C]

Some interesting discussions tonight. I wasn't keen on the euphoria when we were top when it was really by default due to MU & Chelsea slipping up rather than us being outstanding over the Prem. Our two wins against them are to be proud of, its progress and puts us in a great position, but I'm glad some peoples feet are firmly in the ground.
Another busy day tomorrow, see yer.

[Johnnyboy1973]

Hmm, tad anxious already.

[And Could He Play]

Massive, massive, massive game tomorrow.

[LFCfan4Life]

Just remembered we drew with these fuckers

Brings home how average some of our attacking players are. As bright as Riera has been for us he needs to work on his fitness cause we need more than one half from him. Really like him, but can't quite figure out if he is very good, or just average, but looks better in our team as he brings something we haven't had in years

with West brom? when?

or you mean Stoke well they never came here to play football but they went there thinking they could get 3 because spurs are in the relegation zone dogfight just like them - thick c*nts

[bryanod]

Why haven't we caught up since 2005?

Nemanja Vidic - Spartak Moscow to Manchester United (7 mil)
Patrice Evra - Monaco to Manchester United (5.5 mil)
Michael Carrick - Tottenham Hotspurs to Manchester United (18.6 mil)
Carlos Tevez (Loan-Permanent Deal £30m)
Anderson (FC Porto, £8m rising to £20.4m),
O Hargreaves (Bayern Munich, £16.8m rising to £20.2m),
Nani (Sporting Lisbon, £8m rising to £17.3m),
Berbatov - Spurs - £30.75 million.


6 Players over 17million, two starts regularly this season. We haven't got that luxury.

[LFCfan4Life]

more importantly did porkchop face bring on bale so he could win his first PL game??

[theCanadian]

Something that might be really telling is what Babel said about a year ago on Rafa. I can't find the article, it was a while back. The essence of what he said was that Rafa teaches him what to do in terms of defending, tells him what he wants on the pitch in his own half, but gives him absolutely no instruction or advice on how to attack.

I'm sure this is a bit of exaggeration as far as the balance between attacking and defending goes, but it seems to me that Rafa has a better understanding of how to defend than how to score goals. There is little evidence that he has the ability to improve attacking players once he's bought them. Torres and Gerrard are really our only two attacking players of significant note, and both were already world-class when Rafa first got to use them. Others like Pennant, Gonzalez, Keane, Babel, Cisse, Baros etc., Rafa has not improved their ability and their performances were often poor.

When you look at our defense it is the opposite. Rafa has a much better record with buying defenders and getting the best out of them. Carragher became regonized as truly world class after Rafa arrived. Hyypia had many incredible performances for us since Rafa's arrival. Agger and Skrtel also demonstrated that Rafa has much more ability at spotting hidden, inexpensive defensive talent than he does with attacking talent. (Of course there have been a couple duds, the main one being Paletta.)

For all these reasons, I have a hard time arguing with people when they say Rafa is a defensive coach. It's not that he intends to just defend, but he is better at getting his team to defend than to attack. Our inability to break down inferior teams putting 11 men behind the ball has demonstrated this.

[Stussy]

Mancs have had 11 clean sheets in a row. That's why, alongside our failure to find our highest gear, they are in pole position.

[El Campeador]

Finally, I wouldn't say that MON has done in three years what Rafa has done in five. Not yet. A team can overachieve for a season. Everton did it when they came fourth. The following season? Not even close. It remains to be seen if Villa are the real deal.

Yeah I can see MON beating Juventus, Chelsea, Milan, Manchester United, Chelsea, PSV, Barcelona, Chelsea, Inter, and Arsenal in the space of three fucking tournaments.

[LFCfan4Life]

Yeah I can see MON beating Juventus, Chelsea, Milan, Manchester United, Chelsea, PSV, Barcelona, Chelsea, Inter, and Arsenal in the space of three fucking tournaments.

MON wont even win the uefa cup

[WelshMike]

Something that might be really telling is what Babel said about a year ago on Rafa. I can't find the article, it was a while back. The essence of what he said was that Rafa teaches him what to do in terms of defending, tells him what he wants on the pitch in his own half, but gives him absolutely no instruction or advice on how to attack.

