Author Topic: India - deteriorating?  (Read 61410 times)

Offline Bullet500

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #120 on: August 18, 2022, 04:59:23 am »
Delighted you are ‘living in the moment’ accepting life’s new configuration with a feeling of possibility in the future.  Not consumed by the historical legacy of Jinnah, Nehru and Mountbatten or by anger directed towards the democratically elected government or grief at the treatment of minorities or regret at the political discourse or shock at the erosion in India's old political values.

It is this constant outrage that is hijacking the rich, ancient, civilised culture of India and polluting minds in the present.
Shout out to your kind too: living with constant outrage because they think the rich, ancient, civilised culture of India has been hijacked and polluted in the present. Whether they live in India or elsewhere, they strive to revert to the old ancient ways. ;)

Offline Bullet500

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #121 on: August 18, 2022, 09:22:34 am »
People love to talk about creating "unity" in society. Can unity ever exist without justice?

Sure, the perpetrators of Godhra train burning are rotting in jail and they deserve to. And, if they somehow manage to come out on short term parole (won't happen btw), they won't be garlanded.

However, let's look at this:

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/bilkis-bano-case-raises-questions-as-centre-policy-against-releasing-rape-convicts-3258546

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/release-of-convicts-has-shaken-my-faith-in-justice-bilkis-bano/articleshow/93625207.cms

https://scroll.in/article/1030686/in-godhra-bilkis-bano-convicts-felicitated-by-rss-member-soon-after-their-release

Offline Dharma_Whispers

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #122 on: August 18, 2022, 10:26:38 pm »
People love to talk about creating "unity" in society. Can unity ever exist without justice?


Can justice ever exist without truth?

Why is it that Liberals always deny and obfuscate when we talk about the problems of Islam? Why do they ignore the fact that whenever Islam reaches critical mass with another significant minority it results in civil war (Lebanon, Nigeria, Sudan) where as Hinduism is able to exist in relative peace with other religions (Trinidad and Tobago, Fiji, Guyana, Suriname).


It is this constant outrage that is hijacking the rich, ancient, civilised culture of India and polluting minds in the present.


It is madness but it appears the tide is turning. These people without understanding Indian culture seem to create a parallel with everything Western because that is all they know. For them, everything must be looked at through the lens of Western culture. They ignore the basic fact that non-Western nationalism was responsible for the awakening that overthrew the chains of colonialism
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Offline Dharma_Whispers

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #123 on: August 18, 2022, 10:28:06 pm »
However, I would say your average person doesn't give a fuck about civilizational memory.

Civilizational memory is 100% a thing, the Ram Janmabhoomi movement pre-dates the formation of RSS by close to a century and it was kept alive in the memory of the masses by the brave Hindus who refused to let the truth die. When the ruling class and the establishment did their best to destroy all trace of it's existence, parents whispered stories to their children who passed it on to their children until the truth came to light 150 years later. When an attempt was made to re-write history by these charlatans hiding behind the veil of "Secularism" it is civilizational memory that has created an entire movement that now seeks to understand the essence of the Sanātana Dharma

There ain't fucker I have seen in my life that is following some ancient Indian culture.

Well, Swami Vivekananda agrees with you. The problem is that the current iteration is so divorced from what it was meant to be that the entire civilization needs to be re-built going back to its roots. The liberal reactionaries will screech saying that this means the RSS wants to go back to the caste system and cite the Manusmriti conveniently ignoring the fact that the RSS wants to anhilate caste to untie the Hindus and going back to the roots of Hinduism also means going back to the sages like Shankracharya

Quote
Question everything and disregard what is no longer relevant to the modern world or cannot be explained

Furthermore, they ignore that this is only the first iteration. The logical move is to not rebuild a Hindu civilization but to rebuild the Sanātana Dharma itself which encompass all the indigenous faiths :

1) Hinduism
2) Sikhism
3) Jainism
4) Buddhism
5) Adivasis

The Santana Dharma being the open-minded philosophy that it is can also make room for all faiths, race, creed etc including Islam provided they follow the law of the state and stop attempting to create a parallel state within a state and stop agitating for barbaric laws like Triple Talaq and defending Sharia law for personal matters

Heck, there is no such thing even as "Indian Culture" as it's an incredibly diverse country with many cultures that are extremely different from each other.

