Author Topic: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©  (Read 74180 times)

Offline Enemy

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #320 on: February 2, 2012, 10:10:22 am »
If he had hunted in Germany / had the typical animal-mutilating childhood of a psychopath, rapid organ removal could be learnt. Once the skills have been honed on animals, the transferral of those skills to Ripper work is feasible. Especially if he has killed before to transfer the skills.

The surgical knowledge requirement has probably been overplayed.
I think it may have been overplayed.

Maybe this is a stupid, stupid question but how good were surgeons back then? I might have a warped view of them but just because they say he must have had great anatomical knowledge I don't necessarily believe them because I'm unsure as to how great their own knowledge was back then. It's not like he performed heart surgery, all he did was cut up some skin and take out some organs (some of which many of us here will know the location of I'm sure).
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Offline SP

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #321 on: February 2, 2012, 10:25:49 am »
I think it may have been overplayed.

Maybe this is a stupid, stupid question but how good were surgeons back then? I might have a warped view of them but just because they say he must have had great anatomical knowledge I don't necessarily believe them because I'm unsure as to how great their own knowledge was back then. It's not like he performed heart surgery, all he did was cut up some skin and take out some organs (some of which many of us here will know the location of I'm sure).

This was all pre-antibiotics, so there was no such thing as routine surgery. Lister's antiseptic techniques were just beginning to spread. There was always a major risk of infection and death. There were no blood transfusions at that time, so any blood loss ran the risk of the patient bleeding out. Anaesthetics were in use from the 1840's, so at the least the patient was not screaming, although muscle relaxants were not in use so the patient would have been twitching like 'Arry.

But they did dissect a lot of corpses. Gray's Anatomy was first published in 1858.


Offline Enemy

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #322 on: February 2, 2012, 11:11:14 am »
This was all pre-antibiotics, so there was no such thing as routine surgery. Lister's antiseptic techniques were just beginning to spread. There was always a major risk of infection and death. There were no blood transfusions at that time, so any blood loss ran the risk of the patient bleeding out. Anaesthetics were in use from the 1840's, so at the least the patient was not screaming, although muscle relaxants were not in use so the patient would have been twitching like 'Arry.

But they did dissect a lot of corpses. Gray's Anatomy was first published in 1858.
So maybe he just got a copy of Gray's Anatomy and studied up the parts he wanted to know? Maybe he used to an army medic or something back in Germany. Who knows.
Enemy, at that time, and now, I cant think of anything good to say about her. She's still being a c*nt

Offline MichaelA

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed
« Reply #323 on: February 2, 2012, 11:13:18 am »
There is an urban legend that Joseph Bell was consulted.

Also fictionally, there is a long history of consulting Holmes.

http://www.sherlockian.net/england/ripper.html

Just been reading about Joseph Bell, his old house is about 150yds from where I work, and he's buried about half a mile from my house.

I was going to post something equally puerile about Henry Jekyll being a suspect; but it's interesting that the notoriety of the Ripper case coincided with an upsurge in the 'detective' type novel. Conan Doyle and Stevenson are both Scots too.

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #324 on: February 2, 2012, 11:41:45 am »
In work at the min but ill spend some time reading this tonight.


Offline Sarah Deane

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #325 on: February 2, 2012, 01:31:09 pm »
I wondered about the last point. But you don't have to prove your age on a census. She could have been gilding the lily a bit.


Also, I don't think they were actually married. Common-law marriage was so, er, common, that it's very hard to keep track of people who take their fella's name but don't legally get married. There is no record of a marriage between these two people. Karl thinks "Annie"'s maiden name was Holland, and she IS traceable, up to a point - she was a barmaid living just half a mile from Herr Ripper, so it's obvious how they could have met. Her mother ran a pub or beer shop but this "Annie" disappears between 1881-1891. There's an Annie Holland who turns up in the 1891, who fits the geographical area and age, and who lives on her own, "by her own means" - highly unusual - and would fit with Herr Ripper's 1891 status as living in a boarding house with a dozen others, sans wife, but still listed as "married". All this points to a separation, but conspiracy theorists (including me) could go overtime on this. Without having to provide proof of anything when the Census Man comes calling, Ripper could easily say his wife was still alive, just not at home. What if he'd already done away with her? And the next "Annie" who pops up in 1901 is a completely different (and replacement) woman?

