Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
539 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 740

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 1440371 times)

Offline Yosser0_0

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22600 on: May 22, 2019, 10:44:03 am »
Christ on a bike how many old people do you think there are in this country 17+ million is it?

Sick of the need to blame one section of society wake up will ya all ages and gender voted for it sadly not just the over 65's in this country this need to aportion blame rather than deal with the reasons for them voting for it and working on answering their problems is exactly why this bloody country is so toxic right now.

I think you also need to move away from the notion that anyone who voted to leave is a moron as again if you dont listen to them you cannot hope to resolve their attitudes .
towards the E.U.


Just for reference i voted to remain as did most of my over 65 friends ( anecdotal i know but its a funny old world)

I agree with this, there hasn't been enough open and honest discussions on issues such as sovereignty, single currency, the cost of the EU parliament and what seems to be the most important issue - immigration. Any discussion on immigration immediately seems to escalate into racism accusations, but what are the actual figures? Let's see them, is there a genuine concern here, if so what are the reasons? I've heard Leaver's say that the population is getting too high and this has led to an excessive requirement to build more houses and more pressure on the NHS. Is this due to immigration? What are the figures, I know that the NHS is hugely reliant on foreign medical staff and this is sold as a positive, but is that a good place to be in if your own people are not developing skills? I really don't know enough about this area, I've debated with Leaver's in other areas where I've had access to facts and figures and I have been listened to.

For Remainer's to simply dismiss all Leaver's as old stupid racists isn't helping the debate, in fact it makes the Remainer's look equally as stupid and arrogant. Yes there are some Leaver's who are hard liner's but equally there are many who are open to a debate and a discussion and can be influenced, after all the less hard liner's were influenced in 2016 weren't they? Remainer's need to sell things like FOM and back it up with figures if they can and also acknowledge the negatives of the EU, it isn't a panacea to solve every problem, if it was then there wouldn't be any debate in the first place. 
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22601 on: May 22, 2019, 11:31:42 am »
Yep, I do agree. Geoff is right.

Then again, I suspect that the reasons people want to leave the EU are not necessarily anything to actually do with the EU.

Looking at leave areas, it might be more of an issue of disillusionment, a feeling of abandonment and a lack of hope. The areas voting leave also have by far the worst outcomes for school children.

Something else going on other than the EU I would suggest
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22602 on: May 22, 2019, 11:43:58 am »
I agree with this, there hasn't been enough open and honest discussions on issues such as sovereignty, single currency, the cost of the EU parliament and what seems to be the most important issue - immigration. Any discussion on immigration immediately seems to escalate into racism accusations, but what are the actual figures? Let's see them, is there a genuine concern here, if so what are the reasons? I've heard Leaver's say that the population is getting too high and this has led to an excessive requirement to build more houses and more pressure on the NHS. Is this due to immigration? What are the figures, I know that the NHS is hugely reliant on foreign medical staff and this is sold as a positive, but is that a good place to be in if your own people are not developing skills? I really don't know enough about this area, I've debated with Leaver's in other areas where I've had access to facts and figures and I have been listened to.

For Remainer's to simply dismiss all Leaver's as old stupid racists isn't helping the debate, in fact it makes the Remainer's look equally as stupid and arrogant. Yes there are some Leaver's who are hard liner's but equally there are many who are open to a debate and a discussion and can be influenced, after all the less hard liner's were influenced in 2016 weren't they? Remainer's need to sell things like FOM and back it up with figures if they can and also acknowledge the negatives of the EU, it isn't a panacea to solve every problem, if it was then there wouldn't be any debate in the first place.

Because Leavers never produce such figures, so in the absence of fact, why else would you be against the current immigration laws unless you are a bigot. The burden is on Leavers to make their case to people like me that immigration is genuinely the problem they make it out to be and yet, nothing.

Your line about the EU not being a panacea is a fucking lame one, to be blunt. I've never seen a Remain voter claim the EU is perfect because it's a redundant argument. Nothing is perfect (or rather, you can never please everyone all of the time) yet supporters of political parties or sides in other debates are never expected to preface whatever they are about to say with "well, Labour/the Conservative party/remaining a part of the UK isn't perfect, but..." like Remainers are expected to. It's like Remainers are docked points for the audacity to be enthusiastic about EU membership.

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22603 on: May 22, 2019, 11:50:45 am »
Yep, I do agree. Geoff is right.

Then again, I suspect that the reasons people want to leave the EU are not necessarily anything to actually do with the EU.