I'm sure this is a bit of exaggeration as far as the balance between attacking and defending goes, but it seems to me that Rafa has a better understanding of how to defend than how to score goals. There is little evidence that he has the ability to improve attacking players once he's bought them. Torres and Gerrard are really our only two attacking players of significant note, and both were already world-class when Rafa first got to use them. Others like Pennant, Gonzalez, Keane, Babel, Cisse, Baros etc., Rafa has not improved their ability and their performances were often poor.

When you look at our defense it is the opposite. Rafa has a much better record with buying defenders and getting the best out of them. Carragher became regonized as truly world class after Rafa arrived. Hyypia had many incredible performances for us since Rafa's arrival. Agger and Skrtel also demonstrated that Rafa has much more ability at spotting hidden, inexpensive defensive talent than he does with attacking talent. (Of course there have been a couple duds, the main one being Paletta.)

For all these reasons, I have a hard time arguing with people when they say Rafa is a defensive coach. It's not that he intends to just defend, but he is better at getting his team to defend than to attack. Our inability to break down inferior teams putting 11 men behind the ball has demonstrated this.

I have to agree. I'm not having a go for the sake of it or anything like that but that's also the reason that it's no coincidence that we've often talked about missed chances, strikers losing form/not being able to find the net/suddenly hitting a poor patch once coming here (Bellamy in particular compared to his season at Blackburn, Morientes, Baros, Kuyt, Babel, Keane).

There have been plenty of times where we've just not been able to find the net and accused other teams of parking the bus or their keeper has had 'one of those days' but it happens far too often for us to just be unlucky when it comes to opposition goalkeepers.

I like to defend Rafa but we really do make excuses for it when it comes to this. We'll say 'Stoke are really good at defending' but the week after an average side will stick three past them. We convince ourselves that it was an outstanding keeper display but that doesn't happen ten times a season - it just doesn't. We have a go at our strikers but Benjani, Carlton Cole and Michael Chopra are sticking them in for fun elsewhere that day. Then we'll sell the striker and they'll magically start scoring again.

It's even in the way we attack (or lack of it). Against ten-men Arsenal we were atrocious. We can't/don't break teams down because we don't know how. We won't take risks - we don't want to risk losing the ball so we play from side-to-side at the back (and then lose it needlessly), we don't vary our play, we don't try to turn or take players on, we won't get it wide and whip crosses into the box and most of all we play with zero urgency (my biggest complaint about Rafa probably) and then complain that the opposition aren't playing fair. For the example when it comes to urgency look at the Arsenal/Hull games - losing and we're shitting it so we start playing better, then get on level terms and get scared again. We undoubtedly play to Rafa's philosophy of not losing rather than winning (reflected in our performances and results).

It even shows in the way Rafa has converted Babel and Kuyt into more defensive players in more defensive position. Kuyt was about goals in Holland and I remember how explosive he looked in his debut game (all of 30 minutes admittedly) against West Ham. He linked up with Gerrard brilliantly and kept going for goal. He looks like every attacking instinct and talent - not to mention his confidence - has been drained out of him. He really does look like a different player now.

[buchigo!]

from the front page of soccernet:

"And Aston Villa's fine run continued as they drew level with Liverpool courtesy of Emile Heskey's debut goal at Portsmouth."

damn. we even draw games we're not playing.

[tony]

Really fancy West Brom to get something on Tuesday night

oops

[Franck Le Poof]

Wasn't around, how did Pennant do?

[LFC when it suits]

Finally, I wouldn't say that MON has done in three years what Rafa has done in five. Not yet. A team can overachieve for a season. Everton did it when they came fourth. The following season? Not even close. It remains to be seen if Villa are the real deal.

 

The difference is tha Villa are still in the title race and can still win the league. Everton were miles of the pace.

[shelovesyou]

I have to agree. I'm not having a go for the sake of it or anything like that but that's also the reason that it's no coincidence that we've often talked about missed chances, strikers losing form/not being able to find the net/suddenly hitting a poor patch once coming here (Bellamy in particular compared to his season at Blackburn, Morientes, Baros, Kuyt, Babel, Keane).

