Author Topic: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General  (Read 1339314 times)

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Offline 4pool

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5321 on: November 6, 2019, 01:34:45 pm »
All this talk of PGMOL doing their damnedest to screw VAR over because they don't want it, is wide of the mark.

Pandoras box is open and VAR is here to stay in whatever form.

Mike Riley thought he would be cute and mitigate complaints by going down the "clear and obvious" route...aka don't over turn the pitch refs decision. And to appease supporters with the Referees use of pitchside monitors to be only for rare instances.

It's all gone Pete Tong for Riley and the PGMOL. Now what does he do? Gets meetings with the clubs and managers to discuss the uses of VAR so far. Wait for the reactionary response after the International break.
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Offline YJT

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5322 on: November 6, 2019, 02:30:40 pm »
Firstly, I feel FIFA need to clarify somlaws like handball. Most of the contentious decisions come from very similar situations, mostly blocked shots and blocked crosses. I've looked at the updated rules and apart from hands above the shoulders it is very vague what a natural position is. Interestingly distance to the ball and defenders being required to try and move their hands out of the way is not mentioned.
World Rugby made a 12 min video explaining how high tackles will be judged and sanctioned https://www.world.rugby/video/426430?lang=en
I would love for Fifa to make a similar video explaining how handballs are judged. Before there can be consistency with the refs there needs to be a consistent understanding about what handball is.
Similarly, to improve consistency and transparency the refs need to be mic'd up. No wonder we are up in arms when we see the VAR draw one line which shows our player being onside, then delete this and draw another line which shows him offside when we get given no official reason why this was done.
This moves me on to the offsides in general. I've read the explanation of the ESPN journalist but rather than excusing VAR, this only proves it is not fit for purpose for these tight decisions. Basically, the first line was drawn before they saw Firmino's foot which they then used as a baseline for the second analysis. If the same situation gives opposite decisions depending on which body parts are visible in the shot, then it is not fit for purpose.
Dermot Gallagher in the Echo while defending the system is quoted as saying "The technology is meant to be as it is and they said it is offside. I asked how accurate it is and they said it is as accurate as possible."
Well having a system as accurate as possible isn't good enough when you're deciding if a player is offside by inches. Linked to this the reason the refs don't use the monitor is because they don't want to slow down the game, but it is exactly these tight offside decisions which slow the game down most with very questionable results. In my opinion We should just stick a camera along the 5-yard area, penalty spot, penalty area and 10 yards outside the penalty area. If it isn't "clear & obvious" from these angles that the attacker is ahead of the defender, then in my opinion the attacker hasn't materially profited from his decision and the goal should stand

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5323 on: November 6, 2019, 02:42:53 pm »
I've looked at the updated rules and apart from hands above the shoulders it is very vague what a natural position is.

Anthony Taylor even thinks this is acceptable.
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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5324 on: November 6, 2019, 02:44:30 pm »
Anthony Taylor even thinks this is acceptable, depending on who the beneficiaries are that is 

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5325 on: November 6, 2019, 02:56:01 pm »
Firstly, I feel FIFA need to clarify somlaws like handball. Most of the contentious decisions come from very similar situations, mostly blocked shots and blocked crosses. I've looked at the updated rules and apart from hands above the shoulders it is very vague what a natural position is. Interestingly distance to the ball and defenders being required to try and move their hands out of the way is not mentioned.
World Rugby made a 12 min video explaining how high tackles will be judged and sanctioned https://www.world.rugby/video/426430?lang=en
I would love for Fifa to make a similar video explaining how handballs are judged. Before there can be consistency with the refs there needs to be a consistent understanding about what handball is.
Similarly, to improve consistency and transparency the refs need to be mic'd up. No wonder we are up in arms when we see the VAR draw one line which shows our player being onside, then delete this and draw another line which shows him offside when we get given no official reason why this was done.
This moves me on to the offsides in general. I've read the explanation of the ESPN journalist but rather than excusing VAR, this only proves it is not fit for purpose for these tight decisions. Basically, the first line was drawn before they saw Firmino's foot which they then used as a baseline for the second analysis. If the same situation gives opposite decisions depending on which body parts are visible in the shot, then it is not fit for purpose.
Dermot Gallagher in the Echo while defending the system is quoted as saying "The technology is meant to be as it is and they said it is offside. I asked how accurate it is and they said it is as accurate as possible."
Well having a system as accurate as possible isn't good enough when you're deciding if a player is offside by inches. Linked to this the reason the refs don't use the monitor is because they don't want to slow down the game, but it is exactly these tight offside decisions which slow the game down most with very questionable results. In my opinion We should just stick a camera along the 5-yard area, penalty spot, penalty area and 10 yards outside the penalty area. If it isn't "clear & obvious" from these angles that the attacker is ahead of the defender, then in my opinion the attacker hasn't materially profited from his decision and the goal should stand

