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Raaphael:
Disagree quite a bit with the critisism of Souness. A total exaggeration of what he said. He basically implied that he like the game of football to be a hard/tough game. He`s allowed to do that. You may not agree with him, but he is allowed to have that opinion. That he said "it`s a man`s game". Big deal. No one bat an eyelid when people talked about the "women`s game" during the summer. And even if it was "wrong", must everything create offense? It would never happen the other way around. I just think it`s very tabloid to make a big deal out of it.
Also hate the phrase "Toxic masculinity" like that`s something specific for men. Why is masculinity negative? It can be good. Why is the narrative now that "sensitivity" among men is the ideal? Not that it`s bad, but why does it have to apply to all men? Isn`t it a good thing that people can be different? Maybe it for a long time was so much of a stereotype that boys needed to be tough, that sensitivity was portayed as a weakness. But at the same time now, why can`t some people accept the "old-school" boy? Why is toughness suddenly almost portrayed as a negative(something that can`t be accepted) and sensitivity talked up all the time? Also, when do we ever hear "toxic femininity"? There`s so much talk now of white, middle age men being the ones in "power", that boys/men as a group are talked down all the time. How many are actually in power? The 5% elite?There are a lot of white, middle age men who aren`t privileged at all. Boys lose out in the education system. More men are in prison than women, more people are homeless, more men commit suicide. The list is long. When it comes to mental health- no, you don`t always have to be "tough", and live up to the cliche of what`s masculine, but if you are, why is that presented as something negative? For instance, sometimes it`s a good thing to do what the phrase "to man up" implies. Not always, but sometimes. Personally, there have been times when I`ve been down, where that hasn`t been what I`d want or need to hear. Other times, I`ve absolutely "needed" to hear it. Sometimes it’s useful to grow some balls.Usually in life, balance is key. Extremes, in my opinion, aren`t usually great, if it`s extreme macho behaviour or extreme sensitivity.
It seems to me that it`s ok to present Souness as a dinosaur, a middleage, white man whose opions are outdated. God forbid, "toxic masculinity". You`re very quick to throw shit in that direction. Why isn`t that offensive? Because Souness has money? Is in a position of power?It can`t be hurtful to hear that your opion doesn`t count because you`re privileged anyway? You`re old. Opinions outdated. You must be a sensitive, "progressive" male/female/nonbinary in your twenties/thirties to have opinons that are worthy and correct? Preferably on the left?
Also, Josh Sexton-referring to that type of talk as something that «sets back so many things»From which perspective? It implies that your perspective is the right one. Maybe it’s a setback in society that everyone is offended by absolutely everything. Maybe that’s the real setback. Maybe it’s a setback that sometimes people go too soft in certain situastions.We have a generation where a lot(not everybody) of footballers are the most self-centered, narcissistic, probably spoilt people I can think of(Pogba as an example). To say that the likes of Souness and Keane represents a type of character that isn’t moving with the times-well, maybe there’s a need for those people as well. On a side note, more than ever it seems to me that we live in a time where the environment is supposed to adapt to the individual and not the other way around. By that, I don’t mean that you shouldn’t care about what you do around individuals, but individuality has probably never been stronger than it is now.
And no, Adam Smith- I don`t think it`s as simple as "being willing to learn" if you disagree with something. In many arguments that’s such a condescending expression when I hear it in debates.«Are you willing to learn?» Just because a person is offended doesn`t mean he or she is in the right in every situation. "Being willing to learn" implies that it`s the one part who is definitely in the right(those who are going to "teach" others) and the other is in the wrong. Where`s the tolerance in that? "I`m right, listen to me. «Learn from me». If not, you`re a bellend". Wow, tolerance. Tolerance is not to agree with someone who already has the same opinion as you. Tolerance is to accept that people have another opinion than you. Doesn`t mean that you have to agree with them. That works both ways. While I think it`s obvious that some people are intolerant, I also think that some of those who seem to look at themselves as speakers for tolerance are sone of the less tolerant people there are(well, they are tolerant when people agree with them. If you have the RIGHt opinion.If not, if someone has another perspective they call them names and label them).
I`m not saying that can`t be the case, but when is that the case every time someone is offended? Maybe some times those who are offended are in the wrong and need to get a grip of the "importance" of what they`re offended about. Sometimes it`s just narcissism. I don`t think it is as simple as- someone is offended- bow down to them and change. Forcing opinions on people is never a good idea. If the argument is good enough however, people may change their opinion.
Kenny's Jacket:
--- Quote from: Raaphael on August 17, 2022, 05:24:22 pm ---Disagree quite a bit with the critisism of Souness. A total exaggeration of what he said. He basically implied that he like the game of football to be a hard/tough game. He`s allowed to do that. You may not agree with him, but he is allowed to have that opinion. That he said "it`s a man`s game". Big deal. No one bat an eyelid when people talked about the "women`s game" during the summer. And even if it was "wrong", must everything create offense? It would never happen the other way around.
Also hate the phrase "Toxic masculinity" like that`s something specific for men. When do we ever hear "toxic femininity"? There`s so much talk now of white, middle age men being the ones in "power", that boys/men as a group are talked down all the time. There are a lot of white, middle age men who aren`t privileged at all. Boys lose out in the education system. More men are in prison than women, more people are homeless, more men commit suicide. The list is long.
And no, Adam Smith- I don`t think it`s as simple as "being willing to learn" if you disagree with something. Just because a person is offended doesn`t mean he or she is in the right in every situation. "Being willing to learn" implies that it`s the one part who is definitely in the right(those who are going to "teach" others) and the other is in the wrong. Where`s the tolerance in that? "I`m right, listen to me. If not, you`re a bellend". Wow, tolerance.
I`m not saying that can`t be the case, but when is that the case every time someone is offended? Maybe some times those who are offended are in the wrong.
--- End quote ---
I agree Souness has said nothing wrong. Im also not sure why England winning the Euros alters that.
What show have they discussed it on?
Raaphael:
The AFQ Football one.
TepidT2O:
The thing about Souness, is that what other footballer of his generation has spoken about gay rights or a attended pride marches?
And who else spoke out so clearly against Zouma?
I tend to think he’s using a turn of phrase here… does he need to think about not using it, absolutely. But I’m far from convinced he’s a dinosaur
Kenny's Jacket:
--- Quote from: Raaphael on August 17, 2022, 06:38:27 pm ---The AFQ Football one.
--- End quote ---
Some absolutely awful opinions on the Souness question. I wonder if they actually saw the clip of Souness.
AFQ Football is normally one I really enjoy, I usually like Paula Murphy too but, its like she was answering a different question.
Oh well.
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