Author Topic: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2  (Read 22927 times)

Offline robgomm

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2014, 12:15:38 am »
Is there a tendency to hit it longer when Sturridge plays or is that me?

Offline jckliew

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2014, 12:20:58 am »
Lesson learned for me: Don't change what's working, ala Lucas as DM and not Stevie.

We escaped with a draw. IMO Villa was worth more than that.

So I see the game as a point won. 

p/s why is our defensive play so awkward and poor?
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2014, 12:21:37 am »
Quick question, that some of you might have some logical explanation for.

Why did we seem to always attack down the left using Cissokho and Henderson as opposed to down the right with Johnson and Sterling?

I couldn't make sense of it as the odd time we did go down the right I think we looked far more threatening.

I looked at the match stats on the official site. When I had both teams starters showing, I could only locate 10 LFC players. I was, like, where's Sterling? Once I removed the AVFC players from the graphic, he 'appeared'. Amazingly enough, there was one AVFC player (#23, Bertrand) whose average position over the entire match effectively coincided with that of Sterling.  Amazingly enough, there was also Delph (#16) who was very nearby in terms of average field position over the match.

Glen Johnson became our RCB after we switched to a back 3. Yes, we did switch to back 3. I didn't notice it live, but then Lee Dixon mentioned it (live co-commentator on NBCSN) and then Gerrard mentioned it during his post-match interview. His 'average position' graph clearly demonstrates it, as well. Therefore, attacking down our right-wing was not much of an option, even though Sterling had an excellent game and Gerrard found him a couple of times with nice long diagonal balls.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2014, 12:21:51 am »
Lesson learned for me: Don't change what's working, ala Lucas as DM and not Stevie.

We escaped with a draw. IMO Villa was worth more than that.

So I see the game as a point won. 

p/s why is our defensive play so awkward and poor?

If you keep an eye out for a day or two, I might have something worth reading on that.
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Offline wemmick

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2014, 12:22:22 am »
Is there a tendency to hit it longer when Sturridge plays or is that me?

I think so. I think we try to get the ball to him or Suarez as soon as possible when they play together.

Offline Bird Bird Bird The Bird Is The Word

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2014, 12:22:24 am »
It could work, but it wouldn't get the best out of Suarez. But Suarez's best is miles ahead of anyone else, so even a slightly restricted Suarez is a huge danger :D

He's played the role for Ajax, so it wouldn't be new to him - but the freedom he gets right now is part of why he scores so much. It would be better to shift Sturridge out wide and not lose that edge to Suarez's game, and give Sturridge the freedom to move inside, than it would be to restrict Suarez to a wing. It might also be a horses for courses thing, too - Suarez in the free role against the bottom 13 teams where we can go out and attack, and Sturridge in the central forward position when we have to counter-attack, with Suarez wide.

Aye, seems like playing a real conundrum for Rodgers.

Sturridge played wide right under AVB at Chelsea and he looked decent, but he's played there once or twice for us and looked poor.

I'd like to see it tried out, I wonder if Rodgers will go back to 3-5-2 at some point, it incorporates 1-2 pivot midfield, the two out-and-out strikers and we can play three centre backs or maybe a 4-1-2-1-2 with Coutinho as the number 10, might find some form in his best position.

Offline robgomm

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2014, 12:23:40 am »
I think so. I think we try to get the ball to him or Suarez as soon as possible when they play together.

Kinda feel like that myself. Means we don't work patterns in the same way we do when just Suarez is up front. Don't have data to back it up though.

Offline GrkStav

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2014, 12:25:32 am »
It's not as absolute as that. You can play with two pure defensive mids, with the wings your creative outlets and one of the forwards as a second striker. Or you can have one sitting midfield and one box-to-box, which is what we were attempting. The problem is that if you play two out and out wingers, they have to be a left- and right-footer. You can play them inverted, as was the fashion about 5 years ago, but a right-footed left winger and a right-footed right winger in a 4-4-2 will unbalance your team. The box-to-box runner also has to be a good long shooter, and has to make LATE runs, rather than just running flat out into the attack - and both of these traits are not really Henderson's forte. He gets too flat with the forwards and doesn't have the range of prime-age Gerrard, nor the timing of a Lampard, to be able to do that job in a midfield two. So effectively we ended up with two right wingers (Sterling and Johnson), three strikers (Suarez, Sturridge and Henderson), and inside left forward (Coutinho), a holding mid, a left back, and two central defenders defending the width of the pitch. We were very unbalanced towards the right until Rodgers made the change to the shape, and once it was all corrected we gained more consistent shape, spread the play and played better.

