Topic: Terrorism in the UK - The Wider Context

[Magix]

Mate, you're convinced of this, and I've heard this plenty of times from other Muslims, but that's the atmosphere, the setting you've known always. I'm sure for every other religion, there was a point when it seemed complete adherence was non negotiable. Hell Hinduism is considered fairly flexible these days in a lot of countries (not all!) but there was a point in history when people killed each other en masse over their  chosen fairy superhero avatar hero saviour.

I believe puroresu_kid is saying that adherence to Islam in the west is already negotiable: some Muslims strictly follow, some less so, some are secular. Like how you can have a community of moderate, peaceful Muslims ostracising Anjem Choudary while not seeing Maajid Nawaz in the best light (and another group seeing the latter as an influential figure of the community). Religious participation is already secularised to a fair extent. What's near impossible to secularise, however, is the nature of Islam itself, which is a unique fusion of religion and politics.  Any iman who tries to separate the two, remove the concept and practice of sharia for instance, wouldn't be recognised by most communities.

[The North Bank]

Moderate does not mean peaceful
Secular does not mean peaceful
Strict does not mean terrorist.
The argument is good Muslim and bad Muslim, not secular and strict. I would say 99% of the suicide bombers in the west had the moderate secular Muslim upbringing of growing up in a European city. They have exactly the same understanding of Islam as non Muslims, which is very little.
People think they turned bad after they became devout extremists. You dont become a devout extreme Muslim over night, it takes many years of learning to understand the religion. You can become a terrorist over night though, they are not just bad Muslims by virtue of being bad people, but also for how little they know about Islam, the more they know, the less likely they are to be brainwashed, thats why the conversion from moderate to suicide bombers happens in lightning quick time. Pick on the ones who are only Muslim by name, give them an identity, a sense of worth and belonging, tell them they have been chosen for a higher purpose, all these teachings are against Islam, but they dont know better.
The more secular Islam is becoming, the more dangerous. Nothing more dangerous than a disaffected secular Muslim looking for a reason to exist.These are the ones that get recruited.  The extreme devout non moderate Muslim will shut himself away and try to pray his way out of trouble.
We cant deal with the problem because we dont understand it.

[Alan_X]

i know what you mean, but mate this is not life... i was in london 3 times over last two or three months, also after last terror attacks in Westminster...., people are in constant fear if something bangs or any noise, you can see it on their faces... i am always thinking i can die any time in London station where there are many hundrets of people, basically everywhere... i know nobody knows when there might be a similar thing...but that is not life... go to Poland, go to all eastern europe.... wherever you go, you feel safe... i don´t feel safe anymore in UK... and i don´t believe you if you do... this is not life... it is worried state of mind all the time...

we know the problem, we don´t know how to deal with it, but hard measures need to be done... to have peace in mind...

ok i am talking from my perspective... perhaps west europe people are getting used to this now... in your opinion things like this should be considered a norm in 21. century west europe? in my opinion it is all but normal to be in fear in Paris, London etc... anywhere in west europe...

What a load of shite. People may be a bit more jumpy since the Manchester attack but people don't 'live in fear'.

I live just outside London and will be in Central London again today. Yesterday I had meetings at major public buildings that would be prime targets for a terror outrage and traveled between them on the tube. People will be vigilant because they aren't stupid but you just get on with life.

[outlaw_nas]

most terrorist comes via Saudi  we need to stop bowing down to them(for money) and clamp down on them. sanctions etc

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[TepidT2O]

Damn right. As a mixed race person I am very wary of the police as I don't trust them.

As a Muslim I certainly don't trust them. The ridiculous ideas like Muslims spying on each other were just stupid.

What do people think happens in mosques? I swear some people actually think people plot terroism in mosques.

I've had friends mention to me how the security services have approached them asking them to work for them and be some kind of snitch.

It's not up to us to police. That's not our job.

As for the wider context the UK doesn't need to get involved in conflicts that have nothing to do with them.

So you're saying this attack was provoked by the U.K. government?

[ggcc14]

So you're saying this attack was provoked by the U.K. government?

I've been reading alot of that on Facebook, from people I know in Doha, Jordan, etc. riles me.

