Topic: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD - 2023 (FSG posts = get muted)

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

There's no way of knowing what caused Fabinho to drop off so much, but he really did play that much more than you'd expect from a first choice player at a top club and he want exactly a regular at International level either.

This.

What happened to Fabinho was actually pretty inconceivable. Top players should not drop off in the way he did at 29, regardless of how much they've been asked to play.

Given how quickly he fucked off to Saudi, I'd imagine it was as much mental as it was physical.

[PeterTheRed ...]

You can easily. There's loads of games in a season, injuries and suspensions happen, most players can't play every game. Bajcetic will be first choice back up for Trent too. The way we want to press means i feel we need a good number of options in there.

We already have 7 senior midfielders under contract for next season. For 3 midfield spots. Just be honest and say that you want Wataru replaced by some more exotic and more expensive midfielder, and we can be done with this boring debate ...

[AmanShah21]

Bajcetic can cover for Trent just like we saw in midweek and Endo in my personal opinion was a stop gap despite what Klopp said at the time. He will be emergency back up and play in league cup games etc. With that in mind and Thiago going as well there's more than enough room for a no.6. And not hurt others getting minutes with rotation and injuries. It might well be the case we don't sign another but I think there's a high chance we will.

Milner - Endo
Thiago - Gravenberch
Henderson - Szoboszlai
Keita/Ox - Mac Allister
Fabinho - New DM

6 out and 5 in.

What about Jones who was injured most of last season? Keita+Ox+Jones' minutes last season equal minutes for one midfielder getting a decent run of games without playing every game and that midfielder is Jones himself.
Add to that you want Bajcetic to get more minutes than last season and Bobby Clark who should get minutes too. The state of our midfield last season with injuries made the situation such that we ended up with 10 of them in the squad. If we can limit the amount of injuries by rest and rotation, the depth is good right now. Elliott/Ryan/Baj/Thiago havent even started a league game till date. And Gakpo can play in midfield in a crunch.
I also think you are highly underestimating Endo. He'll finish games for us like Milner did but once he's up to speed, will also be a genuine starting option. He is a very very good player, not a stop gap. That Japanese team can express themselves because he is their anchor jn midfield and he is boss.

[clinical]

We already have 7 senior midfielders under contract for next season. For 3 midfield spots. Just be honest and say that you want Wataru replaced by some more exotic and more expensive midfielder, and we can be done with this boring debate ...

I've already said I think he's a stop gap for this season and then a Milner replacement. I don't want him shipped out.

[Fromola]

Sure, but is a DM more important than a LCB at this time?

We bid a British record fee for a DM in the summer.

Our captain is our LCB and there's Quansah as well who can play there (and Gomez). I do think a high quality 6 would massively help out the defence also. Ideally we'd have an extra option at the back but it's mainly to cover injuries. We obviously will need to rebuild the defence soon with the age of Van Dijk/Matip and Robbo as we can't sleepwalk into the same complacency as we had with the midfield. Part of that is replacing Fabinho though which we still haven't done.

City have Rodri, Arsenal have Rice, Spurs have Bissouma, Chelsea have Caicedo and Lavia, United have Casemiro and Amrabat. We're the anomaly. The difference is our firepower is as good or better than any but we give away too many chances and rely on Ali a lot who is a good substitute for not having a DM, but that's not by plan.

[PeterTheRed ...]

I've already said I think he's a stop gap for this season and then a Milner replacement. I don't want him shipped out.

So, you actually want:

Mac Allister
Szoboszlai
Jones
Gravenberch
Elliott
Bajcetic
Wataru

Plus another midfielder of starting quality, for 3 midfield spots?

Interesting ...

[Fromola]

If you end up carrying a midfielder too many for a season it's better than having less than needed. Then if you've got 1 or 2 who aren't getting the minutes they like then they can be sold on and help fund a new defender or forward.

We need to heavily rotate the midfield over 4 comps, having too many crocks and over 30s has stopped us doing that in recent seasons.

We ran Fabinho into the ground because we never had adequate cover. Some of those midfielders can also cover other positions.