Categorically wrong, while there is incredible diversity there are civilizational links. The Vedas, Upanishads, Bhagvad Gita, Ramayana, Mahabharatha are some of the foundational blocks of all Indian culture. Even in rural India to this day, Muslims and Hindus participate together in the re-enactment of the Dharmic epics

Liberal Indians in their dogma have begun to become disassociated from reality itself. According to their logic, Western culture is not a thing. Preposterous.

As Punjabi for example, I share more culturally with Punjabis in Pakistan than say someone from South India. Same language, same food, many great thinkers, poets, and singers in the Punjabi language lived or were born across the border.

Comical take.

Punjabis and "South Indians" share the same concepts of Karma, Moksha, Samasara. All these concepts are non-existant in Pakistani Punjabis. The roots of Sikhism lie in Hinduism no matter how much secularists and Khalisthani terrorists try and disassociate them.

The ninth nanak of Sikhism died at the hands of the Mughal ruler Aurangzeb defending Hinduism

Quote
My answer is that I am a Hindu and I love Hindu dharma. How can anyone destroy it? It provides happiness both in this world as well as in the other world. There is no other religion like it. Only a deranged person or a fool would leave it to become vile. Hindu dharma would remain in the world for ever. It is not going to be destroyed by your efforts. - Guru Tegh Bahadur


You share the same language? If that were so important to Pakistani Punjabis I wonder why they refused to accept the Gurumukhi script and adopted the Shahmukhi script then (perhaps their delusions of claiming Arabic heritage appealed to their basal instincts). Same food? Last I checked Indian Punjab was almost 70% vegetarian where as Pakistani Punjab is close to 99% non-vegetarian. Seems like a big difference. I'm not even going to touch the elephant in the room - religion which is kind of a massive component of culture

If civilisational memory is a thing, when are you submitting yourself to the Greeks again?

Greeks who? Were they even around when the first Indian and Chinese civilizations turned up? Athens the mother of democracy? How is that even possible when the Rig-Veda describes democracy a solid 1000 years before Athenian democracy took hold or when the Licchavvis emerged in parallel with Athens?


« Last Edit: August 18, 2022, 10:32:32 pm by Dharma_Whispers »
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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #124 on: August 18, 2022, 10:51:28 pm »
Hey, Flinstone99 and Dharma_Flinstone are back...
Since haste quite Schorsch, but Liverpool are genuine fight pigs...

Offline Max_powers

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #125 on: August 18, 2022, 11:22:50 pm »


You clearly don't know a single thing about being Punjab or what culture means. Sikhism is different than Hinduism in many critical ways yet in you keep tying the two together as if they are the same. It incorporates influences from Sufism. It's monotheistic


As per wiki, the culture is defined as below.


Quote
Culture (/ˈkʌltʃər/) is an umbrella term which encompasses the social behavior, institutions, and norms found in human societies, as well as the knowledge, beliefs, arts, laws, customs, capabilities, and habits of the individuals in these groups

Are you telling me, people, that in India over past 4000 years there is a consistent "Indian culture"? Of course, there isn't. People's beliefs have changed, behaviours have changed, and institutions have changed and so have social norms, arts, laws and customs.

And of course, even geographically within India these things are not the same. You need to travel and meet more people from diverse backgrounds and viewpoints my friend.

Culture is not a religion either which you assume. You assume this because this is the only identity you have. You judge people based on religion. I judge people on who they are and how they act. I know twats like you, you are no different than neo-nazis IMO, use the same language as well.

Go live in a mud hut or a cave, give up your computer and worldly goods like holy men do, but you can't because you got a fire under your bum that forces you make a new account every few weeks on a football forum for a club that you don't support just because someone criticized the old tea vendor who is your hero.

Btw I am not a Khalistani. I grew up in a pretty multicultural India and I liked it, but I assumed Aurangzeb stole your candy or something and you are still slightly peeved from that. I have many Hindu, Sikh and Muslim friends. If every Indian behaved as you did then I would probably be pro-Khalistan.


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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #126 on: August 18, 2022, 11:28:29 pm »
He’s back again…
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Offline Dharma_Whispers

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #127 on: August 18, 2022, 11:39:08 pm »



As per wiki, the culture is defined as below.


