Topic: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General

[El Lobo]

I think POPs right. Martin Atkinson and Anthony Taylor are pretending to be fucking useless because they’re concerned about the impact on grassroots football and the lower levels

[4pool]

The Premier League has committed to improving supporter experience with VAR, but has resisted pressure to use pitchside monitors unless an exceptional case arises.

Both Premier League and PGMOL, the referees' body, committed to "improving the consistency of decisions, speeding up processes and increasing communication to fans" and said that VAR should be under constant review.

However, there was no commitment to make any significant change to VAR protocol for this season but research will take place to canvas the views of fans and stakeholders.

Representative of all 20 clubs met in central London on Thursday for the league's regular meeting, and the four-hour summit was dominated by VAR as refs' chief Mike Riley was quizzed.

Riley told the meeting that the accuracy of decisions on key match-changing incidents had been improved from 82% last season to 91%, but he accepted improvement is required and that "speed and consistency of decision-making are priority areas of work and will improve as the officials become more experienced with the technology and protocols."

Controversially, pitchside monitors, which by IFAB protocol should be used by the match referee to review subjective decisions, have not been called into action once in 120 Premier League games. But calls for a change in policy have been rejected because "the pace and tempo of Premier League football remains an important focus for clubs."

However, the Premier League has accepted that communication for supporters inside the stadia and watching around the world is a major issue, and it plans to provide more precise information via screens inside grounds and to broadcasters to clearly state the offence that is being checked.

A statement from the Football Supporters' Association said: "We've made clear to the Premier League that match-going fans have been left behind when it comes to VAR use in stadiums and it needs to be urgently addressed.

"We hope today's announcement leads to an improvement for fans in the stadium and we'd also like better communication via PA systems and even pitchside advertising hoardings."

The Premier League is the only major league in Europe to show the definitive clip or image for all overturned decisions with the ground. The average time to complete a check is 33 seconds, and the average time for an overturn is 75 seconds, with an average of 6.5 checks per game and an overturned decision once every 4.1 games.
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Can I just ask in what world do the PGMOL live in when they claim it only takes on average 33 seconds to do a check and 75 seconds to overturn?

Having been to a few matches recently, these figures do not compute. Makes me wonder about their other stats..

[PhaseOfPlay]

I think POPs right. Martin Atkinson and Anthony Taylor are pretending to be fucking useless because they’re concerned about the impact on grassroots football and the lower levels

It's the cunningest of plans. It was developed by a fox who was appointed Professor of Cunning at Oxford University.

[PhaseOfPlay]

The laws aren't different, how they are applied/decided are.

It's no different to goal line tech, mics to talk between linesmen and ref, the buzzy thing when a linesman flags, the spray for 10 yards, actually having linesmen, a 4th official, etc...all things not all levels of football have, but they simply aid the same rules/laws to be applied.

Having the VAR overrule the Centre Ref is a different law. That's what a number of people are advocating.

[CraigDS]

Having the VAR overrule the Centre Ref is a different law. That's what a number of people are advocating.

It's not overruling if they actually start telling the on pitch ref they were wrong though and then the ref have the humility to accept that another trained professional ref is able to make the right decision with the help of multiple angles, replays, etc.

Also, which rule is it regarding on pitch ref which this would be challenging?

[PhaseOfPlay]

It's not overruling if they actually start telling the on pitch ref they were wrong though and then the ref have the humility to accept that another trained professional ref is able to make the right decision with the help of multiple angles, replays, etc.

Also, which rule is it regarding on pitch ref which this would be challenging?

Law 5

[CraigDS]

Law 5

Which part of that prevents VAR telling a ref they are 100% wrong?

[4pool]

It's not overruling if they actually start telling the on pitch ref they were wrong though and then the ref have the humility to accept that another trained professional ref is able to make the right decision with the help of multiple angles, replays, etc.

Also, which rule is it regarding on pitch ref which this would be challenging?

Sorry...

What you want is the VAR official to rule as you see fit. Henceforth known as the Pep Guardiola rule.