[The North Bank]

What a load of shite. People may be a bit more jumpy since the Manchester attack but people don't 'live in fear'.

I live just outside London and will be in Central London again today. Yesterday I had meetings at major public buildings that would be prime targets for a terror outrage and traveled between them on the tube. People will be vigilant because they aren't stupid but you just get on with life.

I do admire your attitude, I think its brilliant.
Braver than me though. I wont say Im in fear, but I dont feel as safe as I did a decade ago. Im still out and about in london every day, but im so aware of my surroundings now that it makes me a little nervous.
Bastards have got to me havent they.

[McrRed]

So you're saying this attack was provoked by the U.K. government?

Didn't get that at all from what he was saying.

Best response so far has been from The North Bank. Never thought I'd be saying that!

[TepidT2O]

Didn't get that at all from what he was saying.

Best response so far has been from The North Bank. Never thought I'd be saying that!

So why mention conflicts elsewhere.  Very odd.

[Purple Red]

So you're saying this attack was provoked by the U.K. government?

Beyond tired of this argument. Nobody forces you to murder children.

[The North Bank]

Didn't get that at all from what he was saying.

Best response so far has been from The North Bank. Never thought I'd be saying that!

Fucking Idiot!!

There are some fascinating discussions on here, in good times and bad. This is what the internet was meant to achieve. Brilliant platforms like this.
Sharing as much information and knowledge as possible makes us all better. We shouldnt turn on each other though, it gets trotted up a lot but this really is what the terrorists want.

[The North Bank]

Beyond tired of this argument. Nobody forces you to murder children.

Yeh, I do think the minute you strap a bomb to yourself, you no longer have a political cause, an identity, or any rights to be defined as a human being.

The foreign conflicts idea is a massive issue that needs to be tackled, for long term peace. Itll take a lot of education, because a lot of good people seem to think this is somehow a reason.

[Alan_X]

I do admire your attitude, I think its brilliant.
Braver than me though. I wont say Im in fear, but I dont feel as safe as I did a decade ago. Im still out and about in london every day, but im so aware of my surroundings now that it makes me a little nervous.
Bastards have got to me havent they.

I'm not saying I'm not wary of the possibilities but that's been true since the IRA bombing campaign in the seventies. Rationally the likelihood of being affected by a terrorist bomb in London is minute. It's far more rational to be worried that some little shite will stab me while he tries to nick my phone but that's another story. Or maybe that the government has cut back on the track maintenance and my train is going to crash...

Look at it the other way. Imagine you wanted to commit suicide. Doesn't matter why, but you decide your method of choice is to die in a terrorist attack in London. How likely is it that you could guarantee to get yourself killed if you were trying? It's vanishingly remote. You could choose a high profile target but you'd have to pick an exact date, an exact time and an exact position. You just couldn't guarantee it and the same probability goes for it happening unintentionally.

[The North Bank]

I'm not saying I'm not wary of the possibilities but that's been true since the IRA bombing campaign in the seventies. Rationally the likelihood of being affected by a terrorist bomb in London is minute. It's far more rational to be worried that some little shite will stab me while he tries to nick my phone but that's another story. Or maybe that the government has cut back on the track maintenance and my train is going to crash...

Look at it the other way. Imagine you wanted to commit suicide. Doesn't matter why, but you decide your method of choice is to die in a terrorist attack in London. How likely is it that you could guarantee to get yourself killed if you were trying? It's vanishingly remote. You could choose a high profile target but you'd have to pick an exact date, an exact time and an exact position. You just couldn't guarantee it and the same probability goes for it happening unintentionally.

You are right, there are far more common causes of danger in London than terrorism.

[Alan_X]

As for the wider context the UK doesn't need to get involved in conflicts that have nothing to do with them.

What do those conflicts have to do with a 22 year old from Manchester murdering teenagers at a pop concert?

[killer-heels]

This guy and his family travelled to Libya according to reports. Is there any special measures that people have to go through when travelling there or Syria?