Online records only give so much, so obviously the full documents could clear up 90% of questions on this thread, but we all love a treasure hunt, right?

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #326 on: February 2, 2012, 01:37:37 pm »
Why did he stop after the 5th victim, which is unusual for serial killers?

If he did kill more then 5, does the link to the name Anne/Annie still exist within the wider pool of possible victims?

How common was the name Anne at the time?

How can the increasing age gap between Jack Ripper and his wife be explained? It goes from 12 years to 13 years to 19 years... Was it the same woman???

1. There's no evidence he did stop after the "official" 5th victim.
2. Kind of.
3. Extremely common.
4. One year either way on a Census would be normal. Censuses weren't taken on the exact same day every 10 years, so depends when your birthday falls. Also, not everyone would actually have known when their birthday was, or how old they were, especially in the poorer areas. They'd have to estimate. And some people would have deliberately lied, for numerous reasons. Although a valuable resource, Censuses, especially early ones, shouldn't be taken as documents of fact.

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #327 on: February 2, 2012, 01:40:42 pm »
Always had you down as a serial killer.

It's just that I've been stalked by a few so know the signs to look for....


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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #328 on: February 2, 2012, 01:49:08 pm »
Nothing against the obvious amount of hard work and research done by the OP, I just can't believe that no historians since the census's became available thought to search for a jack/john ripper. And that at the time, nobody questioned him on his name or thought it odd.


They probably did question him. They questioned thousands of people. There are still plenty of secret files that will never be opened for scrutiny, so who knows if there's a file on this guy?

Offline Lord Roger Hunt

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #329 on: February 2, 2012, 01:55:29 pm »
If he had hunted in Germany / had the typical animal-mutilating childhood of a psychopath, rapid organ removal could be learnt. Once the skills have been honed on animals, the transferral of those skills to Ripper work is feasible. Especially if he has killed before to transfer the skills.

The surgical knowledge requirement has probably been overplayed. 

Two expert opinions v conjecture.  If I was on the Jury, I know which way I'd go......
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Offline SP

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #330 on: February 2, 2012, 01:55:56 pm »
They probably did question him. They questioned thousands of people. There are still plenty of secret files that will never be opened for scrutiny, so who knows if there's a file on this guy?

Never?  I don't believe the government withholds stuff for more than 100 years. Historians are already looking forward to getting the dirt on the abdication in 2037.

Who is still holding secret files?

Offline Lord Roger Hunt

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #331 on: February 2, 2012, 01:58:33 pm »
It's just that I've been stalked by a few so know the signs to look for....



That has to be the most gob-smacking stop-dead-in-your tracks post in the history of RAWK!  Being stalked by one serial killer is bad enough but a few...?!!!   :shocked

Suggest that you change your perfume and/or start wearing a sack and bag over your head...! 

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Offline SP

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #332 on: February 2, 2012, 02:02:43 pm »
Two expert opinions v conjecture.  If I was on the Jury, I know which way I'd go......

If you were on the jury you would acquit all of the suspects. That is why the case is still unsolved.

Given the absence of real forensics at that time, the expert opinion must be tempered with caution. Their experts are a good deal less expert than modern experts. The whole line of reasoning requiring surgical / butchery expertise is circumstantial and cannot really rule out any suspects, given the paucity of surviving information about their lives.

Offline Mouth

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #333 on: February 2, 2012, 02:14:03 pm »
I've now been sucked into the whole Michael Barret-forged Maybrick Diary thing. His affadavit (see above) about how he and his wife set out to fool the world, is absolutely compelling stuff, it's got everything:

1. Really quite clever "Hoax Of The Century" premise
2. A femme fatale
3. A ruthless Svengali figure
4. The swindler being swindled
5. Death threats
6. "Experts" willing to lie on oath just to make a few grand
7. Sex-for-silence shenanigans

WHEN'S THE GODDAMN FILM COMING OUT!
When you have written it? ;)
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Crush your enemies. See dem driven before you. Hear d'lamentations of der vimmen.

Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #334 on: February 2, 2012, 02:14:42 pm »
Never?  I don't believe the government withholds stuff for more than 100 years. Historians are already looking forward to getting the dirt on the abdication in 2037.

Who is still holding secret files?

I'm not sure if Police records are covered by the 30 year rule as, with an admittedly quick skim, it seems to have some leeway for stuff to remain in umbra or just vanished with no one outside being any the wiser unless a cross reference to the missing document shows up in a released one.

See 2.6

But across central government as a whole, only five per cent of official documents are eventually transferred to The National Archives, following a sifting process by the departments which generated them. The remaining documents, which are deemed to be of no historical value, are destroyed according to agreed schedules and criteria. So while the holdings of The National Archives are voluminous, and are growing at an ever-expanding rate, they preserve for posterity only a tiny fraction of the official record.

Also 2.9

Moreover, some records were closed for even longer than 50 years, at the request of particular government departments, and with the approval of the Lord Chancellor, acting on the advice of his Advisory Council and applying an agreed set of criteria.5 This might be (for example), because they were still being used (and were thus retained by the originating department), or because they contained confidential information relating to national security or sensitive material concerning individuals who were still alive.
I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

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Offline Sarah Deane

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #335 on: February 2, 2012, 02:19:29 pm »
Never?  I don't believe the government withholds stuff for more than 100 years. Historians are already looking forward to getting the dirt on the abdication in 2037.

Who is still holding secret files?

Don't you think it's strange that, in 1988/9, there was never a big "show and tell" about everything that had been held back all that time? People seem to have been satisfied with the "Boss" letters and such stuff, but if you try and access or enquire about detailed police reports, suspect lists, and anything else that's supposed to be in the public domain, you'll find yourself running around in circles. I remember, years ago, mid-90s, trying to arrange an appointment with the National Archives to get a look at the list of suspects, which would have included dates of interview and transcripts of most of those interviews, but despite my genuine reason for wanting to take a look (I was helping a writer do research for a lecture tour), I was told the documents were not available for "casual perusal". What reason would they have for not wanting people to look at them?

All that happened in 1988, was that the Met/Government/Shadow People let out enough stuff to send the theorists off another fifty years of happy sleuthing, and they could breathe easy again. Chuck us a carrot, and we'll happily go munching. I have no doubt at all that there's a very big vault somewhere with stuff in, not just to do with this case, but many other "causes celebres", containing info that's just too sensitive to ever reveal, mainly because it will expose shortcomings in the investigations, corruption (inevitably), maybe high-profile  suspects and other 'touchy' information that could have come out inadvertently. We only ever know what we're told, and there's never, ever been such a thing as full disclosure, it's an impossible concept. The notion that a government would just hand over stuff after 100 years, because it's the legal thing to do, is naive. Since when has any government governed by the law?

My own opinion, is that JTR's identity was known at the time but, for whatever reason, it was kept secret. If he did stop killing at the end of 1888, I think it's because he died/was killed, but I think the press and the (higher) authorities were happy to let people think he was still about. The political and social climate of the time was volatile and fractious. With JTR caught or killed, attention would have returned to the real issues of poverty, immigration, unemployment etc that the government of the time was hopelessly failing in (no change there, then). Their collusion with the press over the whole JTR hysteria is well-documented, so it's not beyond the realms of possibility that they also conspired to keep the Bogeyman front page news for as long as possible, even after they knew there was no longer a threat.

Offline Mouth

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #336 on: February 2, 2012, 02:20:53 pm »
Never?  I don't believe the government withholds stuff for more than 100 years. Historians are already looking forward to getting the dirt on the abdication in 2037.

Who is still holding secret files?
If the Prince was at all a suspect and there is any mention of any kind of him in any official document, its never going to be released.

and/or start wearing a sack and bag over your head...! 
Funnily enough, thats what the serial killer stalkers thought as well.
"Paranoia is a very comforting state of mind. If you think they're out to get you, it means you think you matter"

Jurgen! What is best in life?

Crush your enemies. See dem driven before you. Hear d'lamentations of der vimmen.

