Author Topic: The Level 3 Thread  (Read 1185240 times)

Offline amoh

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Its articles like this what should be in newspapers, not Mark Lawrenson telling us if we fail to win the league after signing Keane this season then Rafa has to go, what a big pile of short sighted bollocks.

Offline Red number seven

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So you are only putting dynasties on Level 3? Dynasties, of what we grew up on anyway, are near nigh impossible to build these days as I even look at Utds present set up and say their invincibility is not as solid as it was back in the 90s or ours back in the 70s and 80s. Hats off to winning two in a row but I cannot see any side winning 6 or 7 titles in a decade these days....I may be wrong but I figure the top 4, hopefully, will devy up the titles for the next decade pretty evenly among themselves. Thats just my take on where the game is going and has been actually for the past several years.

I am not expecting Rafa or us to ever win title after title again as the modern game will not allow that to happen I believe. If Rafa can turn around in 10 years time and look at 2 or 3 league titles then I will think he will have achieve as much as any manager could have at the club. For me that is a modern dynasty and the target we need to be setting.

In terms of youth, those that have come through at the dynasties were ones who were eased into a working format that was already winning titles. That is the goal for us. Of course you can always go out and buy the best youth money can buy but again without a working template which the likes of Ronaldo, Rooney, Toure, Fabregas came into too they may struggle. Our youth policy is a work in progress and will only come to fruit, I think, once you have title winners out there easing them into the 1st team.


I think level 3 is what you said, plus the ability to change to level 2 when required.

Arsenal can't do that.

Mourinho's Chelsea have really been a very efficient, incredibly difficult to beat, tough, professional, counterattacking side. There MO has always been concede nothing and wait for a mistake, then pick off the opposition on the break. They have never been a fluid, passing footballing side. 1/2 Billion version of Bolton, as a manc mate of mine said.

United are a very good footballing side who pass and move the ball very well, and have a surfeit of cutting egde players. They are also very able to dig deep, scrap, battle and defend their way to an ugly point or 3. They are the only level 3 side.


I do (obviously) think it is possible to win a title without level 3 football, but you have to be a damn good level 2 side with a lot of quality to do it.
I agree dynastic domination is likely to be difficult these days, but I can't see it happening without level 3.
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And then we'll get 4th as well and everyone in the whole world can do one.

Offline Manila Kop

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Does that explain why Rafa's keen on loans when players are nearly, but not quite, ready for the first team?

Always thought it was a physical strength/stamina/game time development thing, but could equally be about thriving on your own and developing mental solidity?

One question though Royhendo - if inculcating the framework into the players from the earliest age possible is the best way to reach Level 3 football consistently, how do we integrate our decisions to loan out youth players to other teams into this outlook?  This means depriving them of the TTTB from Melwood for significant periods of their development as players in favor of other modes of playing football with other teams.  These modes are arguably of a lower standard if they're playing in the Conference or League 1, although a case could be made that it exposes them to more styles of play than staying in the Reserves.  They will need to have the right mental capacity to process the lessons they learn on loan without the guidance from Rafa and his staff, and that seems a big gamble to take if we're banking on these youth products to get us and keep us on Level 3.

:)
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 04:47:38 pm by Manila Kop »
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Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

Offline Mimi

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Nice post, royhendo. I'm only beginning to appreciate the tactical side to football, so quite a bit went over my head :)

Seriously, it was very eye-opening in many respects. I particularly liked the description of roles such as the second striker, the variations within the defensive line with one being a playmaker pushing into midfield etc. You can definitely see the RM philosophy at work under Rafa. I thought your points about Alonso are interesting- ideally he seems to be the perfect RM player. But it goes to show that transferring theory to the field is very unpredictable.

The one man that will devour it, is Rafa himself! You should just try sending him a copy through .tv. Maybe he'll get it, and maybe you'll get thanks from him.
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Offline Guaranga

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Dutch football Guru wrote book outlining the building of successful footballing dunasty.

Some of the cornerstones are:
everyone from board to cleaners pulling in the same direction
-developing a culture of excellence, mental strength, team spirit, knowledge of tactics and role within these tactics
-bringing youth up in that culture
-developing your football through various levels from 'backs to the wall' (level 1) through 'counter attacking' (level 2) to 'circulation football with a cutting edge' - similar to pass and move in my opinion(level 3)

The author contends that Rafa's philosphy is very similar and you can see a gradual development from level 2 to level 3 football.