[redmark]

most terrorist comes via Saudi  we need to stop bowing down to them(for money) and clamp down on them. sanctions etc

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I broadly agree. But perhaps western 'realpolitik' towards Saudi Arabia (and Israel, in a similar vein) is at least partly based on considering what the alternative might be. Bin Laden's objective was to overthrow the 'decadent' royal family and institute a hardline Islamist regime in Saudi. ISIS similarly would love to control Saudi oil - and Mecca.

It's perhaps easy to demand Saudi clean up its act; but it's a fragile society with deep undercurrents of extremism (hence the backing for terrorism). A despotic regime throwing it's weight around and sponsoring terrorism might not be the worst possible outcome - as we've seen in Iraq and Syria.

Of course, that's quite a defeatist attitude that does little for the victims within Saudi Arabia, or where it exercises it's regional power. But no one has a great track record of improving the situation through intervention, whether by sanctions or military force.

[redmark]

So why mention conflicts elsewhere.  Very odd.

They are part of the context and we shouldn't shy away from discussing them, without falling for the fallacy that they cause or justify terrorism. Which I don't believe he was.

The conflicts form part of the context in which extremists radicalise and justify their actions. At the very least, perhaps we could do better in explaining what we're doing and what our objectives are in some such conflicts, as a way of improving our own PR and undermining that of terrorist groups.

[Libertine]

i know what you mean, but mate this is not life... i was in london 3 times over last two or three months, also after last terror attacks in Westminster...., people are in constant fear if something bangs or any noise, you can see it on their faces... i am always thinking i can die any time in London station where there are many hundrets of people, basically everywhere... i know nobody knows when there might be a similar thing...but that is not life... go to Poland, go to all eastern europe.... wherever you go, you feel safe... i don´t feel safe anymore in UK... and i don´t believe you if you do... this is not life... it is worried state of mind all the time...

we know the problem, we don´t know how to deal with it, but hard measures need to be done... to have peace in mind...

Can I suggest you might be projecting your own feelings onto others and seeing something that's not there?

I travel into London 4 days a week (train and tube) and the only thing I feel is annoyance at the cost of it and irritation at people walking too slowly and getting in my way.


Worth pointing out as well that this is not a particularly dangerous time with regards to terrorism in western Europe - yes it's gotten a little worse in the last 2/3 years compared to the previous 20, but nothing compared to the 70s and 80s.

[puroresu_kid]

Snitch. think about what your saying here you think it's wrong to report someone whose given you good reason to believe maybe radicalized.
Vulnerable people are being radicalized by extremists. I imagine many Muslims are already giving the security forces information about being approached by extremists already which is probably one of the reasons these attacks are so rare.
If your scared of any repercussions over reporting someone then do it anonymously.

No of course if one knows something you report it to the police.  However I am talking about being offered a job to work for them as some kind of informer, that's what has been suggested and the people I know wouldn't do that simply as it is seen as spying.

[MrGrumpy]

What a load of shite. People may be a bit more jumpy since the Manchester attack but people don't 'live in fear'.

I live just outside London and will be in Central London again today. Yesterday I had meetings at major public buildings that would be prime targets for a terror outrage and traveled between them on the tube. People will be vigilant because they aren't stupid but you just get on with life.

Dam right!

I live in the suburbs of London and on my daily commute I walk past the memorial to the 7/7 bombings.

A pathetic petty criminal who believes that he will get to heaven if he blows up a bunch of kiddies is not going to stop me going about my life. My grandfather was a fireman in the London blitz and anything I have to deal with in the morning won't even compare to what he had to face.

[puroresu_kid]

So you're saying this attack was provoked by the U.K. government?

Not at all.  However lets just see how wishy washy UK policy is when it comes to conflicts in foreign lands.  This guy they say is of Libyan decent and its possible he went to Libya when the uprising was fought against Gadaffi or he knows people who went there to fight and come back.

Now it seems that those who went to Libya to fight could come back and the authorities seem to of had no issue with this as the UK supported this uprising yet those who go to Syria to fight against Assad cant come back or they are sent to prison.

Now which is it.  Can people go and fight in foreign lands in civil wars or can they not?

One will ask if this guy did go Libya to fight why he was allowed back and wasn't imprisoned would they not?

[killer-heels]

No of course if one knows something you report it to the police.  However I am talking about being offered a job to work for them as some kind of informer, that's what has been suggested and the people I know wouldn't do that simply as it is seen as spying.

