Topic: Merseyrail - now with added 777

[timmit]

I hardly ever seen any guards on trains as it is though and I travel from Kirkby to Hunts Cross.

A good point, though for most of the last two years that was due to covid to be fair to them. I’ve definitely noticed more of a presence in the last couple of months though.

[timmit]

As said, the 777s don't have guard operating panels fitted, so guards can operate the doors, which is another ridiculous blunder, adding to the fallout over the use of guards once new 777s are in service, one of the reasons the 777s aren't in service yet.

The new trains were ordered based on the fact that the role was going, so there was no need for such panels. The original plan was to retain around 60 of the 220 staff but purely in a customer service role. I don’t think for one minute they thought that the guards would be able to win the battle to keep their role.

[gazzalfc]

Surely with the trains out of service they can use this time to train the drivers on the new trains? Or can they not do that yet?

Absolute shambles. The Echo have started to ask more pertinent questions as usually they seem scared of pissing off anyone unless they are a Tory.

The drivers haven't even set foot in a new train at all. They haven't even started using the simulator systems Stadler have built at the training facility.

Without a deal for the guards there is no deal for the drivers. Without a deal for the drivers they can't begin training to drive the trains. Without the training the new trains can't be run.

After all those strikes years ago Merseyrail have acknowledged the need for a safety critical guard on board each train. That was put to the RMT back in march with the conditions

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/members-updates/role-of-the-guard-and-introduction-of-doo--merseyrail040522/

Unfortunately that deal was rejected by their members in may

https://www.rmt.org.uk/about/ballot-results/role-of-the-guard-and-introduction-of-doo--merseyrail130522/

So that's back to the drawing board.

As for the Echo. The likes of Neil docking and Liam Thorpe are lazy journos. Can't be arsed doing some actual work

I have no skin in the game. I am just a commuter. I got those links from Google whilst on a beach in Spain . They can easily do the same and actually report it. But choose to play it friendly friendly with Rotherham and Joanne Anderson

[gazzalfc]

I see the occasional guard.

But I see more and more 'Bylaw Enforcement Officers' handing out fines for 'feet on the seats (including the middle stansion).

[timmit]

The drivers haven't even set foot in a new train at all. They haven't even started using the simulator systems Stadler have built at the training facility.

Without a deal for the guards there is no deal for the drivers. Without a deal for the drivers they can't begin training to drive the trains. Without the training the new trains can't be run.

After all those strikes years ago Merseyrail have acknowledged the need for a safety critical guard on board each train. That was put to the RMT back in march with the conditions

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/members-updates/role-of-the-guard-and-introduction-of-doo--merseyrail040522/

Unfortunately that deal was rejected by their members in may

https://www.rmt.org.uk/about/ballot-results/role-of-the-guard-and-introduction-of-doo--merseyrail130522/

So that's back to the drawing board.

As for the Echo. The likes of Neil docking and Liam Thorpe are lazy journos. Can't be arsed doing some actual work

I have no skin in the game. I am just a commuter. I got those links from Google whilst on a beach in Spain . They can easily do the same and actually report it. But choose to play it friendly friendly with Rotherham and Joanne Anderson

100% correct.

The issue now is why suddenly all these wheel bearings have started to fail. Very strange.

[Red Beret]

I think another issue was that many guards aspired to become drivers themselves, which makes a lot of sense when you consider how much time they spend on the trains.

I seem to recall part of the dispute centring on if their role is slashed to "customer service" then advancement becomes a lot harder. I can't recall many details though and it must mean there's a lot that guards do on the current trains beyond what the public see.

[courty61]

The drivers haven't even set foot in a new train at all. They haven't even started using the simulator systems Stadler have built at the training facility.

Without a deal for the guards there is no deal for the drivers. Without a deal for the drivers they can't begin training to drive the trains. Without the training the new trains can't be run.

After all those strikes years ago Merseyrail have acknowledged the need for a safety critical guard on board each train. That was put to the RMT back in march with the conditions

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/members-updates/role-of-the-guard-and-introduction-of-doo--merseyrail040522/

Unfortunately that deal was rejected by their members in may

https://www.rmt.org.uk/about/ballot-results/role-of-the-guard-and-introduction-of-doo--merseyrail130522/

So that's back to the drawing board.

