Author Topic: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic  (Read 97381 times)

Offline Charlie Adams fried egg

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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #440 on: January 26, 2018, 01:56:05 pm »
From who? The owners? The manager? Scouting team? Football in general?

Tickets for English football are too expensive, which is a wider issue. Again, its a pipe dream to think we'll just reduce ours when no-one else does.

The issue that Al, and a few others have had, is that without knowing in detail how certain things work at the football club....its FSGs fault. Not just tickets, because I'm sure we all agree that tickets are too expensive and need to be reduced. But everything. How transfers work, how scouting works, the stadium, the training ground, sponsorship, the way we sell shirts, the club store. Every point that Al makes is completely drowned by this very clear theme that the lad just doesn't want these guys to own us. They don't take money out of the club (or if they do, its negligible as fuck). The money that has been made has been put back into the club. We've got a top class manager who they signed, and he's been backed. That's what we asked for when we had the cancers. Rodgers got sacked and we asked for something better, not a project manager but a top class one. And we got him. We've gone out and got players that he wants. Top players. But its this toxic environment created that doesn't suggest that they've done okay but could do better (which is what every 'pro-FSG' person actually believes), rather that every problem we have is because of the way we run the club. We lose against Swansea and within minutes the problem wasn't that we sometimes do struggle against bus parkers. It was that FSG sold Coutinho because that's what they do, and why we'll never move forward under their ownership.

The stadium thing is fascinating. On what planet would it be sensible to go and build a brand new stadium which would cost the thick end of a billion pounds? That's got nothing to do with the owners not wanting to put their money where their mouth is. That's sensible owners (which is what we asked for) being sensible. The only owners who do that, or go and sign big name players on huge wages for the bench, are sugar daddies who don't have a care about money. Which we keep saying we don't want. So what is it?

Great post.
On the stadium, is there an example of a club at the top end of the UK game that have financed and built a brand new stadium themselves that has increased their competitiveness? Closest is Arsenal who had the benefit of some prime north London real estate to ease the pain.
On the basis that such a club doesn't exist, I'm not sure that we can be having a go at FSG for not doing so. Don't forget there were huge swathes of our supporters that didn't want to leave Anfield either.

Offline Anfield89

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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #441 on: January 26, 2018, 03:44:14 pm »
That is only true if you don't get GA fans buying hospitality tickets because there are simply no GA tickets available. Look at the carsberg hub tickets the seats for the Carsberg hub are normal seats in the main stand in the wings near the kop or ARE end. They aren't corporate seats but the only way you can buy them is if you pay over the odds for a package.

We are brainwashed into believing that the ARE isn't suitable for corporate seats . Strangely enough though they will sell you a package with a hotel room at well over the odds with a ARE ticket thrown in.

Of course Anfield road is suitable for corporate seats. It should be included and help pay for the stand it would be stupid not to.
If people are buying corporate packages because they can’t get a general admin ticket then they can afford it and don’t mind spending the day there. Me, if there’s a point when I struggle to get tickets I wouldn’t entertain the thought of it.
Getting more young fans into the ground, expanding and general getting tickets more affordable than a very few who can afford decide to buy a package because theres no general.

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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #442 on: January 26, 2018, 05:21:25 pm »
Great post.
On the stadium, is there an example of a club at the top end of the UK game that have financed and built a brand new stadium themselves that has increased their competitiveness? Closest is Arsenal who had the benefit of some prime north London real estate to ease the pain.
On the basis that such a club doesn't exist, I'm not sure that we can be having a go at FSG for not doing so. Don't forget there were huge swathes of our supporters that didn't want to leave Anfield either.

I love the Arsenal myth about prime real estate.



Top right in Highbury and on the left is the Emirates. They are a stones throw away from each other. Given that the footprint of the Emirates dwarfs Highbury could you please explain how they have benefited from land prices especially considering the other things Arsenal had to pay for in the surrounding area to get planning permission.

As for a new Stadium the likes of Leicester, Southampton, Huddersfield, Brighton and Swansea don't seem to have had their progress hampered by new stadiums.

Then we have Spurs who are probably the best run Club in the Country who are quite happy to spend big money on a new ground.

As it goes I think the expansion of the Main Stand spelled the end of a new ground under FSG but that doesn't mean we shouldn't extend Anfield to get as many fans in as we possibly can.

Maybe we should look at what our competitors are doing.

In Spain Real and Barca are both embarking on 400m euro redevelopments of their existing stadiums whilst Atletico have just moved into a stunning new 67,000 capacity stadium.

Bayern have the stunning Allianz arena. In England Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea and West Ham have or will have new Stadiums. United have Old Trafford which holds 75,000 and generates £100m+ in match day income. Whilst City are currently expanding the Etihad to 61,000 with long term plans to rival United's capacity.

FSG made it clear what their plans were right from the start. Henry's email to other members of FSG that was released as part of the New York court case outlined their plans. To mimic Fenway Park, to spend around £100m on the Stadium to massively increase the corporate take and then to look to cash in on the TV revenue.

So maybe we should look at what they did at Fenway they inherited a Stadium that held 33,993 and have extended it to 37,731. What they have done is to massively increase the number of expensive seats and lounges. Out of 30 MLB teams they have the Ball park with the 26th biggest capacity.

