Author Topic: Stupid Football  (Read 36288 times)

Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #80 on: March 23, 2012, 04:40:02 pm »
Yorky, mate the last little dig a Spearing is absolutely the polar opposite to the truth of the matter. For me Jay knows exactly what he is passing for. He moves the  ball quickly and accurately, and its his tempo that actually starts to grind an opposition down.

Intelligent possesion for the sake of it isnt a goal initself, but when a patient passing phase is aloud to continue uninterrupted it actually creates options all by itself. Its the killer ball or the forcing it thats the worry. It does need to come but, its more effective perhaps in a 4th or 5th phase of play. Patience, when teams come to sit or park the bus, is even more important as its likely to need sustained probing to pull them about enough to get in behind them.

The two centre backs have adjusted really well to playing as a split pair and are both comfortable enough and intelligent enough on the ball to use that technique well. The full backs are a slight worry for me as they both hold the ball for too long. Still cant work out if thats because the movement in front of them isnt good enough or because of a lacking in them.

I guess what i'm trying to say is that there is a lot of intelligent play in our team, and some of the players coming in for stick Downing, Spearing and Hendo are actually some of the more intelligent users and movers. Its a blured picture at the moment but its becoming clearer, after the summer it needs to come into focus sharply, but i'm sure it will.

Its the Spearing bit though mate that i cant get me head round, hes doing exactly what he should be doing, he isnt trying the hollywood but he is keeping it moving. The passages of play where we do keep possesion and exert pressure all move through Spearing lately. But if you dont see that then i guess you dont.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #81 on: March 23, 2012, 05:33:11 pm »
I agree. It's not all bad news. And I certainly don't think Spearing is a poor player mate. A consistent run in the team has seen him improving as well.

I mentioned him at the end not because I think he's especially to blame for 'stupid football' but because he occupies, for me, the key position on the pitch. His ball control, I think, is faulty. It's not dreadful like Kuyt's but it doesn't produce speed of action. Too often when the ball is played to him from the right flank he receives it square on then turns to the defence before moving in an arc to face the attack. In other words he executes a 180 degree turn on the ball rather than a 90 degree turn. This happens automatically, even when there is no pressure on him. 

That's time wasted.

His first touch also leaves the ball too close to his body - which means his head has to go down at a really crucial point in order to dig the ball out with his second touch. The pass comes with the third.

That's time wasted too.

But I was talking about his comprehension (as I was talking about the comprehension of the team as a whole). That's to say the 'why' not the 'how'. And I'm not convinced Spearing is altogether on top of the 'why'.

There was a passage of play versus Everton where Spearing hit three first time balls on the run. In one sense it looked slick. It was certainly quick (which we like). But it was noticeable that each pass was slightly more stupid than the one that went before. In the end his third pass drove Henderson (I think) into a cul de sac. That's criminal really. There were so many options and he chose the obvious one. A slightly pummelled Everton defence breathed a sigh of relief.  I don't know, it just seemed to me that Spearing had failed his comprehension test. He didn't know why he was passing.
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Offline Not A Scouser

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #82 on: March 23, 2012, 05:35:41 pm »
My favourite thing to watch in football is a clever player.  I think there is a lack of cleverness through the team, you can really see the difference when Gerrard is out of the team with a lack of imaginative link-up play, an aimlessness.

I think the recent problems defensively have not been a lack of intelligence, but a lack of concentration.  Carragher switching off against Arsenal, Carroll and Henderson losing players at corners, Skrtel losing his man on a cross, Enrique simply missing the ball at the end of the QPR game.  All of these have happened in relatively low pressure situations, when we were dominating the game and feeling confident that we would win.  It's almost as if without pressure the team slacks off and doesn't concentrate as well defensively).  If you look at the season as a whole you can see that we can beat any team in England but struggle against "poorer" teams.  I think we all know in which game Liverpool would give a better performance between Man Utd and Fulham.

Strangely it seems to work the other way around at the other end of the pitch, with the pressure to score goals stopping them from being scored.

I think a huge factor in increasing the intelligence in a team is how much fun they have.  Enjoyment in an activity produces creativity, it increases the speed of thought, it frees you from worry.  There have been too many games this year where it has looked like the team wasn't really enjoying playing a game.

