Author Topic: A change in Venezuela?  (Read 47895 times)

Offline Johnny B. Goode

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #160 on: January 15, 2019, 11:03:21 pm »
That fear of communism was rational. Just as the fear of fascism was rational. Those places were human-rights hell holes.

I can't believe anyone looking in at the self-inflicted mess of Venezuela is talking about "narratives". Chavez was bent on a dictatorship as soon as he won power. Despite being oil rich he and his corrupt cronies somehow ran the economy into the ground. A kleptocracy I suppose you'd call it.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? The fear of communism was not 'rational' in the 1960s in Latin America, and it is not 'communism' that led Venezuela towards where it is now. And, again, acknowledging the humanitarian costs of the situation in Venezuela does not preclude a geopolitical debate.

Narratives do matter. They justify and normalise political actions. We're not far away from the US feeling entitled, with the support of 'left liberals', to invade Venezuela and co-opt the country's economy. People are starving, so it must be fine, yeah? No, it's a false dichotomy that is supported by the polarisation you yourself are espousing.
 
EDIT: Needless to say your view of Chavez is incredibly simplistic. He did a lot of good and bad things, but has been portrayed as the devil incarnate for decades. I wonder who he must have upset...


« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 11:11:11 pm by Johnny B. Goode »
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Offline Johnny B. Goode

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #161 on: January 15, 2019, 11:07:45 pm »
Did you actually read it?



Your article is just as damning of the Chavistas in general and Maduro in particular for the destruction of the Venezuelan economy.

Yes - my point here is not to defend Chavistas and Maduro. But I guess the polarisation is such that I'm seemingly thrown into that camp almost automatically. Let me reiterate, then: Maduro is a bastard, his government is a disaster. That's been established.

The 'humanitarian crisis' in Venezuela is a political choice of powerful actors, as is the narrative that emphasises its human costs. US sanctions have exacerbated an already bad situation because, yes, Maduro is incredibly incompetent. That the role of the US is constantly underplayed in the media is an indication of the interests behind mainstream narratives. Anglophone media has a long history of being very selective in its 'outrage', always castigating left-leaning governments whilst giving right-wing authoritarians a leeway...I wonder why.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 11:09:20 pm by Johnny B. Goode »
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Offline classycarra

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #162 on: January 15, 2019, 11:12:33 pm »
Yes - my point here is not to defend Chavistas and Maduro. But I guess the polarisation is such that I'm seemingly thrown into that camp almost automatically. Let me reiterate, then: Maduro is a bastard, his government is a disaster. That's been established.

The 'humanitarian crisis' in Venezuela is a political choice of powerful actors, as is the narrative that emphasises its human costs. US sanctions have exacerbated an already bad situation because, yes, Maduro is incredibly incompetent. That the role of the US is constantly underplayed in the media is an indication of the interests behind mainstream narratives. Anglophone media has a long history of being very selective in its 'outrage', always castigating left-leaning governments whilst giving right-wing authoritarians a leeway...I wonder why.

Last week you were complaining about anglophone media being outraged abut right-wing authoritarian Bolsonaro, weren't you?

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #163 on: January 15, 2019, 11:18:59 pm »

Narratives do matter. They justify and normalise political actions. We're not far away from the US feeling entitled, with the support of 'left liberals', to invade Venezuela and co-opt the country's economy. People are starving, so it must be fine, yeah? No, it's a false dichotomy that is supported by the polarisation you yourself are espousing.

Your post bears no relation to reality.
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Offline Johnny B. Goode

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #164 on: January 15, 2019, 11:24:13 pm »
Last week you were complaining about anglophone media being outraged abut right-wing authoritarian Bolsonaro, weren't you?