Thanks PoP. That was extremely enlightening. May I add that in addition to the issues you highlighted with Henderson in that role, we have the issue of Gerrard's (at the moment?) lack of fit with the 'sitting/holding midfielder' role and duties.
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2014, 12:30:58 am »
I don't understand your question. Why wouldn't we?

In order to minimize the possibility of the opposition finding it easy to TARGET him, especially in the absence of additional effective passers to Suarez and Sturridge at their feet, but not necessarily (as) long. If you have Lucas or Allen 'holding/sitting', and Gerrard and Henderson (nominally on the left, playing the 1.5 wide/central advanced midfield role, in a 442) feeding Suarez and Sturridge at their feet, you're better off. If you just have Gerrard (and have him sitting/holding) and Henderson as the box-to-box, you seem to be inviting trouble.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2014, 12:39:36 am »
In order to minimize the possibility of the opposition finding it easy to TARGET him, especially in the absence of additional effective passers to Suarez and Sturridge at their feet, but not necessarily (as) long. If you have Lucas or Allen 'holding/sitting', and Gerrard and Henderson (nominally on the left, playing the 1.5 wide/central advanced midfield role, in a 442) feeding Suarez and Sturridge at their feet, you're better off. If you just have Gerrard (and have him sitting/holding) and Henderson as the box-to-box, you seem to be inviting trouble.

That's Gerrard's way of playing though. He's not a dribbler, he doesn't have as much of his shooting power as he used to, he can't go box-to-box anymore, and he's not really an "eye of the needle" passer. So his technical strength now is his long passing ability, which, if he plays a deep role means going long to Suarez/Sturridge, or if he plays an attacking role means switching play. So wherever he plays, cutting out his passing options (which require a little more time than a quick short pass) effectively shuts down a player like Gerrard. That's what Villa did. They didn't shut down his position, but his skill. By the time Lucas came on, though, Villa's midfield probably lost their legs a bit, giving him more space.
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Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2014, 01:22:58 am »
We're back to that conundrum aren't we ? The one where we've got Sturridge consistently scoring and yet it appears that we can only fit in 3 attacking players and we've got 4 attacking players we are trying to fit in the team. In terms of what each of those players brings to the team, I think Suarez is by far and away the best player we've got and brings basically everything you can ask of a striker to the team. Sturridge and Sterling's skill to me might overlap a bit and Coutinho is quite unique in what he provides. So, really I'm starting to think we need Coutinho, Suarez and Sturridge playing in place of Sterling harsh as that is on Sterling.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2014, 01:24:18 am »
We're back to that conundrum aren't we ? The one where we've got Sturridge consistently scoring and yet it appears that we can only fit in 3 attacking players and we've got 4 attacking players we are trying to fit in the team. In terms of what each of those players brings to the team, I think Suarez is by far and away the best player we've got and brings basically everything you can ask of a striker to the team. Sturridge and Sterling's skill to me might overlap a bit and Coutinho is quite unique in what he provides. So, really I'm starting to think we need Coutinho, Suarez and Sturridge playing in place of Sterling harsh as that is on Sterling.

Unless we solve another problem area by using Sterling there.
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Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2014, 01:25:38 am »
Unless we solve another problem area by using Sterling there.

You mean by leaving Sturridge out ? I'm not entirely against that by the way.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2014, 01:26:52 am »
You mean by leaving Sturridge out ? I'm not entirely against that by the way.

No, by using Sterling in another part of the field, where we're having a problem, but allows Sterling to play to his strengths. Somewhere like right-back.
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Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2014, 01:31:50 am »
No, by using Sterling in another part of the field, where we're having a problem, but allows Sterling to play to his strengths. Somewhere like right-back.

In a 4-3-3 ? Do you think Sterling is equipped to play in a back 4 ? I know you are a keen proponent of the 3-5-2 based systems and although the initial experiment wasn't exactly a rousing success with that system, I'm willing to give it another go but with a different midfield combination. However, the 4-3-3 that we had going with Lucas, Allen and Henderson in the middle produced by far our best football this season IMO. Given this, do you think its worthwhile going back to the back 3 system again and risk losing the stability we found playing the 4-3-3 ?
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The chants for Kenny Dalglish that were heard again on Wednesday do not necessarily mean that the fans see him as the saviour. This is not Newcastle, longing for the return of Kevin Keegan. Simply, Dalglish represents everything Hodgson is not and, in fairness, everything Hodgson could or would not hope to be.