There have been plenty of times where we've just not been able to find the net and accused other teams of parking the bus or their keeper has had 'one of those days' but it happens far too often for us to just be unlucky when it comes to opposition goalkeepers.

I like to defend Rafa but we really do make excuses for it when it comes to this. We'll say 'Stoke are really good at defending' but the week after an average side will stick three past them. We convince ourselves that it was an outstanding keeper display but that doesn't happen ten times a season - it just doesn't. We have a go at our strikers but Benjani, Carlton Cole and Michael Chopra are sticking them in for fun elsewhere that day. Then we'll sell the striker and they'll magically start scoring again.

It's even in the way we attack (or lack of it). Against ten-men Arsenal we were atrocious. We can't/don't break teams down because we don't know how. We won't take risks - we don't want to risk losing the ball so we play from side-to-side at the back (and then lose it needlessly), we don't vary our play, we don't try to turn or take players on, we won't get it wide and whip crosses into the box and most of all we play with zero urgency (my biggest complaint about Rafa probably) and then complain that the opposition aren't playing fair. For the example when it comes to urgency look at the Arsenal/Hull games - losing and we're shitting it so we start playing better, then get on level terms and get scared again. We undoubtedly play to Rafa's philosophy of not losing rather than winning (reflected in our performances and results).

It even shows in the way Rafa has converted Babel and Kuyt into more defensive players in more defensive position. Kuyt was about goals in Holland and I remember how explosive he looked in his debut game (all of 30 minutes admittedly) against West Ham. He linked up with Gerrard brilliantly and kept going for goal. He looks like every attacking instinct and talent - not to mention his confidence - has been drained out of him. He really does look like a different player now.

spot on.

[Juan Loco]

Mancs have had 11 clean sheets in a row. That's why, alongside our failure to find our highest gear, they are in pole position.

Don't point that out Stussy. It's in attack we're lacking, attack. God forbid that anyone point out that they and Chelsea have had a far better defence than us over the last few years, and do again this season. Their defenders are better players, offer more going forward and concede less than ours, despite our back four regularly being filled with players who can do nothing but defend.

This thread is a bit miserable. Some quality posts that I find it hard to disagree with, I just think it's a bit ridiculous that it's taken the Mancs walking through West Brom to trigger it. What did people expect? It's not in West Brom's DNA to make it awkward for them. They can't spoil games. Tonight hasn't really made me more miserable, I kind of expected it. It's the Middlesbrough, Sunderland and Bolton games that pissed on my chips. 1-0's, two with late goals, all without playing well.

[guest]

Villa are gonna win the league, yer know...

[steveeastend]

Something that might be really telling is what Babel said about a year ago on Rafa. I can't find the article, it was a while back. The essence of what he said was that Rafa teaches him what to do in terms of defending, tells him what he wants on the pitch in his own half, but gives him absolutely no instruction or advice on how to attack.

I'm sure this is a bit of exaggeration as far as the balance between attacking and defending goes, but it seems to me that Rafa has a better understanding of how to defend than how to score goals. There is little evidence that he has the ability to improve attacking players once he's bought them. Torres and Gerrard are really our only two attacking players of significant note, and both were already world-class when Rafa first got to use them. Others like Pennant, Gonzalez, Keane, Babel, Cisse, Baros etc., Rafa has not improved their ability and their performances were often poor.

When you look at our defense it is the opposite. Rafa has a much better record with buying defenders and getting the best out of them. Carragher became regonized as truly world class after Rafa arrived. Hyypia had many incredible performances for us since Rafa's arrival. Agger and Skrtel also demonstrated that Rafa has much more ability at spotting hidden, inexpensive defensive talent than he does with attacking talent. (Of course there have been a couple duds, the main one being Paletta.)

For all these reasons, I have a hard time arguing with people when they say Rafa is a defensive coach. It's not that he intends to just defend, but he is better at getting his team to defend than to attack. Our inability to break down inferior teams putting 11 men behind the ball has demonstrated this.

Good post. Good read.