I mean, I do find Anglophone media to be an absolute disaster when it comes to Latin America, but they're not a monolithic group. If you see, for instance, how Dilma Rousseff's impeachment (coup) was portrayed in essentially every media outlet, from more left-leaning ones like The Guardian to the liberal The Economist, you quickly realise that they care about democracy insofar as it maintains the neo-liberal status quo. Nevermind the several irregularities surrounding the process, the man who would come into power in her place was as 'liberal' as they come and the economy was absolutely tanked. So it's all good.

Bolsonaro poses a problem because he's very close to 'illiberal democracy', which can, more out of clumsiness than ideology, disturb this status quo. Then you'll get 'liberal left' outlets coming out against him, but there's still a great deal of sympathy for the guy in more 'classical liberal' outlets like The Economist and the Americas Quarterly, where Bolsonaro is portrayed as someone who does have good ideas and a good opportunity to change Brazil (i.e. pass draconian reforms. See https://twitter.com/theeconomist/status/1080893334581923841?lang=en and https://www.ft.com/content/ab6d338a-09f8-11e9-9fe8-acdb36967cfc ). Paulo Guedes, a Chicago-trained economist, was appointed by Bolsonaro to serve as his Minister of Economy in an obvious 'marriage' of convenience to keep the markets happy enough. The 'free world' and everything that comes with it ensures, firstly, that capital is free, and Latin America is their backyard.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 11:58:55 pm by Johnny B. Goode »
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Offline Lush is the best medicine...

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #165 on: January 16, 2019, 10:47:53 pm »

Offline kennedy81

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #166 on: January 23, 2019, 07:32:04 pm »
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/23/enezuela-trump-president-juan-guaido-maduro-recognition-news-latest

So Trump is getting behind this Guaido guy. He seems to be like some sort of Venezuelan Macron? Largely centrist. Would that be about right?
Clearly Maduro has to go. That country is a shambles.

Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #167 on: January 23, 2019, 07:53:51 pm »
A bunch of South American countries, incl. Chile, Brazil and Colombia are recognizing Guaido as the  leader of Venezuela, Mexico being a notable exception among OAS countries

Offline It's Jimmy Corkhill

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #168 on: January 23, 2019, 08:21:40 pm »
A bunch of South American countries, incl. Chile, Brazil and Colombia are recognizing Guaido as the  leader of Venezuela, Mexico being a notable exception among OAS countries

Standard.

See the CIA in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's.....money will be funneled to them now and pretty soon, there'll be a right-wing barn-pot installed and McDonald's will be opening 10 stores in the capital.
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Offline J_Kopite

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #169 on: January 23, 2019, 09:50:38 pm »
Standard.

See the CIA in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's.....money will be funneled to them now and pretty soon, there'll be a right-wing barn-pot installed and McDonald's will be opening 10 stores in the capital.

Better than to starve tbf

Offline Lady_brandybuck

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #170 on: January 23, 2019, 10:04:20 pm »
Change is coming bitches!

Standard.

See the CIA in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's.....money will be funneled to them now and pretty soon, there'll be a right-wing barn-pot installed and McDonald's will be opening 10 stores in the capital.

That is soooooooooooooo 2002... We already have McNasty's in Venezuela thanks. This is not about the US forcing a change. Guaido is doing what the constitution says it should be done. December elections were a farce and Maduro is a ilegitimate president. When he was swon into office on January 10th he borke the law. A law that now Guaido (president of the national assembly which is the only legitimate power left in the country) is taking as reference for what he's doing.

Hopefully my country will be free again soon.

ABAJO LA DICTADURA
"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #171 on: January 23, 2019, 10:07:37 pm »
Change is coming bitches!

That is soooooooooooooo 2002... We already have McNasty's in Venezuela thanks. This is not about the US forcing a change. Guaido is doing what the constitution says it should be done. December elections were a farce and Maduro is a ilegitimate president. When he was swon into office on January 10th he borke the law. A law that now Guaido (president of the national assembly which is the only legitimate power left in the country) is taking as reference for what he's doing.

Hopefully my country will be free again soon.

ABAJO LA DICTADURA
Let’s hope so Kat.  It’s been an utterly horrendous time.