Offline Another Red

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2014, 01:35:05 am »
Sorry Corkboy, but that was a penalty all day, everyday. Guzan was lucky not to be cautioned.

It was a decent result given our poor start to the game. It's not the first time this season Rodgers has tried playing with two central midfielders and we've come unstuck. I can't remember the games exactly, but I'm pretty sure they were at home. Losing Lucas might force us to set up similarly next week unless we bring in a replacement.

My concern is that we have no plan B. When we play with three in the middle is when we look our best. As soon as we change that formula we look uncomfortable. Gerrard and Henderson are incompatible as the two midfielders. We need someone more defensive minded to sit and let them bridge the gap between the midfield and forward line. Demoting Gerrard/Henderson to the bench isn't an option.

I like us having Sturridge come off the bench too. He's proven quite effective in that role in the games against Everton & Stoke.
Obviously Rodgers can't afford to do that every game as he needs game time. This probably WAS the right game to start him, but we had issues in midfield.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #56 on: January 20, 2014, 01:37:37 am »
In a 4-3-3 ? Do you think Sterling is equipped to play in a back 4 ?

Yes. He has physically filled out, can hold players off, and has the stamina to get up and own the field, not to mention he makes great runs, can dribble and has a great pass, and as we saw against Spurs, a great long pass as well.

Quote
I know you are a keen proponent of the 3-5-2 based systems and although the initial experiment wasn't exactly a rousing success with that system, I'm willing to give it another go but with a different midfield combination.

We only lost one league game with it. 3 wins, 1 draw, 1 loss. I think it was quite successful and we probably abandoned it too early at the time.

Quote
However, the 4-3-3 that we had going with Lucas, Allen and Henderson in the middle produced by far our best football this season IMO. Given this, do you think its worthwhile going back to the back 3 system again and risk losing the stability we found playing the 4-3-3 ?

I'm not advocating going back to the 3-5-2. I'm saying we replace Johnson with Sterling. Or replace Cissokho with Sterling, and push Johnson across to left back where he has more focus. Lucas, Henderson, Allen/Gerrard, Coutinho, Suarez, Sturridge.
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Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #57 on: January 20, 2014, 01:43:00 am »
Yes. He has physically filled out, can hold players off, and has the stamina to get up and own the field, not to mention he makes great runs, can dribble and has a great pass, and as we saw against Spurs, a great long pass as well.

We only lost one league game with it. 3 wins, 1 draw, 1 loss. I think it was quite successful and we probably abandoned it too early at the time.

I'm not advocating going back to the 3-5-2. I'm saying we replace Johnson with Sterling. Or replace Cissokho with Sterling, and push Johnson across to left back where he has more focus. Lucas, Henderson, Allen/Gerrard, Coutinho, Suarez, Sturridge.

All fair points. Interesting to hear your thoughts as always.
Quote from: Dion Fanning

The chants for Kenny Dalglish that were heard again on Wednesday do not necessarily mean that the fans see him as the saviour. This is not Newcastle, longing for the return of Kevin Keegan. Simply, Dalglish represents everything Hodgson is not and, in fairness, everything Hodgson could or would not hope to be.

Offline Danny_

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #58 on: January 20, 2014, 02:22:41 am »
For anybody that wants to watch it again, here are the extended highlights:

http://www.tsmplug.com/football/liverpool-2-2-aston-villa-2014-highlights-videos/


Gerrard gave a very frank and honest self-assessment when asked about the new role in the post-match interview.  I think his words were along the line of - "If BR looks at the first half again, he might not play him in the sweeper position or might even bench him.   You have to admire the honesty and his own admission that the performance wasn't good enough. The deeper role is not going to work.  This whole thing reminds me of when Houllier was trying to turn Biscan into a defender.    It just didn't play to his strengths.   

But where does that leave us? Well, despite his being limited in the role he normally plays, Gerrard still has the ability to unlock a defense.  He has a great delivery for set-pieces.  The question is - do we need that at the expense of playing another more energetic midfielder like Allen who would contribute more to covering the defense?  I guess it depends upon who we are playing and the discussion is probably mute as BR probably won't even consider leaving him out but maybe, he should do.   