Doesn't really do the article anything like justice, as he argues the points extremely coherently and fills it with examples and quotations.

Very convincing stuff.

Thanks.Has this fella won anything?It's not a catch question.I know there's a lot more in the article but it sounds common sense.

Offline Manila Kop

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Thanks.Has this fella won anything?It's not a catch question.I know there's a lot more in the article but it sounds common sense.

Created the great Ajax sides of the 1970s with Cruyff, Neeskens, etc.  He's no slouch in the trophy department.
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Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

Offline Red number seven

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Thanks.Has this fella won anything?It's not a catch question.I know there's a lot more in the article but it sounds common sense.
Pile of Dutch leagues, La Liga, European Cup, European Championship, invented total football...

Cv not in question!
"You just have to give them credit for not throwing in the towel" - Gennaro Gattuso, May, 2005

And then we'll get 4th as well and everyone in the whole world can do one.

Offline Manila Kop

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Being a young star for a rubbish side can bring enourmous pressures and challenges that the youngster brought into a top side may never have to face, and hence can make the kid from the no mark side much stronger in the long run. The careers of players like Crouch, Wright and Finnan, not to mention many of our own icons like Keegan and Rush, are testament to this. Developing at shite clubs is what helped them be so mentally strong, precisely the thing that is also hardest to coach.

Thanks mate think that answered my question on the loan system.  :)
The infallible wank stain
Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

Offline Guaranga

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Pile of Dutch leagues, La Liga, European Cup, European Championship, invented total football...

Cv not in question!

Some good teams there.

Offline amoh

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I think level 3 is what you said, plus the ability to change to level 2 when required.

Arsenal can't do that.

Mourinho's Chelsea have really been a very efficient, incredibly difficult to beat, tough, professional, counterattacking side. There MO has always been concede nothing and wait for a mistake, then pick off the opposition on the break. They have never been a fluid, passing footballing side. 1/2 Billion version of Bolton, as a manc mate of mine said.

United are a very good footballing side who pass and move the ball very well, and have a surfeit of cutting egde players. They are also very able to dig deep, scrap, battle and defend their way to an ugly point or 3. They are the only level 3 side.


I do (obviously) think it is possible to win a title without level 3 football, but you have to be a damn good level 2 side with a lot of quality to do it.
I agree dynastic domination is likely to be difficult these days, but I can't see it happening without level 3.
I'm not too sure about Chelsea, during Mourinho's first season I thought they had a brilliant balance, although the majority of key buys were Ranieri's.  In fact things deteriorated in my opinion with nobhead's forays into the transfer market, Carvalho, Essien, Ballack and Drogba aside how many can be considered a success?

Offline hesbighesred

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Sum it up in a few sentences if you don't mind.

I'll try.

Legendary Dutch coach Renus Michels (RM) of 'total football' fame sets out in his book the steps to take to achieve that kind of football, and the type of players and coaching required.

He argues that to really achieve it you have to build it into the club and players from the youth stages all the way up to senior level, with the youth being the most important.

In terms of coaching, mentality is THE most important thing to look for. Next comes technical ability, last of all is physique.

To achieve the final stage of 'total football' (level 3...the levels are invented by the author to simplify the original book) a team may go through two previous stages.

Level 1 is 'backs to the wall football'...maybe something like a Watford played in the prem, trying to achieve some success when your players are basically crap.

Level 2 is counter attacking football. This is based on a solid defence, 2 banks of 4 (defence and midfield) keeping compact and close to each other. This stage is very similar to how we have played for the last few years.

Level 3 is 'total football'. It is a risky way to play, but can dominate teams completely, and is based (among other things) on one touch football, very intelligent use of possession, attacking full-backs, versatile intelligent players, winning the ball back high up the pitch, and a 'sweeper keeper'.

A key aspect of a 'level 3' team is also it's ability to use 'level 2' when necessary. IE, dominating is not enough if you can't also counter attack when you need to, and to be able to vary between these you need high quality and mentally strong players.

The article is basically arguing that Rafa's methods are extremely similar to RM's, and that our play over the last few seasons shows this. Many quotes and examples from interviews of our coaching staff and quotes from Rafa himself are used to show these similarites.

