Topic: Doesn't matter who you vote for as long as it's for the right reasons!

[So… Howard Philips]

So the Prime Minister is due back today from his hols on the private island of Mustique & apparently he stayed with the Von Bismark family, descendants of Germany's first chancellor, Otto Von Bismark.

It's a hard life.

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/britain/boris-johnson-jetting-off-to-private-caribbean-island-of-mustique-with-girlfriend-carrie-symonds-for-winter-sun-38811189.html

At least Bismarck was an effective politician. Unlike our buffoon.

[west_london_red]

So the Prime Minister is due back today from his hols on the private island of Mustique & apparently he stayed with the Von Bismark family, descendants of Germany's first chancellor, Otto Von Bismark.

It's a hard life.

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/britain/boris-johnson-jetting-off-to-private-caribbean-island-of-mustique-with-girlfriend-carrie-symonds-for-winter-sun-38811189.html

I was wondering how it was all funded. PM earns £150k a year, which is about £90k after tax, and if the holiday cost the reputed £40k that’s been thrown around I don’t see how you can spend 45% of your take home pay on a single holiday even taking into account that he has no real living costs.

[killer-heels]

Phillips today refusing to rule out campaigning to rejoin the EU. Not sure why leaders cannot just say this isnt happening.

[Elmo!]

I was wondering how it was all funded. PM earns £150k a year, which is about £90k after tax, and if the holiday cost the reputed £40k that’s been thrown around I don’t see how you can spend 45% of your take home pay on a single holiday even taking into account that he has no real living costs.

He also earns £275k a year for his Telegraph column.

[Jiminy Cricket]

He also earns £275k a year for his Telegraph column.

He still does that? I thought that was stopped when he became PM - or was it just speculation?

[killer-heels]

I was wondering how it was all funded. PM earns £150k a year, which is about £90k after tax, and if the holiday cost the reputed £40k that’s been thrown around I don’t see how you can spend 45% of your take home pay on a single holiday even taking into account that he has no real living costs.

I dont think he is short of money.

[oldfordie]

Phillips today refusing to rule out campaigning to rejoin the EU. Not sure why leaders cannot just say this isnt happening.

Correct as well, she says it all depends on whether the Tories deliver the Brexit they promised, they won't, a decent Labour opposition should be able to rip them apart, lets see how the public feel about leaving the EU in 5yrs time.

[west_london_red]

He also earns £275k a year for his Telegraph column.

Pretty sure he had to quit when he was Foreign Minister, and quit again when he became PM.

[killer-heels]

Correct as well, she says it all depends on whether the Tories deliver the Brexit they promised, they won't, a decent Labour opposition should be able to rip them apart, lets see how the public feel about leaving the EU in 5yrs time.

I dont know who she is pitching too but whilst you have to pitch to your members its important that in this campaign there is a pitch to the electorate as well.

I would like a campaign to join the EU but thats not in the next 5 years, more likely later or after the next decade. In the meantime we cant have Labour seen as the party to try to go back in, cap in hand. It just gives the Tories more ammo.

[oldfordie]

I dont know who she is pitching too but whilst you have to pitch to your members its important that in this campaign there is a pitch to the electorate as well.

I would like a campaign to join the EU but thats not in the next 5 years, more likely later or after the next decade. In the meantime we cant have Labour seen as the party to try to go back in, cap in hand. It just gives the Tories more ammo.

It's not a sales pitch, she is saying something ive wanted to hear from a Labour leader, telling the Tories to deliver the Brexit they promised. if they deliver then end of argument but thats not going to happen, 100% certain this is not going to go well for the country. it's all been theory up to now for many people, all up for debate. it won't be up for debate when the s..hits the fan in many ways. 5yrs is more than enough assuming Johnson doesn't sell a 5yr extension to the country.

[killer-heels]

It's not a sales pitch, she is saying something ive wanted to hear from a Labour leader, telling the Tories to deliver the Brexit they promised. if they deliver then end of argument but thats not going to happen, 100% certain this is not going to go well for the country. it's all been theory up to now for many people, all up for debate. it won't be up for debate when the s..hits the fan in many ways. 5yrs is more than enough assuming Johnson doesn't sell a 5yr extension to the country.

Hanging campaigns on Tory fuck ups or the Brexit debate now isnt going to wash. Each Labour leader needs to build an optimistic future of what the country will look like under Labour. The votes in certain places have been dwindling for the past decade and more and more than ever we need a party that appeals to all parts of the country.