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #83 on: March 23, 2012, 05:36:55 pm »
...Anyway, beyond that I think we're mostly on the same page. A clear head's a good thing in my book, and some players are benefiting from people like Peters helping them achieve one.

I’m not with this. I think there are differences and they are fairly fundamental.

Setting aside the similarities or otherwise (definitely otherwise) between us and other sports - and the military, the notion that football stupidity is a significant contributor to poor play is weak.

The average premier league footballer today is extraordinarily fearful. The exceptions can exhibit real genius. Balotelli is the most fearless thing I’ve seen on two legs. He really does not give-a-shit (whether he is a loose cannon or not is another matter).

***

I don’t know what Kenny said about intelligent players but if you look at Rafa’s record of player churn, you would have to conclude he did not ever find the players to fit his bill. He tried, they tried but ultimately 'both' sides concluded that the other was not for them. How many times did we hear that the ‘players didn’t know what they were supposed to do’? - heaven forbid they had to change horse mid-match. Perhaps a memo from the dug out would have been sent.

Look, I don’t say players aren’t necessarily and intrinsically ‘intellectually-challenged’ but the game for them has to be a simple game. Nothing complicated works on the football pitch (or for that matter in war, or life...). For what it’s worth, Rafa was hugely complicated.

Shanks and Bob and the boys were at the other end of complicated - “stick it in the net son, and we’ll talk about tactics later”. That is not to say that there were no ‘tactics’. That’s not to say that there was no ‘process’. Shanks had the idea for a structure for a team and a way of playing and an attitude and a direction and he went about filling set positions with players with (often exceptionally) right stuff for the role. You’re playing left back today son (just like the last 12 weeks) - no further instruction required. But by the way, the guy you’re playing against just told me he’s scared of you and - who wants to take a walk around a colossus?

That is to say that Shanks and his like not only did the leading and the 'shining' but also they did the ‘intellectual’ work (tell him if you dare) and the players did what came naturally. Go out and play - see if you can get involved - more or less Fairclough’s only instruction going on v St Etienne. The rest they say is...

Listening to Fairclough, he says ‘it was really simple for me. I was that kind of player. Just a bit different. Thrown on to shake things up a bit’. If only he knew that ‘just get on there and do what you do’ was the picture for everyone.

Shanks changed the model in Shanks' time and the model progressively changed for the whole time. But it happened with the manager in the depths of the boot room. All the thinking was done down (up?) there. The players they bought had an innate capability to perform the roles identified. They were to that extent ‘football intelligent’, some were so capable they were genius. And it would not be narrow or academic to say that because the manager’s worked it all out for you, there was no room for stupidity on the pitch. That together with the player's innate 'brilliance' is the whole picture.

So maybe you can’t make a Carroll into an Einstein but you can put a Carroll into a Carroll role and he can be 'brilliant', genius even. But if you haven’t got a Carroll role you either made a mistake in buying him or misunderstood who he was.

***

I think someone was saying that Rafa said we were at such a (buying) disadvantage that we couldn’t afford mistakes on the pitch. How wrong he would have been.

Today’s game is so intensely scrutinised from 16 angles at every half frame per second that the difference between ‘intelligent play’ and ‘stupid play’ is minute and the verdict always in hindsight. What a stupid bastard that great hulking bastard Coates was to attempt that shot! oh.... and every player should have stood two yards to the right; should have left that; should be hitting that; should be in that ‘zone of uncertainty’; should be just out of it. Some ‘experts’ are so keen, you dare not make a mistake. Nobody did anything without making mistakes, backing yourself (ok I did that...

Your ‘average’ player today is crapping himself before he crosses the white line. He has an innate ability to do what is required, (let’s all assume that the manager and the chief scout (backed by the owners) did their jobs and he wasn’t put there because he couldn’t) but his ‘stupid play’ is not actually that. It is fearful play.

Your non-average player. Your ‘genius player’ - has no regard for mistakes. His ultimate faith in himself brings him through, let’s him take the chance, every single time. Even let’s him ignore the manager, some time.

***

I say again, that genius has little to do with a clear and calculating head. It has everything to do with unthinking (even un-intelligent) instinct. Borne out of practice, banging the ball for hours on end, free-kicks in the garden, playing with players, knowing how they work, knowing how you work. Knowing what works and what doesn’t work without a milliseconds’ thought. Peters can’t teach that.