Key similarites are, in particular, the approach to youth and the importance of mentality. Mentality is a word mentioned time and time again by all our staff, and is clearly the thing Rafa looks for most, as did RM.

Now, although we are not there yet, there are also signs (not all mentioned in the article) that we are moving from 'level 2' to 'level 3'. We dominated more teams last season, we played more one touch football, at times we attacked with the whole team from all over the pitch, and Reina is a very, very good 'sweeper keeper'.

The signings this season point even more towards level 3, players like Keane and Barry who are versatile, mentally strong and very good at playing one touch football and keeping the ball moving constantly, but who are also solid when required to win back possession, or keep their positions as required when counter attacking.

Also, the two full-backs are very important, both very attacking, with attacking full-backs mentioned as one of the key aspects of a 'level 3' team.

So, in conclusion, we can see that Rafa is building something special, but we can also see that the task is very difficult, and that we need patience from owners and fans if we are going to see this happen.

The author argues that we won't see the full effect until our young players are really brought through the whole system, namely in about 5-6 years when the likes of Della Valle reach 21-22.

However, we can win things before this point. 'Level 3' is not achieved just by winning one title, but is something more like Liverpool of old, a system or machine of domination that is strong enough to lose players and managers yet still keep on winning.

***

I hope that makes things clearer, but there's a limit to how short I can make it and still give you the main points.
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Offline hesbighesred

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Does that explain why Rafa's keen on loans when players are nearly, but not quite, ready for the first team?

Always thought it was a physical strength/stamina/game time development thing, but could equally be about thriving on your own and developing mental solidity?

Maybe.

Hammill certainly said Dunfermiline did wonders for his mentality. Older players who couldn't give two craps about his skill level or reputation and were only interested in his 'flair' if it led directly to them winning more games.

That said, physique is probably also a huge factor. After all that's the final stage, and the part that needs perfecting in order to reach first team level. I guess it's both. That physical and mental intensity of competition strike me as two things it would be impossible to truly replicate at reserve level.
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Offline Red number seven

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I'm not too sure about Chelsea, during Mourinho's first season I thought they had a brilliant balance, although the majority of key buys were Ranieri's.  In fact things deteriorated in my opinion with nobhead's forays into the transfer market, Carvalho, Essien, Ballack and Drogba aside how many can be considered a success?
They were well balanced, but their basic tactic was, for a side of their quality, rather direct. Only after the game opened out (usually when 1-0 up) or when they were desperate (usually about 60-70 mins and drawing) would Jose change things and use the Joe Cole types to open things up.

The side's basic tactic was very risk averse, considering the money spent and the quality available.

But they won two titles, so who's to criticise?
"You just have to give them credit for not throwing in the towel" - Gennaro Gattuso, May, 2005

And then we'll get 4th as well and everyone in the whole world can do one.

Offline Guaranga

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I'll try.

Legendary Dutch coach Renus Michels (RM) of 'total football' fame sets out in his book the steps to take to achieve that kind of football, and the type of players and coaching required.

He argues that to really achieve it you have to build it into the club and players from the youth stages all the way up to senior level, with the youth being the most important.

In terms of coaching, mentality is THE most important thing to look for. Next comes technical ability, last of all is physique.

To achieve the final stage of 'total football' (level 3...the levels are invented by the author to simplify the original book) a team may go through two previous stages.

Level 1 is 'backs to the wall football'...maybe something like a Watford played in the prem, trying to achieve some success when your players are basically crap.

Level 2 is counter attacking football. This is based on a solid defence, 2 banks of 4 (defence and midfield) keeping compact and close to each other. This stage is very similar to how we have played for the last few years.

Level 3 is 'total football'. It is a risky way to play, but can dominate teams completely, and is based (among other things) on one touch football, very intelligent use of possession, attacking full-backs, versatile intelligent players, winning the ball back high up the pitch, and a 'sweeper keeper'.

A key aspect of a 'level 3' team is also it's ability to use 'level 2' when necessary. IE, dominating is not enough if you can't also counter attack when you need to, and to be able to vary between these you need high quality and mentally strong players.

The article is basically arguing that Rafa's methods are extremely similar to RM's, and that our play over the last few seasons shows this. Many quotes and examples from interviews of our coaching staff and quotes from Rafa himself are used to show these similarites.