The Tories have their optimistic pitch with Brexit. The SNP have theirs with independence. We need a Labour pitch that isnt just everything will be shit and we will reopen the debate on the EU.

[oldfordie]

Hanging campaigns on Tory fuck ups or the Brexit debate now isnt going to wash. Each Labour leader needs to build an optimistic future of what the country will look like under Labour. The votes in certain places have been dwindling for the past decade and more and more than ever we need a party that appeals to all parts of the country.

The Tories have their optimistic pitch with Brexit. The SNP have theirs with independence. We need a Labour pitch that isnt just everything will be shit and we will reopen the debate on the EU.

The Tories optimistic plan was all theory, they now face realty. they face impossible no win decisions. either option results in something bad happening to the economy and UK companies. hurts the public in the pocket.
There is not going to be a GE for 5 yrs. public opinion doesn't matter in 2020. imo public opinion probably won't change till 2021, Phillips won't get the leadership but if she did she could rip the Tories apart. will inflation rise rapidly in 2021. will our companies face big tariffs abroad, where are all those trade deals you promised to stop countries imposing big tariffs on our exports all over the world. we are not talking theory, this is going to happen, do this and revaluate as it progresses. the danger for Labour is allowing the Tories to spin the s,, storm onto others so that means ripping them apart when they deserve it.

[Elmo!]

He still does that? I thought that was stopped when he became PM - or was it just speculation?

Pretty sure he had to quit when he was Foreign Minister, and quit again when he became PM.

Ah fair enough, didn't realise that. Surprisingly enoughm I don't read the Telegraph!

[TravisBickle]

I genuinely feel quite bad for Long-Bailey. She is clearly unprepared for leadership, clearly doesn’t want it and is evidently being forced into standing by Milne, McC*uskey et al. What’s utterly fucking staggering is she was second choice behind Pidcock, who had been an MP for two years. The extent of the crank left’s irresponsibility is fucking criminal and I sincerely hope they’re ejected once again. The damage done by their selfishness is hard to put into words.

They gave Thatcher a pass. They’ve just given Johnson and Cummings a pass. Please do not let the bastards get away with it again.

[Yorkykopite]

I genuinely feel quite bad for Long-Bailey. She is clearly unprepared for leadership, clearly doesn’t want it and is evidently being forced into standing by Milne, McC*uskey et al. What’s utterly fucking staggering is she was second choice behind Pidcock, who had been an MP for two years.

These people have no time for parliament so being an MP for a very short time is a good qualification for them.

They don't have much time for the Labour party either which is why Long-Bailey fits the bill. She's only been a member for 4 years. Astounding but true.

[The Gulleysucker]

....She's only been a member for 4 years.

I don't expect she's the only one, certainly amongst many of the more shouty supporters of the failed project, who were probably voting or even actively campaigning against Labour before that.

[west_london_red]

These people have no time for parliament so being an MP for a very short time is a good qualification for them.

They don't have much time for the Labour party either which is why Long-Bailey fits the bill. She's only been a member for 4 years. Astounding but true.

At face value, yes that’s completely astounding but in the interest of balance there’s more then one type of membership. I’m not a member of the party, but am a member of an affiliated union and pay into the political fund and I get a vote on leadership contests etc same as a regular member so she might have only been a member for 4 years but could have been a member of an affiliated body for much longer. Also might have been a member of the Co-Operative Party?  No idea if she is or isn’t, but just putting it out there as possible explanations.

[TepidT2O]

These people have no time for parliament so being an MP for a very short time is a good qualification for them.

They don't have much time for the Labour party either which is why Long-Bailey fits the bill. She's only been a member for 4 years. Astounding but true.

So has Kier Starmer though...

Still, it appears Long Bailey has a very lose association with the truth.  In her selection interview to become an MP she said that she’d voted for Ed Milliband in 2010. 

She forgot that she hadn’t actually joined the Labour Party hen.  Bless.

[Red-Soldier]

So has Kier Starmer though...

Still, it appears Long Bailey has a very lose association with the truth.  In her selection interview to become an MP she said that she’d voted for Ed Milliband in 2010. 

She forgot that she hadn’t actually joined the Labour Party hen.  Bless.