So without an extended ARE we will be going the same way. United, Arsenal, West Ham and City already have bigger Stadiums and Spurs, Chelsea and even Everton could all have bigger Stadiums than us.

You look at our income and our fanbase and how can that possibly be right, even Celtic have a Stadium that holds north of 60k.

Over and over again it has been stated in this thread that we have a problem of demand massively outstripping supply. To us as fans that is a problem but for the owners is it a problem or is it just away to force up prices without spending further on Stadium infrastructure. 

For me it is immoral for a business to 'leverage fan affinity' as Fenway Sports Management call it. To hike prices because they operate a monopoly and we have no alternative.

Ticket prices are getting more and more ridiculous and all it is doing is funding ever more obscene wages and agents fees. So why not squabbling and looking to turn this into debates about the ownership or OOters and stick together back the likes of SOS and the FSF and look to make the authorities intervene.

Governments wouldn't allow utilities, TV companies or retailers to create a monopoly and then bleed their customers dry so why should Football be any different ? 
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Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #443 on: January 26, 2018, 05:28:09 pm »
I love the Arsenal myth about prime real estate.


They sold hundreds of millions of pounds worth of developed real estate (apartments) at the old ground and bought cheaper, brownfield land (albeit heavily polluted) for the new stadium. Nonetheless...


Great post.
On the stadium, is there an example of a club at the top end of the UK game that have financed and built a brand new stadium themselves that has increased their competitiveness? Closest is Arsenal who had the benefit of some prime north London real estate to ease the pain.
On the basis that such a club doesn't exist, I'm not sure that we can be having a go at FSG for not doing so. Don't forget there were huge swathes of our supporters that didn't want to leave Anfield either.

As it happens, Arsenal have suffered more than most - even with all those juicy apartments to sell. I can't think of anyone who has moved into a new stadium without huge help from outside sources. Without that there must only be redevelopment and that takes time.

To be fair to Moores et al, it's what they wanted to start in 2002. Our good old chip on the shoulder city pushed back on that and they then realised that the total cost of the game at the top went way beyond their capability. It's taken a decade and near bankruptcy to get back to the right model of step by step redevelopment.

The cost of football to the fans is outrageous. There's plenty of people to blame for that but apart from a few, generally not the owners. Abramovitch for one, did huge damage to the game by dumping money into the game and starting the massive inflation in player costs that TV has gone bonkers on. The foundation of the Premier League has played its part. And there are others and for different reasons, who have pushed the game beyond the pocket of the fans.

This is the context in which FSG must work or just give up and forget football. They have to get as much revenue as possible from as many sources as possible. But they're not stupid. They know they can't whack prices up to Emirates level and hope to fill the stadium in Liverpool with London prices.

And if everyone wants the funds to get the very best players, It has to be all about the most that most people can afford for the minimum investment. Back in the day, all GA tickets were broadly the same price and there was comparatively little hospitality revenue. So widening the ticket bands and getting the most out of corporates had to be the first step. The conditions for taking the next step are very tight. The cost of stadium construction has gone through the roof and the ability to pay more, even for ordinary tickets is at best, flat.

Thus far, FSG have done pretty well to keep general ticket prices where they are, in and around inflation. And they know that's where they are going to have to stay. In that context, it's going to be really hard to find ways to add capacity and keep ordinary ticket prices down to a place where enough people can afford to go and the extra capacity can be paid for.

For the avoidance of doubt, FSG are not going to throw money away on stadium expansion at ticket prices that do not support or add at best or take away at worst from the club's ability to compete with better and better players. Even as Kenny Dalglish said, nobody ever did anything without the money to do it.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 05:43:34 pm by Peter McGurk »

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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #444 on: January 26, 2018, 06:08:09 pm »
They sold hundreds of millions of pounds worth of developed real estate (apartments) at the old ground and bought cheaper, brownfield land (albeit heavily polluted) for the new stadium. Nonetheless...

Another myth is that Arsenal funded the Stadium through massive profits on the Highbury square development. I don't want to get personal Peter but if you are going to try and pass yourself off as an expert on Stadium developments then you really shouldn't be posting half truths.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/constructionandproperty/6240911/Arsenal-accepts-lowball-offer-for-vacant-Highbury-Square-flats.html

By Peter Taylor, Business Reporter

9:49PM BST 28 Sep 2009

The club, which has been in refinancing negotiations with its banking syndicate since late last year, has offloaded the flats in the North Stand of its former stadium at a discount to market value of almost 20pc, according to analysts.

London & Stamford, which had previously only invested in commercial property with long-term tenants, stepped in with a cut-price offer after another investor abandoned plans to buy the apartments.

Malaysian group Fraser & Neave is understood to have earlier agreed to buy 120 apartments for £47m and had already paid a 10pc deposit before issuing a profits warning earlier this year. London & Stamford, which is based in Guernsey and led by Raymond Mould and Patrick Vaughan, has paid £41.4m for 142 one and two-bedroom flats, four three-bedroom flats and 98 parking bays.