My concern is that new governments tend to follow the same patterns as the old ones just with different clothes on.

Your country has suffered enough at the hands of liars cheats and thieves.
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Offline 24/7

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #172 on: January 23, 2019, 10:08:52 pm »
Change is coming bitches!

That is soooooooooooooo 2002... We already have McNasty's in Venezuela thanks. This is not about the US forcing a change. Guaido is doing what the constitution says it should be done. December elections were a farce and Maduro is a ilegitimate president. When he was swon into office on January 10th he borke the law. A law that now Guaido (president of the national assembly which is the only legitimate power left in the country) is taking as reference for what he's doing.

Hopefully my country will be free again soon.

ABAJO LA DICTADURA
Boom. That's right. The man is simply defending (what's left of) the constitution.

Offline Lady_brandybuck

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #173 on: January 23, 2019, 10:22:37 pm »
Let’s hope so Kat.  It’s been an utterly horrendous time.

My concern is that new governments tend to follow the same patterns as the old ones just with different clothes on.

Your country has suffered enough at the hands of liars cheats and thieves.

My friend, first things first. Let get rid of this lot. Then we can focus on what's next
"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #174 on: January 23, 2019, 10:23:23 pm »
My friend, first things first. Let get rid of this lot. Then we can focus on what's next
Of course. 
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #175 on: January 23, 2019, 10:24:39 pm »
My friend, first things first. Let get rid of this lot. Then we can focus on what's next

Indeed

Offline DelTrotter

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #176 on: January 23, 2019, 10:28:18 pm »
Hope things get sorted for everyone there soon, the people deserve so much better. And selfishly there's an awesome tattoo artist in Caracas I want some work done by.

Offline OneTouchFooty

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #177 on: January 23, 2019, 10:32:43 pm »
Hopefully real change can come to Venezuela and that they rid themselves of this corrupt despot.. but without foreign interfering powers trying to manipulate the situation to their own advantage.

Offline conman

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #178 on: January 23, 2019, 10:34:01 pm »
My friend, first things first. Let get rid of this lot. Then we can focus on what's next
I'm hoping it all goes well for you and your people Kat.

Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #179 on: January 23, 2019, 10:36:59 pm »
My friend, first things first. Let get rid of this lot. Then we can focus on what's next

Does the military look like it is turning on Maduro ?
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Offline classycarra

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #180 on: January 23, 2019, 10:38:07 pm »
My friend, first things first. Let get rid of this lot. Then we can focus on what's next

All the best, Lady B

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #181 on: January 23, 2019, 10:40:47 pm »
Standard.

See the CIA in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's.....money will be funneled to them now and pretty soon, there'll be a right-wing barn-pot installed and McDonald's will be opening 10 stores in the capital.
inflation was 1,000,000% last year, think most will be fine with anyone who helps kill the failure of Chavez/maduro. And considering people have been encouraged to eat their pets, toilet paper is a luxury and they don’t have basic medicines who can honestly say that an American puppet would be worse than what they have now

My friend, first things first. Let get rid of this lot. Then we can focus on what's next
Indeed, all the best there
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 10:42:36 pm by Lush is the best medicine... »

Offline 24/7

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #182 on: January 23, 2019, 10:46:25 pm »
Does the military look like it is turning on Maduro ?
Apparently some members of the National Guard were arrested for allegedly plotting a coup. Additionally, Guaido has apparently promised clemency to any currently serving personnel who decide to turn against the ruling (ahem illegitimate) government.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #183 on: January 23, 2019, 11:46:00 pm »
Good luck Lady B. Hope we'll be toasting the end of the tyranny soon.
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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #184 on: January 24, 2019, 12:56:16 am »

Offline 24/7

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #185 on: January 24, 2019, 01:05:37 am »
Nah why fly all the way to Moscow when Cuba is much closer....