So onto what went wrong.  Firstly, it could have been 4 or 5 in the first half.  Just before the goal, both Johnson and Toure (I'm not sure which one it was - I think it was Johnson) gives his man a free header from a corner that hits the post.  From a bloody corner. 
For the goal, I said previously that Cissokho was not at fault for the goal.  Just take a look at his position in the box.  Is he trying to pick up the runner and stop the danger.  Of course he isn't - he's ball watching just like Gerrard as he meanders into the box.  Gerrard lets the runner get in front of him and it's 1-0.  I can't remember who said this but it was a good description of the mentality of a good defender - a good defender is always thinking about the worst case scenario and trying to protect the team from it.  None of our current crop fit that description except for maybe Skrtel.

For the second goal, I think it's unfair to blame Johnson although a better defender would have been stronger on the header.  Mignolet has to take a lot of the blame as he comes for it and misses it.  What preceded that though was Cissokho being drawn to the ball way up the pitch which allows them to attack down the right.  I don't know if Cissokho fell down but I didn't see him anywhere in the picture when the goal was scored.  Was he busting a gut to get back? Anyway, not much you can say about it other than it was a poor individual error from Mignolet.

So what went wrong with the defense.  I actually don't know if it is the system we played.  I think it is just a personnel issue.  Our defenders (except for Skrtel) are at best average (and that is being kind).  We are missing our first choice LB, our first choice CBs and our replacements are not good enough to cover for them.  IMHO, our first choice RB is not good enough either but we could get away with some defensive fraility if there was only one vulnerability.  But there are multiple ways that Villa were able to attack us.  Mostly, the attacks came down the flanks but they were also able to get at us through the center, partially due to errors by Gerrard that gave the ball away in defensive positions, partially due to Toure being weak in the air at times.

Anyway, that's the negative.  On the positive side, very clinical finish by Sturridge, Henderson and Sterling played well.  Skrtel did okay.  2-2 at home against Villa is not good enough but once we get everyone back, I honestly think our squad is better than Spurs so I am still not going to panic.  We've squandered our cushion though and it will be quite a crushing blow if we fail to get 4th this season.  The head to head games against Everton, Spurs and United are going to be huge now.  I just hope that we put in a better performance against the bitters Tuesday week from now. 

 



Offline Kopenhagen

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #59 on: January 20, 2014, 02:25:00 am »
Is there a tendency to hit it longer when Sturridge plays or is that me?

We hoofed it a lot in the first half versus Stoke when he was on the bench, too. The past few games there's been an uncharacteristic amount of long balls played up to our forwards. They were feeding on scraps for most of the game.
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #60 on: January 20, 2014, 03:33:22 am »
That's Gerrard's way of playing though. He's not a dribbler, he doesn't have as much of his shooting power as he used to, he can't go box-to-box anymore, and he's not really an "eye of the needle" passer. So his technical strength now is his long passing ability, which, if he plays a deep role means going long to Suarez/Sturridge, or if he plays an attacking role means switching play. So wherever he plays, cutting out his passing options (which require a little more time than a quick short pass) effectively shuts down a player like Gerrard. That's what Villa did. They didn't shut down his position, but his skill. By the time Lucas came on, though, Villa's midfield probably lost their legs a bit, giving him more space.

I thought I had failed to express myself well and was going to attempt to do so again. In doing so, I realized I may have stumbled on something else (perhaps?):

Had Coutinho played better while he was on the pitch, had his passing been on, had his defending been better, BR's experiment/gut feeling may have worked like a charm. AVFC would soon find out that all this excessive/specialized attention to SG was not paying dividends (since PC would be 'conducting', getting LS, DS, and RS involved and in good positions to score, etc.) and would 'ease up' on SG, thus allowing him to contribute HIS part, making up for the possible diminution in PC's 'conducting' prowess resulting from the extra-attention. Back and forth, so to speak, between Gerrard and Coutinho 'conducting the orchestra' with Henderson providing the hustle, energy, etc.

Maybe?

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Offline GrkStav

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #61 on: January 20, 2014, 03:34:58 am »
We hoofed it a lot in the first half versus Stoke when he was on the bench, too. The past few games there's been an uncharacteristic amount of long balls played up to our forwards. They were feeding on scraps for most of the game.