Arsenal took on debts of more than £130m to fund the conversion of its former home ground into a residential development but came under pressure as buyers that had paid deposits delayed or failed to complete purchases.

The club still had £123.6m of debt on the development at the end of the financial year to May, though the sum has since been cut to £47.1m following a series of sales.

Analysts at KBC Peel Hunt, broker and adviser to London & Stamford, said that "even today" the market value of the flats acquired by the property group was about £500 per square foot. That compared with a purchase cost for London & Stamford of about £400. The company intends to let out the flats, which are all vacant, over the coming year and sell them over the longer term.

Arsenal said on Monday it had refinanced the remainder of the debt on the Highbury Square development, with the repayment date pushed back eight months from next April to December next year.

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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #445 on: January 26, 2018, 06:15:43 pm »
Another myth is that Arsenal funded the Stadium through massive profits on the Highbury square development. I don't want to get personal Peter but if you are going to try and pass yourself off as an expert on Stadium developments then you really shouldn't be posting half truths.

snip

Rather than post up a second hand news article which is from before all the sales were complete, how about you take a look in their accounts and provide us with the information as to if they made massive profits or not. I mean if you want to dispute his point properly then how about doing it, rather than half arsing it and hoping no one calls you out on it.

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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #446 on: January 26, 2018, 06:18:44 pm »
Also, I think you must have clearly seen articles from a year later where Arsenal made a fairly large profit from the Highbury apartments, but instead chose to pick the 2009 article as it suits your agenda.

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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #447 on: January 26, 2018, 06:35:04 pm »
Also, I think you must have clearly seen articles from a year later where Arsenal made a fairly large profit from the Highbury apartments, but instead chose to pick the 2009 article as it suits your agenda.

The land was valued at £70m and they spent £130m redeveloping the 650 Apartments. They sold 142 apartments for £41.4m so the maths isn't difficult. 
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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #448 on: January 26, 2018, 06:46:12 pm »
The Anfield Road End will be done and done very quickly, takes the stadium up toward 62,000.  Will also have some level of hospitality in it

« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 06:54:25 pm by sonofkenny »

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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #449 on: January 26, 2018, 06:56:02 pm »
Another myth is that Arsenal funded the Stadium through massive profits on the Highbury square development. I don't want to get personal Peter but if you are going to try and pass yourself off as an expert on Stadium developments then you really shouldn't be posting half truths.


Nobody said the apartments were the sole source of funds for the Emirates It is in fact quite a complex picture of loans, bonds, investment from player sales, refinancing, abortive joint ventures and subsequent residential sales.

But anyway, your point was that the one piece of land was a stone's throw from the other and that there was no advantage in land cost in moving (to paraphrase). Fact is one was a former football ground with a certain cachet in an already upmarket residential area and the other a dump (possibly literally or a gas works, I can't be bothered to look it up again). Scratch any part of any surface of what you say and it turns out to be complete nonsense.

Here's your favourite source on the subject. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirates_Stadium. Do try and read past the headlines.

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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #450 on: January 26, 2018, 07:08:14 pm »
Nobody said the apartments were the sole source of funds for the Emirates It is in fact quite a complex picture of loans, bonds, investment from player sales, refinancing, abortive joint ventures and subsequent residential sales.

But anyway, your point was that the one piece of land was a stone's throw from the other and that there was no advantage in land cost in moving (to paraphrase). Fact is one was a former football ground with a certain cachet in an already upmarket residential area and the other a dump (possibly literally or a gas works, I can't be bothered to look it up again). Scratch any part of any surface of what you say and it turns out to be complete nonsense.

Here's your favourite source on the subject. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirates_Stadium. Do try and read past the headlines.

Part of that dump you talk about was a waste recycling centre and guess what as part of the s106 conditions Arsenal paid £60m for a new waste recycling centre. They also agreed to pay £7.6m for transport improvements.

So it is completely disingenuous to suggest that Arsenal benefited hugely from their London location.

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Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #451 on: January 26, 2018, 07:34:33 pm »
Part of that dump you talk about was a waste recycling centre and guess what as part of the s106 conditions Arsenal paid £60m for a new waste recycling centre. They also agreed to pay £7.6m for transport improvements.

So it is completely disingenuous to suggest that Arsenal benefited hugely from their London location.

I'm glad you looked it up because I couldn't be bothered - ancient history as it. Compared to Highbury, it certainly was a dump. They also paid to clean the dump up of hazardous material, they paid for road improvements and they paid for lots of other things - principally for 60,000 seats when they could have built 20,000 seats for the same effect

But as you said, they sold apartments and they sold their interest in the development of apartments for a reasonably large sum of money (go on, look it up) in a prestigious borough of London.

Something that was never going to happen in Liverpool. Even something that Liverpool would never have allowed.

They also had a tube line running right there and their share of 12m people and the hospitality budgets of the fattest cat financial centre in Europe (at the time) on their doorstep to pay the price.

And there's an interesting little gem from Wenger in there (if you read it at all or read that far), bemoaning the fact that in France, the club pays very little for stadiums. That's not going to happen here either. Nor will a World Cup help us out (at least six German clubs including the Allianz) or a Commonwealth Games (City) or an Olympics (West Ham - much good it's done them) or any of the other little helping hands that some other clubs benefit from. Spurs (580 apartments? 180 bed hotel? Retail? - look it up).