Where I would agree is that it's hard to justify buying a 6 if you've got Bajcetic and Endo in the squad. If one of them is right back cover then maybe.

[Barefoot Doctor]

So, you actually want:

Mac Allister
Szoboszlai
Jones
Gravenberch
Elliott
Bajcetic
Wataru

Plus another midfielder of starting quality, for 3 midfield spots?

Interesting ...

We may need a bigger squad going forward, yeah. From next season the CL expands to eight group games, and there's also an additional knockout round for some teams. So to go all the way, you could be looking at an additional four games in the CL... off the back of the Euros... and we might be at the Club World Cup in 2025 too (between 3 and 6 additional games).

Having eight midfielders doesn't feel outlandish to me, especially if some are versatile and can cover elsewhere.

[Dave McCoy]

If we continue with this form I'd still like to see us add a CB in January. Maybe there is another DM out there that is flying under the radar but barring an injury crises we're well stocked until Thiago is off in the summer.

[PeterTheRed ...]

We may need a bigger squad going forward, yeah. From next season the CL expands to eight group games, and there's also an additional knockout round for some teams. So to go all the way, you could be looking at an additional four games in the CL... off the back of the Euros... and we might be at the Club World Cup in 2025 too (between 3 and 6 additional games).

Having eight midfielders doesn't feel outlandish to me, especially if some are versatile and can cover elsewhere.

How many of them you can select in a match day squad? Five, maybe six? What happens to the other two senior midfielders when no one is injured? They sit in the stands?

[Barefoot Doctor]

How many of them you can select in a match day squad? Five, maybe six? What happens to the other two senior midfielders when no one is injured? They sit in the stands?

Well yeah, thats exactly what would happen. Just like we have to leave senior players out now, if everyone is fit. Bajcetic wasn’t in the squad on Saturday, for example.

We have eight senior midfielders now, is it really outlandish to suggest we might add someone to replace Thiago when he goes?

[Bobinhood]

This.

What happened to Fabinho was actually pretty inconceivable. Top players should not drop off in the way he did at 29, regardless of how much they've been asked to play.

Given how quickly he fucked off to Saudi, I'd imagine it was as much mental as it was physical.

He was back close to his best in the last few games of the season. It was mostly mental for everybody imo. Fab mostly just didn't try very hard, frankly , after we started so poorly. He didn't down tools exactly but the brick walls were feeling pretty safe.

[PeterTheRed ...]

Well yeah, thats exactly what would happen. Just like we have to leave senior players out now, if everyone is fit. Bajcetic wasn’t in the squad on Saturday, for example.

We have eight senior midfielders now, is it really outlandish to suggest we might add someone to replace Thiago when he goes?

Well, that suggests the playing time of Elliott and Bajcetic will not increase. Maybe we should sell one of them, since they will be both sitting in the stands when the new 8th midfielder is signed ...

[RedG13]

Well, that suggests the playing time of Elliott and Bajcetic will not increase. Maybe we should sell one of them, since they will be both sitting in the stands when the new 8th midfielder is signed ...

How many total possible minutes(not including stoppage time) with the New CL format just for one position if a team went all the way in the all 4 competitions?

[WhereAngelsPlay]

How many of them you can select in a match day squad? Five, maybe six? What happens to the other two senior midfielders when no one is injured? They sit in the stands?

Yes mate, that is how match day squads work.

[PeterTheRed ...]

OK, lets do a little exercise. These are the total minutes of Man City's midfield (in all competitions) during their treble winning last season:

Rodri - 4,476
Gundogan - 3,856
De Bruyne - 3,684
B.Silva - 3,601
Foden - 2,660
Phillips - 593
Perrone - 20

They went through the entire season and won the treble with basically 5 midfielders. OK, I understand that their style of play is different, and that we probably need one or two more midfielders, but three more? I don't think so. It is time to concentrate on quality instead of quantity ...

[PeterTheRed ...]

Yes mate, that is how match day squads work.

And that is how players leave to a club where they actually play, instead of sitting in the stands ...

