Author Topic: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations  (Read 11843 times)

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« on: January 17, 2013, 06:32:02 pm »
Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations

One of the maxims of tactics in coaching and managing a football team is that tactics are like a short blanket – Pull one end up too high, and your feet will get cold; Pull the blanket down to cover your feet and your head will get cold. The trick is to find the happy medium which gives you balance and maximum coverage with minimum exposure. As we have seen previously, there are underlying principles that influence the flow and shape of both attack and defence.  We will look at one specific principle here – mobility – and how it affects the shape of the other team, and how different types of mobility can temporarily shift the space on the field.

A Few Basics –

Before we begin, the following will be based on a number of parameters. Firstly, Liverpool will always be the team facing “upward”. Thirdly, the reference points will be a 3-channel by 4-zone grid. Secondly, the field and formations will be split into four bands along the length of the field. If the field is compressed by a defence pushing up, the 3x4 grid merely stretched to accommodate this – if you are considering the implications of a back four pushed up, for example, imagine the grid being stretched from the goal-line to the back four, and the other three lines being compressed to compensate:



The Channels are always rigid though. Thirdly, as a result, formations will always be spoken of in four bands rather than three, with freedom to extrapolate positioning for different formations if desired (so a 4-4-2 could be broken down to a 4-2-2-2, a 4-1-3-2 or a 4-4-1-1, for example). The bands are: Defensive Zone, Defensive Mid Zone, Attacking Mid Zone, and Forward Zone. Fullbacks will be considered Defensive Mids for the sake of argument and clarity, if they are regularly pushed high. From this, you can extrapolate roles such as Wingbacks and Box to Box midfielders, etc. Lastly, a reference to this article posted by Royhendo in the Principles thread will give a good summary of where this thread is going:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2013/jan/15/the-question-4231-football-tactics

Additionally, ignore the actual players in positions - they are just there for reference, so Stewart Downing is the Left Back merely for example, Sterling is the right winger over Borini, etc. The ideas work regardless of who plays where.


And so we begin…

The Field is not the same for both Teams -

If we look at the Principles of Play, then, and specifically mobility, we can start to see the logic behind formations and why managers favour some formations over others, and why they build their defences in different areas of the field to other coaches. Let’s start by looking at a Liverpool 2-3-2-3 against a 4-4-2, using our 3x4 cell grid mentioned earlier:





What we can see here is that there are virtually no usable spaces behind the opposition back four if they play with conservative fullbacks. What we also notice, though, is that there ARE spaces in FRONT of the opposition fullbacks. These spaces mean that the wing forwards can drop off into these spaces against a 4-4-2 team, and the fullbacks will either have to follow the run, which will create space for an Enrique or Johnson to attack; or they will hold their position, which means that the wing forward will have space to play in. This is intriguing in light of Rodgers’ statements concerning Suarez playing wide. If he plays in this space (as he frequently does now), the fullback is either going to be beat by Suarez’ dribbling, meaning the central defenders will be overloaded. If he plays conservatively and tightly marks Suarez, whoever the left back is will have a lot of space to play with. If the opposition outside right mid then decides to play conservatively also (as McClean did for Sunderland), then the opposition attack begins to be rendered ineffective already, as their starting positions will not be optimal for quick counter attacking, and most teams playing a 4-4-2 in the Premier League aren’t looking to make the Play.

Another thing we notice is in central midfield – it is accepted that a midfield three against a 4-4-2 will have a numerical advantage in the middle of the field, but while that is great in terms of possession, essentially it makes one of the midfielders redundant, spatially. When we look at our diagram again, we see that Lucas is the one that is left with a lot of space to patrol, but nobody to mark, essentially. It also explains why Gerrard dropping into this space from a more forward central position, as he did against Sunderland, will have a lot more space to plan his passes. So what do we do with the redundant player? In terms of playing against a 4-4-2, we can see that the dangerous spaces for a Liverpool team under Rodgers are behind the fullbacks. The two central defenders are occupied by a forward each. So what is the solution? The solution is simply to have Lucas drop into the defence, freeing up both central defenders to occupy these spaces whenever the ball is played in. Add to that two athletic wingbacks, playing selectively in their attacking runs, and we can see how we are managing the space defensively, eliminating most of the opposition opportunities to penetrate quickly, and forcing them to play a slower build-up game. If this is not their natural attack, they will surrender possession a lot more often than they would like. The movement of the wingers and central midfielders into the two spaces underneath the defending team’s fullbacks also pulls their shape apart as their players track their man, creating space in the 4-4-2 that didn’t previously exist.