Looking at leave areas, it might be more of an issue of disillusionment, a feeling of abandonment and a lack of hope. The areas voting leave also have by far the worst outcomes for school children.

Something else going on other than the EU I would suggest


This, and the responsibility for such disillusionment lies at the door of UK parties. That includes both the Labour of Blair and the Labour of Corbyn.

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22604 on: May 22, 2019, 12:15:46 pm »
No one has ever said that all old people voted for Brexit.

The fact is a large majority did though. That does not mean people are casting aspersions on you.

i am not bothered about me i dont like lazy approximations of blame when people need to look deeper into the factors that made people opt to leave .
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22605 on: May 22, 2019, 12:16:03 pm »
That's because they wanted to watch the Tories fuck up Brexit and give themselves a pathway to power, party interests before country. The thing is that they didn't really think it through as they can't sit on the sidelines forever and at some point Labour would have been dragged into it anyway and would also have had to take responsibility for Brexit. Its come to the point where the Labour party are also being badly damaged by Brexit, despite their claims, it is no longer just a 'Tory Brexit mess'.
Am sure Corbyn did want the Tories to f.. up badly but the fact Corbyns first reaction to the ref result was calling art 50 to be triggered showed he looked at Brexit positively, he sacked Hillary Ben 2 days after and sent out a statement telling Labour voters to remain positive about our future outside the EU.
Corbyn was no different to any of the other leave MPs, had formed many opinions on why he hates the EU over many years but never gave much thought to why the EU have to have these rules and regulations, the implications and problems of leaving the EU were not fully understood.
I think where we are today can be traced back to the months following the referendum, I honestly can't think of 1 argument the Labour leadership made to influence public opinion. I can think of quiet a few massive points the hard right won to move this country to the hard right, to put this country on course for a hard Brexit. Corbyns Labour are now arguing they will unite the country in hope not fear. does he realize he has played a part in splitting this country, the country would be in a even worse state if it wasn't for a few brave MPs telling the truth. the people of this country had to educate themselves on the implications of leaving the EU. I dread to think what would have happened if this was left up to the Labour leadership. the whole country would be screaming for a no deal. Labour should have fought the hard right, they should have exposed the lies that radicalised people to support right wing parties, history tells us it's too late to try and win them over to compromise once the hard right parties have won them over.
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22606 on: May 22, 2019, 12:22:22 pm »
This, and the responsibility for such disillusionment lies at the door of UK parties. That includes both the Labour of Blair and the Labour of Corbyn.

Totally correct

this problem of disenfranchising whole sections in society and pitting one against another started in ernest with Thatcher and it has never really been addressed by any leadership since , we had the private sector against the public sector we had the stigmatisation of the vulnerable and disabled as well just before Brexit, we had the constant use of many shit decisions by any government being sold to the country as well the E U made us do this.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 02:50:08 pm by Mutton Geoff »
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22607 on: May 22, 2019, 12:30:23 pm »
Len will be unhappy with this.

Quote
"We could be the first casualty of Brexit - but I doubt we'll be the last." Martin Forster from Unite Scunthorpe Steel Works says Brexit "could cost this business its future".

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1130909022960455689

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22608 on: May 22, 2019, 12:36:35 pm »
Scunthorpe voted overwhelmingly Leave in the referendum

Offline IgorBobbins

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22609 on: May 22, 2019, 01:14:37 pm »
It's one thing to empathise with those who voted to leave 3 years ago.  To try to understand and defend their reasons.

But it's another thing to defend those who continue to support leaving now, even after the hugely detrimental impacts continue to be laid bare.  I find it baffling.

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22610 on: May 22, 2019, 01:55:50 pm »
Scunthorpe voted overwhelmingly Leave in the referendum

"for richer or for poorer"...  :P

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22611 on: May 22, 2019, 01:58:41 pm »
"Mr Francois ... suggested the public increasingly backed leaving with a deal and trading with the EU using World Trade Organization rules."

That's a misprint by the BBC. From the rest of article it's clear that Francoise means "without a deal" not "with".

It's bollocks of course. And the only way Francois can know that for sure is to test it in a Referendum.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22612 on: May 22, 2019, 02:36:34 pm »
Seriously, why does Theresa keep coming back with the same deal?

Why does she keep issuing the same threats?

How can anyone in the cabinet support her, and go through the same process over and over again?

I really can't understand her thought process, I can only think she doesn't have one.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22613 on: May 22, 2019, 02:41:51 pm »
Some rumblings that there may be another attempt to force May out coming.