Is it the case that, in general and over all the games where both have featured, we tend to attempt a larger number of long balls as a team, all other things equal than when only one of them features?
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Offline Kopenhagen

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #62 on: January 20, 2014, 03:45:40 am »
Is it the case that, in general and over all the games where both have featured, we tend to attempt a larger number of long balls as a team, all other things equal than when only one of them features?

Possibly. It would be an interesting stat to parse. Also, it may be a corollary of Gerrard playing as the holding midfielder. I don't have any stats to back that theory up, however.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #63 on: January 20, 2014, 03:52:16 am »
I thought I had failed to express myself well and was going to attempt to do so again. In doing so, I realized I may have stumbled on something else (perhaps?):

Had Coutinho played better while he was on the pitch, had his passing been on, had his defending been better, BR's experiment/gut feeling may have worked like a charm. AVFC would soon find out that all this excessive/specialized attention to SG was not paying dividends (since PC would be 'conducting', getting LS, DS, and RS involved and in good positions to score, etc.) and would 'ease up' on SG, thus allowing him to contribute HIS part, making up for the possible diminution in PC's 'conducting' prowess resulting from the extra-attention. Back and forth, so to speak, between Gerrard and Coutinho 'conducting the orchestra' with Henderson providing the hustle, energy, etc.

Maybe?

Possibly. We were effectively losing the ball any time Gerrard got it because they pressed him, and any time Coutinho got it, because his passing range was way off and he was gifting the ball back to the opposition. Add to that Suarez being out of sorts, not getting any service, and Henderson having a shampoo game, and the recipe for disaster was there.
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Offline Melbourne Red

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #64 on: January 20, 2014, 04:00:04 am »
Possibly. We were effectively losing the ball any time Gerrard got it because they pressed him, and any time Coutinho got it, because his passing range was way off and he was gifting the ball back to the opposition. Add to that Suarez being out of sorts, not getting any service, and Henderson having a shampoo game, and the recipe for disaster was there.

And with three of the back four out of sorts & Mignolet also shakey then maybe a draw was a bloody miracle!

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #65 on: January 20, 2014, 04:11:32 am »
The players love him because he is a peoples coach. He talks to them. He emphasis the holistic nature of developing not just good footballers but rounded human beings. All good. But does it leave him in a bind? Constantly extolling the virtues of Gerrard, he ends up putting him on such a pedestal where he has to somehow fit him in to the team, even at the cost of the shape, balance. A great coach develops players, a manager manages a team, and that means tough decisions.


How Rodgers has utilized all of the skills of our captain has been unbelievably savvy.  A new coach who knows that the house needs to be cleaned or that changes are coming that have little to do with his appointment (Andy Carroll, Stewart Downing, Charlie Adam, Pepe Reina, Maxi Rodriguez, Dirk Kuyt, Craig Bellamy etc.) still has to maintain his relationships with the squad, especially since he sees himself a clinician, a player's coach, and one of the best in the business at man management.  Also, Gerrard is already on a pedestal in the city.  Rodgers could not have done what he has done, so quickly without Gerrard's leadership with Suarez, the locker room, and the marketing successes that Stevie G performs almost daily.  Captain fantastic has more street cred than the manager.  Until Brendan wins something, this dynamic will hold.  Carra coming back into the squad was a signal of this, plus Rodgers got it quickly like bringing in Rush, Fowler and past Liverpool greats to be ambassadors.  The club is about unity and a few messages.  Getting embroiled into a tete-tete with both our world class players would have been a nightmare and probably cost him his job.  No, I think Rodgers has done what needed to be done and he did it (imo- from afar) in a truly authentic manner.  He stayed pretty true to what he has said all along. So, no more nonsense about Steve Gerrard bias by the manager.  The Spurs match is still only a few weeks old, and the move to excise our #8 out of starting line-up is insane in so many ways only a coach can truly calculate on the practice pitch.

« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 04:16:13 am by Trendisnotdestiny »
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #66 on: January 20, 2014, 04:55:19 am »
Possibly. We were effectively losing the ball any time Gerrard got it because they pressed him, and any time Coutinho got it, because his passing range was way off and he was gifting the ball back to the opposition. Add to that Suarez being out of sorts, not getting any service, and Henderson having a shampoo game, and the recipe for disaster was there.

