Topic: Youth and Under 23 Thread

[Lovely Man]

Why wouldn't their flaws be obvious playing first team football out on loan?

Because it's not the PL.

EG. Lloyd Jones could hit the gym and work on heading balls 50 yards, and he'd find himself to be a very good League One defender.

But he'd feel like he stepped into another world if he came into the PL, and would discover other flaws in his game that he needs to work on.

[CraigDS]

Because it's not the PL.

EG. Lloyd Jones could hit the gym and work on heading balls 50 yards, and he'd find himself to be a very good League One defender.

But he'd feel like he stepped into another world if he came into the PL, and would discover other flaws in his game that he needs to work on.

Isn't that the whole point though?

They have flaws which could potentially see them sink if they played in the PL (unless they are an outstanding talent - which is rare) - so they work on the weaknesses which show at a lower level, then they'll be better players when they come to the PL and will hopefully push for more game time to allow them to further improve again.

It's all done in stages. There is no use in throwing players who aren't ready into the PL for a few minutes here and there.

[Chris~]

I would argue that Rossiter's experience the first team is a different beast to the time, and roles, enjoyed by pace-merchants Ibe and Gomez.

Think that's the first time I've seen Gomez described as a pace merchant.

[plura]

Think that's the first time I've seen Gomez described as a pace merchant.

Not saying he's that, but how much and for how long time have you seen descriptions of Gomez? Besides these past 1-2months, well can it be that much?

[Mr Mingebag Squid]

On the flipside, isn't it a bit dodgy for a young player to get used to playing no matter how he performs in training or in games? Moreover, these loan moves should serve as a good test of a young players ability to cut it at a higher level. If Kent had ended up on the bench at a Championship club, it would maybe tell us about his overall potential.

I did think this as I posted. I guess you'd want them to get the minutes to try and prove their worth, almost like an initial month with as much game time as possible - then review - if player form is poor, you give the loaning team a bit more Carte Blanche to do as they deem fit and encourage the player to improve to warrant a place.

Worst thing would to do would be loaning the kid to a team where he gets 5 minutes here and there and no real time to develop confidence and force his way in, and spends his time not really doing anything.

Probably never could happen dictating to other teams like this unless they were true feeder teams.

[Chris~]

Not saying he's that, but how much and for how long time have you seen descriptions of Gomez? Besides these past 1-2months, well can it be that much?

Is there any way to answer that without it coming across like 'I liked them before they were cool'

[Mr Mingebag Squid]

Because it's not the PL.

EG. Lloyd Jones could hit the gym and work on heading balls 50 yards, and he'd find himself to be a very good League One defender.

But he'd feel like he stepped into another world if he came into the PL, and would discover other flaws in his game that he needs to work on.

Thing is, you've assumed there that League One teams lump the ball. Yes, you'll get the odd team that does this - but think you'll be surprised by how many teams like to get the ball down and play.

I'd rather a defender earn his craft against a wily old pro in the lower leagues and see how he deals with that first - if you can't handle a Kevin Phillips, Jamie Cureton, Akinfenwa style player - then you're not really going to get much luck against a Drogba or Sanchez.

Playing lower down the leagues exposes younger players to challenges they wouldn't necessarily face in the PL - and by going on loan, you'd want them to make mistakes and learn from them.

[lfcmason]

Coventry have scored the most goals in England so far so I fail to see how it's a bad move for Kent. Good experienced manager in Tony Mowbray too.

[jdpapa3]

On the flipside, isn't it a bit dodgy for a young player to get used to playing no matter how he performs in training or in games? Moreover, these loan moves should serve as a good test of a young players ability to cut it at a higher level. If Kent had ended up on the bench at a Championship club, it would maybe tell us about his overall potential.

Every situation has its own unique circumstances, but clubs definitely treat loan players differently than they do their own. Maybe Ibe's loan terms were a big part of him getting back into the team after a dip in form. If a club just wants one of ours to make numbers for emergency depth, then they won't be interested in doing these types of agreements. It's a way of ensuring that the club actually likes the player.

[Fromola]

Agreed. As poor as the U21 league is, there's no point sending a kid to go sit on another teams bench, or worse, turn out for their U21 team.

If a prospective team can offer at least 45 mins a game then that's what we should be after.

20 minutes off the bench in the Championship is worth more than 90 in the bubble of the under 21 league which is mostly a waste of time. Ojo last season at Wigan for example.

There's no point loaning a player who's not going to play at all (Sinclair for example at Wigan) but we need assurances from a manager that the player will get his chances, then it's up to the player.

 

[Lovely Man]

Thing is, you've assumed there that League One teams lump the ball. Yes, you'll get the odd team that does this - but think you'll be surprised by how many teams like to get the ball down and play.