On subjective calls, the Ref on the pitch makes those. Unless there is a "clear and obvious mistake" his decision stands and VAR will back the on pitch ref.

VAR is not there to re-referee a match or use the Pep Guardiola rule.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Which part of that prevents VAR telling a ref they are 100% wrong?

The VAR is free to tell the CR they made a mistake. That's not what overruling is. Overruling is when the CR makes a decision, and then VAR overturns it and forces the CR to change. That will violate Law 5 as it currently stands:

The decisions of the referee regarding facts connected with play, including whether or not a goal is scored and the result of the match, are final. The decisions of the referee, and all other match officials, must always be respected.

[rob1966]

The VAR is free to tell the CR they made a mistake. That's not what overruling is. Overruling is when the CR makes a decision, and then VAR overturns it and forces the CR to change. That will violate Law 5 as it currently stands:

There is no way I want VAR to overrule the CR.

I want it like rugby, if the linesman/CR are 100% certain, then they call it, no VAR involvement. Any doubt, they use VAR and the pitchside monitor to check. VAR should also be able to advise the ref to look again, but should never have the authority to overrule.

VAR is spoiling goals for everyone, TV or ground. Our first on Sunday, Oliver has a perfect view and rightly says no pen , we score a goal that is 100% clean, why the fuck is VAR involved? Second, no way can lineo call that, so let VAR check. Our 3rd and their goal, both clean, again keep VAR out of it.

PGMOL are idiots and the Premier League are a bunch of pricks for allowing VAR to be used as it is.

[PhaseOfPlay]

There is no way I want VAR to overrule the CR.

I want it like rugby, if the linesman/CR are 100% certain, then they call it, no VAR involvement. Any doubt, they use VAR and the pitchside monitor to check. VAR should also be able to advise the ref to look again, but should never have the authority to overrule.

VAR is spoiling goals for everyone, TV or ground. Our first on Sunday, Oliver has a perfect view and rightly says no pen , we score a goal that is 100% clean, why the fuck is VAR involved? Second, no way can lineo call that, so let VAR check. Our 3rd and their goal, both clean, again keep VAR out of it.

PGMOL are idiots and the Premier League are a bunch of pricks for allowing VAR to be used as it is.

Nothing wrong with that method at all. I'd also mic up the refs too.

[CraigDS]

Sorry...

What you want is the VAR official to rule as you see fit. Henceforth known as the Pep Guardiola rule.

Literally no idea what you're going on about in here anymore to be honest.

The VAR is free to tell the CR they made a mistake. That's not what overruling is. Overruling is when the CR makes a decision, and then VAR overturns it and forces the CR to change. That will violate Law 5 as it currently stands:

The decisions of the referee regarding facts connected with play, including whether or not a goal is scored and the result of the match, are final.

Well VAR already makes your interpretation of that untrue, because the refs decision on the pitch isn't final. The ref can be told by the VAR they were totally wrong and the decision can be changed.

to be honest I'm fine with the ref having the final decision after the VAR tells them they are 100% wrong. It would just be nice to know what the VAR decided and then if the on pitch ref still went against this. That way the real shite & bent refs can be shown for what they are.

[rob1966]

Nothing wrong with that method at all. I'd also mic up the refs too.

That's why I was always for VAR, as I thought they would look at rugby, see how they use it and copy it as much as possible. Having the back up takes the guess work away and should make the officials jobs easier.

[TheMissionary]

I want it like rugby, if the linesman/CR are 100% certain, then they call it, no VAR involvement. Any doubt, they use VAR and the pitchside monitor to check. VAR should also be able to advise the ref to look again, but should never have the authority to overrule.

I agree, rugby league has it spot on, and showing the views the Video Ref is getting on the big screen usually means the crowd have come to the decision themselves before the announcement is made.  I'd like the clock to stop when all this debating is going on too rather than adding time on at the end, but what's it got to do with me?  I'm just a fucking customer.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I agree, rugby league has it spot on, and showing the views the Video Ref is getting on the big screen usually means the crowd have come to the decision themselves before the announcement is made.  I'd like the clock to stop when all this debating is going on too rather than adding time on at the end, but what's it got to do with me?  I'm just a fucking customer.