What is the situation, then, if the other team plays a 4-3-3? In terms of the forwards against the defence, the situation is the same:



But now the space behind the wingbacks is occupied by the opposition wingers. This then necessitates the Liverpool wingbacks to play more conservatively. Dropping Lucas into the space between the defenders will help, but it will also leave a central midfielder free. So for this type of formation, the key mobility actions will come from the wingers, as before, but also the wingbacks. The game will almost become a battle of which team’s wingbacks will be more effective. Essentially, for a Rodgers team against a 4-3-3, the game comes down to who has the most skilful players, whose fullbacks can do a complete attack and defence job, and whose forwards can eliminate the opposite central defenders the most.

Against a formation such as a 3-5-2, though, things get a bit tricky. As we will see, the space behind the wingbacks is still vulnerable, but the space in which the front three can comfortably move in order to drag the opposition defenders out of their zones is now completely absent – in fact, the wingbacks and the outside central defenders effectively double up on the Liverpool wingers. This explains the trouble Liverpool had creating chances against Villa, who were disciplined and hard-working, as well as incredibly focused on the principle of consolidation. This left little attacking space free, and forced the wingbacks more forward than was safe, which necessitated the central defenders (Agger and Skrtel) wider to cover for the wingbacks and to split cover of those vulnerable spaces behind the wingback positions. The trade-off (the short blanket again) was that we left the central zone very vulnerable, with Lucas not only having to occupy his own midfielder, but having to effectively cover Weimann and Benteke when the ball was lost on transition. The only effective way to manage these spaces, as mentioned in the Back Three thread, is to match their formation:



This effectively eliminates ALL the vulnerable spaces, tactically. On the other hand, it turns the game, much like against the 4-3-3, into a game of individual match-ups; the outcome then rests more or less in open play on who can get the better of their match-ups – if our individual forwards are better than their individual defenders, then we should create chances. If their wingbacks are better than ours, we are at risk of overloads. If their central midfielders are individually weaker than ours, then we should dominate that area of the field. This is how the field and its space and time are manipulated through system and formation changes to take advantage of the other team. It is why tactically flexible coaches like Benitez succeed where others don’t. It is also why great harnessers of individual talent like Ferguson and Mourinho need to have access to good individual players. It is also why in one sense Rodgers will have success – our game will be built on extreme mobility of both players and the ball. In another aspect, though, if we get stuck playing the same system when there are clear vulnerabilities against a certain small number of teams, we may not get results we deserve on talent and skill alone.

Mobility from Position –

So now that we can see a simple view of the vulnerable spaces within certain formations, we can also see how mobility becomes more important. The overwhelming majority of defences these days play a ball-oriented zonal defence. This is a defence which takes its shape according to the position of the ball on the field, with covering defenders aligning themselves according to the position of the next man in their line. However, that is not to say that marking does not take place – it certainly does. Marking will take effect both when the ball is close to a player’s zone and when the ball is near the goal. Primarily, though, movement from position will occur between the boxes. As we can see above, there are certain sensitive areas for different formations. How a team moves within these areas will say a lot about their game intelligence, their tactical plan, and their physical mobility. The key movements to take advantages of these spaces are checking runs, of which there are two types – active checking runs, and false checking runs. An active checking run is a run where the player actively seeks to receive the ball. A false checking run may look to receive the ball, but is also intended to drag a defender out of position and create space behind them. Suarez frequently makes active checking runs into midfield to receive and turn and go at defenders. Downing’s run for THAT goal versus Sunderland is an example of a false checking run, where the intention MIGHT be to receive the ball, but the run is made with the knowledge that a defender will have to track it, and thus leave position, which creates a pocket of space for someone else. A good gauge of how smart a team is and how well they understand the game is how many of these checking runs and the subsequent penetrating runs into the space from a 3rd attacker are made. This, over most other things, is the sign of a cultured team.


Reading the Game –

If we look at formations in this manner (coverage of space, manipulation of the opposition through movement from position,  penetration into space created, understanding of the principles of play and which principle the opposition are looking to emphasise), then we can see how the Rodgers 2-3-2-3 can be altered to nullify the threat the opposition poses, not just by an actual formation change, but with simple movements of players to cover spaces in possession that could be vulnerable on transition. In order to do this, though, the team needs to be adept at reading the game, understanding what the opposition are trying to do on the ball, and what spaces they are likely to leave, if any. What I would imagine Rodgers is looking to do, is build a team that is mobile enough to change the defensive space of the other team through their timed and choreographed movements, or change the defensive space through individual skill when the shape of the other team is covering the effective spaces well. This is why the oft-made cry of “two or three transfer windows” is justified – there are only certain types of players who will understand these subtle movements, and at Liverpool Rodgers finally has a chance to pursue them to realize his vision. These players will be clever, agile, good with the ball and positionally sound. But more importantly, they will be intelligent enough to understand space and how it is being changed and shaped by both the movement of the ball around the field and the movement of players to create space for the ball. It is why we have seen some more direct patterns of play recently. It is also why the future of a Brendan Rodgers Liverpool could be, under the right circumstances, as exciting as anything we played in 1988 or 2009.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 12:50:39 pm by PhaseofPlay »
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Re: Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2013, 07:36:17 pm »
Thank you mate. Lord knows the main board barely deserves writing of this quality just now.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 09:22:08 pm by royhendo »