So you agree with me. The beliefs, customs, social norms and laws have their origins in Hinduism all across India. Even Sikhism no matter how much the neo-Akalis have tried to deny it shares some core concepts with Hinduism like Karma which I pointed out

The ninth nanak called himself a Hindu and Ranjit Singh himself lived like a Hindu but apparently Max_Powers knows better  ::)

Are you telling me, people, that in India over past 4000 years there is a consistent "Indian culture"? Of course, there isn't. People's beliefs have changed, behaviours have changed, and institutions have changed and so have social norms, arts, laws and customs.

Of course there is. I listed them as well. Maybe read the post first.

Culture is not a religion either which you assume.

I never assumed this. I said it is a component of culture.

Hinduism has space for non-beleivers, materialists and what not unlike your golden child the so called "Sufi Islam"

I know twats like you, you are no different than neo-nazis IMO, use the same language as well.

This is a typical trait of liberals nowadays. When their argument is demolished they resort to attacks and insults and of course they go to Nazi comparisons. Unfortuantely, they are fascists who try and suppress debate and freedom of speech


 
but I assumed Aurangzeb stole your candy or something and you are still slightly peeved from that. 

Nah just slightly peeved he attempted to genocide an entire ethnic group, destroy a culture and yet we have liberal fascists who attempt to play it of as "syncretism"
« Last Edit: August 19, 2022, 12:08:02 am by Dharma_Whispers »
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Offline Dharma_Whispers

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #128 on: August 18, 2022, 11:45:16 pm »
. I grew up in a pretty multicultural India and I liked it,

Great so you are with us then. The Sanātana Dharma embraces multiculturalism
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Offline Max_powers

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #129 on: August 19, 2022, 04:15:59 am »
You sir are an absolute moron. Let me show you why.

Explain to us what living like an Hindu means? Be specific and do not change the topic to some historical bullshit.

Last I checked there are billion of them out there and they are all living their life in their own way. They pray to different gods, eat different foods (many even eat meat, some even eat beef), speak different languages, have different political beliefs etc.  Not a single one of them is the first emperor of Sikh emperor or living like him.

Offline Bullet500

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #130 on: August 19, 2022, 07:42:14 pm »
Can justice ever exist without truth?

Why is it that Liberals always deny and obfuscate when we talk about the problems of Islam? Why do they ignore the fact that whenever Islam reaches critical mass with another significant minority it results in civil war (Lebanon, Nigeria, Sudan) where as Hinduism is able to exist in relative peace with other religions (Trinidad and Tobago, Fiji, Guyana, Suriname).

Certainly not. Justice can't exist without truth. The truth is, the fact people can seemingly claim what you said, the credit for that goes to Ambedkar, Nehru and others.

In 1947, put India under a regime like today, it would have snowballed into something worse.

As far as Islamists are concerned, their deeds are out for the world to see and have been for quite some time. No one is under denial.

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #131 on: August 20, 2022, 06:03:24 am »
"Jürgen Klopp is bringing Liverpool's 'fuck you' back. And I can't wait."

Offline Bullet500

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #132 on: August 20, 2022, 07:37:40 pm »

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #133 on: August 23, 2022, 07:18:05 am »
I’ve been following this story for years because Jagtar is from the same village as my nan, and sadly the constant feet dragging by the UK government now starts to make sense

Jagtar Singh Johal case: UK spy agencies accused of tip-off that led to torture

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62639233
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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #134 on: August 23, 2022, 01:36:00 pm »
What's up with secularism?
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Offline Bullet500

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #135 on: August 23, 2022, 08:22:58 pm »
What's up with secularism?
Well, secularism's colloquial meaning in India has always been a bit odd. Most people interpret it as "acceptance of all religions" instead of indifference and separation of govt and religion.

Essentially, Indian society and governments have tolerated and condoned the worst aspects of every religion.

Now, a bunch of people managed to convince the majority that their bad habits aren't condoned, but minorities' bad habits are always condoned. The truth is that everybody's bad habits have been condoned and I will acknowledge that the mileage has varied a bit. Thanks to WhatsApp and fake news, the majority now thinks of themselves as civilisational victims where their bad habits are not condoned. You can see a few such people in this very thread.

Meanwhile, Adani is acquiring a stake in NDTV. Not exactly a fan of them, but at least they are against the current government. https://techcrunch.com/2022/08/23/adani-ndtv/

Offline Bullet500

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #136 on: August 24, 2022, 12:10:58 am »
Just to clarify, by "them" in the last sentence, I meant NDTV. Adani is in a symbiotic relationship with BJP.