The stopped clock thing is shite. I've done that. Game goes on for ages.

[rob1966]

The stopped clock thing is shite. I've done that. Game goes on for ages.

In the current form, no way stop the clock, but if VAR was used properly it wouldn't cause issues. Thinking about the City game, there was one decision that actually required VAR, which was our second goal. Villa game there was three, their goal, Bobbys disallowed goal and the not given penalty. At the MOST, these reviews should be taking 60 seconds, including time for the ref to run to the monitor. For some of the offsides, VAR could easily call it before the ref even reached the monitor.

[4pool]

Novel idea but how about the Ref goes to the monitor for each VAR review to go through the decision making with the VAR official for inside the box incidents ( not offside calls).

Instead of the Ref waiting for the VAR official to review the incident, determine "clear and obvious", then communicate to the on field Ref.

[Ziltoid]

Its an utter mess. MOTD2 said that the PGMOL informed them when asked that Silvas handball would have ruled out any goal if the ball had gone to Sterling (apt name for the greedy bastard) but isn't counted in the decision on Trent. Last time I looked a penalty was a goal scoring opportunity, so if the handball leads to a goal, then surely if it directly leads to a penalty, that has to be considered too??

They are quite strict in the PL on distance and if a ball is driven at a player a lot won't give it. It is in the laws that distance is a factor in the referees decision. Both of Trents were deemed that he didn't have time to react, the first looks a lot worse in slow mo - annoyance for me was Shearer saying Trents arm wasn't in a natural position, err what about Agueros arms then, is he trying to handle the ball or are his arms just there due to natural movement?

Spot on, heard this argument the other day.  How can you penalise Trent for having his arm in an "unnatural" position when there's a bloke next to him with his arm in an even worse "unnatural" position

[farawayred]

What I don't get in the image above, why is Lovren doing the robot dance when everyone else is trying to handle the ball?

[Ziltoid]

What I don't get in the image above, why is Lovren doing the robot dance when everyone else is trying to handle the ball?

Kraftwerk

[Barneylfc∗]

Spot on, heard this argument the other day.  How can you penalise Trent for having his arm in an "unnatural" position when there's a bloke next to him with his arm in an even worse "unnatural" position

What would you penalise Aguero for? The ball never hit his hand

[rob1966]

What would you penalise Aguero for? The ball never hit his hand

The pundits were all saying Trents arm was in an unnatural position, yet Agueros are spread wider and are higher, thus disproving this unnatural position argument.

[Son of Spion]

What I don't get in the image above, why is Lovren doing the robot dance when everyone else is trying to handle the ball?

[dimwit]

Kraftwerk

We are the Robots

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/oA7eOZ3d8ts" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/oA7eOZ3d8ts</a>

[Miltonred]

Having the VAR overrule the Centre Ref is a different law. That's what a number of people are advocating.

Having the power to overrule is definitely a big change that I simply cannot see ever happening, as well as being the wrong thing to do for all sorts of reasons.
Assistant referees often consult with the referee and change the initial view of a referee, so consultation is already a part of officiating. I don't see how VAR is any different in that respect.

I'm also of the view that a referee who has clearly seen an incident and judged it to be, or not to be an infringement, shouldn't necessarily accept the guidance from a VAR, unless that person offers some information he has not seen. A good example would be the TAA handling incident. Atkinson had a clear view, judged it not to be infringement, even though he saw it hit the arm, and waved off claims immediately. If the VAR had said, "hey look it struck his arm, I might have given handball there", I think the onfield referee can still stick to his judgment. The position of the arm being natural or unnatural is not, and cannot be clearly defined, so the onfield referee has to stick to his initial call.

[TepidT2O]

What is hand ball.

Left to me, I would hardly award any.

The CL final?  Not deliberate. 

Hechoz in Cardiff .... not deliberate...

They are hardly ever deliberate, and players are hardly ever using their arms to increase the size to help block the ball.


This idea of ‘natural’ positions? It’s fucking stupid.  You don’t run, or turn, or jump, or header, or shoot, or tackle with your arms by your side.