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Re: Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2013, 10:47:50 pm »
Ha ha too true Roy, too true. Its fascinating stuff, it really is. Takes me a while to digest, but I guess it ought to for any lay person just as everyone's job does at times...
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Re: Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2013, 10:54:42 pm »
Question:
You seem to be a fan of Rodgers intentions, as pointed out in your last paragraph mate. What is it particularly about his approach that gets you interested/enthusiastic/excited? I guess I'm saying "Why him?"
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Re: Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2013, 11:55:24 pm »
Question:
You seem to be a fan of Rodgers intentions, as pointed out in your last paragraph mate. What is it particularly about his approach that gets you interested/enthusiastic/excited? I guess I'm saying "Why him?"

It would have been the same had it been Rijkaard or Laudrup or Van Gaal or any Dutch-training-influenced coach for me. I know the methods they use quite well, and I'm a fan of them. The polar opposite of Hodgson's methods, and very player friendly. There are some things I think can be done differently, but what I like about Rodgers is that he is a pure coach - he's trying to teach players the game, set high technical standards, and will recruit to those standards. Generally, I think he's a player's coach, with player's favourite methods, and a style of play that's exclusive rather than malleable. In short, he has high standards, but he has a clear vision of how those standards can be met. For me, it's exciting to see how he'll do.
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Re: Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2013, 12:02:01 am »
I wonder, and this doesn't just apply to BR but to Rafa and other brilliant tactical coaches whether this is where 'over-thinking' may come in and why the prem in particular is resistant to this type of play. The prem doesn't really act in a mature way.

We know that the prem is more direct, we know there are far more transitions in each game, that those transitions are often rapid - not pass, pass, pass rapid but boom this means any defence has limited time to react and one of the galling truths is those rapid transitions can work and once they've worked the whole dynamic and momentum of the game changes.

I'd also suggest that game intelligence is not just about spatial awareness but about utilising the momentum of a game, knowing when to go for the jugular, knowing when to press, when to consolidate. As a team we not only fail to exploit going forward but have an inability to close out and shut down a game. Oddly the crowd can often spot the momentum in  a game better than the players on the pitch and on some occasions even inspire it. Sunday was an example of the opportunism in football, for 10 minutes United froze, for whatever reason they failed to cover the space correctly, there were gaps all over, they were panicking on the ball, we didn't capitalise. A team that can learn how to utilise that momentum will have a massive advantage.

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Re: Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2013, 12:33:02 am »
I wonder, and this doesn't just apply to BR but to Rafa and other brilliant tactical coaches whether this is where 'over-thinking' may come in and why the prem in particular is resistant to this type of play. The prem doesn't really act in a mature way.

We know that the prem is more direct, we know there are far more transitions in each game, that those transitions are often rapid - not pass, pass, pass rapid but boom this means any defence has limited time to react and one of the galling truths is those rapid transitions can work and once they've worked the whole dynamic and momentum of the game changes.

I'd also suggest that game intelligence is not just about spatial awareness but about utilising the momentum of a game, knowing when to go for the jugular, knowing when to press, when to consolidate. As a team we not only fail to exploit going forward but have an inability to close out and shut down a game. Oddly the crowd can often spot the momentum in  a game better than the players on the pitch and on some occasions even inspire it. Sunday was an example of the opportunism in football, for 10 minutes United froze, for whatever reason they failed to cover the space correctly, there were gaps all over, they were panicking on the ball, we didn't capitalise. A team that can learn how to utilise that momentum will have a massive advantage.

Absolutely. "Tempo" is probably a better way to put it, perhaps? Continental players learn to play with knowledge of the Tempo of the game, and a lot of this comes from having the technical ability to look up on the ball, and to scan the field off the ball. English Football and players tend to move and think in straight lines, so there is a lot of transition and head-down, forward moving play. This is why the crowd can see changes in momentum better than the players in British games - because they are actually looking at the game better than a lot of the players from their higher and less pressurised vantage points. This is why it's important to coach players without direction, so the first thought is to gain composed possession, not just territory. With British football also, the space behind the fullbacks is the only real space that the British game understands. If you look back at Mourinho's first two seasons at Chelsea, you'll see that he played with very conservative fullbacks who didn't overlap much, if ever, and generally stayed connected to the central defenders. This killed the space that most of their rivals liked to attack into, and once this happened, their attacks were cut off (because they had no understanding of mobility to create space, and change of tempo to achieve that). They played at the same pace, though, with the same straight line attacks, only they were playing into areas of the field that were always covered by Chelsea players. Maradona tried to do the same thing, in a less sophisticated way, with Argentina. Where they met their doom, was, of course, against a very mobile and game-intelligent German team. So you're very correct - momentum has an influence on how the game goes. I think Rodgers is or will be looking for intelligent players who will be able to play to the tempo of the game and change when needed?
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Re: Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2013, 07:35:24 am »
Found the stuff about 3-5-2 especially interesting. Is there anyway, without versatile personnel, that you can really counter it in a game if you set up in a 4-3-3?