Offline Max_powers

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #137 on: August 24, 2022, 02:32:59 am »
Well, secularism's colloquial meaning in India has always been a bit odd. Most people interpret it as "acceptance of all religions" instead of indifference and separation of govt and religion.

Essentially, Indian society and governments have tolerated and condoned the worst aspects of every religion.

Now, a bunch of people managed to convince the majority that their bad habits aren't condoned, but minorities' bad habits are always condoned. The truth is that everybody's bad habits have been condoned and I will acknowledge that the mileage has varied a bit. Thanks to WhatsApp and fake news, the majority now thinks of themselves as civilisational victims where their bad habits are not condoned. You can see a few such people in this very thread.

Meanwhile, Adani is acquiring a stake in NDTV. Not exactly a fan of them, but at least they are against the current government. https://techcrunch.com/2022/08/23/adani-ndtv/

This is bad. I think they may be only major Indian news channel that can say anything negative about the government. This will pretty much lead to informational monopoly. Political state of India now reminds me of Russia 10-15 years ago.

You can't have a functioning democracy without a free and fair media landscape. India is far from that. 

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #138 on: August 24, 2022, 08:33:05 am »
You can't have a functioning democracy without a free and fair media landscape. India is far from that.

Is there any nation thats as diverse as India and has a free fair functioning media landscape?

Genuine question. I really cant think of any.

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #139 on: August 24, 2022, 09:16:25 am »
Is there any nation thats as diverse as India and has a free fair functioning media landscape?

Genuine question. I really cant think of any.

The sample size is pretty much zero though. China is pretty homogeneous but comparable in size. Only one that comes to mind is Nigeria possibly, or even the USA?
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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #140 on: August 24, 2022, 09:29:26 am »
Im not sure if US media can be labelled as free and fair.

But then again, it does give an indication about how free media really is in different parts of the world. So to me, the lack of a free functioning media in a democracy is not really an India problem but a worldwide problem. But this discussion is for another thread.

As for Nigeria, I have no idea about Nigerian media other than the fact that they are probably more diverse than many of the other African nations. So I am not really in a position to comment on that.

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #141 on: August 24, 2022, 12:29:51 pm »
Im not sure if US media can be labelled as free and fair.

But then again, it does give an indication about how free media really is in different parts of the world. So to me, the lack of a free functioning media in a democracy is not really an India problem but a worldwide problem. But this discussion is for another thread.

As for Nigeria, I have no idea about Nigerian media other than the fact that they are probably more diverse than many of the other African nations. So I am not really in a position to comment on that.

You get a balance in the US, you have say Fox on one side and CNN on the other and I’m sure there’s many others I’m not aware of, you don’t have a plurality of views all in support of one party. CNN still operated independently, freely and highly critical of Trump and Republicans while they were in power and Fox does exactly the same now with Biden and the Democrats. I’m not sure how much more of a free media your expecting to see in any country if you think the US media market isn’t free and fair or that’s it’s even remotely comparable to India.
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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #142 on: August 24, 2022, 12:46:16 pm »
Manmohan Singh moved India forward economically, and Modi has been able to piggyback off of that momentum. But his government has overseen a horrible social shift towards radicalism and machismo.

In India, New Wave of Trauma as 11 Convicted of Rape and Murder Walk Free: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/20/world/asia/india-rape-muslim-hindu.html

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #143 on: August 24, 2022, 12:51:14 pm »
Is there any nation thats as diverse as India and has a free fair functioning media landscape?

Genuine question. I really cant think of any.

I live in Canada and it's as diverse as it gets. Not all of our media is trustworthy, some organizations are just lazy in terms of doing actual journalism others have a slant but the media is free to report what they want for the most part.

You get diversity in opinion, you have far-right news sites, you have center-left and center-right newspapers and TV news, and you also have left-leaning news sources.  A lot of Canadians are losing trust in media because they believe their own "research" that they do on Facebook and whatsapp but in general, I don't Canadian media is horrible.  They have issues to resolve but it's 100x better than Indian news for sure.


Offline Bullet500

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #144 on: August 24, 2022, 01:05:17 pm »
It's a conscious decision to support Modi/BJP by people who own media channels. Why? There's more money to be made if they side with this govt. Coincidentally (or may be not), most media owners belong to certain "trader castes".

Media's free criticism of the previous govt is what brought the previous govt down.