A sugar daddy at Chelsea apparently funding the lot...
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 07:53:30 pm by Peter McGurk »

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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #452 on: January 26, 2018, 07:53:16 pm »
Mostly now a discussion of the financing of the arsenal stadium...

Fucking ridiculous.

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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #453 on: January 26, 2018, 07:58:39 pm »
Mostly now a discussion of the financing of the arsenal stadium...

Fucking ridiculous.



Yep - so fucking tedious - wish the pair of them would take it to pm.
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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #454 on: January 26, 2018, 08:08:28 pm »
Mostly now a discussion of the financing of the arsenal stadium...

Fucking ridiculous.



How is it ridiculous though.

The misconception that we couldn't afford a Stadium, we can't afford to redevelop a huge Stadium that would meet our needs is based on myths.

Firstly we had the myth that Arsenal has tickets that cost £90+, then it is the myth that the Emirates was funded by selling of the Highbury square apartments. Both have been debunked.

The bottom line is that we have had to close the Season ticket waiting list because there is literally no hope that the existing people on that list will all get tickets. We have a turnover of £400m+ that will be boosted by our participation in the CL and the next TV deal.

 
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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #455 on: January 26, 2018, 08:14:55 pm »
How is it ridiculous though.

The misconception that we couldn't afford a Stadium, we can't afford to redevelop a huge Stadium that would meet our needs is based on myths.

Firstly we had the myth that Arsenal has tickets that cost £90+, then it is the myth that the Emirates was funded by selling of the Highbury square apartments. Both have been debunked.

The bottom line is that we have had to close the Season ticket waiting list because there is literally no hope that the existing people on that list will all get tickets. We have a turnover of £400m+ that will be boosted by our participation in the CL and the next TV deal.

 
Ticket pricing is important.

Discussion of the funding of Arsenal’s stadium is nothing to do with our club.  Bickering over it is pathetic.

It has no relevance, and is of no interest. 
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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #456 on: January 26, 2018, 08:18:19 pm »
Mostly now a discussion of the financing of the arsenal stadium...

Fucking ridiculous.

Totally agree, I made a short post agreeing with the whole post then echoing the point below about financing a £1bn stadium, and making the point that I can't think of a new stadium that's been built from scratch and without subsidy by a club at the top of the English game. I then made the fatal error of mentioning Arsenal.
We then get the fucking records from the North London planning department and examples of stadia that cost about £30m, as well as a massive assumption that Spurs will just continue as they are.

I'm interested in getting the next generation into the habit of going to the match at affordable prices. If that means we sell a few more corporates to build the business case then so be it. But for all the pieces to fall into place we need to persuade FSG that having the next generation of fans creating a great atmosphere is better business than an ageing increasingly silent crowd........



The stadium thing is fascinating. On what planet would it be sensible to go and build a brand new stadium which would cost the thick end of a billion pounds? That's got nothing to do with the owners not wanting to put their money where their mouth is. That's sensible owners (which is what we asked for) being sensible. The only owners who do that, or go and sign big name players on huge wages for the bench, are sugar daddies who don't have a care about money. Which we keep saying we don't want. So what is it?

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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #457 on: January 26, 2018, 08:22:21 pm »
Myth?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/29634838


There certainly looks like tickets over £90 to me.
https://www.arsenal.com/tickets/non-member-ticket-prices

You are very strange, talking down Arsenal prices and quoting hospitality prices for LFC as a rebuttal. You focus on a goal and bend any fact or figure to fit your narrative. Even if you are right about something, your rhetorical contortions are infuriating. Overall it all gets very wearying and tedious.


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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #458 on: January 26, 2018, 08:31:14 pm »
Myth?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/29634838


There certainly looks like tickets over £90 to me.
https://www.arsenal.com/tickets/non-member-ticket-prices

You are very strange, talking down Arsenal prices and quoting hospitality prices for LFC as a rebuttal. You focus on a goal and bend any fact or figure to fit your narrative. Even if you are right about something, your rhetorical contortions are infuriating. Overall it all gets very wearying and tedious.



How am I strange, Peter posted that the minimum price at Arsenal was £90 I posted a link showing that Arsenal's ticket prices didn't start at £90 and actually quoted the same source as you. He apologised and admitted he was being lazy.

As for talking down Arsenal's prices let's look at the facts.

For last season the match day revenue for both Clubs were £68.8m for us and £100m for them.

Their average League attendance was 59,957 ours was 53,094.

They had the Champions League and we didn't.

They have a Stadium built with corporate in mind we don't

So looking at that for me the likelihood is that the average fan is paying a pretty similar amount for GA tickets.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 08:46:02 pm by Al 555 »
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Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #459 on: January 26, 2018, 08:52:27 pm »
How am I strange, Peter posted that the minimum price at Arsenal was £90 I posted a link showing that Arsenal's ticket prices didn't start at £90 and actually quoted the same source as you. He apologised and admitted he was being lazy.

You must be mistaken. I never apologise.

The Arsenal history is indeed tedious but only goes to show of another example of where additional financial support is needed to build a new stadium of any size, which additional support is not available to LFC.