I'd rather a defender earn his craft against a wily old pro in the lower leagues and see how he deals with that first - if you can't handle a Kevin Phillips, Jamie Cureton, Akinfenwa style player - then you're not really going to get much luck against a Drogba or Sanchez.

Playing lower down the leagues exposes younger players to challenges they wouldn't necessarily face in the PL - and by going on loan, you'd want them to make mistakes and learn from them.

I don't necessarily think that a defender who has a good game against Akinfenwa a couple of times a season is going to feel it's adequate practice to ensure they are ready to face even an average PL 'big man', say a Jon Walters, let alone a Giroud or Benteke.

How many times have we sent players off on loan to the lower leagues, and how many times have they come back as better players for it?

Ibe?  Even he has bad habits, and looks very raw for the PL, and yet seemed to have much success at Derby.

But let's not kid ourselves, the youth team aren't necessarily run to develop first team players for LFC, they're run in the main to produce good pro's that we can sell on to lower league clubs and keep the academy books looking healthy.

I dare say that had we loaned Flanno out to a lower league club that he may never have become the first team starter he was for us.  He just wouldn't have developed in the right way, learning the right things.

If you look at a lad like Clyne, he played four seasons for Palace in the Championship and then age 20 he moved to the PL and had 2 seasons playing regularly in the PL before really blossoming last year in his 3rd season.  That seems much more likely to be the natural progression for young players to develop.  Not cast them far and wide over the lower leagues for 3-6 months here and there, and then expect them back here as PL quality players.

[Fromola]

I don't necessarily think that a defender who has a good game against Akinfenwa a couple of times a season is going to feel it's adequate practice to ensure they are ready to face even an average PL 'big man', say a Jon Walters, let alone a Giroud or Benteke.

How many times have we sent players off on loan to the lower leagues, and how many times have they come back as better players for it?

Ibe?  Even he has bad habits, and looks very raw for the PL, and yet seemed to have much success at Derby.

Usually if our youth players are good enough for the first team they won't go on loan. Sterling the recent example and even Rossiter now.

The vast majority to come through aren't going to be good enough for us, but they'll find their level in the football league like Coady recently who's just moved on for a couple of million quid already. We need to be making a few quid on players who won't make it here. To do that they need first team games behind them because clubs want to know what level players are proven at before parting with money and giving decent contracts. "Proven at League One" means a lot more than "proven in the under 21 league" for a young player.

[Nessy76]

I don't necessarily think that a defender who has a good game against Akinfenwa a couple of times a season is going to feel it's adequate practice to ensure they are ready to face even an average PL 'big man', say a Jon Walters, let alone a Giroud or Benteke.

That's not the point, though. Is it better than playing in the toothless U21 league, which is the realistic alternative for these players? I think the level of competitive football you get in League One is far higher than people give credit for, and a million miles tougher than youth football.

These lads have pretty much outgrown the academy sides, but they aren't first team squad players yet. The purpose of these loans is to bridge that gap, and if it's a player's first time out on loan, the level of the club is less important that whether he is actually going to be involved in a genuine competitive match against professional adult players in front of thousands of passionate supporters.

If they can succeed at that level, it doesn't mean they are ready, but if they fail at that level, then they almost certainly never will be.

[Buck Pete]

Just popped up on my reminders.  Our lad Allan Rodrigues on loan at SJK  is 3/1 to score tonight against KuPS.  888 Sport.

Hopefully he will start.

This was from the bets thread.

Came on just after HT and scored.  Nice debut lad.

[C]

cracking bet Pete, even more promising the fact he came on 56' and scored 15 minutes later.

[C]

Not saying he's that, but how much and for how long time have you seen descriptions of Gomez? Besides these past 1-2months, well can it be that much?

He's had half a solid season in the championship and played at all England youth groups, so he's already at a good level before he turns 18. Has looked great since he has came into the side, what reason is their to doubt the kid? I think he is going to be a stalwart for the next decade plus for us.

The only game he has looked out of sorts was against West Ham and when you have absolute buffoonery going on beside you - it will knock your level down a peg or two.

[plura]

He's had half a solid season in the championship and played at all England youth groups, so he's already at a good level before he turns 18. Has looked great since he has came into the side, what reason is their to doubt the kid? I think he is going to be a stalwart for the next decade plus for us.

The only game he has looked out of sorts was against West Ham and when you have absolute buffoonery going on beside you - it will knock your level down a peg or two.

You completely misunderstood me. I don't doubt his abilities, nor saying he has to date no experience. What I commented on was Chris's long and extensive following of young Joe

As he himself already commented on.

[Buck Pete]

cracking bet Pete, even more promising the fact he came on 56' and scored 15 minutes later.