.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 06:31:40 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline Aristotle

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #84 on: March 23, 2012, 05:43:05 pm »
Yorky, mate the last little dig a Spearing is absolutely the polar opposite to the truth of the matter. For me Jay knows exactly what he is passing for. He moves the  ball quickly and accurately, and its his tempo that actually starts to grind an opposition down.

I think what Yorky is referencing is not Jay's first touch passing on the ball, but rather his orchestrator impersination off the ball. When he is open for a pass he has a tendancy for stopping, asking for the ball and in a bizarre fashion point to every position on the pitch he could've been passed to from instead of moving about, either being available elsewhere or dragging away an opposition player.

Compare that to Henderson's movement in Gerrard's 2nd against Everton. He ran completely against play, knowing full well that he would end behind the touchline (as he did) after releasing Suarez. But that movement also coincided with dragging Jagielka away, leaving behind him space for Gerrard to exploit. Same with Suarez's goal in the FA cup when Carroll headed that ball square onto his forehead. He had already done his part in releasing Enrique inside the box, but instead of waiting around to see what happened he sprinted with every last ounce of energy he had in him after 85 minutes on the pitch to be inside the 6 yard box on that 1% chance the ball might drop there, and there he was to score a wide open goal.

It's also why Carroll was so effective with Newcastle. Nolan did the "thinking" for him inside the box meaning he had time and space to do what he wanted or that Barton could hit him everytime where he was standing at the far post. And why Downing tries a volley when he hasn't hit one on target since the late 90's. Why Adam tries a 40 yard pass even when the team mate who was free 10 seconds ago is now covered by 3 defenders.

As Yorky called it, it's not having the technique it's knowing when to use it. Zlatan Ibrahimovic does this exceptionally. He is lazy, bordering on uninterested but his technique and vision is superb to an extent that he can, as he did a few weeks ago (the opposition eludes me) where he had the entire defense fooled with his bodyshape and movement when the pass came that he literally walked over the ball and it caught them all of guard. He didn't even need movement he is so good that he can fool defenders out of position by faking it.
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Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #85 on: March 23, 2012, 06:02:37 pm »
...but I think our stupidity is technical still, not attitudinal. It’s a deficit of knowledge (ie football knowledge) rather than a mental block or a psychological disorder. I'm always a bit suspicious of those who think old Liverpool had ice in their veins too. I remember reading one of the 1980s players - Hansen I think - describing how some of the senior pros always had their pre-match puke before running out and facing the Kop. This wasn't bulimia I don't think. It wasn't even the old booze culture. It was tension of an extraordinary kind. Those blokes were nervous. ...

I can't argue with anything you say that happens but I can disagree with you as to how it comes about. For me a football player does not intellectualise the task. They do it because they can, or it doesn't get done.

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« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 06:19:38 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline Not A Scouser

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #86 on: March 23, 2012, 06:22:25 pm »
Football is intuitive.  You don't have the time to plan what you are going to do, you have to just feel what is the right thing to do.  This doesn't mean that the instantaneous decisions cannot be based on intellectual information, vast amounts of complex information.  The most complicated problems in the world are usually solved with "a-ha!" moments, when the unconscious solves the problem and it just appears in a flash.  We all can see what happens when a player is trying to do the right thing by thinking about what the right thing is.  Their reactions are slow, they don't make decisions quickly enough, they beat themselves up over bad decisions, and their confidence goes until they can't even make decisions.  This is the whole bit about changing the bits of the brain.

The reason why coaches spend so much time doing drills is to get movement and skills to be habitual, so that things happen without any thought.  All the scouting reports and game film and team talks are not so that everyone can consciously decide where to run and pass but to provide the unconscious, intuitive mind with the largest amount of useful information with which to make instantaneous decisions.  Getting the information into the brain in a way that it can be unconsciously used is why it takes players time to "bed in", why older players make better decisions than younger players etc..

When a manager tells his players to "go out there and just play football" he's doing that based on hours and hours on the training pitch where he has made sure that player understands what the manager means by "play football."  He's telling him not to think so much that he can't play football.  There's a reason why the best managers spend so much time telling their players they are great, it's to give them confidence in their ability to "play football."  They want their players to play intelligently without thinking, using the bit of the brain that is best at playing football.  You can't play good football and worry about whether you are playing good football at the same time.  You also can't have fun playing a game and worry at the same time.

Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #87 on: March 23, 2012, 06:45:03 pm »
All fair comments lads. Yorky, i really see Spearing as intelligent enough to keep our midfield ticking. The pointing if nothing else surely shows a basic knowledge of what he wants to do.

Peter................ The days of just letting good players go and play are over. Just look at the amount of teams with limited (relatively speaking obviously) playing staff that come to Anfield and follow a simple tactical, often very narrow plan, and leave with something if not everything.

I agree totally with you regards to the simplicity of any instruction that needs to be given, but surely the greater intellectual ability of the player enables a greater depth of tactical instruction, and ultimately that flexibility in game to change approach. As much as everybody loathes Jose Mourihno he is the current tactical master, able to break down complicated tactical instructions in to very simple and understandable commands. And all this bollucks about him having to buy big for it to work, maybe to work quickly, but he would show amazing results at a league one side also, surely.

Brendan Rodgers is another one. Your not telling me that anybody expected the quality and accumin on display there from that set of players. They are all limited in ability as far as i can see. Now has he just looked for different attribute to work within his blue print, or has he tactically got his message over efectively however complecated that may have been? Genuine question i'd like your opinion on Peter please.




Offline Sangria

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #88 on: March 23, 2012, 06:51:35 pm »
I agree. It's not all bad news. And I certainly don't think Spearing is a poor player mate. A consistent run in the team has seen him improving as well.

I mentioned him at the end not because I think he's especially to blame for 'stupid football' but because he occupies, for me, the key position on the pitch. His ball control, I think, is faulty. It's not dreadful like Kuyt's but it doesn't produce speed of action. Too often when the ball is played to him from the right flank he receives it square on then turns to the defence before moving in an arc to face the attack. In other words he executes a 180 degree turn on the ball rather than a 90 degree turn. This happens automatically, even when there is no pressure on him. 

That's time wasted.

His first touch also leaves the ball too close to his body - which means his head has to go down at a really crucial point in order to dig the ball out with his second touch. The pass comes with the third.

That's time wasted too.

But I was talking about his comprehension (as I was talking about the comprehension of the team as a whole). That's to say the 'why' not the 'how'. And I'm not convinced Spearing is altogether on top of the 'why'.

There was a passage of play versus Everton where Spearing hit three first time balls on the run. In one sense it looked slick. It was certainly quick (which we like). But it was noticeable that each pass was slightly more stupid than the one that went before. In the end his third pass drove Henderson (I think) into a cul de sac. That's criminal really. There were so many options and he chose the obvious one. A slightly pummelled Everton defence breathed a sigh of relief.  I don't know, it just seemed to me that Spearing had failed his comprehension test. He didn't know why he was passing.

I presumed you enjoyed Suarez's goal against Arsenal earlier this season. Lucas advances with the ball, the Arsenal defence backpeddling. Rather than go for the obvious through ball to Suarez, he goes for the one to Meireles on the right. This drags the Arsenal defence and attention to that side, leaving Suarez free in the middle where Meireles finds him.
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Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #89 on: March 23, 2012, 06:54:36 pm »
Football is intuitive.  You don't have the time to plan what you are going to do, you have to just feel what is the right thing to do.  This doesn't mean that the instantaneous decisions cannot be based on intellectual information, vast amounts of complex information.  The most complicated problems in the world are usually solved with "a-ha!" moments, when the unconscious solves the problem and it just appears in a flash.  We all can see what happens when a player is trying to do the right thing by thinking about what the right thing is.  Their reactions are slow, they don't make decisions quickly enough, they beat themselves up over bad decisions, and their confidence goes until they can't even make decisions.  This is the whole bit about changing the bits of the brain.

The reason why coaches spend so much time doing drills is to get movement and skills to be habitual, so that things happen without any thought.  All the scouting reports and game film and team talks are not so that everyone can consciously decide where to run and pass but to provide the unconscious, intuitive mind with the largest amount of useful information with which to make instantaneous decisions.  Getting the information into the brain in a way that it can be unconsciously used is why it takes players time to "bed in", why older players make better decisions than younger players etc..