If you want cheaper tickets, don't look to a new stadium or a bigger stadium. Everything from now on in will that much harder to do because of increased cost and lower ticket price expectations. You're going to have to be a lot cleverer than you've been so far to get that right.

Banging the drum against the owners is banging your head on that financial brick wall. When and if the ARE comes, it will have hospitality in it but only to replace what is there already (and to help pay for the loss and rebuild of the upper tier seats). So no real movement on ticket price there.

So far, the club has not allowed the stadium to impinge on its capabilities in the transfer market. It has kept the stadium separate and the stadium expansion is covering its own costs. In my view, which comes with some experience of the situation, the opportunity for this to get better is only going to come when the stadium debts are behind us because right now the club and FSG very rightly see the stadium expansion as a financial hurdle to get over to reach that point.


« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 09:01:16 pm by Peter McGurk »

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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #460 on: January 26, 2018, 09:24:29 pm »
You must be mistaken. I never apologise.

The Arsenal history is indeed tedious but only goes to show of another example of where additional financial support is needed to build a new stadium of any size, which additional support is not available to LFC.

Word of advice Peter I don't think you should be admitting that you were being lazy and then not apologizing. People might get the impression that you think it is okay to be lazy  ;D

If you want cheaper tickets, don't look to a new stadium or a bigger stadium. Everything from now on in will that much harder to do because of increased cost and lower ticket price expectations. You're going to have to be a lot cleverer than you've been so far to get that right.

Banging the drum against the owners is banging your head on that financial brick wall. When and if the ARE comes, it will have hospitality in it but only to replace what is there already (and to help pay for the loss and rebuild of the upper tier seats). So no real movement on ticket price there.

So far, the club has not allowed the stadium to impinge on its capabilities in the transfer market. It has kept the stadium separate and the stadium expansion is covering its own costs. In my view, which comes with some experience of the situation, the opportunity for this to get better is only going to come when the stadium debts are behind us because right now the club and FSG very rightly see the stadium expansion as a financial hurdle to get over to reach that point.

So basically you are saying that FSG should of been smarter and invested when it was cheaper and ticket price expectation was higher.

As for the Stadium impinging on our transfer spend have you seen our Net spend since we invested in the Main Stand expansion.
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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #461 on: January 26, 2018, 10:22:11 pm »

So basically you are saying that FSG should of been smarter and invested when it was cheaper and ticket price expectation was higher.


Not at all. They did the right thing as soon as was possible. In the real world, where pipe dreams are pipe dreams. Where there are no fairy godmothers or sugar daddies.

And it will be very hard to do otherwise until the debt on stadium expansion is gone.

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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #462 on: January 26, 2018, 10:38:32 pm »
Not at all. They did the right thing as soon as was possible. In the real world, where pipe dreams are pipe dreams. Where there are no fairy godmothers or sugar daddies.

And it will be very hard to do otherwise until the debt on stadium expansion is gone.

There you go again Peter.

We both know that Stadiums and Stadiums have a shelf life that is measured in decades not years. We also know that football inflation runs at a far higher rate than normal inflation.

The Main Stand over 20 years in year 1 is about 1.25% of our turnover. In year 20 it will be a youth players wages.
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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #463 on: January 27, 2018, 09:07:18 am »
The land was valued at £70m and they spent £130m redeveloping the 650 Apartments. They sold 142 apartments for £41.4m so the maths isn't difficult.

It clearly is difficult for you as you've got it completely and utterly wrong.

They made approx £130-150m profit from the Highbury scheme if you care to go through their accounts.

However you're too inclined to be sly and post a negative article from a poor year despite the fact you must have seen the positive ones when searching for it. Typical you though.

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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #464 on: January 27, 2018, 11:46:18 am »
It clearly is difficult for you as you've got it completely and utterly wrong.

They made approx £130-150m profit from the Highbury scheme if you care to go through their accounts.

However you're too inclined to be sly and post a negative article from a poor year despite the fact you must have seen the positive ones when searching for it. Typical you though.

Please explain how you can go through a set of accounts and come up with a vague figure of £130-£150m please Craig. The so called profit also completely ignores what they could of sold the land for without developing it plus the £60m cost of paying for a waste incinerator. At the time Arsenal paid the biggest s106 costs ever for a project of that size.

In essence the costs balanced each other out and Arsenal gained very little or nothing from their London location. Which brings us back to Liverpool yes if we had moved the ground into the park then we wouldn't of had a resale value for the land Anfield stood on but we were also able to buy the land for the new stadium far more cheaply.

Which brings us to where we are now with a stadium capacity that simply doesn't meet the needs of the fan base. A situation created by a series of owners and a situation that allows the current owners to artificially inflate ticket prices. The mantra is always the same we must compete, we have a smaller ground so we need to make up the revenue gap. That for me means charging prices that are simply too high for the area.

The solution is simple a Club with a turnover of £400m + should be quite capable of building a ground with a capacity that allows enough people to see the team play at reasonable prices. The reason it can't is that far too much of the money we spend either directly or indirectly goes out of the game through ridiculous wages and agents fees.