[newterp]

He was back close to his best in the last few games of the season. It was mostly mental for everybody imo. Fab mostly just didn't try very hard, frankly , after we started so poorly. He didn't down tools exactly but the brick walls were feeling pretty safe.

I don't think he was back to his best at all. We had a more flooded midfield with Trent joining it - but Fab was still being run by with regularity. He may have appeared better because the results were better - but the last 10 games we played were not the hardest stretch of our season.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Looks to me like Jones and Mac are duelling it out for the left midfield spot, Szobo, Elliott and Gravenberch for the right and Bajcetic, Thiago and Endo for the centre. Clark could get some cup minutes but he's realistically out on loan next year.

Considering some of those players can hypothetically move around like Mac's been doing lately, I can't see anyone coming in January and I wouldn't put money on it happening in the summer. Not unless Klopp sees Dom or Harvey as the long-term Salah replacement.

[Gooseberry Fool]

If you end up carrying a midfielder too many for a season it's better than having less than needed. Then if you've got 1 or 2 who aren't getting the minutes they like then they can be sold on and help fund a new defender or forward.

We need to heavily rotate the midfield over 4 comps, having too many crocks and over 30s has stopped us doing that in recent seasons.

We ran Fabinho into the ground because we never had adequate cover. Some of those midfielders can also cover other positions.

Where I would agree is that it's hard to justify buying a 6 if you've got Bajcetic and Endo in the squad. If one of them is right back cover then maybe.

And when you can’t sell them or they don’t want to leave because they’re under contract, you end up with Naby, Ox, Melo for an entire season, and you can’t add any more because that’s fiscally irresponsible …

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Melo was signed on a season long loan.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

And that is how players leave to a club where they actually play, instead of sitting in the stands ...

P!ayers are sat in stands all over the world.

Again that's how match day squads work.

[Bobinhood]

I don't think he was back to his best at all. We had a more flooded midfield with Trent joining it - but Fab was still being run by with regularity. He may have appeared better because the results were better - but the last 10 games we played were not the hardest stretch of our season.

Ok fine

he had one good game. cant remember exactly when it was.  won everything that day    Thought he was back.   

[xbugawugax]

P!ayers are sat in stands all over the world.

Again that's how match day squads work.

like a certain couple of of million dollar targets

just to throw a spanner into the works. would you guys be happy to get a ceceido or colwill if their situation doesn't improve and a firesale is going on? they do have some really good young players in their squad.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

like a certain couple of of million dollar targets

just to throw a spanner into the works. would you guys be happy to get a ceceido or colwill if their situation doesn't improve and a firesale is going on? they do have some really good young players in their squad.

I didn't want Cac when we bid and have never really watched Colwill.

[Knight]

Numbers don’t really matter. The issue is the balance. For the 6 we have Endo, who probably isn’t a starter, Bacjetic, who is an unknown quality in terms of his ceiling, Mac (judging by games played this season he needs to be included) who isn’t a natural in that position and Thiago, who’s never fit and is off at the end of the season. So if you want to improve your starting 11 right now the 6 is the most obvious position to do it.

[Fromola]

And when you can’t sell them or they don’t want to leave because they’re under contract, you end up with Naby, Ox, Melo for an entire season, and you can’t add any more because that’s fiscally irresponsible …

We were too soft with Ox. He should have been moved on. Keita was still valuable part of a squad that nearly won the lot in 2022. I don't know what happened in his last season but something was amiss from August. Melo was a panic buy to cover for an injury hit squad.

Lallana was also not a regular and didn't play as much as he'd want but contributed to a title winning squad.

[Fromola]

OK, lets do a little exercise. These are the total minutes of Man City's midfield (in all competitions) during their treble winning last season:

Rodri - 4,476
Gundogan - 3,856
De Bruyne - 3,684
B.Silva - 3,601
Foden - 2,660
Phillips - 593
Perrone - 20

They went through the entire season and won the treble with basically 5 midfielders. OK, I understand that their style of play is different, and that we probably need one or two more midfielders, but three more? I don't think so. It is time to concentrate on quality instead of quantity ...

They keep these players fit is key, at least in previous seasons. We haven't done that.