I also want to give an example of "The Times Group". They see themselves as an advertising powerhouse and simply want to conquer every piece of market. They have a reactionary channel "Times Now" that spreads hate against minorities and also have a much more toned down channel "Mirror Now" that caters to English-speaking liberals.

If Modi stops making money for them, I think they will sing a different tune. After all, the moment Zee Media Group owner's second Rajya Sabha tenure wasn't approved by BJP, he sanctioned a feature critical of Modi. The media is free. It's just that commercialisation of hate earns them money.

Offline Max_powers

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #145 on: August 24, 2022, 01:32:11 pm »
It's a conscious decision to support Modi/BJP by people who own media channels. Why? There's more money to be made if they side with this govt. Coincidentally (or may be not), most media owners belong to certain "trader castes".

Media's free criticism of the previous govt is what brought the previous govt down.

I also want to give an example of "The Times Group". They see themselves as an advertising powerhouse and simply want to conquer every piece of market. They have a reactionary channel "Times Now" that spreads hate against minorities and also have a much more toned down channel "Mirror Now" that caters to English-speaking liberals.

If Modi stops making money for them, I think they will sing a different tune. After all, the moment Zee Media Group owner's second Rajya Sabha tenure wasn't approved by BJP, he sanctioned a feature critical of Modi. The media is free. It's just that commercialisation of hate earns them money.

That is why my comparison was with Russia. The media is not state-controlled like in China but rather controlled by oligarchs that tend to profit from their ties to the Government. I don't even think making a profit is the main purpose of owning news media, it's more to do with earning influence in the government.

Many of them will switch sides if the government was to flip but for now they have an active interest in keeping the status quo.

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #146 on: August 24, 2022, 03:09:33 pm »
That is why my comparison was with Russia. The media is not state-controlled like in China but rather controlled by oligarchs that tend to profit from their ties to the Government. I don't even think making a profit is the main purpose of owning news media, it's more to do with earning influence in the government.

It's pretty much the same in every western country to be honest. Often its the media owners who choose what to publish  when and how. The silencing or attempted silcening of journalists and/or media platforms is concerning.

I don't really know enough about politics in India to know how competent Modi's administration is. Whilst we can all agree or disagree with policies, I think the most worrying influences are the hard right and the Hindu nationalists who often are one and the same.

Religious extremists have no place in our society, regardless of which persuasion. Self appointed moral policeman deciding what is right and wrong for the rest of us (but not usually themselves of course). Anyone who throws out words 'Liberals' as is usually not worth talking to.

I've seen posts from relatives that seem way too wedded to BJP which means the party never get held to account. It basically feels like its too easy to manipulate the masses via Facebook and whatsapp (same in the UK I guess).

India as a country is progressing fast but I do think society is not in a good place. The best young minds will continue to look west, and end up there as well. Some keep that open mind, but some will bring prejudices with them.
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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #147 on: August 24, 2022, 05:41:17 pm »
You get a balance in the US, you have say Fox on one side and CNN on the other and I’m sure there’s many others I’m not aware of, you don’t have a plurality of views all in support of one party. CNN still operated independently, freely and highly critical of Trump and Republicans while they were in power and Fox does exactly the same now with Biden and the Democrats. I’m not sure how much more of a free media your expecting to see in any country if you think the US media market isn’t free and fair or that’s it’s even remotely comparable to India.
CNN was recently bought out by Warner Brothers. A week ago, CNN axed Reliable Sources (and Sunday was the last episode). CNN executives have indicated that they wish to 'move the station more to the centre'. I already see CNN as operating in the centre, it just that they are unwilling to report batshit insane stuff as though it is valid opinion. I think what CNN really mean is change in way that makes it more friendly to republicans and Trumpers. But, in the present environment, I do not think it is possible to have both ways - an old fashioned TV news station will not work the way things stand now. So, they can either choose a sane approach and content (which appeals more to democrats), or an insane approach and content (which appeals more to Republicans). I am concerned about the direction CNN is heading.

Then there is MSNBC (which you did not mention). They are a decidedly Democrat-leaning station. But they also have many disaffected Republican presenters (Joe Scarborough, Nicole Wallace) and Republican political analysts - and the like -  such as Michel Steele, Jennifer Rubin, etc.
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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #148 on: August 24, 2022, 06:30:13 pm »
CNN was recently bought out by Warner Brothers. A week ago, CNN axed Reliable Sources (and Sunday was the last episode). CNN executives have indicated that they wish to 'move the station more to the centre'. I already see CNN as operating in the centre, it just that they are unwilling to report batshit insane stuff as though it is valid opinion. I think what CNN really mean is change in way that makes it more friendly to republicans and Trumpers. But, in the present environment, I do not think it is possible to have both ways - an old fashioned TV news station will not work the way things stand now. So, they can either choose a sane approach and content (which appeals more to democrats), or an insane approach and content (which appeals more to Republicans). I am concerned about the direction CNN is heading.