There needs to be a tightening up of the FFP rules and government intervention that prevents clubs exploiting their monopoly and charging outrageous prices for tickets. Ticket prices for away fans are pegged at £30 so it is possible. For me the easiest solution would be that part of the Premier League TV is ringfenced to subsidize ticket prices for all clubs. I would also like to see rules brought in that help clubs redevelop and expand their stadiums.

The changes needed will only occur though if people stop defending their clubs right to exploit the fans.In essence turkeys voting for Xmas. The insanity of football fans is probably best illustrated by their willingness to pay obscene prices. I can't think of anywhere else where consumers demand to pay more so why should it be like that in football.
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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #465 on: January 27, 2018, 12:53:34 pm »
I love the Arsenal myth about prime real estate.



Top right in Highbury and on the left is the Emirates. They are a stones throw away from each other. Given that the footprint of the Emirates dwarfs Highbury could you please explain how they have benefited from land prices especially considering the other things Arsenal had to pay for in the surrounding area to get planning permission.

As for a new Stadium the likes of Leicester, Southampton, Huddersfield, Brighton and Swansea don't seem to have had their progress hampered by new stadiums.

Then we have Spurs who are probably the best run Club in the Country who are quite happy to spend big money on a new ground.

As it goes I think the expansion of the Main Stand spelled the end of a new ground under FSG but that doesn't mean we shouldn't extend Anfield to get as many fans in as we possibly can.

Maybe we should look at what our competitors are doing.

In Spain Real and Barca are both embarking on 400m euro redevelopments of their existing stadiums whilst Atletico have just moved into a stunning new 67,000 capacity stadium.

Bayern have the stunning Allianz arena. In England Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea and West Ham have or will have new Stadiums. United have Old Trafford which holds 75,000 and generates £100m+ in match day income. Whilst City are currently expanding the Etihad to 61,000 with long term plans to rival United's capacity.

FSG made it clear what their plans were right from the start. Henry's email to other members of FSG that was released as part of the New York court case outlined their plans. To mimic Fenway Park, to spend around £100m on the Stadium to massively increase the corporate take and then to look to cash in on the TV revenue.

So maybe we should look at what they did at Fenway they inherited a Stadium that held 33,993 and have extended it to 37,731. What they have done is to massively increase the number of expensive seats and lounges. Out of 30 MLB teams they have the Ball park with the 26th biggest capacity.

So without an extended ARE we will be going the same way. United, Arsenal, West Ham and City already have bigger Stadiums and Spurs, Chelsea and even Everton could all have bigger Stadiums than us.

You look at our income and our fanbase and how can that possibly be right, even Celtic have a Stadium that holds north of 60k.

Over and over again it has been stated in this thread that we have a problem of demand massively outstripping supply. To us as fans that is a problem but for the owners is it a problem or is it just away to force up prices without spending further on Stadium infrastructure. 

For me it is immoral for a business to 'leverage fan affinity' as Fenway Sports Management call it. To hike prices because they operate a monopoly and we have no alternative.

Ticket prices are getting more and more ridiculous and all it is doing is funding ever more obscene wages and agents fees. So why not squabbling and looking to turn this into debates about the ownership or OOters and stick together back the likes of SOS and the FSF and look to make the authorities intervene.

Governments wouldn't allow utilities, TV companies or retailers to create a monopoly and then bleed their customers dry so why should Football be any different ?
Good post that Al who no one seems to have answered.

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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #466 on: January 27, 2018, 01:23:45 pm »
Please explain how you can go through a set of accounts and come up with a vague figure of £130-£150m please Craig. The so called profit also completely ignores what they could of sold the land for without developing it plus the £60m cost of paying for a waste incinerator. At the time Arsenal paid the biggest s106 costs ever for a project of that size.

The whole project was accounted for separately. If you'd even bothered to look once at their accounts you'd know this.


Quote
In essence the costs balanced each other out and Arsenal gained very little or nothing from their London location.

You've pulled this information from where.... please back it up.

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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #467 on: January 27, 2018, 01:28:06 pm »
Good post that Al who no one seems to have answered.

Because they don't have a monopoly. There are 92 professional teams in the PL and English Football League, and countless other professional and semi-professional teams beyond those.

There is a huge amount of choice within the market, and even more when you consider the wider sports and even entertainment markets which it is part of.

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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #468 on: January 27, 2018, 01:31:27 pm »
There you go again Peter.

We both know that Stadiums and Stadiums have a shelf life that is measured in decades not years. We also know that football inflation runs at a far higher rate than normal inflation.

The Main Stand over 20 years in year 1 is about 1.25% of our turnover. In year 20 it will be a youth players wages.

Can't detect any kind of point there. Just jabberings.

If (who knows??) you're talking about the cost of the stadium, whatever percentage of turnover it is has or whatever players' wages are in whatever year, have no relevance to the stadium's financial feasibility or the price of tickets.

You just dream up what one mad cap theory after another.

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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #469 on: January 27, 2018, 01:51:08 pm »
The whole project was accounted for separately. If you'd even bothered to look once at their accounts you'd know this.

Your reply has absolutely nothing to do with the post you quoted. The point is if you have read the accounts and it is accounted for separately then why the hell are you posting a vague figure like £130m to £150m.