Forget the bet C.  888 refund non starter bets even if they come on and score. They are the only bookie that do Finnish league goalscorers

I didn't do it anyway as i wasn't even sure he was on the bench.

He should start next game. Great sign though for our young Brazilian.  That Finnish league isn't the best standard but the games are often very tight affairs so good for him to have scored.

[Chris~]

Playing Chelsea in the u21 cup at 7. On both sides channels so would be surprised if there aren't streams about later.

[RedSince86]

Playing Chelsea in the u21 cup at 7. On both sides channels so would be surprised if there aren't streams about later.

Chelsea to pick a team of 21-22 year old mercenaries no doubt.

[Aceldama]

Chelsea to pick a team of 21-22 year old mercenaries no doubt.

All the 21-22 year old mercenaries are out on loan. The U21 team is full of talented teenagers with forlorn hopes.

[rocco]

All the 21-22 year old mercenaries are out on loan. The U21 team is full of talented teenagers with forlorn hopes.

Arent our u21s mostly out on loan ?

[Aceldama]

Arent our u21s mostly out on loan ?

I think it's fair to say the very best prospects from both clubs won't be playing no Rossiter, Loftus-Cheek, Ojo, Solanke, ect but still some good players involved.

That starting XI is Firth, Randall, Whelan, Cleary, Brewitt, Chirivella, M Gomes, Brannagan, Sinclair, O’Hanlon, Dunn.

And Chelsea: Russell, Dabo, Aina, Conroy, Wright, Ali, Swift, Mitchell, Palmer, Musonda, Kiwomya

[Fordy]

I think it's fair to say the very best prospects from both clubs won't be playing no Rossiter, Loftus-Cheek, Ojo, Solanke, ect but still some good players involved.

That starting XI is Firth, Randall, Whelan, Cleary, Brewitt, Chirivella, M Gomes, Brannagan, Sinclair, O’Hanlon, Dunn.

And Chelsea: Russell, Dabo, Aina, Conroy, Wright, Ali, Swift, Mitchell, Palmer, Musonda, Kiwomya

Where's Teix?

[ScubaSteve]

anyone got any links for this?

[Fromola]

I think it's fair to say the very best prospects from both clubs won't be playing no Rossiter, Loftus-Cheek, Ojo, Solanke, ect but still some good players involved.

That starting XI is Firth, Randall, Whelan, Cleary, Brewitt, Chirivella, M Gomes, Brannagan, Sinclair, O’Hanlon, Dunn.

O'Hanlon, Randall, Cleary and Brannagan all turn 20 this season, so could really do with first team football at some point this year.

Whelan, Chirivella, Brewitt, Gomes and Sinclair all a year younger.

Jack Dunn about to turn 21 really needs to be out now getting proper games somewhere.

[Mr_Morosoph]

Anyone else just getting a black screen when trying to watch it on the official?

[ScubaSteve]

http://cricfree.tv/watch/live/chelsea-u21-vs-liverpool-u21-live-streaming

this is a decent stream but its Chelsea TV 

[RedSince86]

http://cricfree.tv/watch/live/chelsea-u21-vs-liverpool-u21-live-streaming

this is a decent stream but its Chelsea TV 

LFC tv stream.

http://www.thefeed2all.eu/watch/369399/1/watch-chelsea-vs-liverpool,-u21.html

[Mr_Morosoph]

Poor from Chirivella leading up to their goal. Bottled a challenge with Musonda who looks about 6 stone.

[ScubaSteve]

LFC tv stream.

http://www.thefeed2all.eu/watch/369399/1/watch-chelsea-vs-liverpool,-u21.html

thanks for that 

[RedSince86]

1-1

Clinical Sinclair.

[JustDan]

Thought this kicked off at half 7...

[CraigDS]

1-1

Clinical Sinclair.

It's Jerome mate.

[Chris~]

Ooof, great goal.

[JustDan]

Bloody hell, great goal. Quite the build up

[HopefulRed]

Just looked up their goalie because they said he was a coach on LFC TV.  So what is a a 28 year old coach doing in goal.  even if they've sent all their older goalies out on loan (am guessing), surely it's a waste to play a coach in goal?

[Chris~]

Just looked up their goalie because they said he was a coach on LFC TV.  So what is a a 28 year old coach doing in goal.  even if they've sent all their older goalies out on loan (am guessing), surely it's a waste to play a coach in goal?

Might be as last minute thing due to injuries/fitness.

[JustDan]

Well that's Dunn done...

[HopefulRed]

Well that's Dunn done...

That has really upset me.  I feel so sorry for him.  He is such a pocket rocket, and a scouser to boot but his hamstrings just look like the death of his potential career.