If you go to the IFAB website (rather than FIFA or the FA), all of the LOTG are there in sections, with a lot of paragraphs in each law highlighted, and if you hover over the underlined sentence(s), it gives a clearer explanation of what they mean. For example, for handball, under "Fouls and Misconduct", hovering over the paragraphs opens a window with greater explanation (but which is still not 100% clear) - http://www.theifab.com/laws/chapter/32/section/92/



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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5326 on: November 6, 2019, 03:01:50 pm »
Sadly the FA are too pig headed to do anything about it, nor admit that VAR is a farce in this country.

Whilst I accept we can't kick it into the long grass and it probably wont disappear overnight, we as fans and clubs alike should have the right to protest that its being used ineptly by officials (or corruptly!).

What I fear is as per usual they will bury their heads in the sand and hope the protests and complaints go away.

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5327 on: November 6, 2019, 03:03:47 pm »
Would people feel differently if the term ‘VAR’ was replaced with ‘some sort of video technology’ in this discussion?
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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5328 on: November 6, 2019, 03:06:50 pm »
Would people feel differently if the term ‘VAR’ was replaced with ‘some sort of video technology’ in this discussion?
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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5329 on: November 8, 2019, 09:59:56 pm »
I think I have spotted a paradox in the new rule that has almost certainly been introduced because of VAR. Say for example, it's the last day of the season and Everton need a win at Goodison to avoid relegation. It's the 95th minute, Everton are 1-0 up and defending a corner, the opposition's goalkeeper has come up in desperation for the equaliser. The corner comes in, drops to Keane,who hoofs it clear to Richarlison. Richarlison gleefully finishes into an empty net, Goodison erupts. On VAR review it becomes clear that the ball brushed off Keane's arm before creating the goalscoring opportunity, which means the goal can't be allowed. As the handball incident happened in Everton's penalty area, the ref is forced to award a penalty, which ultimately relegates Everton. The Bitters are obviously fewming as the rules state that a penalty can't be awarded for an accidental handball when the arm is in a natural position. Am I correct in the outcome of this scenario? Or are there provisions in the rules to prevent such a controversial decision?

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5330 on: November 8, 2019, 11:14:45 pm »
I think I have spotted a paradox in the new rule that has almost certainly been introduced because of VAR. Say for example, it's the last day of the season and Everton need a win at Goodison to avoid relegation. It's the 95th minute, Everton are 1-0 up and defending a corner, the opposition's goalkeeper has come up in desperation for the equaliser. The corner comes in, drops to Keane,who hoofs it clear to Richarlison. Richarlison gleefully finishes into an empty net, Goodison erupts. On VAR review it becomes clear that the ball brushed off Keane's arm before creating the goalscoring opportunity, which means the goal can't be allowed. As the handball incident happened in Everton's penalty area, the ref is forced to award a penalty, which ultimately relegates Everton. The Bitters are obviously fewming as the rules state that a penalty can't be awarded for an accidental handball when the arm is in a natural position. Am I correct in the outcome of this scenario? Or are there provisions in the rules to prevent such a controversial decision?

Dunno, but its a dream scenario ;D
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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5331 on: November 8, 2019, 11:16:55 pm »
Dunno, but its a dream scenario ;D

I hope they get relegated specifically in this situation and get fucked over by the loophole
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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5332 on: November 9, 2019, 08:21:19 am »
I think I saw somewhere about the same rule applying to goalkeepers to the effect that they cannot score from a kick out of their hands any more. It's all about the restart though...
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Offline Uncle Ronnie

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5333 on: November 9, 2019, 04:39:58 pm »
Quote
The starting point for a phase of play that leads to a goal or penalty incident will be limited to the immediate phase and not necessarily go back to when the attacking team gained possession.