Key similarites are, in particular, the approach to youth and the importance of mentality. Mentality is a word mentioned time and time again by all our staff, and is clearly the thing Rafa looks for most, as did RM.

Now, although we are not there yet, there are also signs (not all mentioned in the article) that we are moving from 'level 2' to 'level 3'. We dominated more teams last season, we played more one touch football, at times we attacked with the whole team from all over the pitch, and Reina is a very, very good 'sweeper keeper'.

The signings this season point even more towards level 3, players like Keane and Barry who are versatile, mentally strong and very good at playing one touch football and keeping the ball moving constantly, but who are also solid when required to win back possession, or keep their positions as required when counter attacking.

Also, the two full-backs are very important, both very attacking, with attacking full-backs mentioned as one of the key aspects of a 'level 3' team.

So, in conclusion, we can see that Rafa is building something special, but we can also see that the task is very difficult, and that we need patience from owners and fans if we are going to see this happen.

The author argues that we won't see the full effect until our young players are really brought through the whole system, namely in about 5-6 years when the likes of Della Valle reach 21-22.

However, we can win things before this point. 'Level 3' is not achieved just by winning one title, but is something more like Liverpool of old, a system or machine of domination that is strong enough to lose players and managers yet still keep on winning.

***

I hope that makes things clearer, but there's a limit to how short I can make it and still give you the main points.


Cheers to you and Red no7 for the time.Yeh that was nice and straightforward.

Offline kopindian

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Football education really.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R_iYLca2gc
Circulation football,no?The funny thing was that the commentator I was hearing here was going on about how he has seen the Argentine youth teams grinding the opposition teams down during the build-up to that goal.

I really believe we are nearing that stage but there are some obstacles like Olympics,new players into the team,new players in defense etc.I can see us getting better as the season progresses.Most frustrating thing is that Rafa's future might be dictatated by some knee jerkers in the media and among ourselves and 2 clueless owners of ours.

Offline RedRush

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Great, no, probably the greatest I've read on RAWK. Royhendo, I salute you (I wrote that your reply to L6 Red's wonderful post on this being the year was absolutely spot on, but never knew you'd go on to do this marvelous piece!)

I think there are no real Level 3 teams in England. Many say the Mancs have it to be able to build their dynasty but they were supplanted easily by Chelsea's suddenly bigger spending, and Chelsea is still not a Level 3 club in many aspects. I have not seen the type of circulation or suffocation football since those played by us in the past (One good game that demonstrates this comes to mind immediately and that is the 1986 FA Cup final against Everton).

We've been able to dominate recently in games against the Mancs and many times we were let down by dubious freekicks awarded just outside the box, or unlucky deflections or penalties or unawarded penalties against Chelsea. That's not to say we are already a higher level 2 team than they are but merely to illustrate my point why I feel they are a very high Level 2 team with the added bonus of extreme good luck. But they are there to be beaten as they are still not a real level 3 team, that is, if we can achieve Rafa's vision in the long run. I think most fans see this.

We simply cannot afford to think that five years is enough for any manager's planning to bear fruit, especially against opponents that can simply go out and buy Level 3 type players from other teams.

Offline amoh

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They were well balanced, but their basic tactic was, for a side of their quality, rather direct. Only after the game opened out (usually when 1-0 up) or when they were desperate (usually about 60-70 mins and drawing) would Jose change things and use the Joe Cole types to open things up.

The side's basic tactic was very risk averse, considering the money spent and the quality available.

But they won two titles, so who's to criticise?
I beg to differ, there would be times of course when they were negative as fuck but then in contrast they had real width and penetration from Robben and Duff and Gudjohnsen was a danger playing in a withdrawn midfield role.

Offline RedRush

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Football education really.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R_iYLca2gc
Circulation football,no?The funny thing was that the commentator I was hearing here was going on about how he has seen the Argentine youth teams grinding the opposition teams down during the build-up to that goal.

I really believe we are nearing that stage but there are some obstacles like Olympics,new players into the team,new players in defense etc.I can see us getting better as the season progresses.Most frustrating thing is that Rafa's future might be dictatated by some knee jerkers in the media and among ourselves and 2 clueless owners of ours.


That was probably the best World Cup 'team' goal ever.

You are so right re the rest of your post.