That seems a perfectly sensible request by the police. I understand why people wouldn't do it,  but the request seems correct.

[LiamG]

I've learnt a lot about Islam and so on on through google searches and stuff but its's still a lot to get my head round

But from what i can gather, The "Extremists or radicaslists" will change the story of islam to suit their agenda? So basically brain washing muslims? but not with the truth

[killer-heels]

I've learnt a lot about Islam and so on on through google searches and stuff but its's still a lot to get my head round

But from what i can gather, The "Extremists or radicaslists" will change the story of islam to suit their agenda? So basically brain washing muslims? but not with the truth

What is the 'truth'? All of it is interpretation on made up stuff isn't?

[LiamG]

Example would be, To give out an iterperation in the bible that all non christians are evil and all christian women should wear dresses, But we all know that's not really in the bible, So same with islam? it's the extremists interoperation of it that is trying to brainwash muslims into joining them?

[Peabee]

What a load of shite. People may be a bit more jumpy since the Manchester attack but people don't 'live in fear'.

I live just outside London and will be in Central London again today. Yesterday I had meetings at major public buildings that would be prime targets for a terror outrage and traveled between them on the tube. People will be vigilant because they aren't stupid but you just get on with life.

Seconded.  Being vigilant isn't living in fear.  We are vigilant when we cross a busy road.  It's what helps keeps us safer against every risk we face.  We'd be idiots to walk around in ignorance of a threat, but it won't stop us living. 

[electricghost]

I've learnt a lot about Islam and so on on through google searches and stuff but its's still a lot to get my head round

But from what i can gather, The "Extremists or radicaslists" will change the story of islam to suit their agenda? So basically brain washing muslims? but not with the truth

It's not that they are changing Islam, they are cherry picking what they teach and emphasise, just like everybody else does within all religions.

An example, you often see at moments like this Muslim organisations trotting out the passage from the Koran that says,

“If anyone slays a person, it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people.”

This is typically what is taught to Muslims, and it is not a lie, it actually says that, but it's not the full truth either.

The full passage

"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land."

Now you can see that if you can emphasise and teach the murder and spreading mischief in the land part you now have a path for killing to be allowed.

It is all about what is taught, and how it is taught. There is no "correct" Islam just as there is no correct Christianity, it is what each individual makes of it. Islam can be a religion of peace, or it can be one of war, and there are legitimate scriptural paths to either.

[Trada]

Just saw a Tweet from the police in the South West saying there is no threat in the area and no army will be deployed here.

 ASPolice Mendip‏ @ASPMendip 17m17 minutes ago

There is currently no known threat to the South West & it's unlikely you will see military on our streets but this is under constant review.

[J_Kopite]

Example would be, To give out an iterperation in the bible that all non christians are evil and all christian women should wear dresses, But we all know that's not really in the bible, So same with islam? it's the extremists interoperation of it that is trying to brainwash muslims into joining them?

There's some utterly rancid stuff in the Quran, its not hard to find justification for attacks like this in there.

[MOZ]

There's some utterly rancid stuff in the Quran, its not hard to find justification for attacks like this in there.

You could say the same about the Bible.

[J_Kopite]

You could say the same about the Bible.

Tom Holland in the Standard:

“Fatwas were pronounced in the Ottoman period that prescribed exactly what Isis are doing — that the men should be killed and the women enslaved. Just as Nazis justified genocide in terms of racial theory, there are Islamic scholars who justify it in terms of what the Koran says.

Not to engage with that, to pretend that’s not an issue, is essentially to be complicit in genocide. After the Holocaust, Christians had to sit down and say ‘the way Christianity has portrayed the Jews as Christ killers fed into what happened’. There was an attempt to cleanse scriptures. There’s a need, by Muslims, to do the same with their scriptures. It’s been put to terrible uses.”

[Trada]

How long do people think the Election campaign will be suspended for?

I'm a very cynical when it comes to this government the longer it goes on the longer I think its the Tories trying to gerrymander the result. 

Usually it a case of the government saying we must not let them win and life should get back to normal quickly but not this time.