Offline SP

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« Last Edit: February 2, 2012, 02:26:11 pm by Southern Pansy »

Offline Sarah Deane

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #338 on: February 2, 2012, 02:24:48 pm »
Being stalked by one serial killer is bad enough but a few...?!!!   :shocked


They just haven't found the bodies yet.

Did you know that, of all documented serial killers (read: those who have killed over 3 people with no discernible link between the victims), that over 90% are Ukrainian?

And there are probably 2 or 3 active in the UK at any one time. In the US, gazillion-uple that number.

Offline Lord Roger Hunt

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #339 on: February 2, 2012, 02:29:33 pm »
If you were on the jury you would acquit all of the suspects. That is why the case is still unsolved.

Given the absence of real forensics at that time, the expert opinion must be tempered with caution. Their experts are a good deal less expert than modern experts. The whole line of reasoning requiring surgical / butchery expertise is circumstantial and cannot really rule out any suspects, given the paucity of surviving information about their lives.

Yes, agreed but I was referring to the expert opinion point - not if someone was guilty or not.
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Offline Mouth

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #340 on: February 2, 2012, 02:30:06 pm »
It's just that I've been stalked by a few so know the signs to look for....
To be fair, having your own wikipedia page does make it a bit easier for   us  them.
"Paranoia is a very comforting state of mind. If you think they're out to get you, it means you think you matter"

Jurgen! What is best in life?

Crush your enemies. See dem driven before you. Hear d'lamentations of der vimmen.

Offline The Gulleysucker

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I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

Mutton Geoff (Obviously a real nice guy)

Offline Lord Roger Hunt

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #342 on: February 2, 2012, 02:35:04 pm »
They just haven't found the bodies yet.

Did you know that, of all documented serial killers (read: those who have killed over 3 people with no discernible link between the victims), that over 90% are Ukrainian?

And there are probably 2 or 3 active in the UK at any one time. In the US, gazillion-uple that number.

OMG!  Didn't know that!  My daughter's friends mate is living next door to someone who knows a Ukrainian!!!  :(  (...now on phone.....) 
From the Country of Liverpool

Offline Sarah Deane

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #343 on: February 2, 2012, 02:36:24 pm »
Looking further, does anyone know anything about this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8514000/Scotland-Yard-fights-to-keep-Jack-the-Ripper-files-secret.html


EDIT:

Still hidden:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2011/07/10/secret-files-on-jack-the-ripper-will-not-be-released-to-the-public-115875-23260328/

Marriott is often discredited as an 'amateur' glory hunter, but I'm not sure how anyone can call someone who dedicates their life to something, 'amateur'. He might be a bit of an eccentric - and who wouldn't be after getting so deep into something? - but I think you have to be, to have any chance of getting to the truth. Regardless of Marriott himself, you've just got to ask "what are they hiding?". Do they seriously think that today's informants are going to feel threatened by 123-year old files being opened on a case they couldn't give a shit about? A weaker excuse I'm yet to hear, although this quote made me laugh out loud...

“Look at one of the world’s best-known informants, Judas Iscariot. If someone could draw a bloodline from Judas Iscariot to a present day person then that person would face a risk, although I know that seems an extreme example,” the officer said"

I bet all the world's Iscariots are entering witness protection as we speak.

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #344 on: February 2, 2012, 02:38:15 pm »
OMG!  Didn't know that!  My daughter's friends mate is living next door to someone who knows a Ukrainian!!!  :(  (...now on phone.....) 

I think she's quite safe, as long as she's not actually in the Ukraine. The guy probably left home because he couldn't find an apartment with good drainage.

Offline SP

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #345 on: February 2, 2012, 02:38:21 pm »

Scotland Yard said living ­relatives of the ­suspects could be ­attacked.

The Windsors?  ;)

Even in the roughest part of London, you are not going to get the crap beaten out of you because your great great grandfather, who has been dead at least 50 years, and given the conditions at the time, possibly a century was once a grass. That argument is so weak, it just makes it look like the whole thing stinks. No doubt the original investigation was a shambolic mess by modern standards, but that is not really new news.

Offline Mouth

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #346 on: February 2, 2012, 02:38:31 pm »
I bet all the world's Iscariots are entering witness protection as we speak.
They changed their name to Owen.
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Crush your enemies. See dem driven before you. Hear d'lamentations of der vimmen.