Offline hesbighesred

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So you are only putting dynasties on Level 3? Dynasties, of what we grew up on anyway, are near nigh impossible to build these days as I even look at Utds present set up and say their invincibility is not as solid as it was back in the 90s or ours back in the 70s and 80s.

In terms of youth, those that have come through at the dynasties were ones who were eased into a working format that was already winning titles. That is the goal for us. Of course you can always go out and buy the best youth money can buy but again without a working template which the likes of Ronaldo, Rooney, Toure, Fabregas came into too they may struggle. Our youth policy is a work in progress and will only come to fruit, I think, once you have title winners out there easing them into the 1st team.


No, I don't mean to say that only teams that have achieved dynasties can ever be considered level 3, just that level 3 is what you need to have a chance of making a dynasty.

What I mean by that is it's not enough to have a dominant attack (Arsenal) or incredible solidity, great counter attack and a ruthless will to win (Mourinho's Chelsea), but to have both (Man Utd now, Liverpool of old).

I totally agree that the title is harder to win and that 2 or 3 titles for Rafa with the present competition would constitute a massive achievement, but I don't believe that recent title winners, other than the current Utd qualify. The reason being that only Utd have consistently shown the ability to both dominate, and be resilient when required. Arsenal haven't had that resilience, in m honest opinion, since Graham's back 4 were still playing, and I don't think they ever will have while Wenger is in charge, because he doesn't seem to believe in it, and he doesn't seem to make that part of the youth culture at the club in the way we do.

As for youth, I see the importance of a template in terms of a dynasty, but I really don't get your point about Rooney and Toure in particular.

What winning template did they get brought up into at Everton and ASEC Mimosas?

Fergie and Wenger developed what were already almost finished articles as players. I would even go so far as to say that there is very little evidence of any kind of proper template for their own youngsters at Man Utd... they haven't produced a youngster capable of slotting in since Beckham and Co. Ronaldo was polished, not produced, ditto Rooney.

Rafa is a lot more like Wenger in bringing them young enough to still be able to develop them in a culture from u18 through reserves through to senior, with the vital difference that ours (I believe) will have a greater mental resilience, knowledge of tactics and ability to defend as a team.
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Offline Red_in_Holland

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Magnificent bit of work there, Roy !!

Thoroughly enjoyed that, thanks mate.

Michels was a blunt man, hard as nails too with a couple of squabbles with his young "stars", as I remember.  He was however a forerunner of the technical managers, the instigator of the total football and a fantastic tactician.

It would be well to remember our LFC winning back-to-back champions leagues, dominating europe and playing the football then that now is considered mandatory to winning domestic and foreign trophies.   We set the benchmark for more than a decade, with our approach to the game.  I always chuckle at Shank's having a go at Don Revie and his exercise books, while Bill was as sharp tactically as any of them, just didn't feel the need to write it down.

Wonderful read there, Royhendo.   I recommend everyone to take the time and read it properly.
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Offline fowlermagic

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Hopefully some day when we are old and weary we will see a copy of Rafas book on hi stime at Liverpool getting the same praise:)

In regards to the different styles hesbighesred each team's fan has tasted success over the past few years and give thems food for thought that they can do it again. Utd, Chelsea & even Arsenal are just as close or closer to the pinnacle of what every manager is striving for.

Rafa will only achieve what Wenger has done with his youth system when he drops the two full internationals for each position policy. Hopefully that time will come as I would love to see the likes of Plessis, Insua & Co start several league games by seasons end & overall play at least 10 plus senior games via cups 7 league.

Total football....something we saw in the late 80s with Beards, Barnes & Co. Beautiful.



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Offline ConnieLFC

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An absolutely tremendous post - truly.   And one I will be linking to a lot during the course of the season (starting today!). 

Thank you so much for taking the time to break such a wealth of information down so coherently - one of the best analyses I've read anywhere.  And another reason to get excited as we *are* getting closer, I firmly believe it:  we can't let any knee-jerking by either board or fans put us off course before the project is completed. 

Offline Red number seven

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I beg to differ, there would be times of course when they were negative as fuck but then in contrast they had real width and penetration from Robben and Duff and Gudjohnsen was a danger playing in a withdrawn midfield role.
But it was not uncommon for them not to start with those tactics, rather packing central midfield and bringing them on when the game opened out.