They move, they balance you, they follow your body. 

The whole thing is fucking nonsense governed by people who seem ignorant of how humans actually move.

[GreatEx]

Having the power to overrule is definitely a big change that I simply cannot see ever happening, as well as being the wrong thing to do for all sorts of reasons.
Assistant referees often consult with the referee and change the initial view of a referee, so consultation is already a part of officiating. I don't see how VAR is any different in that respect.

I'm also of the view that a referee who has clearly seen an incident and judged it to be, or not to be an infringement, shouldn't necessarily accept the guidance from a VAR, unless that person offers some information he has not seen. A good example would be the TAA handling incident. Atkinson had a clear view, judged it not to be infringement, even though he saw it hit the arm, and waved off claims immediately. If the VAR had said, "hey look it struck his arm, I might have given handball there", I think the onfield referee can still stick to his judgment. The position of the arm being natural or unnatural is not, and cannot be clearly defined, so the onfield referee has to stick to his initial call.

You mean Oliver, not Atkinson, right? The only way Atkinson wouldn't have penalised Trent is if he got so excited he swallowed his whistle.

[rob1966]

What is hand ball.

Left to me, I would hardly award any.

The CL final?  Not deliberate. 

Hechoz in Cardiff .... not deliberate...

They are hardly ever deliberate, and players are hardly ever using their arms to increase the size to help block the ball.


This idea of ‘natural’ positions? It’s fucking stupid.  You don’t run, or turn, or jump, or header, or shoot, or tackle with your arms by your side.

They move, they balance you, they follow your body. 

The whole thing is fucking nonsense governed by people who seem ignorant of how humans actually move.

There are a lot more deliberate handballs than you suggest. John Terry was a master of spreading his arms and blocking the ball and it is an art a lot of defenders have learnt

[Barneylfc∗]

What is hand ball.

Left to me, I would hardly award any.

The CL final?  Not deliberate. 

Hechoz in Cardiff .... not deliberate...

They are hardly ever deliberate, and players are hardly ever using their arms to increase the size to help block the ball.


This idea of ‘natural’ positions? It’s fucking stupid.  You don’t run, or turn, or jump, or header, or shoot, or tackle with your arms by your side.

They move, they balance you, they follow your body. 

The whole thing is fucking nonsense governed by people who seem ignorant of how humans actually move.

What is a foul?
How many times in a match do you see a foul given for the slightest contact? A player falling to the ground because their arm got touched? Falling over because they felt the slightest contact on their leg?
In rugby we see 16/17/18 stone men running at full speed and get met side on, face on with another big mother fucker and they still dont go down. I get that they're 2 totally different sports, but if a guy the size of a rugby player cant bring down someone while wrapping their arms around them, then how the hell does touching someone on the arm bring a footballer down?

[Filler.]

Hechoz in Cardiff .... not deliberate...

What!? What is this heresy!? That was one of the finest saves in FA Cup Final history!

[farawayred]

What is a foul?
How many times in a match do you see a foul given for the slightest contact? A player falling to the ground because their arm got touched? Falling over because they felt the slightest contact on their leg?
In rugby we see 16/17/18 stone men running at full speed and get met side on, face on with another big mother fucker and they still dont go down. I get that they're 2 totally different sports, but if a guy the size of a rugby player cant bring down someone while wrapping their arms around them, then how the hell does touching someone on the arm bring a footballer down?

You have clearly neglected to account for wind speed in your analysis.

[rob1966]

What is a foul?
How many times in a match do you see a foul given for the slightest contact? A player falling to the ground because their arm got touched? Falling over because they felt the slightest contact on their leg?
In rugby we see 16/17/18 stone men running at full speed and get met side on, face on with another big mother fucker and they still dont go down. I get that they're 2 totally different sports, but if a guy the size of a rugby player cant bring down someone while wrapping their arms around them, then how the hell does touching someone on the arm bring a footballer down?

Footballers are fannies.