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #186 on: January 24, 2019, 09:26:19 am »
The great achievement of the Chavistas was, in the name of socialism, to marketise everything.

https://el-helicoide.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio.co.uk/en/index.html

(Obviously, for anyone still sentimental about the great experiment, it's much easier to blame the Yankees for strangling the Venezuelan economy and the BBC for gleefully fastening on to the results).
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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #187 on: January 24, 2019, 11:44:24 am »
Nice to see someone knowledgeable like Lady B to affirm truth from rhetoric.

We're lucky to have her here.

(and lucky she's a mad Red)
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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #188 on: January 24, 2019, 11:53:32 am »
Nice to see someone knowledgeable like Lady B to affirm truth from rhetoric.

We're lucky to have her here.

(and lucky she's a mad Red)
She's fucking awesome and has her finger well on the pulse. Ex-pat Venezuelans are very, very very in touch with what's happening back home and she has a very reliable network of friends and relatives still caught up in the fucking shambles. Whatever she says is happening is happening, no bias, just a fucking hard dose of reality - so listen to her, everyone, she knows her shit.

Offline Ray K

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #189 on: January 24, 2019, 12:06:57 pm »
Wonder if the Sinn Fein delegation that travelled to Maduro's inauguration recently have made it back yet?
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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #190 on: January 24, 2019, 12:20:34 pm »
Wonder if the Sinn Fein delegation that travelled to Maduro's inauguration recently have made it back yet?

They might have some freelance work in Colombia first, and no doubt have to explore the expanding market in Brazil

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #191 on: January 24, 2019, 06:18:13 pm »
Poor bastards deserve better than this,it looks like it will get very bloody or should that be bloodier.All the top Generals have come out for Maduro & if you can say anything for certain with regards to Venezuela it is that since the little bird died,the Generals hold the real power.
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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #192 on: January 24, 2019, 08:07:16 pm »
The people hold the real power. If only they used it.

Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #193 on: January 24, 2019, 08:15:28 pm »
The people hold the real power. If only they used it.

Tbf you can't fault their effort.
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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #194 on: January 24, 2019, 08:16:20 pm »
Poor bastards deserve better than this,it looks like it will get very bloody or should that be bloodier.All the top Generals have come out for Maduro & if you can say anything for certain with regards to Venezuela it is that since the little bird died,the Generals hold the real power.
as long as Nicky is still bunging them off with bog roll and their special exchange rate I wouldn’t expect that to change

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #195 on: January 24, 2019, 08:21:33 pm »
https://twitter.com/joselchilavert_/status/1088530155952324608?s=21

Probably the most relevant place to post this, the most effective ‘don’t do drugs kids’ post I’ve seen

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #196 on: January 24, 2019, 08:37:00 pm »
Standard.

See the CIA in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's.....money will be funneled to them now and pretty soon, there'll be a right-wing barn-pot installed and McDonald's will be opening 10 stores in the capital.

What a bizarre post

Offline 24/7

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #197 on: January 24, 2019, 08:50:04 pm »
What a bizarre post
Then he got his arse handed to him by a girl. Okay, fair enough, she's a very, very tall and feisty girl ;)

Offline Alan_X

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #198 on: January 24, 2019, 09:31:54 pm »
What a bizarre post

He's right though - the CIA have been playing the long game - install a populist Socialist leader in 2002, run the country into the ground for 12 years, give the leader cancer so he dies shortly after re-election then install a second-rate Chavez tribute act to take the country further down the toilet so that millions leave, people starve and inflation reaches 1,000,000%...

...and then, with the country in ruins... and only then... they pull their master stroke and put up an opposition challenge...

The CIA are all-powerful and can do anything, anywhere in the world. They can even manipulate the Russians to manipulate the US election to install an orange moron in the White House... and once he's there, the masterstroke is to undermine him by electing a Democrat House.

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Offline 24/7

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #199 on: January 24, 2019, 09:57:33 pm »
But for what purpose, Alan? What does the long game serve, specifically in relation to Venezuela? Please don't tell me that this is only about oil.