Their plan 'a' was rarely to go and attack a side, which is, I think, the main reason Abramovic and Mourinho departed company.
"You just have to give them credit for not throwing in the towel" - Gennaro Gattuso, May, 2005

And then we'll get 4th as well and everyone in the whole world can do one.

Offline hesbighesred

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In regards to the different styles hesbighesred each team's fan has tasted success over the past few years and give thems food for thought that they can do it again. Utd, Chelsea & even Arsenal are just as close or closer to the pinnacle of what every manager is striving for.

Rafa will only achieve what Wenger has done with his youth system when he drops the two full internationals for each position policy. Hopefully that time will come as I would love to see the likes of Plessis, Insua & Co start several league games by seasons end & overall play at least 10 plus senior games via cups 7 league.


Of course Arsenal and Chelsea can do it again. I neer said they couldn't. I would debate that they are closer than us though, if we are talking about 'level 3' as set out in this article. Chelsea we have no way of judging their progress until the season starts, Wenger has never and will never build a team with the type of resiliance described as 'level 2'. Man Utd, yes, albeit with differences.

I can't recall Rafa ever having a policy of 'two full internationals'. I thought it was more like two top players. He'll intoduce youngsters when he a) feels they are physically ready and b) when the prove themselves. Agger by himself should tell you all you need to know about Rafa's attitude to quality youngsters. What he won't do is play them just for the sake of it, or persevere with them if they don't show they're ready quickly enough...(which doesn't mean he'll get rid of them straight away, just means he won't keep sticking them in the first team like Wenger has with Senderos if they have some disastrous form).

I honestly think in time that Rafa will show himself to be at least the equal of Wenger in terms of youth development, but we won't start really seeing it until the better youth start reaching the age of 20+, or thereabouts. We may see the start of this this season with Plessis and perhaps Nemeth, but really I think next season will be a key...I expect one of Nemeth/Insua and the like, who will then be 21/20 will take a squad place.

There seems to be this perception that Wenger started throwing whole teams worth of 17 year olds in sraightaway. He didn't. The only early one was Anelka...the true products of his youth policy only really started coming through in the last couple of seasons, with the Carling Cup sides and the likes of Clichy and Bentdner.
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Offline Gnurglan

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We simply cannot afford to think that five years is enough for any manager's planning to bear fruit, especially against opponents that can simply go out and buy Level 3 type players from other teams.

Just how many years do we think is needed? When it comes to the 1st team only, then I reckon 5 years is a very long time. I'm all for patience, but 5 years is an eternity.

I think the initial post brings up something very important - that it's necessary for the whole club to have some sort of direction that everyone agrees on. When you have that long term agreement and it's put in place, when it's in everyone's minds, then things will go a lot quicker.

This is why the Mancs and Arsenal have it easier than us. I think this is more important than money, at least as we are not completely strapped for cash. They've had the same manager for a long time. The whole organisation is streamlined, where Rafa had to rebuild his own. That work will largely go unnoticed, but it's key. 


        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline harrytrow

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About time we had a doctrinate for the supporters.

Get them with the right mentality, and then teach them to sing.
Too many the other way round for my liking
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Offline Gnurglan

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Rafa will only achieve what Wenger has done with his youth system when he drops the two full internationals for each position policy. Hopefully that time will come as I would love to see the likes of Plessis, Insua & Co start several league games by seasons end & overall play at least 10 plus senior games via cups 7 league.

Total football....something we saw in the late 80s with Beards, Barnes & Co. Beautiful.


Agree and slowly, I think we're getting better. To create room for younger players to develop, we need to reduce the size of the squad. Take the fullback situation right now as an example. Dossena, Aurelio, Insua for the left and Finnan, Arbeloa, Degen for the right. We can't have it that way. Insua is probably behind Dossena, Aurelio and Arbeloa for a LB position. A young player can't be 4th pick if we want to see development.

Up front we've reduced the number of players slightly. Crouch and Kewell off - Keane in. Voronin and Benayoun/Pennant is likely to go as well. But generally I think we've been a little too cautious. Our squad has been a little too big. Under GH it was way too big and poorly balanced. Rafa has corrected the balance and size, but I think we could still shrink it a little more.

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline fowlermagic

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Agree Gnurglan as you cannot have our best young players sitting as 4th choice for his position in the 1st team. I was going to start a topic or find an old one to discuss this so not to hijack the thread but just may copy & paste your comments & mine in that topic to start discussion.

