Topic: Liverpool's Midfield

[FlashingBlade]

When all fit I would prefer ...until  we steady the ship.....  a 4-4-2 line up ( yes I know football is sooo advanced of that now...so advanced we get goals scored against us so easily we are used to it!) ..with a mid of Henderson Gerrard Can Allen ( Stirling and Sturridge in attack) ....wont happen but I think it may do us some good short term

[steveeastend]

Yet you think Lucas is?

 He's not been since he came back from his injury.

So he is not good enough for Chrystal Palace?... come on mate. People have to open up their eyes, it's beyond a joke how this squad is divided into two groups which isn't a good think from every possible angle you wanna look at it..

[GrkStav]

Lucas did replace Gerrard in the DM position against Villa when he came on though mate, as he did when we were struggling in the FA Cup game against Oldham a few weeks earlier. Here is a contemporaneous report from The Guardian;
http://www.lfchistory.net/Images/newspapers/riley/20140118vVilla.pdf

Ok, I read it. Where does it say anything about where Lucas was on the pitch when he came on?


"Villa's midfield diamond and front two prospered as an imbalanced Liverpool toiled without the Brazilian midfielder's astute protection. They resembled a cohesive, potent unit for the 21 second-half minutes Lucas was on the pitch. His exit with a knee injury after an innocuous collision with Fabian Delph may have serious repercussions for Liverpool's campaign - and perhaps January's transfer business - should scans confirm the worst. "It's in God's hands," tweeted Lucas after leaving Anfield on crutches."


By the way, it may be a different game when he came on and didn't feature as DM.

ON EDIT:

Lucas started along with Henderson and Coutinho (Gerrard on the bench) vs Hull City on New Year's Day. Not 100% what our formation was, I think it was 433 with Sterling, Suarez, and Aspas up front, but it could've been a diamond Lucas- Henderson Coutinho - Sterling with Suarez and Aspas up top? I don't remember.

Lucas started with Henderson and Gerrard vs Stoke City January 12. To the extent that the BBC's report can be considered reliable: "Captain Gerrard, who was playing in a holding midfield role on his 650th appearance for the club, slotted in his spot-kick to Jack Butland's left." I am not sure that means he was in the 'controller' role. I just don't remember.

To the best of my knowledge, Lucas was back on the bench first vs Man U March 16. He came on the 87' min for Gerrard. Then he was an unused substitute vs Cardiff City March 22 and vs Sunderland March 26, came on for Gerrard on the 70th min vs Tottenham  on March 30, came on for Coutinho to start the 2nd half vs West Ham April 6, and for Sterling in the 95' min (long additional time because of earlier injury, I think) vs MCFC April 13, started and completed the game vs Norwich (in a 1-2 with Gerrard in the 1 and Lucas and Allen as the 2) April 20, started with Allen in the same setup as vs Norwich and was substituted in favor of Sturridge in the 58th min vs Chelsea April 27, started and finished the match vs Crystal Palace in the same setup (Gerrard/Allen Lucas) May 5, and finally came on for Sturridge in the 80th minute vs Newcastle May 11.

Not a whole heck of a lot of appearances in the "Gerrard spot".

[Halcyon Lissome]

I think you have hit the nail on the head.  I just posted this in the defence thread, but I don't think Gerrard offers any protection at the moment, teams are just streaming through our midfield.

He only attempted TWO tackles in 90 minutes last night, winning one of them.  For our defensive midfielder, I don't think that is anywhere near enough.

http://www.fourfourtwo.com/statszone/5-2014/matches/782739/player-stats/1814/3_DEFENCE_01#tabs-wrapper-anchor

He had 1 tackle and 4 interceptions; that's very good actually. If he wasn't providing enough protection then forget about our other midfielders who were worse.

He also had 86 passes @ 94%, with 100 touches on the ball. Considering how we were being schooled; that's pretty damn good.

[scumbagcollege]

Ok, I read it. Where does it say anything about where Lucas was on the pitch when he came on?

From The Independent report later on.