At face value, yes that’s completely astounding but in the interest of balance there’s more then one type of membership. I’m not a member of the party, but am a member of an affiliated union and pay into the political fund and I get a vote on leadership contests etc same as a regular member so she might have only been a member for 4 years but could have been a member of an affiliated body for much longer. Also might have been a member of the Co-Operative Party?  No idea if she is or isn’t, but just putting it out there as possible explanations.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

So has Kier Starmer though...

Still, it appears Long Bailey has a very lose association with the truth.  In her selection interview to become an MP she said that she’d voted for Ed Milliband in 2010. 

She forgot that she hadn’t actually joined the Labour Party hen.  Bless.

thats pretty surprising as she normally has an amazing memory, I mean she’s talked about the insecurity of her dad’s and his friends jobs on the Salford docks which closed when she was 2 so her memory is usually razor sharp!

[west_london_red]

thats pretty surprising as she normally has an amazing memory, I mean she’s talked about the insecurity of her dad’s and his friends jobs on the Salford docks which closed when she was 2 so her memory is usually razor sharp!

See my last post. I voted for Ed Miliband as leader and I am not a member of the Labour Party either...

[TepidT2O]

See my last post. I voted for Ed Miliband as leader and I am not a member of the Labour Party either...

In 2010?

[Yorkykopite]

At face value, yes that’s completely astounding but in the interest of balance there’s more then one type of membership. I’m not a member of the party, but am a member of an affiliated union and pay into the political fund and I get a vote on leadership contests etc same as a regular member so she might have only been a member for 4 years but could have been a member of an affiliated body for much longer. Also might have been a member of the Co-Operative Party?  No idea if she is or isn’t, but just putting it out there as possible explanations.

No idea about the Cooperative party membership. I imagine if she had been a member we'd know about it!

I take your point about trade union membership. She was sponsored by Unite, but was she ever a member of the union? She was a commercial solicitor I believe. It's unlikely that the professional association she belonged to is, or was, affiliated to the Labour party.

But....I do insist on individual membership as a token of commitment anyway. There used to a rule in the party - a good one too because it stopped careerists - that you had to be an individual member of the party for 2 years before being eligible to stand as a councillor or MP.

Starmer and Jess Phillips were members of the party when they were 16 and 14 respectively. Long Bailey joined in her 30s in order to become an MP. She was also McCluskey's creature from the start.   

[Yorkykopite]

So has Kier Starmer though...

Keir Starmer joined the LPYS when he was 16.

[west_london_red]

In 2010?

Yup, I have been a member of an affiliated union since 2008 and voted in every leadership contest since.

[west_london_red]

No idea about the Cooperative party membership. I imagine if she had been a member we'd know about it!

I take your point about trade union membership. She was sponsored by Unite, but was she ever a member of the union? She was a commercial solicitor I believe. It's unlikely that the professional association she belonged to is, or was, affiliated to the Labour party.

But....I do insist on individual membership as a token of commitment anyway. There used to a rule in the party - a good one too because it stopped careerists - that you had to be an individual member of the party for 2 years before being eligible to stand as a councillor or MP.

Starmer and Jess Phillips were members of the party when they were 16 and 14 respectively. Long Bailey joined in her 30s in order to become an MP. She was also McCluskey's creature from the start.   

I have no idea about Long-Bailey I haven’t followed her career that closely nor do I intend on voting for her this time around. All I am doing is offering is plausible reasons why she has only been a member of the party for 4 years, they may apply to her or they may not. But before we start making assertions that someone must be lying about something it’s sometimes sensible to consider other explanations.

Also, I believe Jess Phillips membership lapses at some point during the Blair/Brown years but she says that’s because her dad stopped paying her membership fees.

[Yorkykopite]

I have no idea about Long-Bailey I haven’t followed her career that closely nor do I intend on voting for her this time around. All I am doing is offering is plausible reasons why she has only been a member of the party for 4 years, they may apply to her or they may not. But before we start making assertions that someone must be lying about something it’s sometimes sensible to consider other explanations.

It’s always sensible to consider other explanations, but only so long as there’s some evidence to back them up.

With a dearth of evidence to back them up all I can do in the face of such ‘explanations’ is produce reasons why they are unlikely. She hasn’t mentioned any Co-operative party membership (and nor has anyone else). It’s hard to know what trade union she belonged to that could possibly be affiliated to the Labour Party. She has no record of political activism.

Indeed she told Salford LP EC  she voted for Ed Miliband as leader of the party. When it was pointed out to her at the selection meeting that she couldn’t have done so because on her own reckoning she wasn’t a party member at the time she said she must have got confused.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

So has Kier Starmer though...