[Crosby Nick]

Another London based post to echo what's been said above. I don't think there's fear here. For all its other faults London is a resilient place and things return to normal very quickly. That normality includes everyone looking miserable/rude/grumpy on the tube and trains rather than fearful!

[killer-heels]

How long do people think the Election campaign will be suspended for?

I'm a very cynical when it comes to this government the longer it goes on the longer I think its the Tories trying to gerrymander the result. 

Usually it a case of the government saying we must not let them win and life should get back to normal quickly but not this time.

22 people have been killed, many of them kids. This is the worst attack since 2007. This is not a normal situation and you have to factor in the fact that we are at critical level.

People have said we should not use this to politicise this against things like immigration. Thus we should not use it against the Tories either.

Apparently it will start up again next week.

[Priest078]

How long do people think the Election campaign will be suspended for?

I'm a very cynical when it comes to this government the longer it goes on the longer I think its the Tories trying to gerrymander the result. 

Usually it a case of the government saying we must not let them win and life should get back to normal quickly but not this time.

I think they should call it off for now.

Anyone seen the cartoon in the Mail today ? Sick c*nts.

[RedForeverTT]

Now you can see that if you can emphasise and teach the murder and spreading mischief in the land part you now have a path for killing to be allowed.

It is all about what is taught, and how it is taught. There is no "correct" Islam just as there is no correct Christianity, it is what each individual makes of it. Islam can be a religion of peace, or it can be one of war, and there are legitimate scriptural paths to either.

Well pointed out because what constitute to rightful killing is debatable and open to interpretation by imams, and we have seen some really dodgy ones who went out to preach hate.

It is really sad because I have worked in Asia where there are larger Muslim population who just wanted to focus on making life better for their next generation and live in harmony and prosperity. It is therefore very strange that extremism in our society is more threatening than somewhere in Asia.

I think there are roles for both sides to play. We need to do more to help muslims integrate into the society and in schools but the muslims community will also need to help themselves by making an effort to integrate. Look around the schools and observe how some groups would isolate themselves. Could we do more to help them without making them feel threatened or uncomfortable?

On the harder hand, I do also think Muslims could do more to stand up against extremism. I don't care if it is called snitching but if it saves a life of an 8yo, then it must be the right thing to do.

[Alan_X]

How long do people think the Election campaign will be suspended for?

I'm a very cynical when it comes to this government the longer it goes on the longer I think its the Tories trying to gerrymander the result. 

Usually it a case of the government saying we must not let them win and life should get back to normal quickly but not this time.

Dave, seriously will you fuck of with this? There are 22 people dead including teenagers and an eight year old girl. Grow the fuck up and get away from whatever shite Facebook and Twitter feeds you read.

[Peabee]

How long do people think the Election campaign will be suspended for?

I'm a very cynical when it comes to this government the longer it goes on the longer I think its the Tories trying to gerrymander the result. 

Usually it a case of the government saying we must not let them win and life should get back to normal quickly but not this time.

Come on now.  22 people have been killed including children. It's hardly the time to be campaigning.   There's a lot of work to be done by the government in reaction to this too, so it would hardly be fair if other party leaders were free to go on the campaign trail while the PM is busy in meetings with intelligence services etc. 

Edit:  as pointed out below, as opposition leader and potential PM, Corbyn will be involved at some level,   

It's not the time to be playing politics or conspiracies, Trada.  I get the feeling you're heavily influenced by what you read on Twitter/FB.   If I had family/friends involved and I'd read your post, I'd be fuming.

[Lecter]

How long do people think the Election campaign will be suspended for?

I'm a very cynical when it comes to this government the longer it goes on the longer I think its the Tories trying to gerrymander the result. 

Usually it a case of the government saying we must not let them win and life should get back to normal quickly but not this time.

JTAC & MI5 set the levels of terrorist threat

The government follows their advice, would you want them to ignore that advice?

Equally Corbyn & May have both agreed to a cease in campaigning and I would imagine the opposition will be consulted and advised along the way

I'd imagine Corbyn would have to be aware of an awful lot of the goings on as he could end up being in government

Thats before you get round to the most important thing... respecting the 22 people who have died