When a manager tells his players to "go out there and just play football" he's doing that based on hours and hours on the training pitch where he has made sure that player understands what the manager means by "play football."  He's telling him not to think so much that he can't play football.  There's a reason why the best managers spend so much time telling their players they are great, it's to give them confidence in their ability to "play football."  They want their players to play intelligently without thinking, using the bit of the brain that is best at playing football.  You can't play good football and worry about whether you are playing good football at the same time.  You also can't have fun playing a game and worry at the same time.

Thats a very good train of thought thanks. And of course you are entirely right! Most of that conditioning has to be done at an early age to really bare the fruits though, thats why Barca are light years ahead in devoloping youngsters and wghy one woulfd hope that we eventually start to see more and more of the lads that we have at the academy coming through. At that stage the instructions would have to be minimal as they would all know exactly what when and how as well as why to do.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #90 on: March 23, 2012, 07:02:49 pm »
Football is intuitive.  You don't have the time to plan what you are going to do, you have to just feel what is the right thing to do.  This doesn't mean that the instantaneous decisions cannot be based on intellectual information, vast amounts of complex information.  The most complicated problems in the world are usually solved with "a-ha!" moments, when the unconscious solves the problem and it just appears in a flash.  We all can see what happens when a player is trying to do the right thing by thinking about what the right thing is.  Their reactions are slow, they don't make decisions quickly enough, they beat themselves up over bad decisions, and their confidence goes until they can't even make decisions.  This is the whole bit about changing the bits of the brain.

The reason why coaches spend so much time doing drills is to get movement and skills to be habitual, so that things happen without any thought.  All the scouting reports and game film and team talks are not so that everyone can consciously decide where to run and pass but to provide the unconscious, intuitive mind with the largest amount of useful information with which to make instantaneous decisions.  Getting the information into the brain in a way that it can be unconsciously used is why it takes players time to "bed in", why older players make better decisions than younger players etc..

When a manager tells his players to "go out there and just play football" he's doing that based on hours and hours on the training pitch where he has made sure that player understands what the manager means by "play football."  He's telling him not to think so much that he can't play football.  There's a reason why the best managers spend so much time telling their players they are great, it's to give them confidence in their ability to "play football."  They want their players to play intelligently without thinking, using the bit of the brain that is best at playing football.  You can't play good football and worry about whether you are playing good football at the same time.  You also can't have fun playing a game and worry at the same time.

You do realise that there's more than one way to get things done? One of the most intensively coached sides out there, instructed to the point of having half a dozen different plans for pressing, is regarded as one of the great European sides, certainly of the 2000s, and earned its coach a reputation as a tactical and coaching genius. Admittedly, that coach only managed to win the UEFA cup with that team, but hey, not everyone can win the CL.
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Offline Not A Scouser

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #91 on: March 23, 2012, 07:03:21 pm »
Thats a very good train of thought thanks. And of course you are entirely right! Most of that conditioning has to be done at an early age to really bare the fruits though, thats why Barca are light years ahead in devoloping youngsters and wghy one woulfd hope that we eventually start to see more and more of the lads that we have at the academy coming through. At that stage the instructions would have to be minimal as they would all know exactly what when and how as well as why to do.

One of the things with Barca is that they have the same system throughout the team, a way of playing.  This means that the players have the maximum amount of time to get an intuitive understanding of what is wanted from them and where everyone else on the pitch will be.  Guardiola may change formations all the time, but the way they play is the same, basically classic pass-and-move but at a ridiculously fast pace.  There's the classic "but could they do it on a Tuesday in Stoke" but I really wonder whether the Barcelona players would be as good playing for Stoke.  Messi is without a doubt the best player in the world at Barcelona, but simply not as good with Argentina, because there isn't that intuitive understanding of a method of play.  I am delighted by the knowledge that the Liverpool academy is employing the same formation and approach throughout the ranks in the same style as Barca.  My only worry is whether this system is the same as the one Kenny uses for the first team.

Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #92 on: March 23, 2012, 07:18:01 pm »
One of the things with Barca is that they have the same system throughout the team, a way of playing.  This means that the players have the maximum amount of time to get an intuitive understanding of what is wanted from them and where everyone else on the pitch will be.  Guardiola may change formations all the time, but the way they play is the same, basically classic pass-and-move but at a ridiculously fast pace.  There's the classic "but could they do it on a Tuesday in Stoke" but I really wonder whether the Barcelona players would be as good playing for Stoke.  Messi is without a doubt the best player in the world at Barcelona, but simply not as good with Argentina, because there isn't that intuitive understanding of a method of play.  I am delighted by the knowledge that the Liverpool academy is employing the same formation and approach throughout the ranks in the same style as Barca.  My only worry is whether this system is the same as the one Kenny uses for the first team.

abso-fucking-lutely. Couldnt agree more. Our reserves are actually playing to a certain extent to the first teams tune. Seguro and Borell would rather a fluid 433 but they are persisting with Ngoo up top when it doesnt look rigth to me. They are all playing 4231, and there is a genuine debate at the moment as to whether Kenny is or not.

That point about Messi is bang on by the way. In any other set up he would be half the player. Stand out good like, but nowhere near as influential. The ease that the two newbies Tella and Cuenca??? have slotted in is fucking amazing, and its not just their quality is it, its the system and the familiarity with it thats just as important.

Just going back to our systems in the reserves and youth, thats what actually worries me, they are too direct for me, at reserve level anyway, havent seen much of Marshes lot. Not enough Ticca Tacca for me. I know we nee our own distinctive DNA but surely Barca's way is just the Liverpool way if we hadn't flirted with Souness. Like you say mate its pass and move on steroids.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 07:19:51 pm by exiledinyorkshire »

Offline Not A Scouser

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #93 on: March 23, 2012, 07:25:08 pm »
You do realise that there's more than one way to get things done? One of the most intensively coached sides out there, instructed to the point of having half a dozen different plans for pressing, is regarded as one of the great European sides, certainly of the 2000s, and earned its coach a reputation as a tactical and coaching genius. Admittedly, that coach only managed to win the UEFA cup with that team, but hey, not everyone can win the CL.

I do realize that, but those six different ways of pressing still required the players to make instant, smart decisions.  They didn't run to point x and stick out their right leg.  Their job was to press a player within a coordinated system.  The training drills made those decisions intuitive, habitual, but there are still decisions to be made by the players.  If you have a team of dumb players, draw up a pressing system that has never been practiced on a chalkboard before the game, and tell them to go play that system in the game it will be awful, regardless of how good the system is or is not.

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #94 on: March 23, 2012, 07:28:45 pm »
Our most intelligent team:

                      Pepe

      Johnson Skrtel Agger Aurelio

Kuyt Lucas Aquilani (till this weekend) Maxi

             Suarez  Bellamy
I know you struggle with reading comprehension Carlitos, but do try to pay attention

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #95 on: March 23, 2012, 07:42:33 pm »
All fair comments lads. Yorky, i really see Spearing as intelligent enough to keep our midfield ticking. The pointing if nothing else surely shows a basic knowledge of what he wants to do.

Peter................ The days of just letting good players go and play are over. Just look at the amount of teams with limited (relatively speaking obviously) playing staff that come to Anfield and follow a simple tactical, often very narrow plan, and leave with something if not everything.

I agree totally with you regards to the simplicity of any instruction that needs to be given, but surely the greater intellectual ability of the player enables a greater depth of tactical instruction, and ultimately that flexibility in game to change approach. As much as everybody loathes Jose Mourihno he is the current tactical master, able to break down complicated tactical instructions in to very simple and understandable commands. And all this bollucks about him having to buy big for it to work, maybe to work quickly, but he would show amazing results at a league one side also, surely.

Brendan Rodgers is another one. Your not telling me that anybody expected the quality and accumin on display there from that set of players. They are all limited in ability as far as i can see. Now has he just looked for different attribute to work within his blue print, or has he tactically got his message over efectively however complecated that may have been? Genuine question i'd like your opinion on Peter please.

Those days aren’t over. We struggle with the angst of it all here in the UK but it seems to me that’s exactly how Barcelona play. Nothing complicated, pass and move, play your position, do what you do best - the Liverpool Way. Not working? Parked the bus? Keep passing till something comes up.

And no, a greater depth of tactical instruction just confuses the shit out of people. What complicated tactical instructions given by Mourinho? If he gives any such commands and they are so simply put ,maybe it’s because they are simple!