Other factors for consideration will be the ability of the defence to reset and the momentum of the attack.

https://www.premierleague.com/news/1297401

Spurs cleared the ball from that “offside” attack.

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5334 on: November 9, 2019, 04:51:09 pm »
I think I have spotted a paradox in the new rule that has almost certainly been introduced because of VAR. Say for example, it's the last day of the season and Everton need a win at Goodison to avoid relegation. It's the 95th minute, Everton are 1-0 up and defending a corner, the opposition's goalkeeper has come up in desperation for the equaliser. The corner comes in, drops to Keane,who hoofs it clear to Richarlison. Richarlison gleefully finishes into an empty net, Goodison erupts. On VAR review it becomes clear that the ball brushed off Keane's arm before creating the goalscoring opportunity, which means the goal can't be allowed. As the handball incident happened in Everton's penalty area, the ref is forced to award a penalty, which ultimately relegates Everton. The Bitters are obviously fewming as the rules state that a penalty can't be awarded for an accidental handball when the arm is in a natural position. Am I correct in the outcome of this scenario? Or are there provisions in the rules to prevent such a controversial decision?

The pen would not be given. The more interesting point, as I see it, is that as soon as any accidental contact of ball to hand happens, the team will be unable to score a goal, so why should play continue? If you as a defending player know that a player on the attacking side has "handled" the ball, you should let them shoot, because the goal won't stand and you gain possession. The attacking side has no motivation to actually do that, so they are now motivated to put the ball out of play or surrender possession.

To explain what I mean, if the ball obviously comes off Trent's arm in our own half, the ref does not consider it deliberate and play continues, but everyone on the pitch knows that no goal can follow, so what should Trent do with the ball? And how is this sensible?
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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5335 on: November 9, 2019, 04:59:30 pm »

The pen would not be given. The more interesting point, as I see it, is that as soon as any accidental contact of ball to hand happens, the team will be unable to score a goal, so why should play continue? If you as a defending player know that a player on the attacking side has "handled" the ball, you should let them shoot, because the goal won't stand and you gain possession. The attacking side has no motivation to actually do that, so they are now motivated to put the ball out of play or surrender possession.

To explain what I mean, if the ball obviously comes off Trent's arm in our own half, the ref does not consider it deliberate and play continues, but everyone on the pitch knows that no goal can follow, so what should Trent do with the ball? And how is this sensible?
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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5336 on: November 9, 2019, 05:09:53 pm »
Was all for VAR.

Flawed so bad right now it has to be reviewed or scrapped.
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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5337 on: November 9, 2019, 05:12:53 pm »
Was all for VAR.

Flawed so bad right now it has to be reviewed or scrapped.
Basic errors children wouldn't make.
Pretty much a shambles.

The technology is fine, its the chimpanzees operating it that is the issue.

Many moons ago I made the statement that I still say today  - they need to run before they can walk with this system. Sadly, I didn't realise they were going to try and run whilst having a tea party when they brought it in.

Keep the system and fire the people.


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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5338 on: November 9, 2019, 05:32:54 pm »
Hawkeye software and technician took four minutes to estimate whether Sheffield United were offside.

Are we sure the software and the system are fine aside from the English refs?

This software and Hawkeye techs have been working on this for several years around Europe alone (including at the World Cup). So even though it’s the first season of Hawkeye in the PL they can’t use inexperience and it being new as an excuse.

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5339 on: November 9, 2019, 05:35:03 pm »
That camera thing at anfield that gives 360 views of everything- would that help in as much as you can change your angle of view etc?

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5340 on: November 9, 2019, 05:36:37 pm »
The technology is fine, its the chimpanzees operating it that is the issue.

Many moons ago I made the statement that I still say today  - they need to run before they can walk with this system. Sadly, I didn't realise they were going to try and run whilst having a tea party when they brought it in.

Keep the system and fire the people.


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Agreed. And just to add, I've said it a few times too, we need different sets of chimpanzees on the filed an in the VAR room. Otherwise, it's like the "multi-party system" in a communist country. And then you will hear arguments like those on the Firmino's disallowed goal - VAR didn't change the outcome. An incompetent chimpanzee on the line was so far behind the play that called Firmino offside (probably looked like half a yard from where he was at the time), and another well-known chimpanzee in the VAR room drew the line as he found fit to show that the previous chimpanzee was right, albeit by the size of a gnat's dick.
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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5341 on: November 9, 2019, 05:52:02 pm »
Hawkeye software and technician took four minutes to estimate whether Sheffield United were offside.