Brendan Rodgers' plan to reinvent Steven Gerrard as a deep-lying playmaker in
the Andrea Pirlo mould will not be put on hold despite the self-confessed disaster
his captain suffered in the role before Liverpool salvaged a point against Aston
Villa on Saturday - with the aid of a disputed penalty won by Luis Suarez.
"It didn't work for myself or the team," Gerrard admitted. "Villa put a lot of men
around me and every time I tried to get the ball under control in the first half they
swamped me. It wasn't one of my better 45 minutes."
Liverpool recovered from a 2-0 deficit to draw 2-2 after Gerrard reverted to a
more familiar attacking function, with Lucas Leiva coming off the bench to take
his place in front of the back four.

http://www.lfchistory.net/Images/newspapers/riley/20140118vVilla.pdf

(By the way, excellent work by lfchistory.net , the links to the match reports of our games. )

[steveeastend]

Last season went to their heads including Rodgers. He tried to play it hard ball and now he is left with a bunch of players incredibly overrated...

[leivapool]

Yet you think Lucas is?

 He's not been since he came back from his injury.

Where did I say that?  Go back and learn to read properly.

[GrkStav]

From The Independent report later on.
 

http://www.lfchistory.net/Images/newspapers/riley/20140118vVilla.pdf

(By the way, excellent work by lfchistory.net , the links to the match reports of our games. )

Here's what I want to know, mate: Is this what actually happened?

I don't have the greatest faith in what journos write when they file stories about matches right after.

I found a video of the game. Watching it now (2nd half). Yep, it looks like Lucas slotted into what had been Gerrard's position.

I'll add it here so as not to disrupt the thread any further. Here's the URL for the 'transcript' of Lucas Leiva's interview with Radio Marca (in Spanish): http://www.marca.com/2014/10/21/futbol/futbol_internacional/premier_league/1413902660.html

Some of the reports that are (supposedly) based on it are pharmaceutical grade bovine excrement.

[Number 7]

I would like to see Can given a go in the team. He seems to be one of a few players who is actually shouting out instructions while he has the ball. He's  got a good balance of defensive and offensive skills. Would like to see a midfield if Allen, Henderson and Can at some point. Although, I can't see Gerrard being rested for Hull, since he'll probably be rested against
Swansea. We need players who are up for the fight and Can seems to have bottle and drive to him which is what we need right now.

[Draex]

I would like to see Can given a go in the team. He seems to be one of a few players who is actually shouting out instructions while he has the ball. He's  got a good balance of defensive and offensive skills. Would like to see a midfield if Allen, Henderson and Can at some point. Although, I can't see Gerrard being rested for Hull, since he'll probably be rested against
Swansea. We need players who are up for the fight and Can seems to have bottle and drive to him which is what we need right now.

He really needs to be wary of falling into the "defer to Gerrard" trap that so many before have. A lot of times v's Real him and Gerrard were 2 yards apart at times - doesn't help anyone. I agree he looks a talent - we've lacked a midfielder striding forward with the ball since a 2005 Gerrard.

[LFCsupporter]

- we've lacked a midfielder striding forward with the ball since a 2005 Gerrard.

Coutinho does that when he's on form. Problem is he's not the best defensively. I think he didn't really show any desire to track back and harry the Madrid players even when they were just 10 yards away from him. It was even more pronounced against Ludo.

[redmark]

                          Sterling            Sturridge

                                 
                                   Coutinho/Lallana

Coutinho/Lallana                                         Henderson


                                        Gerrard.

Can't be any worse than we've been surely ?

Leaving aside Sterling's precise position, I think that has pretty much been the aim - and it's a little disingenuous not to recognise that it's not been possible due to circumstance. Lallana (who was our key signing of the summer) and Sturridge's fitness only briefly coincided at an international get together, while Coutinho's form has only emerged over the last two or three games.

As discussed quite a bit recently, I think we're looking to play the 4231 as a 'defensive' shape, with one of.the CMs (often, but not always, Gerrard) dropping into the deeper role during spells of possession, the other pushing on to link up with the attacking trio behind the striker, or running on beyond. The idea, I think, to bring out the best of the attacking shape from last season while releasing Coutinho, say, from too much defensive duty - still having to press, but not dropping into a strict CM position out of possession. The system needs the 'defensive' energy of both Lallana and Sterling, not to mention the attacking threat of Sturridge.