Then there is MSNBC (which you did not mention). They are a decidedly Democrat-leaning station. But they also have many disaffected Republican presenters (Joe Scarborough, Nicole Wallace) and Republican political analysts - and the like -  such as Michel Steele, Jennifer Rubin, etc.

That’s concerning but ultimately we’ll have to see. The Republicans and Trumpers have moved so far to the right that the centre is very much in the rear view mirror so if CNN moves to the centre that’s still overwhelmingly Democrat territory, nor should anyone be afraid of balance necessarily. Certainly last time I watched CNN which was probably not much more then a week ago the coverage was still very anti-Trump.
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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #149 on: August 24, 2022, 06:30:31 pm »
So you agree with me. The beliefs, customs, social norms and laws have their origins in Hinduism all across India. Even Sikhism no matter how much the neo-Akalis have tried to deny it shares some core concepts with Hinduism like Karma which I pointed out

The ninth nanak called himself a Hindu and Ranjit Singh himself lived like a Hindu but apparently Max_Powers knows better  ::)

"

Sikhism renounces various tenets of Hinduism over and over again - Guru Granth Sahib Ji directly states that idol worship is wrong, that followers of dharma have become misguided and that many of the practices associated with Hinduism are invalid. I’d suggest you study the religion before suggesting Sikhs are Hindus - it’s at best an ignorant statement.

Ranjit Singh was an emperor - he also used to drink, eat meat and committed adultery. To use him as an example of a model Sikh is absolutely pointless.

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #150 on: August 24, 2022, 06:34:39 pm »
CNN was recently bought out by Warner Brothers. A week ago, CNN axed Reliable Sources (and Sunday was the last episode). CNN executives have indicated that they wish to 'move the station more to the centre'. I already see CNN as operating in the centre, it just that they are unwilling to report batshit insane stuff as though it is valid opinion. I think what CNN really mean is change in way that makes it more friendly to republicans and Trumpers. But, in the present environment, I do not think it is possible to have both ways - an old fashioned TV news station will not work the way things stand now. So, they can either choose a sane approach and content (which appeals more to democrats), or an insane approach and content (which appeals more to Republicans). I am concerned about the direction CNN is heading.

Then there is MSNBC (which you did not mention). They are a decidedly Democrat-leaning station. But they also have many disaffected Republican presenters (Joe Scarborough, Nicole Wallace) and Republican political analysts - and the like -  such as Michel Steele, Jennifer Rubin, etc.


I know we're meandering off topic, but for a long time there was very little difference between the economic policies of both Republicans and Democrats (both substantially right-of-centre, from a UK perspective). It widened a smidge post-[Bill] Clinton as the Democrats embraced a few centrist (even vaguely centre-left) policies. Then the Tea-Party loons began to drag the Repugs to the right, which became worse when the religious extremists fully clambered on board and the orange shitwipe brought all that MAGA shite.

I think today, even with the Democrats being more economically centrist than they were under people like [Bill] Clinton, they're still closer to the policies of moderate Republicans than the modern, lunatic-led Repugs with their mix of far-right/neo-Nazi social policies and hard-right economic policy.
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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #151 on: August 24, 2022, 08:50:26 pm »
Sikhism renounces various tenets of Hinduism over and over again - Guru Granth Sahib Ji directly states that idol worship is wrong, that followers of dharma have become misguided and that many of the practices associated with Hinduism are invalid. I’d suggest you study the religion before suggesting Sikhs are Hindus - it’s at best an ignorant statement.

Ranjit Singh was an emperor - he also used to drink, eat meat and committed adultery. To use him as an example of a model Sikh is absolutely pointless.