Rodri not been there long and Gundogan moved on as Guardiola keeps things fresh as like Klopp he's very demanding and players can burn out after a while. It helps that they just dominate the ball in every game though and control the match and tend to get games won quicker or see games out. Our games are more chaotic which can be physically and mentally draining.

Put Rodri in our team instead of theirs and we'd be a better side than them. It's where we can really upgrade.

[PeterTheRed ...]

They keep these players fit is key, at least in previous seasons. We haven't done that.

Rodri not been there long and Gundogan moved on as Guardiola keeps things fresh as like Klopp he's very demanding and players can burn out after a while. It helps that they just dominate the ball in every game though and control the match and tend to get games won quicker or see games out. Our games are more chaotic which can be physically and mentally draining.

Put Rodri in our team instead of theirs and we'd be a better side than them. It's where we can really upgrade.

Well, there are not many players of Rodri's quality level out there, and Man City are certainly not selling him to us. Even Caicedo is not the lone defensive midfielder type like Rodri. He has always played in a double pivot. Rice maybe could have performed the role for us at the desired level, even though Arsenal are not looking very impressive with him in the lone defensive midfielder role at the moment.

So, instead of debating about this hypothetical scenario where we can sign Rodri or peak Fabinho, maybe we should give a chance to Jurgen and the midfielders we already have to show what they can do ...

[WhereAngelsPlay]

You just made the argument for shutting your thread Peter.

[xbugawugax]

Well, there are not many players of Rodri's quality level out there, and Man City are certainly not selling him to us. Even Caicedo is not the lone defensive midfielder type like Rodri. He has always played in a double pivot. Rice maybe could have performed the role for us at the desired level, even though Arsenal are not looking very impressive with him in the lone defensive midfielder role at the moment.

So, instead of debating about this hypothetical scenario where we can sign Rodri or peak Fabinho, maybe we should give a chance to Jurgen and the midfielders we already have to show what they can do ...

where is the fun in that? no heat maps. no stats. no obscure young high scoring false inverted 9 right winger tipped as next salah...

[Barefoot Doctor]

Well, that suggests the playing time of Elliott and Bajcetic will not increase. Maybe we should sell one of them, since they will be both sitting in the stands when the new 8th midfielder is signed ...

I do get the argument Peter. Hopefully our new crop of midfielders are much more durable than some of their predecessors, and we can do better with fewer numbers. But is it hard to imagine that Klopp, who has had 8 or 9 midfielders at his disposal since 18/19 - including this season! - might not want to roll into the 24/25 season with 7 midfielders when he considers the additional stress there will be on his squad compared to this season?

Firstly, it's both the Euros and the Copa America next summer, meaning that many of our players will have a reduced pre-season and will be coming back fatigued. We then have to contend with an inflated fixture list.

We've mentioned the two extra games every CL side will have to play (with the change to eight group games) but there's also an additional knockout round should you finish between 9th and 24th in the Group stage. You'd expect we finish higher, but hardly impossible we land in there if circumstances go against us. So there's a further two matches, on top of the extra two in the Group. And if we end up at the Club World Cup at the end of the 24/25 season, that adds a guaranteed three more games but potentially six or seven should we go all the way.

Think of the strain for the squad when we went for the quadruple... now potentially add 10 or 11 games to that. In that scenario, do you think Klopp might think having eight midfielders is acceptable?

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

We were too soft with Ox. He should have been moved on. Keita was still valuable part of a squad that nearly won the lot in 2022. I don't know what happened in his last season but something was amiss from August. Melo was a panic buy to cover for an injury hit squad.

Lallana was also not a regular and didn't play as much as he'd want but contributed to a title winning squad.

Ox would have been moved on but he got injured in pre-season.

Rodri not been there long and Gundogan moved on as Guardiola keeps things fresh as like Klopp he's very demanding and players can burn out after a while.

They wanted to keep Gundogan but he didn't sign a new contract. You'd have been very critical of us if we let a player of his calibre leave on a free transfer, lets be honest!