As far as the midfield two are concerned, then certainly neither Gerrard nor Henderson are at their best with the responsibilities of the shape defensively. Henderson is better pressing higher; Gerrard is better splitting the CBs, playing a delaying role than the covering and tracking he has to do in a two. Arguably, Allen and Can are both more suited, in the breadth of their abilities, to such roles, but don't quite (yet) offer the same quality.

The way of mitigating those weaknesses, of course, would be for us to be more fluent and incisive in attack; to retain possession more; to win back the ball earlier and higher while still in the 'rotated' version of the midfield; and of course to be less brittle defensively, particularly from set pieces. To maximise the time spent in a 3421/343, minimising the time spent holding a 42- defensive shape.

That desperately needs the return of Sturridge, as well as the improved form and blending of Sterling, Coutinho and Lallana.

[L666KOP]

Leaving aside Sterling's precise position, I think that has pretty much been the aim - and it's a little disingenuous not to recognise that it's not been possible due to circumstance. Lallana (who was our key signing of the summer) and Sturridge's fitness only briefly coincided at an international get together, while Coutinho's form has only emerged over the last two or three games.

.

I'm fully aware of the injury situations, and hoped people would see my posts, and look 'beyond' the personnel available. I'm asking more about shape than anything. We have the players to play pretty much any shape/system/set up (God how I wish there was a universal word to avoid misinterpretation ). My point is that the line up I've shown is pretty much exactly what brought us so much success last season.
And I'll wager we've had the players to do it every game thus far, playing in a role they are comfortable with. They may not be our preferred choice, but surely consistency is key here ?

Why persist with 1 up top ? And change the whole dynamic of the side. Keep a system, just utilise the players we have. If Brendan intends to drop Mario when Daniel returns then fair enough, our reverting to 1 up top is justified.

If we'd have kept our shape from last season, even with our 2nd choice/backup players in the side then we could have just 'dropped' the first choices back in as they became fit, could it be any worse for the medium term than the constant reshuffling of how we line up ?

[Draex]

Coutinho does that when he's on form. Problem is he's not the best defensively. I think he didn't really show any desire to track back and harry the Madrid players even when they were just 10 yards away from him. It was even more pronounced against Ludo.

Sorry should have said - burst forward with power.. Coutinho does it with guile, we need both.

[L666KOP]

That's a good point. I agree with you that it can't be worse, but I don't know how much more effective it would be. Suarez was by far the most physically dominant player on the pitch in almost every match he played last year. We didn't need really more power than what Henderson provided in midfield because of Suarez, but I don't think Sterling, Sturridge, Coutinho, Lallana, Gerrard make up for his dominance. I think they make up for Suarez's pace and technical ability, but not his power. We don't have any one in the forward line right now, bar Balotelli and sometimes Sterling, who can relentlessly drive through defenders for 90 minutes like he did. (And Balotelli doesn't seem to utilize that part of his game nearly as much as I'd like. Sterling will get there as his body matures in the next few years.) That's why I think we need more power in midfield. We just can't drive through defenses right now, and they are getting a lot of joy because of it. Thoughts?

I wouldn't have Balotelli anywhere near the side, he just doesn't 'fit' how we play.

Sterling would be my choice as a partner for Daniel until we get Origi. I'd prefer us to go back to using our pace. But the key last year was not players with pace, it was the pace at which we shifted the ball that was key. I've yet to see a player that can run as quick as a pass.
 We need someone that keeps defenders 'honest'. Mario doesn't, he can be shut out of games to easily, what outstanding attribute does he have ? Sterling has pace, Lallana has the unerring ability to play equally as well with both feet. Either one of those I'd try out as a partner for Daniel.
We spent a shed load of money in the summer fattening the squad with players we were assured were for the main part 'ready'. We should be able to put a front six out that can in some part replicate last season's attacking verve, Suarez or not.

[Bangin Them In]

                          Sterling            Sturridge

                                 
                                   Coutinho/Lallana

Coutinho/Lallana                                         Henderson


                                        Gerrard.

Can't be any worse than we've been surely ?