Particularly interested to know what forced the 3-5-2 out of fashion then, particularly in the Italian game in the 90s. I’ve always assumed it was more clubs leaning toward a traditional playmaker from the mid to late 90s and using more of a 4-3-1-2 formation. I’m wondering now, looking at the diagrams, if the logic to it was that was that if the opposition wingbacks were conservative players, whether this was effectively ‘dead space’ in the match?

By leaving both the wingbacks with no winger to mark, and matching the 3 man midfield man for man, they effectively took the oppositions wingbacks out of the game. And even if they were offensive wingbacks, they were still matched up with the fullbacks on the 4-3-1-2 so there was no overload available.

Additionally, whilst both “3s” in midfield effectively cancel each other out for numbers, you’ve got space for what was usually the playmaker, and most talented player on the team – and the only way to cancel him would be to have some step out of defence to close him down, which defeats the purpose somewhat of 5 at the back because it leaves spaces, especially if you’ve got two strikers, because it’ll leave the space for the forwards to run into the channels between centreback and wingback. And if the wingback comes in to cover, surely that means there’s room for the fullback in the 4-3-1-2 to then venture forward.

Of course what’s curious is that even after the death of 3 at the back in Italy, Roma went on to win the league under Capello playing that formation, against a host of teams playing 4-3-1-2. Although it’s fair to say that Capello would often sacrifice a striker and play 3-5-1-1 with Totti just off the front man. I suppose this, coupled with the type of midfielders he used – Tomassi, Assuncano, Emerson, Zanetti – was with closing the space of the oppositions playmaker in mind. And Capello did have the luxury of having Cafu and Candela as his wingbacks, so whereas I assume most managers playing 4-3-1-2 against a 3-5-2 would have been happy to allow the opposition wingbacks have the ball in a 1-vs-1 situation down the flanks, against Roma it was foolhardy. … Perhaps that shows that in any system, despite there being another system out there that can negate it, the strength so often lies with the quality of player at a managers disposal?


Something of a tired, potentially incoherent, ramble.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 07:47:08 am by Juan Loco »
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Re: Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2013, 11:09:11 am »
In the hours ahead of the Norwich game, some thoughtful reading.

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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2013, 11:13:25 am »
Lets just put the ball in the net and we'll discuss the other options later, eh?
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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2013, 12:07:19 pm »
Great read again phase. It would also be interesting to see the swot analysis of other formations. Fir example, we find it tough against a 3-5-2 like villa, with another example being the qpr game in the second half when arry switched to 3 at the back. What are the weaknesses of the 3-5-2? Is it only down to player skill, or is there anything tactically that can be done to give you the upper hand?

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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2013, 08:23:46 pm »
I've only just seen this thread.  Excellent stuff again PoP

Just to add a brief comment about the way 3-5-2 affects us...

As with all systems, adding a player to one area of the team, means you're going to be missing a player elsewhere.  By adding a centreback, they sacrifice one of the forwards (compared to a 4-3-3).  Depending on how they use the remaining two forwards influences how we should deal with it.  If it is a case of them playing two up (rather than one off one), dropping one of the midfielders back is an option (as PoP described in the three man defence thread), but this would leave us a two v three in the midfield... unless our full backs, who are essenatially 'spare' (as they aren't matched up directly with an opponent) tuck in the create a four man midfield (or three if only one does).

An alternative is to use a lopsided back four, with one full back going and one making the third defender to leave the midfield contest even and giving us a spare man at the back.  This leaves the other full back as the free man, and if this is Johnson, he could be the key.  The danger is their wingbacks becoming attacking weapons if the three CBs are able to deal with our front three.  With Suarez and Sturridge on form, that's unlikely  :D.

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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2013, 09:18:36 pm »
I've only just seen this thread.  Excellent stuff again PoP

Just to add a brief comment about the way 3-5-2 affects us...

As with all systems, adding a player to one area of the team, means you're going to be missing a player elsewhere.  By adding a centreback, they sacrifice one of the forwards (compared to a 4-3-3).  Depending on how they use the remaining two forwards influences how we should deal with it.  If it is a case of them playing two up (rather than one off one), dropping one of the midfielders back is an option (as PoP described in the three man defence thread), but this would leave us a two v three in the midfield... unless our full backs, who are essenatially 'spare' (as they aren't matched up directly with an opponent) tuck in the create a four man midfield (or three if only one does).