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22614 on: May 22, 2019, 02:55:23 pm »
Seriously, why does Theresa keep coming back with the same deal?

Why does she keep issuing the same threats?


How can anyone in the cabinet support her, and go through the same process over and over again?

I really can't understand her thought process, I can only think she doesn't have one.

this is because she has nothing left to offer now.
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22615 on: May 22, 2019, 03:00:04 pm »
Elmo will be happy to hear that Mundell is demanding a meeting today because May confirmed that, yes, Parliament could amend the WAB to include a referendum. Descriptions of observable reality triggering such anger is what Brexit is all about, I suppose.

Question is whether May will survive the cabinet telling her she needs to go and, if she does, whether the 1922 then force a leadership election by rewriting their own rules to get rid of her.

Not sure why they don't wait a couple more days myself. Let May take the blame for the results.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22616 on: May 22, 2019, 03:03:41 pm »
Seriously, why does Theresa keep coming back with the same deal?

Why does she keep issuing the same threats?

How can anyone in the cabinet support her, and go through the same process over and over again?

I really can't understand her thought process, I can only think she doesn't have one.

Her thought process for a long time now has been nothing more sophisticated than 'what should I do to ensure I'm still PM this time tomorrow'. Looks like she's finally running out of road to kick the can down.
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Offline Elmo!

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22617 on: May 22, 2019, 03:07:49 pm »
Elmo will be happy to hear that Mundell is demanding a meeting today because May confirmed that, yes, Parliament could amend the WAB to include a referendum. Descriptions of observable reality triggering such anger is what Brexit is all about, I suppose.

Yes, he fears it will set a precedent for a second indyref.

It also of course would set a precedent for a confirmatory vote on outcome of negotiations between Scottish Government and Westminster so I'm not so sure it is such a bad thing for unionists.

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22618 on: May 22, 2019, 03:08:14 pm »
I wonder what politics was like before it was a grand procession of May trying to sell the same thing, Corbyn going off on a long speech ending with "GIVE ME A GENERAL ELECTION" - May then being savaged by what are notionally her own MPs, nothing happening and then the clock slowly ticking down. What did they even used to do...

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22619 on: May 22, 2019, 03:41:06 pm »
Quote
I am told that the pizza club of Brexiter cabinet ministers, led by @andrealeadsom, are telling PM she must pull the Withdrawal Agreement Bill vote. Which @theresa_may may think is a bit rich, since it was Leadsom who led charge for the vote to be brought forward. But one...

pizza club minister says that the speech the PM gave yesterday on the WAB, which Brexiters see as paving the way for customs union membership and a referendum, was not what they thought they had agreed in cabinet!

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1131206988199809029

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22620 on: May 22, 2019, 04:03:41 pm »
Yes, he fears it will set a precedent for a second indyref.

It also of course would set a precedent for a confirmatory vote on outcome of negotiations between Scottish Government and Westminster so I'm not so sure it is such a bad thing for unionists.

Yeah. It's just a really weird position to take that saying "yes, the government will legislate for something Parliament votes for" is beyond the pale. I do see the point on precedent, goes to the discussion on 'red lines' vanishing we had on here yesterday, just wondering what Mundell would expect to happen in his counterfactual because if there's votes to support it then there'll be votes to take the decision out of the government's hands anyway.
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Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22621 on: May 22, 2019, 04:21:35 pm »
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1131206988199809029

Quote
And more detail on the 2nd ref row. Cabinet angry cos they understood there would be a debate on a 2nd ref while making it clear it was not govt policy and there would be nothing on face of bill about 2nd ref. What they got was a vote & promise of it being put into law if passed

https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1131211020091965440

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22622 on: May 22, 2019, 04:26:16 pm »
Have a feeling she'll go on Friday after a trouncing with Labour with the euro results and when she withdraws her bill.

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22623 on: May 22, 2019, 04:30:00 pm »
Have a feeling she'll go on Friday after a trouncing with Labour with the euro results and when she withdraws her bill.

The Euro results aren't announced until Monday, I've read so it might be more likely that will be her departure date.

First Mundell, now Javid.

Quote
Sources close to Sajid Javid say he has asked to see the PM to push her to remove the second referendum vote requirement from the bill - he believes it is not what was agreed - he is not only senior minister who is v unhappy - situation getting very serious

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1131219945109561345

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22624 on: May 22, 2019, 04:30:51 pm »
https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1131211020091965440

Those most keen to argue we have to leave the EU to reclaim Parliament's sovereignty seem the most inclined to want to ignore Parliament as it suits.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22625 on: May 22, 2019, 04:39:09 pm »
https://twitter.com/joncraig/status/1131220451806588929?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Quote
Very senior MP tells me the word from the Cabinet corridor in the HoC is that the PM will resign tonight, Andrea Leadsom is poised to resign to launch a leadership bid, others may also resign & David Lidington will take over as acting PM. Unconfirmed!