If you dont mind or do it yourself.
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Offline finchie

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Another 'penny drops' in understanding Rafa's tactics/strategy.
Bookmarked and printed off. Will read this many times. Fantastic read.

Offline Red number seven

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Agree Gnurglan as you cannot have our best young players sitting as 4th choice for his position in the 1st team. I was going to start a topic or find an old one to discuss this so not to hijack the thread but just may copy & paste your comments & mine in that topic to start discussion.

If you dont mind or do it yourself.
Started a topic on this a bit ago called 'the future's bright?' It's on page 3 if you don't want to reinvent the wheel.
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And then we'll get 4th as well and everyone in the whole world can do one.

Offline Scarlet`

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I read half and I am impressed.  Surprised you wrote all that.
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Offline RedRush

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Just how many years do we think is needed? When it comes to the 1st team only, then I reckon 5 years is a very long time. I'm all for patience, but 5 years is an eternity.
Without money, we'd have to go down the youth development road. So yes, patience is needed. Credits to Rafa that his vision is to build a dynasty, rather than on spending money only on the first 11 and hope luck and no injuries happen.

From the time Rafa came in his hands were tied. Not many realize that part of his spending that 1st year was already spent for him by Ged (on Cisse)! To get from a team like we had five years ago to this team, especially without having the cash to spend and the difficulties with getting rid of players who didn't want to go earn less somewhere else (i.e. Diao, Tallec, etc), and lack of support from the board, he's done very well.

And five years (an eternity!) has passed and we are here now, closer but probably not close enough yet!

I think the initial post brings up something very important - that it's necessary for the whole club to have some sort of direction that everyone agrees on. When you have that long term agreement and it's put in place, when it's in everyone's minds, then things will go a lot quicker.

This is why the Mancs and Arsenal have it easier than us. I think this is more important than money, at least as we are not completely strapped for cash. They've had the same manager for a long time. The whole organisation is streamlined, where Rafa had to rebuild his own. That work will largely go unnoticed, but it's key. 


You're right in that a club needs direction for things to go quickly and our previous setup may have impeded Rafa's work too.  Rafa's had to rebuild the whole organisation, bringing in his people for key posts and getting rid of popular figures, which is key. Chelsea winning back-to-back titles obviously skewed my view that money is the most important factor. But this factor is now not so important since we have Rafa and new owners more willing to sanction big buys albeit apparently not with their money.

Offline desikasanova

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Great read that, nice one mate and thanks for sharing your views :)

Offline penfold102

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Nice to know that when we hear the inevitable knee-jerk "Rafa must go" comments on here when we hit our next (equally inevitable) sticky patch, we can just say "I refer you to Royhendo's article on Rinus Michel" and leave the short-termists to muse on it. Although being short-termists, they probably won't devote the time to read it all. I'm sure there'll be lots of links to this excellent article and thread in the course of the coming season - let's hope people digest it properly before posting in the in-game threads.
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Offline Gnurglan

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Without money, we'd have to go down the youth development road. So yes, patience is needed. Credits to Rafa that his vision is to build a dynasty, rather than on spending money only on the first 11 and hope luck and no injuries happen.

From the time Rafa came in his hands were tied. Not many realize that part of his spending that 1st year was already spent for him by Ged (on Cisse)! To get from a team like we had five years ago to this team, especially without having the cash to spend and the difficulties with getting rid of players who didn't want to go earn less somewhere else (i.e. Diao, Tallec, etc), and lack of support from the board, he's done very well.

And five years (an eternity!) has passed and we are here now, closer but probably not close enough yet!


By all means, he's done a very good job.

I think the CL Finals show that things can be achieved within a relatively short period of time. What was a dream in 2002, when we thought we were close, became reality in his first season and since then we've added another Final and a Semi. We haven't won the league, but the results in Europe sure indicate a huge step forward. Few, if anyone, is our equal in Europe since Rafa arrived.

When Rafa came here, the biggest problem was the lack of balance in the squad. And I agree, the Cisse transfer tied his hands. In comparison, if a new manager was to come today, he'd have a nice collection of 2 players for each position. Wouldn't take more than a year to shape this squad to whatever a new manager wanted. 

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline Passmaster Molby

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Just....WOW !!!