An alternative is to use a lopsided back four, with one full back going and one making the third defender to leave the midfield contest even and giving us a spare man at the back.  This leaves the other full back as the free man, and if this is Johnson, he could be the key.  The danger is their wingbacks becoming attacking weapons if the three CBs are able to deal with our front three.  With Suarez and Sturridge on form, that's unlikely  :D.

Indeed. This is the Italian method, and there is in fact a Back-5 variation too, where only one wingback goes forward, the three slide across, and the weak-side wingback tucks in. This gives solidity at the back in transition but removes some width and numbers from the attack. It becomes, to coin a phrase, a balancing act. 

Will add more later. Cheers.
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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2013, 09:22:56 pm »
Great read again phase. It would also be interesting to see the swot analysis of other formations. Fir example, we find it tough against a 3-5-2 like villa, with another example being the qpr game in the second half when arry switched to 3 at the back. What are the weaknesses of the 3-5-2? Is it only down to player skill, or is there anything tactically that can be done to give you the upper hand?

The weaknesses are down to where they play the wingbacks - if both wingbacks play high, then they are somewhat vulnerable down the wings, but only with extreme width, and only if you catch them on the counter. If they play the wingbacks conservatively, then they give up space in front of them, to the sides of the midfield trio, and so there is room to possess and get your own fullbacks involved. If they have fast wingers, though you then open yourself up to fast counterattacks (if you play a tight central defence. If you split your central defenders like we do, then they'll more likely attack down the middle). We have to remember that the 3-5-2 came about to negate the 4-4-2 which was prevalent at the time (mid-80's), by adding the spare man at the back.

The best formational way to negate any benefit they would like out of a 3-5-2 is to also play a 3-5-2, especially if you are confident you can beat their players 1v1 and can dominate the match-ups.
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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2013, 10:06:33 pm »

The best formational way to negate any benefit they would like out of a 3-5-2 is to also play a 3-5-2, especially if you are confident you can beat their players 1v1 and can dominate the match-ups.

Or a 3-4-3 with one of the attacking 3 dropping back to help out the midfield.  And as you've shown, the 3-4-3 isn't far  from the 4-3-3 we currently play.

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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2013, 10:10:14 pm »
Or a 3-4-3 with one of the attacking 3 dropping back to help out the midfield.  And as you've shown, the 3-4-3 isn't far  from the 4-3-3 we currently play.

Yes that would work too. I prefer, from my own perspective, to call anything with 3 backs and 2 forwards a variation of 3-5-2, whereas for me, a 3-4-3 is with a central forward and two wingers or inside forwards (3-4-3, 3-3-1-3, 3-4-2-1). That's just a personal choice though. I agree with what you said, but just wanted to clarify what I meant (that I was making a broad description of 3-5-2). Good points Prof!
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Re: Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2013, 10:12:15 pm »
Found the stuff about 3-5-2 especially interesting. Is there anyway, without versatile personnel, that you can really counter it in a game if you set up in a 4-3-3?

Particularly interested to know what forced the 3-5-2 out of fashion then, particularly in the Italian game in the 90s. I’ve always assumed it was more clubs leaning toward a traditional playmaker from the mid to late 90s and using more of a 4-3-1-2 formation. I’m wondering now, looking at the diagrams, if the logic to it was that was that if the opposition wingbacks were conservative players, whether this was effectively ‘dead space’ in the match?

By leaving both the wingbacks with no winger to mark, and matching the 3 man midfield man for man, they effectively took the oppositions wingbacks out of the game. And even if they were offensive wingbacks, they were still matched up with the fullbacks on the 4-3-1-2 so there was no overload available.

Additionally, whilst both “3s” in midfield effectively cancel each other out for numbers, you’ve got space for what was usually the playmaker, and most talented player on the team – and the only way to cancel him would be to have some step out of defence to close him down, which defeats the purpose somewhat of 5 at the back because it leaves spaces, especially if you’ve got two strikers, because it’ll leave the space for the forwards to run into the channels between centreback and wingback. And if the wingback comes in to cover, surely that means there’s room for the fullback in the 4-3-1-2 to then venture forward.

Of course what’s curious is that even after the death of 3 at the back in Italy, Roma went on to win the league under Capello playing that formation, against a host of teams playing 4-3-1-2. Although it’s fair to say that Capello would often sacrifice a striker and play 3-5-1-1 with Totti just off the front man. I suppose this, coupled with the type of midfielders he used – Tomassi, Assuncano, Emerson, Zanetti – was with closing the space of the oppositions playmaker in mind. And Capello did have the luxury of having Cafu and Candela as his wingbacks, so whereas I assume most managers playing 4-3-1-2 against a 3-5-2 would have been happy to allow the opposition wingbacks have the ball in a 1-vs-1 situation down the flanks, against Roma it was foolhardy. … Perhaps that shows that in any system, despite there being another system out there that can negate it, the strength so often lies with the quality of player at a managers disposal?


Something of a tired, potentially incoherent, ramble.