Still, it appears Long Bailey has a very lose association with the truth.  In her selection interview to become an MP she said that she’d voted for Ed Milliband in 2010. 

She forgot that she hadn’t actually joined the Labour Party hen.  Bless.

The Labour Party has got a hen?

[Circa1892]

Unison tried to block members of the Procedures Committee (the people organising the leadership election) from endorsing candidates and were blocked by the Unite/Momentum cabal. I can smell a stitch up in this election.

[Cpt_Reina]

Nice to see the same people who decry Labour for not being very good at bringing in new voters, and not being a broad enough church, also making the length of individuals membership with the party a pissing contest which determines their legitimacy.

[Yorkykopite]

Nice to see the same people who decry Labour for not being very good at bringing in new voters, and not being a broad enough church, also making the length of individuals membership with the party a pissing contest which determines their legitimacy.

The party needs to guard against careerism. It always has done. The idea that the leader of the Labour party should have served a few years membership is neither onerous nor unfair. He or she needs to know the party. The party needs to know them. This is sensible isn't it?

New voters on the other hand are always welcomed with open arms. Or should be. There's no such thing as a 'careerist voter'.

[The Gulleysucker]

Unison tried to block members of the Procedures Committee (the people organising the leadership election) from endorsing candidates and were blocked by the Unite/Momentum cabal. I can smell a stitch up in this election.

Yes, I get the impression from seeing retweets of Shitebox that Lavery seems very much the usual lunatics choice and all other candidates are not to be trusted/red tory etc.

They seem to all still be somewhere in here...

[Cpt_Reina]

The party needs to guard against careerism. It always has done. The idea that the leader of the Labour party should have served a few years membership is neither onerous nor unfair. He or she needs to know the party. The party needs to know them. This is sensible isn't it?

New voters on the other hand are always welcomed with open arms. Or should be. There's no such thing as a 'careerist voter'.

Aye, so you'd be happy to veto a potentially very good leader due to them not having been a member for long enough?

What is long enough btw? 5yrs? 10yrs?

At what milestone does someone earn the right, where's the tipping point between too wet behind the ears not a labour person and then yeah ok rubber stamped you've done your time.

[Circa1892]

Aye, so you'd be happy to veto a potentially very good leader due to them not having been a member for long enough?

What is long enough btw? 5yrs? 10yrs?

At what milestone does someone earn the right, where's the tipping point between too wet behind the ears not a labour person and then yeah ok rubber stamped you've done your time.

For me it'd be at LEAST one full parliamentary session, ideally 2. In an ideal world they'd have ministerial experience, but that excludes practically the entire PLP these days so some form of Shadow Cabinet role to show they can handle a brief beyond being a constituency MP. It shouldn't be a popularity/most like JC contest but alas.

[Yorkykopite]

Aye, so you'd be happy to veto a potentially very good leader due to them not having been a member for long enough?

What is long enough btw? 5yrs? 10yrs?

At what milestone does someone earn the right, where's the tipping point between too wet behind the ears not a labour person and then yeah ok rubber stamped you've done your time.

I think 5 years is probably fair. Though 4 of those 5 should have been served at grassroots level before the person became an MP.

[Nobby Reserve]

Can join the Labour Party up to 20th January and be eligible to vote in the leadership elections.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51000133

[Lush is the best medicine...]

https://twitter.com/paulbranditv/status/1214211530088230912?s=21

[Yorkykopite]

Can join the Labour Party up to 20th January and be eligible to vote in the leadership elections.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51000133

You can join and be eligible for leader.

[So… Howard Philips]

I think 5 years is probably fair. Though 4 of those 5 should have been served at grassroots level before the person became an MP.

Traditionally a fair number of MPs would spend their apprenticeship as local Councillors getting to understand communities and how governmental processes worked. They'd develop concensus building and budgetary skills so useful grounding for Parliament.

[classycarra]

I don't think I'll have Jess Phillips as my first preference (though still waiting to hear much more from each of the candidates), but would you expand? I've seen hinted criticisms like this at her, but there never seems to be much behind them - and I have trawled through a few threads on twitter that are long on accusation and short on evidence.

This accusation was brought up before and the evidence supporting Sian labelling her a "wretched transphobe" was extremely light, to put it politely.

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=340923.msg16793787#msg16793787

Can find it here, and it concludes on the next page before Mods understandably wanted to move on.