Are we sure the software and the system are fine aside from the English refs?

This software and Hawkeye techs have been working on this for several years around Europe alone (including at the World Cup). So even though it’s the first season of Hawkeye in the PL they can’t use inexperience and it being new as an excuse.

Short answer is yes.

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5342 on: November 9, 2019, 06:03:05 pm »
The technology is fine, its the chimpanzees operating it that is the issue.

Many moons ago I made the statement that I still say today  - they need to run before they can walk with this system. Sadly, I didn't realise they were going to try and run whilst having a tea party when they brought it in.

Keep the system and fire the people.


....out of a cannon.

Absolutely right Choppz but do you think they are doing this by accident or design?  It seems to me that they want rid of VAR and are actively working towards that.

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5343 on: November 9, 2019, 06:07:47 pm »
How can people say the system is fine? the system is giving us absurd offside calls which are FAR too close for the cameras to actually call given the margin for error (up to 38cms depending on the speed players are moving at apparently). That's ignoring the absurdity of thinking the fact that someone's armpit is offside is actually relevant to the decision in the first place. ALSO, slowing down and zooming in on action inevitably warps one's view of what's happened, so we end up with decisions given/ not given that previously would never have been because previously the naked eye made decisions. ALSO, we've ended up with rule changes, such as handball, which are totally unnecessary, stupid and only possible because of VAR. As we currently stand we need a radical overhaul of the system itself even with an improvement of decision making (decision making which will inevitably be warped by the standards of historical experience because of what focussing in and slowing down does to one's perception).

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5344 on: November 9, 2019, 06:10:59 pm »
With today's tech, why isn't the ref just wearing a 6" tablet so can view it right away?

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5345 on: November 9, 2019, 06:12:12 pm »
With today's tech, why isn't the ref just wearing a 6" tablet so can view it right away?

Deck them out like Teletubbies with it on their chests.
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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5346 on: November 9, 2019, 06:14:05 pm »
How can people say the system is fine?

By system, people first referred to the entire setup, including the referees watching the screens. Then people said the system was fine, but the refs are crap. Now it turns out the technicians are also not doing it properly, but the system is still fine. So, these days, when people say the system is fine, they're actually saying the cameras are working. :)

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5347 on: November 9, 2019, 06:14:20 pm »
Deck them out like Teletubbies with it on their chests.

Moss is already pretty tele-tubby
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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5348 on: November 9, 2019, 06:17:16 pm »
Deck them out like Teletubbies with it on their chests.

Just the select ones.
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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5349 on: November 9, 2019, 06:21:19 pm »
Short answer is yes.

Not to people who are interested in evidence, it’s not.

Requires true faith to think the system that did what it did with firmino’s goal, without being touched by the ref,is anything other than flawed.

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5350 on: November 9, 2019, 06:26:31 pm »
They take 4 minutes deciding on an offside but 10 seconds on reviewing what should be penalties before playing on.
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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5351 on: November 9, 2019, 06:28:44 pm »
They take 4 minutes deciding on an offside but 10 seconds on reviewing what should be penalties before playing on.
Be fair, they took 5 minutes watching the ball hit Alli's hand before deciding to not apply the rules.

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5352 on: November 9, 2019, 06:30:25 pm »
Be fair, they took 5 minutes watching the ball hit Alli's hand before deciding to not apply the rules.
Haven’t seen or heard about this. Today?

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5353 on: November 9, 2019, 06:30:38 pm »
Be fair, they took 5 minutes watching the ball hit Alli's hand before deciding to not apply the rules.

Ha. Fair.
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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5354 on: November 9, 2019, 06:32:19 pm »
Haven’t seen or heard about this. Today?
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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5355 on: November 9, 2019, 06:33:12 pm »
Not to people who are interested in evidence, it’s not.

Requires true faith to think the system that did what it did with firmino’s goal, without being touched by the ref,is anything other than flawed.

I've been a software developer for 18 years now, so I have a bit of an idea of how things work. The system will have been developed and tested thoroughly, FIFA have had it tested for accuracy and approved it.