Excellent ramble, in that case! I'll have to read it again because you make some good observations. The 4-3-1-2 and overloads points are excellent.
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Offline the_red_pill

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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2013, 10:12:24 pm »
Yes that would work too. I prefer, from my own perspective, to call anything with 3 backs and 2 forwards a variation of 3-5-2, whereas for me, a 3-4-3 is with a central forward and two wingers or inside forwards (3-4-3, 3-3-1-3, 3-4-2-1). That's just a personal choice though. I agree with what you said, but just wanted to clarify what I meant (that I was making a broad description of 3-5-2). Good points Prof!
Thanks mate. I'm enjoying your analysis. I have one question...

You mentioned in one of our conversations that our pressing is tactical. I can see there is a difference between our pressing and say Stoke, but I can't figure it out. Can you explain what this entails and some of the alternatives?

That's if you would be so kind, of course ;)
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 10:14:08 pm by the_red_pill »
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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2013, 11:39:57 pm »
Excellent.

Mobility is the one i really struggle with. Bit pissed tonight will read it properly tmrw.

PoP, once again its like you are writing these for me personally, thanks for the free education mate.

Rawk seems to be eating itself a little bit at the moment. I think all users should be constantly reminded of some of the sheer quality thats being produced from this site. This is truely something of worth. We should all be proud of this site.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2013, 12:00:33 am »
Exiled - check your email my friend.
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Offline horne

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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2013, 04:10:00 am »
if opposite ends of the pitch is where it all happens....no goals scored in the middle of the pitch....what would happen if a team virtually played a 5-0-5 ?....has anyone done it?....
I feel stupid even suggesting it but at the same time....why not?
you invite them on,risky but ballsy...lol....but you outnumber them at the back and have a keeper who can use his hands
and then its released to an attack who should also outnumber  their defence...
now thats how we played as kids....in the summer when it used to be boiling hot....cracking game to watch i tell yer
attack and defence at both ends...what would happen?
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2013, 04:31:48 am »
if opposite ends of the pitch is where it all happens....no goals scored in the middle of the pitch....what would happen if a team virtually played a 5-0-5 ?....has anyone done it?....
I feel stupid even suggesting it but at the same time....why not?
you invite them on,risky but ballsy...lol....but you outnumber them at the back and have a keeper who can use his hands
and then its released to an attack who should also outnumber  their defence...
now thats how we played as kids....in the summer when it used to be boiling hot....cracking game to watch i tell yer
attack and defence at both ends...what would happen?

Didn't Ardiles do that at Newcastle? :D
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Offline horne

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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2013, 04:37:33 am »
Didn't Ardiles do that at Newcastle? :D
keegan...lol...
its close to how the brazilians think isnt it....action in the final thirds...loosely speaking...kinda makes sense in tough climates,world cups ,tournaments without too much rest time
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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2013, 04:56:05 am »
keegan...lol...
its close to how the brazilians think isnt it....action in the final thirds...loosely speaking...kinda makes sense in tough climates,world cups ,tournaments without too much rest time

United do it, to an extent. On paper it's a 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 or 4-2-3-1, but they push their 4 attackers so far forward and flat to create the 1v1's in the back that they essentially play a 4-1-1-4. This in turn forces the other team to change their shape to match and overload United's attack, so they'll usually play a midfielder deep and close to the central defenders, I think, making an almost back 5, their outside mids covering back and helping the fullbacks, and the forwards dropped a bit to become midfielders and disrupt United's possession. As a result, they struggle to get the ball out of their half, and United just play in waves of attack. It's very aggressive, it requires good players, but it has clearly worked for the past 20 years or so. United play almost like a basketball team, because they all drop and defend when they need to, especially against teams who aren't afraid to risk taking the game to them (as we did in the last half hour against them last week).
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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2013, 06:25:47 am »
I was just reading a tactical analysis of a team playing 3-5-2 off Soccernet, and was reminded of the OP here.

It's interesting to see how the 3-5-2 coped better against the 4-2-3-1, but came apart when the opposition switched to a 4-4-2.

Makes me wonder how different things would have been if we had Sturridge available when we were playing Aston Villa.

Link: http://soccernet.espn.go.com/blog/_/name/tacticsandanalysis/id/734?cc=4716
"I've not seen it and I'm not being Arsene Wenger," Dalglish said. "If there's something untoward then I am sure the governing body will act appropriately."

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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2013, 08:42:01 am »
Enjoying this loads, thanks guys.

My question is on penetration and support. Both have mobility wrapped up into them, don't they? Is 'mobility of position' the art of penetration and support? Or do those two (in the theoretical canon) exclude the aspect of mobility that manipulates space?

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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2013, 10:59:03 am »
Cheers PoP. thats the kind of thing i can really use buddy.

Snowed off today and yesterday havent been able to drag my fat arse out onto the coaching field. So have been trying to write a little coaching manual of my own. May just bin it off and copy and paste that.