Excellent. I am not 100% sure what "having a shampoo game" entails (is that a good thing, a bad thing, or a "rinse, lather, repeat" thing?), though.

One of, if not the, reason(s) for Suarez being out of sorts was that he was being roughed up/fouled with impunity, and his attempts to highlight it (as he does well, not the other way, which he is terrible at, despite all the B.S. about him) were generally fruitless.  In general, AVFC were allowed by the referee to 'strategically' foul way too much and too repeatedly.
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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #67 on: January 20, 2014, 04:58:20 am »
Possibly. It would be an interesting stat to parse. Also, it may be a corollary of Gerrard playing as the holding midfielder. I don't have any stats to back that theory up, however.

I am reminded that it is not long-balls as such, or the sheer number of them that matters (or is a negative). It's how effective they are, how geared to them the personnel involved are. AVFC do the long-ball thing quite effectively, they train for it, they select players for it, they get quite a lot of good 'mileage' out of it. We need a different type of long-ball strategy, given the 'targets' and their skill-set, as well as the 'surrounding/supporting' (not passing, in this case) players.
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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #68 on: January 20, 2014, 05:06:19 am »
Excellent. I am not 100% sure what "having a shampoo game" entails (is that a good thing, a bad thing, or a "rinse, lather, repeat" thing?), though.

You do a lot of running, but you don't get into the nitty gritty of the game, because you don't want to mess up your hair or get your clothes dirty.

Quote
One of, if not the, reason(s) for Suarez being out of sorts was that he was being roughed up/fouled with impunity, and his attempts to highlight it (as he does well, not the other way, which he is terrible at, despite all the B.S. about him) were generally fruitless.  In general, AVFC were allowed by the referee to 'strategically' foul way too much and too repeatedly.

Very much so. The knee into the back of the leg from Clark was as much of a card as the one Barton did against the City player in 2012
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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #69 on: January 20, 2014, 06:48:47 am »
You do a lot of running, but you don't get into the nitty gritty of the game, because you don't want to mess up your hair or get your clothes dirty.

Very much so. The knee into the back of the leg from Clark was as much of a card as the one Barton did against the City player in 2012

Great explanation of the "shampoo game" expression.

I've learned two new expressions recently: "anorak/anoraking" and "shampoo game".

RAWK is educational in more ways that one!  :wave

Oh, another who was the victim of repeated strategic fouling with (especially card/caution) impunity was Sterling.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 06:50:57 am by GrkStav »
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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #70 on: January 20, 2014, 07:56:44 am »
No, by using Sterling in another part of the field, where we're having a problem, but allows Sterling to play to his strengths. Somewhere like right-back.

He'd be a whizz up and down, and his full on pest/gadfly defending is really coming on nicely, but do you not think his height/physical presence might be a bit of a liability against larger teams/teams that like deep crosses/even long diagonal balls etc. though? Genuine question and believe me I'm sitting here thinking why it might not be (learning you see)—his quickness, anticipation and spring maybe... reassigning things at set pieces perhaps... but I can't help thinking that we could suffer the same thing as Villa's second goal, as a) we don't seem impregnable when it comes to crosses at the moment, left or right, and b) I've not much confidence in Mig's coming for them. I've nightmmare visions of our center backs being drawn to the left and him being left at the far post, arriving first to a deep cross... and then a big forward arriving over the top of him, and leaving him, ball and all in the back of the net.

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #71 on: January 20, 2014, 07:59:13 am »
Possibly. We were effectively losing the ball any time Gerrard got it because they pressed him, and any time Coutinho got it, because his passing range was way off and he was gifting the ball back to the opposition. Add to that Suarez being out of sorts, not getting any service, and Henderson having a shampoo game, and the recipe for disaster was there.

that's it in a nutshell isn't it - and they were good too of course in the first half.

PS what's a shampoo game? (EDIT)  Ah should have read down a bit further - thanks also for Grk's match  analysis

(i thought it was going to have something to do with jason macateer )
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 08:02:32 am by kavah »

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #72 on: January 20, 2014, 08:15:57 am »
If the weekend game has finally shown Brendan that we can't go 2 in midfield and expect to win games then it is (almost) worth dropping 2 points.