Only thing I would possibly do to that is play one of Coutinho/Lallana and put Can in for a run, would give us more presence in midfield which that lacks at the minute, has been one of our issues, Gerrard won't cover that by himself

[redmark]

I'm fully aware of the injury situations, and hoped people would see my posts, and look 'beyond' the personnel available. I'm asking more about shape than anything. We have the players to play pretty much any shape/system/set up (God how I wish there was a universal word to avoid misinterpretation ). My point is that the line up I've shown is pretty much exactly what brought us so much success last season.
And I'll wager we've had the players to do it every game thus far, playing in a role they are comfortable with. They may not be our preferred choice, but surely consistency is key here ?

Why persist with 1 up top ? And change the whole dynamic of the side. Keep a system, just utilise the players we have. If Brendan intends to drop Mario when Daniel returns then fair enough, our reverting to 1 up top is justified.

If we'd have kept our shape from last season, even with our 2nd choice/backup players in the side then we could have just 'dropped' the first choices back in as they became fit, could it be any worse for the medium term than the constant reshuffling of how we line up ?

The reason for mentioning the injuries wasn't to dismiss the point - I agree, more or less - but I suppose to highlight the problem they (and our one failing in the transfer window) have posed us: we don't have a replacement for Sturridge. Perhaps we've naively supposed that Balotelli (who has the speed and technique) could just simply change the way he plays if asked to do so; but I suspect he was a bit of a speculative, wildcard signing. It's borderline negligence to go into the season with only a single striker who can play the way you need your striker to play for Plan A.

But we entered the season focused on replacing Suarez; I think, largely with Lallana (and a little shift in shape to suit Coutinho, in addition). His injury delayed that solution, compounded by poor form from Coutinho. Sturridge's injury was just the shitty icing on the cake. The very public reaction from Rodgers' to England's methods was an illustration of how disruptive it was, but also perhaps a bit of frustration at the realisation that we really hadn't prepared adequately for that possibility.

But the end result of all of that I think is that our midfield combination is spending more time in the 'two' that suits neither particularly well, than they're intended to. Even that might be manageable, if we weren't constantly conceding soft goals from set pieces. Despite the partial weaknesses of that midfield shape, it's not really where we're being overrun generally, or how we're conceding goals. A midfield 'two' of Gerrard and Henderson can work, I believe, if it isn't a fixed, orthodox two, but a flexible 'rotating'pair which isn't being forced onto the defensive fixed shape for long periods. Our major defensive flaw at the moment I think is our lack of attacking cohesion; our best 'protection' for the defence isn't to have an orthodox 'DM', but to hold onto the ball and to have the opposition pinned back and under pressure.

[redmark]

Sterling would be my choice as a partner for Daniel until we get Origi. I'd prefer us to go back to using our pace. But the key last year was not players with pace, it was the pace at which we shifted the ball that was key. I've yet to see a player that can run as quick as a pass.
 We need someone that keeps defenders 'honest'. Mario doesn't, he can be shut out of games to easily, what outstanding attribute does he have ? Sterling has pace, Lallana has the unerring ability to play equally as well with both feet. Either one of those I'd try out as a partner for Daniel.

Sterling's pace is a powerful weapon when he's carrying the ball, and there's a difference between him ghosting in off the back of the fullback, and spinning off a centre back who's specifically focused on marking him. I think it might backfire, but clearly if Sturridge is out for a while to come and Balotelli gets benched, we're lacking options up top.

[L666KOP]

Sterling's pace is a powerful weapon when he's carrying the ball, and there's a difference between him ghosting in off the back of the fullback, and spinning off a centre back who's specifically focused on marking him. I think it might backfire, but clearly if Sturridge is out for a while to come and Balotelli gets benched, we're lacking options up top.

But our 16m pound specialist striker doesn't do it ?

Mario can be shut out of games with relative ease. Raheem can score, he's proved he can, and he has a variety of goals on his CV already. I'd rather see him in a 2 up front, at least he's 'in tune' with how we play, and what makes us effective. Even if he has to 'endure' a season out of position as such.
Like yourself, I think it's criminal that we failed to 'replace' Suarez/Sturridge with at least a 'similarly' minded player, even if we couldn't attract a like for like quality player.

[redmark]

But our 16m pound specialist striker doesn't do it ?

Absolutely agreed.