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #347 on: February 2, 2012, 02:39:34 pm »
To be fair, having your own wikipedia page does make it a bit easier for   us  them.

Which was not written by me. Have you SEEN the amount of syntax errors? And it's woefully out of date.

Offline Mouth

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #348 on: February 2, 2012, 02:44:06 pm »
Which was not written by me. Have you SEEN the amount of syntax errors? And it's woefully out of date.
Heard everything now, blaming your stalkers for a bad wiki write up. :P
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Crush your enemies. See dem driven before you. Hear d'lamentations of der vimmen.

Offline Sarah Deane

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #349 on: February 2, 2012, 02:45:03 pm »
If it had been written correctly with all the apostrophes in the right places, I'd probably have asked them for a date.

Offline MichaelA

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #350 on: February 2, 2012, 02:47:20 pm »
Which was not written by me. Have you SEEN the amount of syntax errors? And it's woefully out of date.

If there is a fresh spate of killings then I believe I have fresh evidence for the suspect - self incriminating witness testimony:

Quote
there was only one other thing I ever wanted to do, and that was surgery. I am not squeamish, I hate faffing, blood is fine, but I hate big girls who can't stand the sight of anything nasty. I am fascinated by the machine we all inhabit and, because I don't have the patience to study and be a proper surgeon, perhaps I can pretend to be one, instead.

:wave

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #351 on: February 2, 2012, 02:49:46 pm »
I think she's quite safe, as long as she's not actually in the Ukraine. The guy probably left home because he couldn't find an apartment with good drainage.

Just put the phone down to her, you're right, he's been digging up the patio for the last few weeks because of a problem with his drains...'chicken remains got stuck' or something...?
From the Country of Liverpool

Offline Lord Roger Hunt

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #352 on: February 2, 2012, 02:50:35 pm »
If it had been written correctly, with all the apostrophes in the right places, I'd probably have asked them for a date.

Corrected for you....

:)
« Last Edit: February 2, 2012, 02:57:45 pm by Lord Roger Hunt »
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Offline scatman

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #353 on: February 2, 2012, 02:51:47 pm »
that scotland yard thing is very interesting, no doubt the John Ripper theory seems to hold some credence, but what is the real reason for those archived files to be kept hidden? Maybe it was a royal, maybe it may have even been a future king :O!
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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #354 on: February 2, 2012, 02:54:57 pm »
Even if they truly are worried about informants not coming forward anymore or descendants getting targetted...black out the names, problem solved.
Anyone else being strangely drawn to Dion Dublin's nipples?

Offline Sarah Deane

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #355 on: February 2, 2012, 02:56:52 pm »
Even if they truly are worried about informants not coming forward anymore or descendants getting targetted...black out the names, problem solved.

Exactly.

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #356 on: February 2, 2012, 02:58:08 pm »
If it had been written correctly with all the apostrophes in the right places, I'd probably have asked them for a date.
Didnt realise that punctuation and proper grammar were releated to sexual prowess, sadly this explains a lot of my problems.
"Paranoia is a very comforting state of mind. If you think they're out to get you, it means you think you matter"

Jurgen! What is best in life?

Crush your enemies. See dem driven before you. Hear d'lamentations of der vimmen.

Offline SP

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #357 on: February 2, 2012, 02:58:18 pm »
that scotland yard thing is very interesting, no doubt the John Ripper theory seems to hold some credence, but what is the real reason for those archived files to be kept hidden? Maybe it was a royal, maybe it may have even been a future king :O!

It won't be a royal. Anything that explosive would have been accidentally lost, or never written down in the first place.

Offline Lord Roger Hunt

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #358 on: February 2, 2012, 02:59:28 pm »
Even if they truly are worried about informants not coming forward anymore or descendants getting targetted...black out the names, problem solved.

Racist!
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Offline Sarah Deane

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #359 on: February 2, 2012, 02:59:59 pm »
If there is a fresh spate of killings then I believe I have fresh evidence for the suspect - self incriminating witness testimony:

:wave

Have no idea where they got that from (or when?), but I guess the game's well and truly up. It was me. It was all me.