Sorry, I don’t know Brendan Rodgers. I haven’t made a study. Stuff occurs to me and I write it down. Call it genius...

.

Offline Not A Scouser

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #96 on: March 23, 2012, 07:53:33 pm »
Those days aren’t over. We struggle with the angst of it all here in the UK but it seems to me that’s exactly how Barcelona play. Nothing complicated, pass and move, play your position, do what you do best - the Liverpool Way. Not working? Parked the bus? Keep passing till something comes up.

And no, a greater depth of tactical instruction just confuses the shit out of people. What complicated tactical instructions given by Mourinho? If he gives any such commands and they are so simply put ,maybe it’s because they are simple!

Sorry, I don’t know Brendan Rodgers. I haven’t made a study. Stuff occurs to me and I write it down. Call it genius...

.


http://www.google.com/cse?cx=partner-pub-0788950471766041%3A34qm0y-un2l&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=mourinho&sa=Search&siteurl=www.zonalmarking.net%2F&ref=#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=mourinho&gsc.page=1

http://www.google.com/cse?cx=partner-pub-0788950471766041%3A34qm0y-un2l&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=mourinho&sa=Search&siteurl=www.zonalmarking.net%2F&ref=#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=guardiola

http://www.google.com/cse?cx=partner-pub-0788950471766041%3A34qm0y-un2l&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=mourinho&sa=Search&siteurl=www.zonalmarking.net%2F&ref=#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=brendan%20rodgers

If you care.

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #97 on: March 23, 2012, 08:01:22 pm »

If you care.

I care less about football than I do about Liverpool Football Club. I couldn't give a stuff about Brendan Rodgers nor, unless he does something that I find interesting, am I likely to find out. As John Bishop said (more or less), I'm old enough to have decided what it is I like. Life comes to you, there's no point chasing it.

What I do know is managers decide tactics not players, intelligent or 'stupid'.

« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 08:04:51 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline AJ4Seven

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #98 on: March 23, 2012, 08:03:33 pm »
If you have a team of dumb players, draw up a pressing system that has never been practiced on a chalkboard before the game, and tell them to go play that system in the game it will be awful, regardless of how good the system is or is not.

Train those dumb players for long enough & you can make them an effective unit.

Quote
And no, a greater depth of tactical instruction just confuses the shit out of people. What complicated tactical instructions given by Mourinho? If he gives any such commands and they are so simply put ,maybe it’s because they are simple!

I would have thought the great Milan teams of the 80/90's were given lots of tactical instructions, it didn't seem to bother them too much (also the case of the misfiring Torres would disagree with your viewpoint).

Offline Sangria

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #99 on: March 23, 2012, 08:03:47 pm »
Those days aren’t over. We struggle with the angst of it all here in the UK but it seems to me that’s exactly how Barcelona play. Nothing complicated, pass and move, play your position, do what you do best - the Liverpool Way. Not working? Parked the bus? Keep passing till something comes up.

And no, a greater depth of tactical instruction just confuses the shit out of people. What complicated tactical instructions given by Mourinho? If he gives any such commands and they are so simply put ,maybe it’s because they are simple!

Sorry, I don’t know Brendan Rodgers. I haven’t made a study. Stuff occurs to me and I write it down. Call it genius...

.


One of the great European sides of the 2000s, described by its opponents as the hardest they'd played against, was also one of the most tactical and instructed in detail.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

royhendo

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #100 on: March 23, 2012, 08:10:29 pm »
Look, I don’t say players aren’t necessarily and intrinsically ‘intellectually-challenged’ but the game for them has to be a simple game. Nothing complicated works on the football pitch (or for that matter in war, or life...). 

I don't see where anything I've said personally contradicts your view that the game should be intuitive Peter. We're shadow boxing here, because you're seeing the words 'Stupid Football' and thinking I mean I want Andy Carroll to go on University Challenge. 

It's about clear heads and not making blind howlers when they have choices to make on the park, not rocket science. 

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #101 on: March 23, 2012, 08:19:29 pm »
I don't see where anything I've said personally contradicts your view that the game should be intuitive Peter. We're shadow boxing here, because you're seeing the words 'Stupid Football' and thinking I mean I want Andy Carroll to go on University Challenge.

It's about clear heads and not making blind howlers when they have choices to make on the park, not rocket science.