Mario can be shut out of games with relative ease. Raheem can score, he's proved he can, and he has a variety of goals on his CV already. I'd rather see him in a 2 up front, at least he's 'in tune' with how we play, and what makes us effective. Even if he has to 'endure' a season out of position as such.

If we do it, I hope we don't lose more (missing his runs from deeper, with or without the ball) than we gain. But yeah, we're short of options.

In the short term, I'd probably stick an extra CM in the side (probably Can), try to get back to retention of the ball, and have Sterling, Lallana and Coutinho floating around in a striker-less but more fluid system to give the opposition something different to think about. A focal point who isn't focused is pointless. Or give Lambert a couple of games.

[L666KOP]

Absolutely agreed.

If we do it, I hope we don't lose more (missing his runs from deeper, with or without the ball) than we gain. But yeah, we're short of options.

In the short term, I'd probably stick an extra CM in the side (probably Can), try to get back to retention of the ball, and have Sterling, Lallana and Coutinho floating around in a striker-less but more fluid system to give the opposition something different to think about. A focal point who isn't focused is pointless. Or give Lambert a couple of games.

We might, and that's the risk, we lose Raheem's effectiveness in the midfield on transitions etc, but gain nothing up front. But I'm at a point now where I'd try anything to arrest the slide our front 5/6 are on.

I desperately hope we are looking at a striker for January, the short term pain of spending a few million would be offset by top 4 next year. I know our long term options are Sturridge, and Origi, but we need a short term solution. If we can't keep the back door shut then we need to start outscoring sides again.

Not sure which problem is easiest to fix, and not one I'd like to be in Brendans shoes for ?

[redmark]

We might, and that's the risk, we lose Raheem's effectiveness in the midfield on transitions etc, but gain nothing up front. But I'm at a point now where I'd try anything to arrest the slide our front 5/6 are on.

I desperately hope we are looking at a striker for January, the short term pain of spending a few million would be offset by top 4 next year. I know our long term options are Sturridge, and Origi, but we need a short term solution. If we can't keep the back door shut then we need to start outscoring sides again.

Not sure which problem is easiest to fix, and not one I'd like to be in Brendans shoes for ?

We must be looking for a striker in January, you'd think. And not on deadline day, either.

I think our defence has two problems, and one can be (partly) fixed by fixing the attack - it's having to do too much work. The other is set pieces, which just needs fixing simply and quickly (see the ball? Jump and head it).

[steveeastend]

Yeah, it's about adjusting the attack and defense in order to "fix" our midfield... you couldn't make it up..

[redmark]

Yeah, it's about adjusting the attack and defense in order to "fix" our midfield... you couldn't make it up..

No, but you can make up the contrary opinion that all our attacking issues are the fault of our midfield (actually, a particular midfielder) and all our defensive issues are the fault of our midfield (actually, a particular midfielder).

The midfield is a link between defence and attack, protecting the former while supporting the latter. Those with a certain agenda constantly refer to us being 'overrun' in midfield, without either acknowledging that most of the goals we're conceding are not coming in that way, or why our midfield is coming under pressure. Our attack has been dysfunctional. We neither retain the ball, nor pose much threat. We were missing Lallana, Coutinho was poor, now we're missing Sturridge's movement and pace. Our midfield (and defence) are therefore coming under heavier, sustained pressure than it should - yet overall, isn't actually crumbling. We then concede a soft goal from a corner.

We're failing at both ends of the pitch, for rather obvious reasons. Yet apparently playing Allen or Can in place of Gerrard means Balotelli will learn how to make attacking runs and improve his decision making, and teach Skrtel and Lovren how to mark at corners. You couldn't make that up, but plenty do.

[L666KOP]

Yeah, it's about adjusting the attack and defense in order to "fix" our midfield... you couldn't make it up..

It is, not sure how you wouldn't think otherwise ?

[Redman0151]

It seems that no matter what midfield combination we play we struggle to control the midfield and are always extremely open to the counter and quick attacks, like our defence I worry there's a systematic issue there as well

[Adam_LFC]

I wanna see Can, Allen, Henderson. You have two box to boxers and a tempo dictator in there, it seems perfect.

[L666KOP]

It seems that no matter what midfield combination we play we struggle to control the midfield and are always extremely open to the counter and quick attacks, like our defence I worry there's a systematic issue there as well

It's not helped by the Balotelli.
His nickname should be cul-de-sac.