[Suareznumber7]

Well, that suggests the playing time of Elliott and Bajcetic will not increase. Maybe we should sell one of them, since they will be both sitting in the stands when the new 8th midfielder is signed ...

I'm ok with replacing Thiago with a dedicated #6 when he goes but we should not go above the current number of midfielders.  Bajcetic is the one that would be impacted by replacing Thiago but he's still really young and probably not ready to be a consistent regular starter yet. 

[Suareznumber7]

Looks to me like Jones and Mac are duelling it out for the left midfield spot, Szobo, Elliott and Gravenberch for the right and Bajcetic, Thiago and Endo for the centre. Clark could get some cup minutes but he's realistically out on loan next year.

Considering some of those players can hypothetically move around like Mac's been doing lately, I can't see anyone coming in January and I wouldn't put money on it happening in the summer. Not unless Klopp sees Dom or Harvey as the long-term Salah replacement.

For this year at least, Mac and Thiago will likely be rotating as defensive midfielders with Jones and Gravenberch playing that left midfield spot and Szobo and Elliott on the right. Bajcetic will get time if/when we get injuries plus in cup/Europa games this year. 

[Schmidt]

A lot depends on how wedded we are to the inverted fullback approach. If we think it's a long term solution then we don't necessarily need someone capable of playing as a lone pivot, particularly if we think one of Jones/Gravenberch can be moulded into a deeper midfielder. Personally I think we will stick with it as it gets the best out of Trent but also it saves us from having to compete for players like Caicedo/Lavia/Ugarte, who seem to cost an absolute fortune right now.

What's still not clear to me is who we target defensively. There's pretty much an argument for every type of defensive signing except for orthodox fullbacks. The only thing I'm really sure of is that we'll sign someone who can play multiple positions, as I think our back four is pretty much set in stone when everyone is fit, and the system seems to demand comfort in multiple areas from most of our back line.

[clinical]

So, you actually want:

Mac Allister
Szoboszlai
Jones
Gravenberch
Elliott
Bajcetic
Wataru

Plus another midfielder of starting quality, for 3 midfield spots?

Interesting ...

Doesn't need to be starting quality. Say if a Lavia type was available now we should get them. Nothing wrong with having 8 midfielders (of which Endo, Elliott and Bajcetic can cover other positions too).

[tubby]

Numbers don’t really matter. The issue is the balance. For the 6 we have Endo, who probably isn’t a starter, Bacjetic, who is an unknown quality in terms of his ceiling, Mac (judging by games played this season he needs to be included) who isn’t a natural in that position and Thiago, who’s never fit and is off at the end of the season. So if you want to improve your starting 11 right now the 6 is the most obvious position to do it.

This is it for me.  We're top heavy in midfield, lots of players who are suited to the advanced 8 roles but we're kind of having to make do with the 6.  Hopefully Bajcetic can get himself back up to speed and make it his own.

[Nobby Re-serves last year’s mince pies the bad mingebag]

This is it for me.  We're top heavy in midfield, lots of players who are suited to the advanced 8 roles but we're kind of having to make do with the 6.  Hopefully Bajcetic can get himself back up to speed and make it his own.

Yep, in a nutshell. We're conceding chances through having a player at 6 who is not at the required level in that position. It's become one of the most key positions on a field in the past few years.

[killer-heels]

Yep, in a nutshell. We're conceding chances through having a player at 6 who is not at the required level in that position. It's become one of the most key positions on a field in the past few years.

To be fair thats not the main reason we are conceding chances. A good defensive player at 6 would of course help but thats not going to eliminate all chances. Its also important to remember that a midfield and attacking front six of Bobby, Salah, Mane, Henderson, Gini and Fabinho were all much stronger than Diaz, Salah, Nunez, Szoboszlai, Mac Allister and Jones when it came to the defensive side of the game certainly in the case of pressing when you talk about the attackers. Factor in as well that we had a prime Virgil.

As a side now we are much more expressive when it comes to our attacking play and whilst we do still have some effective pressers in the side like Jones, Gakpo and Jota, its still not as strong defensively as the 18-21 side. Thats fine because we are evolving into something new, but its important to remember that.