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #73 on: January 20, 2014, 08:37:21 am »
I don't know if thats how Villa usually set up, as I have not seen them play that often.....but I know they have a lot of pace in their team and are a young set of lads who you would think are very influenced by moments in a football game rather than having any sustained control on things....

Saying that I thought it was a quite arrogant selection made by Rodgers (Though he did well to correct it later).
I know Gerrard was to be utilised as a pure holding midfielder.......but on his own straight away? And at home to a team that you know have a lot of legs in them?

Villa did well, but they didn't have to try too hard.

Add a complete lack of anybody wearing red knowing what to do with the ball for a good half hour it was really a shambles, and quite frightening to watch. How can we start off this poorly after talking up title aspirations during the week?

I do not know the answer. Complacency had a hand in it im sure, with too many players thinking they had enough to settle in. The defence was under pressure straight away and from the backline we had yesterday nobody was either in the right form or had the kinda voice to get a hold of things. You'd think Gerrard woulda helped out in that bit but he was having a shocker and seemed to withdraw himself a bit......


The goal before halftime was the only bit of quality we produced in the 90 minutes really. We came out in the 2nd half with a little fight and got the penalty....there was contact...but he went down a bit easy. After that it seemed we reverted to thinking we would have this match in the bag and never mounted any kind of sustained pressure or clear cut chances to lift everyone. Villa grew stronger and saw out the game comfortably.

Disappointed we didnt win, but glad we didnt lose just about sums up that showing.


Its not the end of the world, Sakho will be back for the next game (looks like we need him!) and Sterling continues to impress.....this time i thought he did well enough even when the rest weren't performing. Sturridge has 90 minutes match fitness and another goal under his belt. We are not far off the top and right in the mix for fourth still.....

We have to set this as the lowest point from here on though....we need to either match or do better than the teams around us for a number of weeks so that we can go into the last part of the season full of confidence. I have a feeling there will be alot of back and forth though....but once European football starts again we need to quicken the tempo in our push for fourth. Especially on the pitch...


Really feel bad for Lucas.....hope it is not too serious. Our thin squad has taken some beatings to its key personnell this season. Thats why I think its important to remember how well we have done to be only 8 points off the top at this stage...and level or potentially 1 point off fourth.

Onwards
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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #74 on: January 20, 2014, 09:30:55 am »
Am I being too harsh?

No you're not. The first 35 minutes were one of the most shambolic home perfromances I've ever seen (not exaggerating). Full credit to Villa they played very well but they are still Aston Villa but we made them look like Bayern. Please somebody correct me if I'm wrong but the last time Rodgers played this 4-2-4 was against Southampton away last year when Allen played next to Gerrard and again we got battered. It struck me as being extremely arrogent on Rodgers behalf. Yes we've been good at home but keep the system that has made us good. Other top clubs would play their normal game get the game won and then maybe try something (or in Wenger or Mourinhos case never try new formations just ask the personnel to adapt).
The game was calling out for Coutinho to make way for Sturridge but Rodgers must have thought 'it's only Villa do we really need Lucas or Allen as the 3rd midfielder?' well the answer is a resounding YES

Does it disturb anyone that our main distribution line was from Skrtel?

Again yes but that again is all to do with the lack of Lucas/Allen dropping deep and linking the play. In my opinion of course some players had off days but the two points were dropped on that one decision. Allen or Lucas play instead of Coutinho or Sterling and we win

Did anyone play well? Sterling?

Sterling kept up his good form, Henderson played well in the 2nd half when he didn't have to do everything in midfield but apart from that no

How much did Villa's tactics and defending help their cause?


They did play well and knew exactly what they were doing so full credit to Lambert but we helped them so much. A poor team can plan for a game against a great team and do everything right but if the better team also does their job then there's only going to be one winner. The main problem was we didn't keep up our end of the bargain

Gerrard at defensive midfield: any evidence that he can do this role?

He hasn't got the discapline unfortunately and the problem is I don't think he ever will. Gerrard has been our best player and saviour for so long, running all over the pitch he doesn't seem to know how to be anything else. We let him do it for so many years because he was so good at it, it was easier to let him do everything than try and control him however now his legs are going but his brain is still in 2006 mode when he was the best box to box midfielder in the world. I hate saying anything bad about him because he's the greatest player in Liverpools history in my opinion and everything is allowed an off day but a proper DM is someone who is dedicated in that role and knows exactly what is expected of them (Masch, Makelele etc) not a box to box maurerding midfield who is getting older 


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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #75 on: January 20, 2014, 09:31:56 am »
Just a quick reflection to unburden my own chest - probably repeating what many have said.