He just doesn't fit our style. I was quite excited when we got him, I was desperate for a bit of unpredictability. I was sure that's what he would bring. The one part of Luis that I knew we'd never replicate. It's just not working.

We either get another MF in and make it a proper 451, or we use a 433 and drop Mario. He's a decent hold up player, but it's not what we need.

If we fix the problems at either end I'm sure the midfield will 'drop' into place.

[redmark]

We're failing at both ends of the pitch, for rather obvious reasons. Yet apparently playing Allen or Can in place of Gerrard means Balotelli will learn how to make attacking runs and improve his decision making, and teach Skrtel and Lovren how to mark at corners. You couldn't make that up, but plenty do.

I wanna see Can, Allen, Henderson. You have two box to boxers and a tempo dictator in there, it seems perfect.

On cue.

[clinical]

I wanna see Can, Allen, Henderson. You have two box to boxers and a tempo dictator in there, it seems perfect.

I'd quite like to see that at some point too if I'm honest. Or even a more attacking Lallana, Henderson, Allen/Can

[steveeastend]

Those with a certain agenda constantly refer to us being 'overrun' in midfield,

It's an agenda when we are being overrun in midfield? Nothing suprises me when it comes to the ideas people create in order to protect a certain group of players. Maybe we both have an agenda? Or maybe we have different opinions as a fan?

The fact that we are getting overrun won't go away though that's for sure.

Look, if you wanna stay in control of a game on that level a team has to be able to pass the ball as a unit and defend as a unit. We cannot do that at the moment and that has a lot to do with our midfield. Being able to "boss"  a midfield comes from quality first, the quality needed in order to stay in control of a situation and pass the ball calm while getting into the right spaces in order to make yourself available again. Pass and move and if people haven't realised yet that some players in our midfield are simply not talented enough to control the ball quick enough in order to pass it as quick as possible while being able to KNOW where to move in tiny spaces to stay in control of a game, varying the pace IF possible and NOT because of rushed decisions under pressure, then I am lost for arguments. It's visible, Henderson can make some good runs and be part of a quality midfield but he is far from being able to carry a game. Same with Allen. Gerrard is pyhsically finished, unfortunately and this is what you get then. No movement, no passing, nothing, only long balls and no control as the ball will come back pretty quickly without the oustanding quality of Suarez.

[L666KOP]

It's an agenda when we are being overrun in midfield? Nothing suprises me when it comes to the ideas people create in order to protect a certain group of players. Maybe we both have an agenda? Or maybe we have different opinions as a fan?

The fact that we are getting overrun won't go away though that's for sure.

Look, if you wanna stay in control of a game on that level a team has to be able to pass the ball as a unit and defend as a unit. We cannot do that at the moment and that has a lot to do with our midfield. Being able to "boss"  a midfield comes from quality first, the quality needed in order to stay in control of a situation and pass the ball calm while getting into the right spaces in order to make yourself available again. Pass and move and if people haven't realised yet that some players in our midfield are simply not talented enough to control the ball quick enough in order to pass it as quick as possible while being able to KNOW where to move in tiny spaces to stay in control of a game, varying the pace IF possible and NOT because of rushed decisions under pressure, then I am lost for arguments. It's visible, Henderson can make some good runs and be part of a quality midfield but he is far from being able to carry a game. Same with Allen. Gerrard is pyhsically finished, unfortunately and this is what you get then. No movement, no passing, nothing, only long balls and no control as the ball will come back pretty quickly without the oustanding quality of Suarez.

Who are we passing it to though ? Each other ?

We have a striker in place that is the complete opposite of what our midfield is used to. We're playing a 1 up front, so by definition we have a focal point. But our focal point is not in tune with the midfield. I can't understand why you'd think otherwise.
The only difference between this season and last is that our strikeforce has altered.

We can reach Barcelona levels of being able to protect the ball in the middle third, but if all our striker wants to do is receive it and take his man on rather than run behind into space or lay a quick pass of to an onrushing FB, MF etc we're going to break down constantly ?

Like I said earlier, our midfield can be blamed for a certain amount of goals, it comes with the territory, always on the front foot, always looking to attack, but our main problem this season is defending restarts, which midfield combination do you suggest we play in order to stop our problems in that area ?