As for the Echo. The likes of Neil docking and Liam Thorpe are lazy journos. Can't be arsed doing some actual work

I have no skin in the game. I am just a commuter. I got those links from Google whilst on a beach in Spain . They can easily do the same and actually report it. But choose to play it friendly friendly with Rotherham and Joanne Anderson

Cheers thanks. So annoying the whole thing

[Statto Red]

Even allowing for covid, the 777s, or at least some of them, should have been up & running by now, as usual the Unions & Management can't get agreement on role how the staff work on the new trains, so we have to put up with 507/08s which are failing at a rate of knots, it's an issue with wheel bearings at the moment but what fault is going to happen next.

 Regardless who is at fault, it's a shambles.

[Red Beret]

For anybody interested, the 507/8s are a sub-class of EMU that included the 313, 314 and 315s. In total, more than 750 units were produced, mostly in the 70s, but very few of them are still in use today (for example, 20 out of 64 units for the 313 are still active, according to Wikipedia).

Merseyrail has 31 507s and 25 508s, so as has been said, having 25 units out of service is a very big problem for the network. Spare parts aren't exactly rolling around in buckets for trains over 40 years old.

[rob1966]

It's been three fucking years. How long does it take to sort out the role of the person who walks up and down the train offering tickets and keeping an eye out for anti social behaviour?

In the old trains, the buttons were deliberately plated over by Merseyrail, presumably to stop dickheads trying to vandalize them. So yeah, they need guards to activate the doors.

On the new trains, the driver can do all that, but there's a case that people feel safer when there's a staff member patrolling the train, rather than have the driver monitor CCTV when they have other things to do. Like driving the train.

It's a sensible option, so there seems to be deadlock over what amounts to semantics.

Are Merseyrail still trying to go without guards? I haven't travelled on the network since 2005, so last time I did it was guards.

Got a train from Manchester to Lime Street for the Wolves game and that had a guard on, walking through checking tickets and checking the doors at stations, its ridiculous that anyone thinks they can be done away with, they have a far better view than any driver can have, regardless of CCTV.

[Red Beret]

Are Merseyrail still trying to go without guards? I haven't travelled on the network since 2005, so last time I did it was guards.

Got a train from Manchester to Lime Street for the Wolves game and that had a guard on, walking through checking tickets and checking the doors at stations, its ridiculous that anyone thinks they can be done away with, they have a far better view than any driver can have, regardless of CCTV.

You see the transport police regularly, and ticket checks; and the trains themselves still have a guard working the doors.

[gazzalfc]

The police don't check tickets. It's the 'bylaw enforcement Officers'.

The current guards don't check tickets because they need phones to be able to check the smart card railpasses. And after what happened a couple of months ago I doubt we'll see any merseyrail staff with phones again.

The arguement of merseyrail has always been long the lines of where Newcastle are with their metro or the London underground. They don't have guards and the driver controls the doors and the responsibility of closing them and leaving the station falls exclusively to them.

The arguement will soon become fully automated trains with no driver.

My opinion is that I don't believe that for Liverpool that is safe. You need a guard on the train to ensure passenger safety. Lot of fairly remote stations and long pieces of track where alot can go wrong (large sections of the Southport line and Wirral line around hooton).

Merseyrail have too much modernising to do before they even start talking about their guards and staff.

Ticketing, platform safety and security, large footfall stations not able to handle crowds like the grand national.

Fiddling punctuality figures with semi fast services to prevent their compensation system to kick in (only ever had 1 successful compensation claim come in) is a huge bugbear of mine

[rob1966]

Long time since I was on the Kirkby train, but I'm sure one of the stations going into town, maybe Sandhills, has a curved platform and the guard always had to walk a distance away from the train to see the full length when they were running a 6 car train? Gotta be safer having a pair of eyes rather than hoping CCTV sees everything.

You're right about the Southport line too, Hall Road to Hillside is a long run between stations and again Freshfield  to Ainsdale. Hillside was always dead quiet when I used to get the train into town from Southport 

[Red Beret]

Think is, London has all the money in the world to invest in its infrastructure, drive new tunnels and build new lines. Here, it can take 25 years just to build a new high level station on an existing line.