You've pulled this information from where.... please back it up.

As you say Craig please back it up. A link to the accounts where it states that they either made £130m or £150m would be great. Strangely enough though I have never seen a set of accounts that has vague figures in it.

Or we could just do what other posters have asked and get back to discussing ticket prices.  ;)
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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #470 on: January 27, 2018, 01:55:33 pm »
Because they don't have a monopoly. There are 92 professional teams in the PL and English Football League, and countless other professional and semi-professional teams beyond those.

There is a huge amount of choice within the market, and even more when you consider the wider sports and even entertainment markets which it is part of.

Look let's make this absolutely crystal clear a Football fan has a choice of 92 Clubs. A Liverpool fan has a choice of one Club and that is why it is a monopoly. That is why we have fans jetting in from all corners of the globe, you know places that have professional football clubs.

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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #471 on: January 27, 2018, 02:03:07 pm »
There needs to be a tightening up of the FFP rules and government intervention that prevents clubs exploiting their monopoly and charging outrageous prices for tickets. Ticket prices for away fans are pegged at £30 so it is possible. For me the easiest solution would be that part of the Premier League TV is ringfenced to subsidize ticket prices for all clubs. I would also like to see rules brought in that help clubs redevelop and expand their stadiums.

Agree with this whole-heartedly.

The changes needed will only occur though if people stop defending their clubs right to exploit the fans.In essence turkeys voting for Xmas. The insanity of football fans is probably best illustrated by their willingness to pay obscene prices. I can't think of anywhere else where consumers demand to pay more so why should it be like that in football.

And this is where you loose me and countless others... Sorry Al but your message becomes lost due to your intransigent stance, the way you twist things and your obvious myopia when it comes to our owners. You assume others are defending them because we either love them or are too stupid to see. It's not about that... prices have increased over the years in every facet of our lives and I am fed up with it. It is unfair, especially when our wages don't increase proportionately, but to try and blame it solely on FSG whilst not seeing the bigger picture alienates your message  and paints you as a man on a crusade.  And any semblance of any logical or rational points you have, become lost as the message is diluted due to the messenger.

The thing is you make some good points... its just a shame it gets lost in the whole vitriol.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 02:05:20 pm by JCB »

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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #472 on: January 27, 2018, 02:09:20 pm »
Not at all. They did the right thing as soon as was possible. In the real world, where pipe dreams are pipe dreams. Where there are no fairy godmothers or sugar daddies.

And it will be very hard to do otherwise until the debt on stadium expansion is gone.
Can't detect any kind of point there. Just jabberings.

If (who knows??) you're talking about the cost of the stadium, whatever percentage of turnover it is has or whatever players' wages are in whatever year, have no relevance to the stadium's financial feasibility or the price of tickets.

You just dream up what one mad cap theory after another.

The point you are making is that the debt on the Main Stand makes it hard for us. That is nonsense.

It only makes it hard for us if the Club looks to pay off the debt in the shortest possible time. It only makes it hard for us if FSG are looking for us to buy them one asset before we get the chance to buy them another.

We both know that the Main Stand will generate far more in terms of improved income than it's cost over it's lifetime. It is a positive cash stream net any repayments. So to suggest that it effects our ability to expand other parts of the ground is nonsense.
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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #473 on: January 27, 2018, 02:14:19 pm »
Please explain how you can go through a set of accounts and come up with a vague figure of £130-£150m please Craig. The so called profit also completely ignores what they could of sold the land for without developing it plus the £60m cost of paying for a waste incinerator. At the time Arsenal paid the biggest s106 costs ever for a project of that size.


You really don't get how any of this works do you.

The development of Highbury is a stand alone development, which because football is football and most football directors know very little about property, was used to either part-fund or part-assist with cash flow on a new stadium. The financial feasibility of each was nevertheless independent. The profit from Highbury became just a.n.other source of funds (at low cost), helping the club to fund a new stadium. In a saner world, the club should and would have taken the money and ploughed it into their core business - the football team.

BTW, underdeveloped land without planning permission is worth very little in comparison with a fully developed and sold out scheme. It is why developers develop.

So, it will have made what it made. Flats sold on en bloc to secondary developers or managers are very often discounted. One of the reasons why they are sold at discount is because for whatever reason sales are slow and the costs in the cash flow are starting to hurt.  I believe the 142 flats sold in this way were discounted by about 20%, which is actually not that bad given that 2009 as the year you chose was in the heart of the deepest recession since Adam was a lad. There would have been much better sales in the boom times before and have probably picked up since. Of course the stadium was finished in 2006.

At the time Arsenal paid the biggest s106 costs ever for a project of that size.

Really? I'll enjoy watching you prove that (how far back do you think 'ever' goes? Still, this is an argument against building - anything actually (new or redeveloped) so I again, I really don't see what point you are trying to make (Please. Don't bother to try to explain)


In essence the costs balanced each other out and Arsenal gained very little or nothing from their London location. Which brings us back to Liverpool yes if we had moved the ground into the park then we wouldn't of had a resale value for the land Anfield stood on but we were also able to buy the land for the new stadium far more cheaply.