As things stand our midfield is the least of our worries.

[steveeastend]

Who are we passing it to though ? Each other ?

We have a striker in place that is the complete opposite of what our midfield is used to. We're playing a 1 up front, so by definition we have a focal point. But our focal point is not in tune with the midfield. I can't understand why you'd think otherwise.
The only difference between this season and last is that our strikeforce has altered.

We can reach Barcelona levels of being able to protect the ball in the middle third, but if all our striker wants to do is receive it and take his man on rather than run behind into space or lay a quick pass of to an onrushing FB, MF etc we're going to break down constantly ?

Like I said earlier, our midfield can be blamed for a certain amount of goals, it comes with the territory, always on the front foot, always looking to attack, but our main problem this season is defending restarts, which midfield combination do you suggest we play in order to stop our problems in that area ?

As things stand our midfield is the least of our worries.

The quality upfront from last season deflacted from our problems in midfield as soon as Gerrard sloted in the Lucas role. We could only do that BECAUSE of our outstanding attack but that's not something you can build a team upon no? Our inability to control a game with calm passing was also visible in those last games, Norwich, f.e. no?

Following your logic we can end the season right now cause there won't be another Suarez coming around in the near future and Sturridge on his own, even with Sterling won't be able to put the same pressure on teams to keep them in their half, no way.

Our problems at the moment come from the inablity of the midfield to control the game by keeping the ball, that's pretty simple. Because they are not good enough to do that they go for the long ball too soon, how someone can see this as NOT being a problem suprises me.

[L666KOP]

The quality upfront from last season deflacted from our problems in midfield as soon as Gerrard sloted in the Lucas role. We could only do that BECAUSE of our outstanding attack but that's not something you can build a team upon no?

Following your logic we can end the season right now cause there won't be another Suarez coming around in the near future and Sturridge on his own, even with Sterling won't be able to put the same pressure on teams to keep them in their half, no way.

Our problems at the moment come from the inablity of the midfield to control the game by keeping the ball, that's pretty simple. Because they are not good enough to do that they go for the long ball too soon, how someone can see this as NOT being a problem suprises me.

I've never suggested we can replace Suarez, it's a fools errand.

But what you can do, and the next best thing is to target a suarez lite. A poor mans version.

That way we keep the majority of the side intact, and instead of scoring 30 goals, and assisting in another 15, we might see figures of 20, and 5. You could argue that another striker of Daniels calibre would adequately fill his boots. But signing Mario has forced us into a complete reshuffle from the defence forward.

We talked of replacing what Luis brought across 2 or 3 players, in hindsight I think this was the wrong choice unfortunately. We should just have concentrated on replacing Luis as best as we could. We've over complicated things.

Accept we won't be the force we were last year, but hope the extra 12 months playing together, and the squad fattening would be enough.

[Redman0151]

I've never suggested we can replace Suarez, it's a fools errand.

But what you can do, and the next best thing is to target a suarez lite. A poor mans version.

That way we keep the majority of the side intact, and instead of scoring 30 goals, and assisting in another 15, we might see figures of 20, and 5. You could argue that another striker of Daniels calibre would adequately fill his boots. But signing Mario has forced us into a complete reshuffle from the defence forward.

We talked of replacing what Luis brought across 2 or 3 players, in hindsight I think this was the wrong choice unfortunately. We should just have concentrated on replacing Luis as best as we could. We've over complicated things.

Accept we won't be the force we were last year, but hope the extra 12 months playing together, and the squad fattening would be enough.

The correct thing to do was to buy players so that we didn't need 2 strikers on the pitch who need to score a combined 55+ goals between them to mount a title challenge, even when Sturridge comes back it feels like we're just going to go back to the diamond from last year but have Balotelli in Suarez's position which is just admitting defeat

[L666KOP]

The correct thing to do was to buy players so that we didn't need 2 strikers on the pitch who need to score a combined 55+ goals between them to mount a title challenge, even when Sturridge comes back it feels like we're just going to go back to the diamond from last year but have Balotelli in Suarez's position which is just admitting defeat

Like I said mate, I wouldn't have Mario in the side, I'd stick Raheem up there with him. See how it goes for 2/3 games then reassess.