I find this so fascinating because i have been asked to explain it. Its all so simple until a parent asks you to explain exactly what your trying to do, at that point you realise how close to the limits of your own understanding you are. You kind of have to go really deep in order to come back up to the surface with something less complicated that makes sense. That On the ball close to the ball away from the ball, is pure practical coaching genius. As is the If youcant go forward one..........

Relating it to liverpool which is the relevant bit to this site, our attacking patterns of play are very very good now against the lesser side, and for me thats always been the kind of progress i was looking for, i'm not fused this year about the top six sides. we are beating the sides we should be for a change, which to me suggests we have indeed found a workable style of play. The tactician in Rodgers can get to work finding ways to make the difference in the big games, but our system is doing its job in the other ones now. I think we are all going to have to accept Stoke is a massive game for us from now on.

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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2013, 02:51:01 pm »
Enjoying this loads, thanks guys.

My question is on penetration and support. Both have mobility wrapped up into them, don't they? Is 'mobility of position' the art of penetration and support? Or do those two (in the theoretical canon) exclude the aspect of mobility that manipulates space?

It comes down to ability to dribble (which we have in abundance, to be fair), and checking runs (which we didn't have much of). If you look at yesterday's game, there were a few times that Sturridge checked into the ball in midfield, bounced it back, and turned and ran. Seems a pointless movement for the ball to end up back where it was anyway, but when you see the big picture, the intention is to move from an advanced position, bring a defender, and create that pocket of space to play into for a 3rd attacker run. There were elements of it in Suarez's goal, where Sturridge makes a little check to Lucas' pass, and dummies it. The Norwich defender had gone with him, and was sold by the dummy, creating that little pocket of space that allowed Suarez in to score. So in that sense, mobility of position is a little more support - in this case, Norwich were leaving large spaces between defence and midfield, with almost all their central mids playing as attacking mids and nobody staying in front of the back four, so Sturridge in this case simply made a checking run into this vacated space, ostensibly to support Lucas, but instead dummied to allow Suarez a clear penetrating run on to the Norwich GK.
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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2013, 05:11:12 pm »
So penetration is more about carrying the ball or delivery of a trough ball?

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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2013, 06:06:48 pm »
So penetration is more about carrying the ball or delivery of a trough ball?

Think about penetration as getting possession of the ball in the areas the opposition would ldeally cover with their defensive setup.

You have to move the opponents out of position, or find space in between them.  It can be achieved by passing the ball into a traditional number 9 who is 'posting up'.  He can then roll the defender, or lay off to a runner etc.

The way it will happen in a Rodgers team is more likely to be a dribble beating a man and pulling a second defender out of shape to cover the space, or by a player showing for the ball, causing a defender to follow the run and leaving space behind.  Sturridge's dummy yesterday allowed Suarez to pentrate.  It doesn't have to be a through ball.  It's really about moving the defenders out of position then exploiting the space.

Gerrard penetrated the defence consistently when he played as a 10 by passing into another player's feet and following the ball.  This wasn't about moving players out of position as much as it was about moving quickly (both ball and player) and finding the small spaces that naturally exist.  We will now see a more team-based approach based on combination plays.

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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2013, 07:23:23 pm »
So penetration is more about carrying the ball or delivery of a trough ball?

At its heart, it is about eliminating defenders from the play. There are several ways to do this - dribbling, forward passing, combination plays, through balls, long balls, crossing, and third-man runs with checking support runs. If you go back to something I said earlier in one of the posts, it comes down to understanding the three roles of defenders, and then penetrating on each level:

1st Defender - player AT the ball
2nd Defenders - players covering the 1st Defender near the ball
3rd Defenders - players away from the ball covering the goal area, holding the offside line, and shaping for the through ball

So there are at least three levels to penetration, and how you eliminate the three layers comes down to your philosophy of play. If you are individual talent minded, then you will focus on having technical players who can beat you with the ball. If you are possession minded, you will use passing to eliminate the support defenders through checking runs and overlaps. If you are looking to exclusively penetrate past the 3rd defenders, you are probably playing direct or a lot of crosses into the space behind. If you are a really good team, then you are capable of doing all three. This is the hardest method to develop, and it's what Rodgers is probably going for, which is why it will take time and places heavy game intelligence demands on the players, as well as technical demands. Right now, we are good at penetrating with the ball at our feet (Suarez, Gerrard, Sterling, Suso, Johnson) and we're decent if not great with penetrating the 3rd defender layer (Gerrard, Lucas, Reina) but we're not too good right now at 2nd Defender penetration - we lack combinations going forward, we don't counterattack effectively, and we play more possession passes when there is a penetrating run available. We're getting better at it though, and it seems to coincide with Gerrard getting back into his stride (and Sturridge helps with that too).
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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2013, 07:35:59 pm »
So in the coaching terminology, it's as simple as Yorky's ongoing belief that you should always take opposing players out of the game. That'd be one aspect of good coaching I guess.