The problem with it, like a lot of software is PICNIC (problem in chair not in computer). If the users find a way to abuse the software, they will, because humans cannot help themselves. As the system isn't automated, you need someone to click a starting point and then an end point for the software to create the lines. Once someone starts making the start point in front of the player and then clicking an armpit, you are fucked. We saw the software give the correct lines initially, then Atkinson obviously decided he didn't want the correct result and had it corrupted to suit.
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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5356 on: November 9, 2019, 06:40:15 pm »
Rafa talking about VAR:


Referees need to take responsibility with VAR

A long time ago, when the subject of VAR was first raised, I was dubious. For disciplinary issues and cleaning up the game, I thought it could be perfect. Players will think twice about using their elbows or committing bad tackles if they know what they do will be checked out afterwards. I’m 100 per cent in favour of that.

What we’re seeing now is mistake after mistake and the problem is that too many people are analysing incidents. There is confusion about what to do or who is making decisions. The idea shouldn’t be to take those decisions away from referees, it should be about making it easier for them to decide, giving them more responsibility rather than less.

It’s too easy for referees or their assistants to stop making decisions because they’re worried about being wrong, to wait for VAR. Then you get the delays and the lack of clarity we’re seeing now. We have professional officials and they’re paid to take decisions, not to wait and see what another person sitting in an office somewhere thinks on their behalf.

This isn’t just my opinion. I was talking recently with Roberto Rosetti, UEFA’s chief refereeing officer, and he thinks the same — it’s about referees taking responsibility. If something is a doubt, a big doubt, then the referee should go to the sidelines, watch the incident back on a monitor and then decide. It would only be once or twice during the game. Let them use this information.

It’s important to get things right — winning or losing games can be worth millions and millions to clubs — and VAR is supposed to make things more fair, which is obviously a positive, but you have to find the balance. We shouldn’t be changing things so much that the whole spirit of football becomes different, that we take the emotion away from it.

That is the risk when every decision takes so long, when everything is checked. With the advent of new technology and the rollout of 5G, sending and analysing pictures should be pretty instantaneous — as with all new processes, everything becomes better over time — but I’m still not convinced that everything should be looked at.

With Dalian Yifang recently, we scored a goal on the counter-attack, we waited for the VAR check and it was disallowed. There was an offside in the middle of the pitch, a very close call, maybe a shoulder. That decision was correct and I’m sure our opponents were happy, but in the past, when there was any doubt, the attacking team was favoured, so there were more goals.

It is an interesting argument: does being right more often make football better as a sport? At the moment, VAR is not even getting things right, it is just passing decisions to people who are not in the stadiums. It is here to stay, I’m sure about that, but there is a lot of work to be done. When there is any doubt, the referee has to make the final decision. They have to have responsibility.
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Offline rob1966

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5357 on: November 9, 2019, 06:55:44 pm »
This today proves the VAR line drawing is fine, just that the referee watching it is fucking shite. The tech will have drawn the lines from the knee and from the wingers toe, as instructed by the VAR referee. The black line from the toe runs straight through two parts of the body you can score with, the head and the shoulder. The stupid microsoft paint lines the TV companies use make it look shite, you can see the fine red and black lines Hawkeye uses.

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5358 on: November 9, 2019, 06:55:51 pm »
I've been a software developer for 18 years now, so I have a bit of an idea of how things work. The system will have been developed and tested thoroughly, FIFA have had it tested for accuracy and approved it.

The problem with it, like a lot of software is PICNIC (problem in chair not in computer). If the users find a way to abuse the software, they will, because humans cannot help themselves. As the system isn't automated, you need someone to click a starting point and then an end point for the software to create the lines. Once someone starts making the start point in front of the player and then clicking an armpit, you are fucked. We saw the software give the correct lines initially, then Atkinson obviously decided he didn't want the correct result and had it corrupted to suit.

Good insight into what picnic is, appreciate it mate. But if I read that right the short answer is actually no since you’re discussing a clear problem with the system. And since the system depends on hawkeye’s Technicians in chairs (before we even get to the ref in chair for subjective decisions), it seems a pretty impactful flaw

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5359 on: November 9, 2019, 07:01:35 pm »
Once again, the margin for error within offsides, given cameras and the need to find a frame where the ball has definitely been kicked, is 38cms. It really doesn't matter how good the tech is when the information it's given is going to be out by up to 38cms. The offside is the most objective part of VAR and it's still a complete joke.