Hahahaha I completely missed the mention of Ranjit Singh - perhaps a model ruler but definitely not a model Sikh considering the number of wives and concubines he had (which included Hindu and Muslim women), consumed opium and gambled as well apparently.
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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #152 on: August 24, 2022, 10:00:03 pm »
Hahahaha I completely missed the mention of Ranjit Singh - perhaps a model ruler but definitely not a model Sikh considering the number of wives and concubines he had (which included Hindu and Muslim women), consumed opium and gambled as well apparently.
But a model man, perhaps? ;D Well, that led me down a Wiki rabbit hole. The line of succession was quite astonishing. His son being quickly deposed and then assassinated, and the grandson (who was already ruler) dying on the same day as his father under mysterious circumstances. And the line of short reigns went on from there.
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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #153 on: August 24, 2022, 11:57:27 pm »
But a model man, perhaps? ;D Well, that led me down a Wiki rabbit hole. The line of succession was quite astonishing. His son being quickly deposed and then assassinated, and the grandson (who was already ruler) dying on the same day as his father under mysterious circumstances. And the line of short reigns went on from there.

Like many powerful people succession planning wasn’t his strong point.

The entire family died out in the end. His youngest son, Duleep Singh was the last maharaja when the British conquered the Sikh Empire, they converted him to Christianity and shipped him over to England where he became a favourite of Queen Victoria (known as the Black Prince), but was banned from going back to India. He escaped to Paris converted back to Sikhism but died while trying to work out a way to get back home. He had 8 children all of who died childless and that was the end of the royal line. If I recall correctly one of his daughters did return to Lahore (the capital of the former kingdom) and lived there until her death
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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #154 on: August 25, 2022, 07:46:58 am »
You get a balance in the US, you have say Fox on one side and CNN on the other and I’m sure there’s many others I’m not aware of, you don’t have a plurality of views all in support of one party. CNN still operated independently, freely and highly critical of Trump and Republicans while they were in power and Fox does exactly the same now with Biden and the Democrats. I’m not sure how much more of a free media your expecting to see in any country if you think the US media market isn’t free and fair or that’s it’s even remotely comparable to India.

Its not as bad as India now that NDTV is effectively taken over by Adani I will give you that. But beyond that, they all use the same tactics to scare people into supporting policies that the govt want them to support. Like Fox is predominantly Republican and MSNBC and the likes are Democratic but that stops just beyond criticising the opposition candidate. They have a common denominator in that they always publish and/or talk about articles that scare people into furthering their agenda and splitting up an already split up nation.

Canada is a good shout in diversity but then again I am unaware about the political scenario there and how free or otherwise the media there really is. So I will take the OPs word for it.

But steering back to India, I think this nationalism is just a phase with Modi. In the cycle of leaderships from history, there have been 2 or 3 inspiring leaders in succession and then another 2 or 3 dudheads. With India gaining independence just 75 years ago, there have been 67 years of dudheads who did the bare minimum to advance Indian interests on an international stage but regularly fell victim to international bluff. Thats why Indias biggest achilles heel was its colonialism history. The leaders did little to steer India out of that mindset, which is probably why India was still developing after 68 years of independence. Thats nearly 1 generation of birth and death. India could've achieved a lot more if the leaders were proactive and forward thinking. With Modi, its more of a catchup game on the international stage.

Modi certainly has his ups and downs but one thing I have noticed and felt is that the "feel" of colonial history is less today as it was 10 years ago under Dr. Singh. Modi has certainly made India more self confident, more independent and more dominant on the international stage, which they should be. 1.4b population, 5th largest economy in the world (and poised to be 3rd biggest in 2032), India needs to be more assertive and dominant. I dont see a problem with that.

The part where I have a problem with Modi is when he enacts policies that advance Indias interests without setting a narrative. He should be patient and tell his cabinet to be more controlled with their words. He should be aggressive enough without marginalising any section of society. Thats where he has failed miserably and made it look like India is turning authoritarian.

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #155 on: August 25, 2022, 09:55:31 am »
Its not as bad as India now that NDTV is effectively taken over by Adani I will give you that. But beyond that, they all use the same tactics to scare people into supporting policies that the govt want them to support. Like Fox is predominantly Republican and MSNBC and the likes are Democratic but that stops just beyond criticising the opposition candidate. They have a common denominator in that they always publish and/or talk about articles that scare people into furthering their agenda and splitting up an already split up nation.

Canada is a good shout in diversity but then again I am unaware about the political scenario there and how free or otherwise the media there really is. So I will take the OPs word for it.