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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2013, 07:43:01 pm »
So in the coaching terminology, it's as simple as Yorky's ongoing belief that you should always take opposing players out of the game. That'd be one aspect of good coaching I guess.

Yep. Generally, to simplify it, if you pass or dribble past at least one defender, you are penetrating. If you pass square or back, you are possession. It seems like a Captain Obvious thing to say, but each pass communicates something to the next player in the sequence, and each run communicates something else. When we talk of players with vision, we are really talking about players who understand what a certain pass is trying to achieve, and what a certain run is trying to achieve, and how that communicates to the player on the ball. The Dutch are big on these ideas in their TIC (Technique, Insight and Communication) philosophy.
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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2013, 07:48:41 pm »
So in the coaching terminology, it's as simple as Yorky's ongoing belief that you should always take opposing players out of the game. That'd be one aspect of good coaching I guess.
Aaaah, the old - Carlos the Jackal, Billiy Bremner and Tommy Smith, ideal - "take the opposition out"

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Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2013, 08:07:47 pm »
Yep. Generally, to simplify it, if you pass or dribble past at least one defender, you are penetrating. If you pass square or back, you are possession. It seems like a Captain Obvious thing to say, but each pass communicates something to the next player in the sequence, and each run communicates something else. When we talk of players with vision, we are really talking about players who understand what a certain pass is trying to achieve, and what a certain run is trying to achieve, and how that communicates to the player on the ball. The Dutch are big on these ideas in their TIC (Technique, Insight and Communication) philosophy.

so in a possesion based philosophy the idea is to move the ball quckly and effeciently, pulling defenders out of position in order to find a team mate with a clear route to goal either through overloads or runs? am i even half way right?

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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2013, 08:10:18 pm »
so in a possesion based philosophy the idea is to move the ball quckly and effeciently, pulling defenders out of position in order to find a team mate with a clear route to goal either through overloads or runs? am i even half way right?

More than halfway right :D

Under Rodgers, though we use possession for two reasons - rest on the ball after a period of pressure, and then to move defenders out of position to create overloads and penetrating runs
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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2013, 08:19:12 pm »
More than halfway right :D

Under Rodgers, though we use possession for two reasons - rest on the ball after a period of pressure, and then to move defenders out of position to create overloads and penetrating runs

good man, its definitely going in.

Sturridge plus Suarez is a major hand full for anyone. the shear amount of cover - near the ball- needed when suarez has it at his feet pulls the old blanket from somewhere, it must do. Sturridge is also very good at the wriggle too you know, he's not that disimiler to Suarez in a lot of ways. But with Suarez doing his thing and sucking 3-4 players into him all sturridge needs to do is keep between the sticks, its going to be a tap in bonanza for the boy.

Heres hoping anyway.

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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2013, 08:21:05 pm »
Very good piece this, thanks for the effort mate.

I must say I have been impressed with BR's ability to change our shape during games. For a long time, we have been poor against sides who 'park the bus' and I feel like we are progressing in that respect.
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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2013, 10:12:27 pm »
Superb OP PoP, quality contributions from Prof and Vulmea.  It would be really interesting hearing that brazillian poster who went on a great lengths to explain the differences between 442 and their national formation, and get his thoughts on this from a different continent of football.  It was his first post too.

Now to a question, where an opposition operates a single or double DM, this effects the dynamic and the penetration.  A DM would be more technically and tactically proficient (Lucas, for example) meaning targeting the defences weakness to sure up vulnerability.  With this headache for the attacker, which I imagine to affect penetrations 2 and 3, more reliance on penetrating past 1 to pull defenders and create gaps the DM has to fill leaving space for the 20 yarder, for example?

Have I got that too wrong?
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Re: Systems - Mobility of Position and the Disruption of Formations
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2013, 11:59:33 pm »
Superb OP PoP, quality contributions from Prof and Vulmea.  It would be really interesting hearing that brazillian poster who went on a great lengths to explain the differences between 442 and their national formation, and get his thoughts on this from a different continent of football.  It was his first post too.

Now to a question, where an opposition operates a single or double DM, this effects the dynamic and the penetration.  A DM would be more technically and tactically proficient (Lucas, for example) meaning targeting the defences weakness to sure up vulnerability.  With this headache for the attacker, which I imagine to affect penetrations 2 and 3, more reliance on penetrating past 1 to pull defenders and create gaps the DM has to fill leaving space for the 20 yarder, for example?

Have I got that too wrong?

No, that makes sense. What you might try to do if they have two DM's is put good 1v1 players on their fullbacks, or speed on the wings to take advantage of transitions. Or overload their wings with your AM and wingers combining. Alternatively, if they push high, just play over the top of them, and they won't need DM's :D
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