[Alan_X]

What is a foul?
How many times in a match do you see a foul given for the slightest contact? A player falling to the ground because their arm got touched? Falling over because they felt the slightest contact on their leg?
In rugby we see 16/17/18 stone men running at full speed and get met side on, face on with another big mother fucker and they still dont go down. I get that they're 2 totally different sports, but if a guy the size of a rugby player cant bring down someone while wrapping their arms around them, then how the hell does touching someone on the arm bring a footballer down?

Touched on the arm - probably shouldn't go down. Tap on the leg or foot? Can easily bring someone down if they're running at speed.

Back in my schooldays, we learned how to tap someone's foot into their other foot, sending them sprawling. You could do it at walking pace if you got it right.

[Phatz]

You have clearly neglected to account for wind speed in your analysis.

Laden or unladen?

[rob1966]

Alan is right, it doesn't take much to trip someone running. Rugby players are expecting the hit and they are WAAAAAY stronger than footballers. What gets me is the theatrics in the fall. You get tripped and you aren't playing best man dead, you go down like a sack of shit, you don't fly through the air, legs folded under, head thrown back arms all over the place.

Heres Luke Shaw in an unexpected trip

[Dr. Beaker]

I remember a game between CFC and Barca where Terry and Ronaldinho were both playing. Ronaldinho was playing to his usual standard and was quite often fouled, behaving like footballers normally behave when fouled. However a situation then arose where he was going through a gap just outside the penalty area - if he got through, it was a goal. Terry spotted this and raced across to him at speed to body check Ronaldinho from the side at full speed - a formiddable force. Ronaldinho new it was coming and adjusted his centre of gravity (ala Dalglish) and Terry bounced off him (!) - goal. That shows what can be done when you know whats coming. I agree with the above though that when moving at full speed the slightest shove or ankle tap (which is easy to disguise as accidental, although anyone who has ever played knows, you know when you're too close) and your a goner - and their are no aeronautics, chin ploughs furrow in most undignified fashion.

[vblfc]

I think we are trying to use VAR as an added insurance with the offside trap on opponent free kicks inside our half. 
To defend the free-kick, our defense lines up on 18yrd line and pushes up just as the free kick is taken to render any advancing attackers very likely offside. Then I guess there's a good chance Allison sweeps up anything in behind. VAR should make this work better ie. We will sometimes need VAR for attackers crossing over defenders which are marginal.  We do this a lot now and commentators have pointed it out or said that sometimes it doesn't work  (offside isn't given) But it seems that's generally if there is no goal even when striker is clearly offside on replay (based on linesman instructions to not raise flag initially, if a marginal offside?). 
One exception was Villa goal, which itself was close to offside, but you could see the attacker timing his run from far out to beat the trap.
It has been very effective up to now but, have to be honest - it makes me nervous and needs discipline (and probably VAR) to execute correctly.

[rob1966]

One to get PoP fuming 

Could have done with it in the Bromley V Bristol City FA Cup replay. Bromley throw, takes it long, goes in - correctly disallowed as didn't touch anyone on the way in, Bromley players and crowd not happy, especially as they had a first half goal ruled off for offside - wrongly according to BT commentators.

[Nessy76]

Alan is right, it doesn't take much to trip someone running. Rugby players are expecting the hit and they are WAAAAAY stronger than footballers. What gets me is the theatrics in the fall. You get tripped and you aren't playing best man dead, you go down like a sack of shit, you don't fly through the air, legs folded under, head thrown back arms all over the place.

Heres Luke Shaw in an unexpected trip

You want to be sure that the ref sees it. If you have been fouled, you deserve a penalty. No point at all in pretending that you have not been fouled and giving up a chance to do what you are paid thousands of pounds a day for. So if you just quietly totter and keep your feet, who does that help? If you feel contact, go down, and make sure everyone sees it.

[rob1966]

You want to be sure that the ref sees it. If you have been fouled, you deserve a penalty. No point at all in pretending that you have not been fouled and giving up a chance to do what you are paid thousands of pounds a day for. So if you just quietly totter and keep your feet, who does that help? If you feel contact, go down, and make sure everyone sees it.

Yeah go down, but don't make it look like Tom Daly off top board