Hell, they only submitted planning permission to extend the Kirby line to Headbolt Lane 10 months ago. It's at most two kilometres up the line ffs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headbolt_Lane_railway_station

[rob1966]

Think is, London has all the money in the world to invest in its infrastructure, drive new tunnels and build new lines. Here, it can take 25 years just to build a new high level station on an existing line.

Hell, they only submitted planning permission to extend the Kirby line to Headbolt Lane 10 months ago. It's at most two kilometres up the line ffs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headbolt_Lane_railway_station

I grew up on Tower Hill so know that section well, we used to play on it as kids. Disgrace that they are taking so long to build the station, FFS, They started talking about the Trafford Centre Link on the metrolink in 2013 and it opened in 2020 and that runs from Cornbrook, past the Quays and right through Trafford Park, is about 7 stops and has a park and ride on the site of one of our units I used to work in.

[jillcwhomever]

Just as well I'm back cycling now, as the New Brighton line seems to be permanently affected by some issue and the trains from Monday are back to just two every hour.

[ToneLa]

As someone who has used Merseyrail absolutely tonnes

Pay the guards

Sort this out

Yes to guards.

The 30 min service is shite. Problems piling up.

[Red Beret]

As someone who has used Merseyrail absolutely tonnes

Pay the guards

Sort this out

Yes to guards.

The 30 min service is shite. Problems piling up.

It's a clever ploy by the union. They know they don't even have to strike anymore as the rolling stock is on its last legs. At some point,  Merseyrail will be so desperate to deploy the 777s, they'll give the guards whatever they want.

[ToneLa]

It's a clever ploy by the union. They know they don't even have to strike anymore as the rolling stock is on its last legs. At some point,  Merseyrail will be so desperate to deploy the 777s, they'll give the guards whatever they want.

Good for them

I want guards. I know people who also want guards. My friend who is a young mother wants guards.

I can't quite say having guards would make people use Merseyrail more, I don't think it's as easy to discern, but that's not a radical concept...

[Statto Red]

I grew up on Tower Hill so know that section well, we used to play on it as kids. Disgrace that they are taking so long to build the station, FFS, They started talking about the Trafford Centre Link on the metrolink in 2013 and it opened in 2020 and that runs from Cornbrook, past the Quays and right through Trafford Park, is about 7 stops and has a park and ride on the site of one of our units I used to work in.

Town Meadow between Moreton & Meols is another station that's been proposed since the 80s, i have a 1986 timetable book that says Town Meadow expected to open during the currency of the timetable, but not one foundation stone has yet been laid. That's a large area just beyond walking distance of Moreton, with only a couple of bus routes going by there.

[AndyMuller]

Would you look at that, only a 3 carriage for the 8:15 Kirkby train this morning.

[gazzalfc]

Had a nice chat with Liam Thorpe on twitter this afternoon.

The echo had no clue about the RMT issues with guards or the fact that driver training hasn't begun. Pointed him in the direction of the links and said he was going to raise it the RMT and Rotherham in the next few weeks.

Crazy how they have not been aware. But let's see if it helps

[rob1966]

Would you look at that, only a 3 carriage for the 8:15 Kirkby train this morning.

Packed out by Rice Lane?

[courty61]

Rotherham said testing delayed as back to a 15 minute timetable.

Timetable cut to 30 minutes bar the Southport line. No additional testing possible.

Huh??

Absolute joke of a city sometimes.

[AndyMuller]

Packed out by Rice Lane?

Packed out by Kirkby mate never mind the other stops 

[bradders1011]

Staying in New Brighton for the Elton gig on Friday - am I best getting the bus back into town with the trains like this?

[rob1966]

Packed out by Kirkby mate never mind the other stops 

Used to hate it when the platform was packed and a 3 car pulled in. At least you get a seat being at the start

[Millie]

Staying in New Brighton for the Elton gig on Friday - am I best getting the bus back into town with the trains like this?

Possibly - Think you get on by the big Morrisons Supermarket.