But steering back to India, I think this nationalism is just a phase with Modi. In the cycle of leaderships from history, there have been 2 or 3 inspiring leaders in succession and then another 2 or 3 dudheads. With India gaining independence just 75 years ago, there have been 67 years of dudheads who did the bare minimum to advance Indian interests on an international stage but regularly fell victim to international bluff. Thats why Indias biggest achilles heel was its colonialism history. The leaders did little to steer India out of that mindset, which is probably why India was still developing after 68 years of independence. Thats nearly 1 generation of birth and death. India could've achieved a lot more if the leaders were proactive and forward thinking. With Modi, its more of a catchup game on the international stage.

Modi certainly has his ups and downs but one thing I have noticed and felt is that the "feel" of colonial history is less today as it was 10 years ago under Dr. Singh. Modi has certainly made India more self confident, more independent and more dominant on the international stage, which they should be. 1.4b population, 5th largest economy in the world (and poised to be 3rd biggest in 2032), India needs to be more assertive and dominant. I dont see a problem with that.

The part where I have a problem with Modi is when he enacts policies that advance Indias interests without setting a narrative. He should be patient and tell his cabinet to be more controlled with their words. He should be aggressive enough without marginalising any section of society. Thats where he has failed miserably and made it look like India is turning authoritarian.

I’m afraid India was always going to be a developing country long after independence, pretty much every non-white colony still is, the only exceptions I can think of is Singapore and Brunei but they are tiny in comparison to India obviously. What I will say and shouldn’t be underestimated is the progress that’s been made, from the first time I went to India in 1993 to my most recent visit in 2017 there’s been huge steps forward in terms of living standards compared to what we enjoy in the West. I don’t think people have an issue with India’s foreign policies either, most westerners would prefer a strong stand against Russia for its invasion of Ukraine but there’s also a degree of understanding why India is doing what it’s doing. What does worry a lot of us is the treatment of minorities and the silencing of journalists who criticise the BJP, for a democracy it doesn’t deal very well with dissent.
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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #156 on: August 25, 2022, 12:14:04 pm »
India needs to start by bringing in a uniform civil code to begin with.


The fact that for a certain section of the population, 15 year old girls are allowed to marry and have kids, polgamy is permissible and practiced and women have limited inheritance rights in a modern secular democracy is farcical.  Regressive does not even begin to describe it.

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #157 on: August 25, 2022, 12:23:44 pm »
India needs to start by bringing in a uniform civil code to begin with.


The fact that for a certain section of the population, 15 year old girls are allowed to marry and have kids, polgamy is permissible and practiced and women have limited inheritance rights in a modern secular democracy is farcical.  Regressive does not even begin to describe it.



Whose this certain section of the population your referring to?
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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #158 on: August 25, 2022, 12:43:41 pm »
But steering back to India, I think this nationalism is just a phase with Modi. In the cycle of leaderships from history, there have been 2 or 3 inspiring leaders in succession and then another 2 or 3 dudheads. With India gaining independence just 75 years ago, there have been 67 years of dudheads who did the bare minimum to advance Indian interests on an international stage but regularly fell victim to international bluff. Thats why Indias biggest achilles heel was its colonialism history. The leaders did little to steer India out of that mindset, which is probably why India was still developing after 68 years of independence. Thats nearly 1 generation of birth and death. India could've achieved a lot more if the leaders were proactive and forward thinking. With Modi, its more of a catchup game on the international stage.

Modi certainly has his ups and downs but one thing I have noticed and felt is that the "feel" of colonial history is less today as it was 10 years ago under Dr. Singh. Modi has certainly made India more self confident, more independent and more dominant on the international stage, which they should be. 1.4b population, 5th largest economy in the world (and poised to be 3rd biggest in 2032), India needs to be more assertive and dominant. I dont see a problem with that.

The part where I have a problem with Modi is when he enacts policies that advance Indias interests without setting a narrative. He should be patient and tell his cabinet to be more controlled with their words. He should be aggressive enough without marginalising any section of society. Thats where he has failed miserably and made it look like India is turning authoritarian.

Well said, ChaChaMooMoo. Cannot disagree with any of that.
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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #159 on: August 25, 2022, 01:10:13 pm »
Whose this certain section of the population your referring to?

Does it matter?

India has religion specific laws on inheritance, marriage, divorce, property rights etc, which is not the case for any other secular democracy. Women suffer massively from these laws. 15 year old girls getting married off to 55 year old perverts on a legal basis is abhorrent.

« Last Edit: August 25, 2022, 01:15:24 pm by "21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan! »
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