So the waste recycling plant (and the decontamination of the land) would have been a burden on the financial feasibility of the stadium. It would have also depressed the price of the land. If we don't know what was paid for the land with the recycling centre, we don't know what it would have been without it either. For sure, on that site it would have been a cost that had to be paid. Luckily for Arsenal, they had the development of Highbury to help.


The solution is simple a Club with a turnover of £400m + should be quite capable of building a ground with a capacity that allows enough people to see the team play at reasonable prices. The reason it can't is that far too much of the money we spend either directly or indirectly goes out of the game through ridiculous wages and agents fees.


The stadium's financial feasibility is a completely separate assessment of whether the cost can be covered by the revenue. It has nothing to do with the club's turnover. Newer and bigger stadiums only push the price UP, because... each seat is more expensive to build than the last and hugely more expensive than redeveloping what you've already got.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 02:19:47 pm by Peter McGurk »

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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #474 on: January 27, 2018, 02:18:03 pm »
Agree with this whole-heartedly.

And this is where you loose me and countless others... Sorry Al but your message becomes lost due to your intransigent stance, the way you twist things and your obvious myopia when it comes to our owners. You assume others are defending them because we either love them or are too stupid to see. It's not about that... prices have increased over the years in every facet of our lives and I am fed up with it. It is unfair, especially when our wages don't increase proportionately, but to try and blame it solely on FSG whilst not seeing the bigger picture alienates your message  and paints you as a man on a crusade.  And any semblance of any logical or rational points you have, become lost as the message is diluted due to the messenger.

The thing is you make some good points... its just a shame it gets lost in the whole vitriol.


Except I haven't singled out FSG. I have made it clear from the outset that our particular problems with supply and demand have come about because of mistakes and a lack of vision from a series of owners with David Moores being the worst example for me.

Furthermore how can it be a vitriolic attack on FSG when the whole thrust of my argument is that we need intervention that will help fans of all clubs. This is a national problem and requires a national solution that would be the case if we were owned by ABC or XYZ.

The only relevance regarding FSG is that they just happen to be our owners if I was a United fan it would be the Glazers, if I was a Arsenal fan it would be Kroenke. That is because they are our point of contact. 
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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #475 on: January 27, 2018, 02:18:09 pm »
The point you are making is that the debt on the Main Stand makes it hard for us. That is nonsense.

It only makes it hard for us if the Club looks to pay off the debt in the shortest possible time. It only makes it hard for us if FSG are looking for us to buy them one asset before we get the chance to buy them another.

We both know that the Main Stand will generate far more in terms of improved income than it's cost over it's lifetime. It is a positive cash stream net any repayments. So to suggest that it effects our ability to expand other parts of the ground is nonsense.

Ok. Look. Everyone is bored with this shit now - me included. Take a course. Spend thirty years in property. Do something so that you know just a little bit of what you're talking about.

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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #476 on: January 27, 2018, 02:36:56 pm »
Ok. Look. Everyone is bored with this shit now - me included. Take a course. Spend thirty years in property. Do something so that you know just a little bit of what you're talking about.

Arsenal secured funding for the Emirates with a 14 year commercial loan that was replaced with long term bonds and a 15 year sponsorship deal with Emirates.

Everton are looking to fund their Stadium with a loan from the council over 20 years.

Wembley was funded with a series of 10 year debentures which were then converted to a loan.

So please explain why the Main Stand has to paid off ASAP.
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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #477 on: January 27, 2018, 02:45:28 pm »
Except I haven't singled out FSG. I have made it clear from the outset that our particular problems with supply and demand have come about because of mistakes and a lack of vision from a series of owners with David Moores being the worst example for me.

Furthermore how can it be a vitriolic attack on FSG when the whole thrust of my argument is that we need intervention that will help fans of all clubs. This is a national problem and requires a national solution that would be the case if we were owned by ABC or XYZ.

The only relevance regarding FSG is that they just happen to be our owners if I was a United fan it would be the Glazers, if I was a Arsenal fan it would be Kroenke. That is because they are our point of contact.

 :)  And here you go trying to twist things yet again... I won't bother trying to explain and counter your points. I could but it would be futile.

The thing is you had me hooked throughout the original post and I found myself agreeing with a lot of it -  as I have with some of your other posts  in this tread. It's just that at some point you always cross a line that pushes the neutral rawkite further away. 

As I said, its a shame because you do make some good points.

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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #478 on: January 27, 2018, 07:37:22 pm »
What can fsg do to please al? I think an interest free loan of a few hundred million, repayable upon sale? But then it'll tank the value as the club will have a huge debt, albeit to the owners? I genuinely don't understand what the owners need to do differently.

1) extend the Annie road as much as possible

2) work with and pressure other clubs to reduce ticket prices across the board so noone is at a competitive disadvantage by blinking first. Maybe start out baby steps like each club guarantees a few thousand local and a few thousand under 21 tickets per game at 30 quid or less?

3) ensure no money is taken out of the club. Profit comes upon sale.

Sounds good to me.
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Re: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic
« Reply #479 on: January 27, 2018, 11:43:57 pm »
Spend some time in running a football club PMG. Spend your business knowledge with a true passion of the club. I can recommend it
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