The diamond from last year worked a treat, buy players that fit the system, don't buy players that mean you have to alter it.

It feels like we've thrown a car away because we got a puncture.

[steveeastend]

I've never suggested we can replace Suarez, it's a fools errand.

But what you can do, and the next best thing is to target a suarez lite. A poor mans version.

That way we keep the majority of the side intact, and instead of scoring 30 goals, and assisting in another 15, we might see figures of 20, and 5. You could argue that another striker of Daniels calibre would adequately fill his boots. But signing Mario has forced us into a complete reshuffle from the defence forward.

We talked of replacing what Luis brought across 2 or 3 players, in hindsight I think this was the wrong choice unfortunately. We should just have concentrated on replacing Luis as best as we could. We've over complicated things.

That depends on how you see it. Last season, and that's pretty much always how success comes as long as a club isn't able to pay the extra buck, was a combination of things coming together pretty much out of the blue. It was Rodgers giving up on his initial plan short term for the right players coming together at the right time. Some left from Rafa, some lucky transfers (Coutinho), Suarez and Gerrard on the last minutes of what his body could give him in terms of professional football.

I totally agree that this is gone but we really shouldn't be trying to recreate this lucky combination of last season with the bunch of players we have around at the moment. They are simply not on the same level to play this sort of out of this world attacking mindset of last season. No one could, not even Real does.

We have to get back to the basics now, the dream is over, let's get some solid ground work done before thinking of conquering the world again and this would mean to start with a solid holding midfielder, Lucas, then maybe Allen on his side, or Can and see how we can take it from there. If Can has settled in, then maybe he could replace Lucas later this season if Lucas still decides to leave but at the moment we are crying out for a solid anchor in front of our defense as our overall play CANNOT be reproduced the way it happened last season. Furthermore I would go for two solid wingers, Sterling, Markovic, with Manquilo and Moreno as wing backs they should be able to put some nice crosses in for Mario and/or Sturridge. Coutinho, Henderson or Gerrard right behind our main striker and there should't be the gaps we are offering and the lack of ideas upfront left I reckon. The plan using Gerrard in the "Pirlo" role is finished, the sooner Rodgers realises this the sooner we will be settled again.

I wish Rodgers would go for something like that, some solid game plan instead of trying the be a Ferrari with some VW spare parts in it, as solid they made be.

[Redman0151]

Like I said mate, I wouldn't have Mario in the side, I'd stick Raheem up there with him. See how it goes for 2/3 games then reassess.

The diamond from last year worked a treat, buy players that fit the system, don't buy players that mean you have to alter it.

It feels like we've thrown a car away because we got a puncture.

I agree with you about Raheem, but like I said no matter who we bought in the summer (except Messi/Ronaldo) we were going to be weaker if we just tried to replace Suarez in the same system, we should have adapted (and I think Rodgers wanted to given he started 4-5-1 on the opening game) and found a new more solid way to play.

If we found a way to make our defence solid then Sturridge/Coutinho/Sterling/Lallana should be enough to see us over the line in most games

[indlfc]

The quality upfront from last season deflacted from our problems in midfield as soon as Gerrard sloted in the Lucas role. We could only do that BECAUSE of our outstanding attack but that's not something you can build a team upon no? Our inability to control a game with calm passing was also visible in those last games, Norwich, f.e. no?

Following your logic we can end the season right now cause there won't be another Suarez coming around in the near future and Sturridge on his own, even with Sterling won't be able to put the same pressure on teams to keep them in their half, no way.

Our problems at the moment come from the inablity of the midfield to control the game by keeping the ball, that's pretty simple. Because they are not good enough to do that they go for the long ball too soon, how someone can see this as NOT being a problem suprises me.

'Spot on. Look how easily Madrid kept the ball around our box. Even with two man mid field.

[L666KOP]

That depends on how you see it. Last season,

I can't believe that we need to throw it all away because we lost one player ?

Seriously, it's madness, no matter who that player is, stick to your principles.

Utd didn't rip it up and start again when Ronaldo left. Chelsea didn't when Drogba left.

If you do what you suggest then we'll be in a constant state of flux, it's akin to sacking your manager after a bad season.