[Statto Red]

Staying in New Brighton for the Elton gig on Friday - am I best getting the bus back into town with the trains like this?

Yeah, best getting the bus, Arriva 432 is every 20 minutes in the evenings only takes 29 minutes New Brighton to Liverpool.

https://merseytravel.adidocdn.dev/timetables/Bus/432-24Jan21.pdf

[timmit]

Back to normal timetable on Monday

[AndyMuller]

Back to normal timetable on Monday

YES!!!

[Snail]

Not train-related but saw in the Echo earlier that the council are planning massive cuts / timetable changes to buses across the city later this year, with the areas most affected being, of course, north end.

There's only one bus I can get from ours in L5 to my work and it only runs every 40 minutes as it is. Can't wait.

[Red Beret]

Not train-related but saw in the Echo earlier that the council are planning massive cuts / timetable changes to buses across the city later this year, with the areas most affected being, of course, north end.

There's only one bus I can get from ours in L5 to my work and it only runs every 40 minutes as it is. Can't wait.

I'm assuming these are routes merseytravel subsidise? Otherwise they don't really have a say on what routes bus operators run?

[Statto Red]

I'm assuming these are routes merseytravel subsidise? Otherwise they don't really have a say on what routes bus operators run?

Yep, it'll be routes Merseytravel subsidise, maybe some commercials routes too, councils don't operate bus routes on Merseyside anyway, a lot of routes change to a summer holiday timetable with reduced frequencies in July anyway, then go back to normal in September, September is when i think the cuts will be made.

 

[gazzalfc]

Not train-related but saw in the Echo earlier that the council are planning massive cuts / timetable changes to buses across the city later this year, with the areas most affected being, of course, north end.

There's only one bus I can get from ours in L5 to my work and it only runs every 40 minutes as it is. Can't wait.

This will soon be exacerbated by the introduction of a £2 cap that bus companies will be able to charge for a single ticket on Merseyside.

As much as it makes it easier and cheaper to use the buses for commuters, if there is not enough profit (or no profit at all) then there is no incentive for bus companies to run the routes.

Makes a further case for brining bus routes back under council control and run public transport like they do in London.

[Statto Red]

This will soon be exacerbated by the introduction of a £2 cap that bus companies will be able to charge for a single ticket on Merseyside.

As much as it makes it easier and cheaper to use the buses for commuters, if there is not enough profit (or no profit at all) then there is no incentive for bus companies to run the routes.

Makes a further case for brining bus routes back under council control and run public transport like they do in London.

 TFL have made proposals recently, to drastically withdraw 16 routes from Central London, with much reduced frequencies on remaining routes too, amongst the routes facing being withdrawn, including 11, 14, 16, 24, with others proposed to be diverted well away from current routes, a lot of those routes up for withdrawal are quite busy too, case of careful what you whish for.

Here's a good blog mostly critical, that's responded to the proposals, with a detailed rundown of the proposals too.

https://busandtrainuser.com/2022/06/01/carnage-on-the-buses-in-central-london/

[Snail]

 TFL have made proposals recently, to drastically withdraw 16 routes from Central London, with much reduced frequencies on remaining routes too, amongst the routes facing being withdrawn, including 11, 14, 16, 24, with others proposed to be diverted well away from current routes, a lot of those routes up for withdrawal are quite busy too, case of careful what you whish for.

Here's a good blog mostly critical, that's responded to the proposals, with a detailed rundown of the proposals too.

https://busandtrainuser.com/2022/06/01/carnage-on-the-buses-in-central-london/

We want more people to use public transport though, honest!

[Statto Red]

We want more people to use public transport though, honest!

Agreed, but there are ways of how you go about it, & how not to go about it, TFL at the moment are the latter, a lot of the proposals are barmy, as with TFL if they want to change a route they will, & consultation will just be a sham.

[Snail]

Agreed, but there are ways of how you go about it, & how not to go about it, TFL at the moment are the latter, a lot of the proposals are barmy, as with TFL if they want to change a route they will, & consultation will just be a sham.

I was being sarcastic, this country is a joke.

[Statto Red]

I was being sarcastic, this country is a joke.

I see