I think the gain at Stoke actually resulted in the pain of Staurday. I'm convinced Brendan was compromised by the outstanding cameo from Sturridge at Stoke.

I don't think there's anyway he'd have really wanted to disturb the formation given the recent success of the three in midfield and Luis up front as seen in the the recent performance levels [even in the two losses at City and Chelsea]. But with the outstanding level of Daniel's cameo the previous week and no doubt his performances in training I think it meant he simply felt compelled to play him alongside Luis. I also think he felt with the home advantage and the quality of the two up front we could carry it off even if some game control was sacrificed. .

It meant, of course, that unless he played three at the back we would have only two in central midfield. Knowing Villa attack with three up front he backed away from three at the back.

Then came the other aspect which is compromising him. Stevie. His problem was one of his two in midfield was Stevie and frankly Stevie is simply not prepared to do the shift demanded of that role or is no longer physically capable of doing so. Compounding the problem Villa gave the performance of their lives which in fairness not even Lambert or the Villa players probably anticipated. Anfield seemed to energise them to a level that would have troubled any side, albeit our set-up put wind in their sails.

They promptly flooded the middle, won every loose ball going, their full backs pushed high up and all those eight players played with such energy, verve and determination that we were simply overrun and were fortunate not to have been completely embarrassed in a way most of us have only ever rarely seen at Anfield.

Lucas and later Allen coming on allied to Villa being unable to sustain their verve at the sensational pitch at which they'd opened and with Abgongalloa going off brought some much needed sanity to the game from our viewpoint. Villa became more and more reliant on the big punt up to Benteke.

And let's give the team a pat on the back here for pulling back in that revised scenerio from the jaws of a comprehensive defeat.

I think Brendan will realise the errors of this. He'll still feel compromised by the square pegs of Sturridge and Gerrard but I'm sure he'll relaise that the outstanding assets of both players will only enhance us when a degree of game control has been achieved.

I'm sure of that and comfortable about what lies ahead.

 :)
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 09:46:17 am by Timbo's Goals »

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #76 on: January 20, 2014, 09:34:53 am »
Funny how things work but I though Henderson's selection in a midfield 2 was more of a problem than Gerrard's selection. He got caught beyond the play too many times when the ball went up to Benteke.

Let's not forget we have been overrun with Lucas and Gerrard in there together before and the comments have been because Lucas gets no help.

That's not a criticism on Henderson, as for me he is pretty much an attacking player for us now.

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #77 on: January 20, 2014, 09:38:56 am »
They targeted Gerrard because of what he can do with the ball, not the position he was playing. The plan was to stop him switching the play and getting the ball long to Suarez and Sturridge's feet. They would have done that if we'd started with a midfield three with Lucas in the holding role.

True but there would have been a line of two CM they would have to get through first before getting to Gerrard, like line backers protecting the quarter back.

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #78 on: January 20, 2014, 09:40:32 am »
Funny how things work but I though Henderson's selection in a midfield 2 was more of a problem than Gerrard's selection. He got caught beyond the play too many times when the ball went up to Benteke.

Let's not forget we have been overrun with Lucas and Gerrard in there together before and the comments have been because Lucas gets no help.

That's not a criticism on Henderson, as for me he is pretty much an attacking player for us now.

I thought in the circumstances in which he found himself  [ie at times 4 against 1  ;D] he was absolutely bloody amazing in the manner in which he dealt with it. Stevie on the other hand...Brendan really does need to find the right vehicle for his still prodigious talents. A centre midfield spot as one of two is CATEFUCKINGORICALLY not that vehicle.

 ;D

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2
« Reply #79 on: January 20, 2014, 09:42:59 am »
I thought in the circumstances in which he found himself  [ie at times 4 against 1  ;D] he was absolutely bloody amazing in the manner in which he dealt with it. Stevie on the other hand...Brendan really does need to find the right vehicle for his still prodigious talents. A centre midfield spot as one of two is CATEFUCKINGORICALLY not that vehicle.

 ;D

Indeed. But I think it wasn't his role that was the problem but the fact it was a 2. Take Gerrard out and put Allen or Lucas in and I still think we would have struggled.