Roy thats an outstanding piece of work you have created, and one which confirmed some of my thoughts on Rafa's thinking. It's a shame that all of our fans couldn't take 30mins out of their lives to read that, and maybe then the knee jerk reactionists would understand the bigger picture.

Offline paisleysshirt

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Excellent stuff.

What you seem to recognise - and what critics of Rafa's 'squad building' and purchase choices don't - is that an 'ultimate strategy - in your point in case level three football - requires in its implementation short or medium term strategies which may appear incompatible with the long term goal but in fact form necessary stageposts on the path to achieving it.  Progression is not as crassly 'linear' as some seem to think.

I feel rafa has such a long term strategy which he is indeed - in a rational stagepost way - evolving at LFC.
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Offline amoh

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But it was not uncommon for them not to start with those tactics, rather packing central midfield and bringing them on when the game opened out.

Their plan 'a' was rarely to go and attack a side, which is, I think, the main reason Abramovic and Mourinho departed company.
I'm not certain but I think Duff and Robben were mainstays in that side, this was the period where Mourinho was doubting of Cole concerning his work rate etc, I do agree that they became even more defensive which led to a parting of the ways.

Offline Мерфи

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No, I don't mean to say that only teams that have achieved dynasties can ever be considered level 3, just that level 3 is what you need to have a chance of making a dynasty.

What I mean by that is it's not enough to have a dominant attack (Arsenal) or incredible solidity, great counter attack and a ruthless will to win (Mourinho's Chelsea), but to have both (Man Utd now, Liverpool of old).

I totally agree that the title is harder to win and that 2 or 3 titles for Rafa with the present competition would constitute a massive achievement, but I don't believe that recent title winners, other than the current Utd qualify. The reason being that only Utd have consistently shown the ability to both dominate, and be resilient when required. Arsenal haven't had that resilience, in m honest opinion, since Graham's back 4 were still playing, and I don't think they ever will have while Wenger is in charge, because he doesn't seem to believe in it, and he doesn't seem to make that part of the youth culture at the club in the way we do.

As for youth, I see the importance of a template in terms of a dynasty, but I really don't get your point about Rooney and Toure in particular.

What winning template did they get brought up into at Everton and ASEC Mimosas?

Fergie and Wenger developed what were already almost finished articles as players. I would even go so far as to say that there is very little evidence of any kind of proper template for their own youngsters at Man Utd... they haven't produced a youngster capable of slotting in since Beckham and Co. Ronaldo was polished, not produced, ditto Rooney.

Rafa is a lot more like Wenger in bringing them young enough to still be able to develop them in a culture from u18 through reserves through to senior, with the vital difference that ours (I believe) will have a greater mental resilience, knowledge of tactics and ability to defend as a team.

Level 1, 2, and 3 look like they are devices that royhendo uses to explain how RM goes about describing styles of play on the football field.  It looks like the proper application of the 4 particulars (mentality, technique, tactics, physical) of a footballing player within his team.  As such, I don't think Level 3 football needs to encompass a whole season, and doesn't need to include the incorporation of youth players - doesn't need to signal a dynasty.

We've seen "level 3" football many many times from Liverpool and their competitors over the years.  The key is that when the top 4 play each other, often times, in order to come out on top, you have to 'devolve' for lack of a better term.  Level 3 football is high risk, high reward.  When you play it well, you crush good,average, poor teams.  But when you come up against another team with similar quality, high risk means dire consequences.  As a consequence you get two teams that will play level 2 football against each other . . . and what results are tentative snoozers for the neutral.  Witness every Chelsea/Liverpool game for the past 4 years.  Even though Man United have had their "way" with us in recent times - those games were played on a knifes edge, and just because Man U won, doesn't mean they played a higher class of football.  In the end - as royhendo highlights and RM states - it was a moment of individual brilliance or fortune which turned the game.

In recent years, I can only think of Arsenal that refused to devolve to a more counter attacking style of football when they come up against other tactically adept teams with high quality.  Clearly wenger understands RM's principles in terms of bringing youth players along.  Where he might go wrong, so to speak, is refusing to recognize that counter attacking/compact/ defensive football is essential in order to prevail - which RM clearly recognizes.

The day we play at the highest level of play against even the likes of Man U and Chelsea and Arsenal, and get away with it - will be an unbelievable day indeed.
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Offline Slave

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Got to say that's a top post Royhendo.  :wellin
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