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22628 on: May 22, 2019, 04:42:02 pm »
https://twitter.com/joncraig/status/1131220451806588929?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Leadsom doesn't need to resign to launch a leadership bid, does she? Seems an oddly unnecessary move. At least if she doesn't win the leadership contest, she's still in Cabinet unless the new leader sacks her (which I imagine is unlikely as he/she will likely want Brexiteers around them)

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22629 on: May 22, 2019, 04:48:38 pm »
https://twitter.com/joncraig/status/1131220451806588929?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Frottage has played a blinder here.

It's exactly what the far-right nutters wanted.

The man is shaping British politics at the moment and is being helped by a bunch of incompetent pricks!
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 04:54:52 pm by Red-Soldier »

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22630 on: May 22, 2019, 04:50:41 pm »
Leadsom doesn't need to resign to launch a leadership bid, does she? Seems an oddly unnecessary move. At least if she doesn't win the leadership contest, she's still in Cabinet unless the new leader sacks her (which I imagine is unlikely as he/she will likely want Brexiteers around them)

Imagine thinking that Andrea fucking Leadsom is the answer to any question other than 'Name one of the ten people least qualified to be PM?'.

As Malcolm Tucker would say 'She's so dense that light bends around her'
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22631 on: May 22, 2019, 04:53:22 pm »
Imagine thinking that Andrea fucking Leadsom is the answer to any question other than 'Name one of the ten people least qualified to be PM?'.

As Malcolm Tucker would say 'She's so dense that light bends around her'

If you think this cabinet is the worst you have ever seen, just wait until it gets filled with Brexiters under the next permanent leader

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22632 on: May 22, 2019, 04:56:36 pm »
If you think this cabinet is the worst you have ever seen, just wait until it gets filled with Brexiters under the next permanent leader
I'm quite looking to seeing Foreign Secretary Gareth Keenan  Mark Francois actually.  Might be good for a giggle.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22633 on: May 22, 2019, 05:03:15 pm »
Quote
Stephen Crabb says PM has to go ASAP and new PM needed ‘within weeks’

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1131226565780676609

The man who pulled out of the last leadership contest for sexting.

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22634 on: May 22, 2019, 05:09:37 pm »
Imagine thinking that Andrea fucking Leadsom is the answer to any question other than 'Name one of the ten people least qualified to be PM?'.

As Malcolm Tucker would say 'She's so dense that light bends around her'

Leadsom would be great.

Considering there is a dearth of ability in the Tories, then the incompetent, the better.

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22635 on: May 22, 2019, 05:20:38 pm »
She is toast. However, the idea of Johnson v McVey fills me with utter dread if either of them get anywhere near being PM. Talk about Hobson's choice.

Labour are continuing to miss a massive open goal here. A second referendum should now be at the forefront of their offers, and more importantly, the dear leader says so rather than continuing to sit on the fence that he has been on for the last few years.

An utter fucking shit show caused by the blue rinse brigade who won`t give a toss in a few years anyway, leaving the rest of us to have to deal with the mess.
"Just a normal lad from Liverpool whose dream has just come true" Trent June 1st 2019

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22636 on: May 22, 2019, 05:29:29 pm »
Mundell, Javid and Hunt's one-to-one meetings with May aren't happening.

https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1131234658111447042

Offline Riquende

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22637 on: May 22, 2019, 05:44:38 pm »
Frottage has played a blinder here.

Indeed. The man has allowed UKIP to swallow the Tories whole before skipping away from the toxicity to found a new party surging in the polls. All without ever needing to be elected!

I'm sure the blinders that Jezza's been playing with his policy of not getting involved or having an opinion are equally as influential.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22638 on: May 22, 2019, 05:46:35 pm »
Hahahaha. They need 1922 to change rules. Only the 1922 then needs that rule change ratified by MPs. Not happening tomorrow, is it? So she's safe til 4th June when Parliament returns from the Whitsun recess.
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And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22639 on: May 22, 2019, 05:51:58 pm »
Quote
Asked if Mrs May is hiding in her bunker, one government source says “that’s what I’m hearing”

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1131239446140076033