No, you never did.

And I've never confused  'stupid football' with being mentally lacking.

But you did say it was rather more than being simply clear-headed. You did say it was about making the right and 'intelligent' choices. My point is that is simple and instinctive and all the hard 'brain-work' is done by the manager.

Does anyone here know that Mourinho or Guardiola or Rodgers talks to their players in the terms represented in the links above (yes, I had a quick look). I very much doubt it. I certainly have never heard it. Has anyone?

There is no need to do more than engage genius where it wants to be engaged. Over-coaching is as dangerous and leads to as much confusion as Genius is born and cannot be made. I don't see why this 'extreme' view should be so upsetting.

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« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 08:25:21 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline Not A Scouser

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #102 on: March 23, 2012, 08:24:10 pm »
I care less about football than I do about Liverpool Football Club. I couldn't give a stuff about Brendan Rodgers nor, unless he does something that I find interesting, am I likely to find out. As John Bishop said (more or less), I'm old enough to have decided what it is I like. Life comes to you, there's no point chasing it.

What I do know is managers decide tactics not players, intelligent or 'stupid'.

It was just in response to your "Barcelona...nothing complicated" and "Mourinho..what tactical instructions" comments.  Basically Guardiola and Mourinho are perhaps the most innovative and complex tactical managers in the game, and they also happen to be the most successful working managers in the game.  Roy Hodgson never changes his formation or tactics.  Guardiola doesn't just tell his players to go out and pass and move and play your position, there are different tactics strategies and positions from game to game and within the game.  Guardiola even pre-plans multiple formation changes during a game to confuse the opposing team.

Basically your idea of what Mourinho and Guardiola do, and how much it matters is simply wrong.  The links were to tons of evidence for that.  The reason why I said "If you care" was because you are quite free not to look at the evidence that shows your opinion is wrong.

royhendo

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #103 on: March 23, 2012, 08:26:08 pm »
Nobody's upset mate. :)

You did say it was about making the right and 'intelligent' choices. My point is that is simple and instinctive and all the hard 'brain-work' is done by the manager.

I agree - coaching and management should improve things - that's kind of exactly my point, or one of them.

Genius is born and can't be made.

Seems fair enough to me.

Anyway - all I was driving at on the scouting front is the old fashioned Shanks notion that you sign players who are that wee bit craftier upstairs. If you manage to get genius in the process then job's a good un eh?

royhendo

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #104 on: March 23, 2012, 08:27:12 pm »
OK, maybe some folk are a wee bit upset. Ah well.

It's a nice thread. Everyone be excellent to each other. Xx

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #105 on: March 23, 2012, 08:29:07 pm »
It was just in response to your "Barcelona...nothing complicated" and "Mourinho..what tactical instructions" comments.  Basically Guardiola and Mourinho are perhaps the most innovative and complex tactical managers in the game, and they also happen to be the most successful working managers in the game.  Roy Hodgson never changes his formation or tactics.  Guardiola doesn't just tell his players to go out and pass and move and play your position, there are different tactics strategies and positions from game to game and within the game.  Guardiola even pre-plans multiple formation changes during a game to confuse the opposing team.

Basically your idea of what Mourinho and Guardiola do, and how much it matters is simply wrong.  The links were to tons of evidence for that.  The reason why I said "If you care" was because you are quite free not to look at the evidence that shows your opinion is wrong.

No mate you're getting wound up for no reason. the links are not 'evidence' because they don't come from them (the managers). As I said above, have you ever heard Mourinho et al talk in those terms to their players? Is it them or is it someone else's interpretation of them?

And if they do think that way, do they feel the need to talk to their players that way? My illustration was that Shanks did all that stuff but kept the mechanics and the workings to himself and the boot room, so that the players could benefit from the system and structure he put in place without complication or fear of wrapping it round a lamp-post. Is all.

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« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 08:33:21 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline steveeastend

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #106 on: March 23, 2012, 08:31:48 pm »
I don’t know what Kenny said about intelligent players but if you look at Rafa’s record of player churn, you would have to conclude he did not ever find the players to fit his bill. He tried, they tried but ultimately 'both' sides concluded that the other was not for them. How many times did we hear that the ‘players didn’t know what they were supposed to do’? - heaven forbid they had to change horse mid-match. Perhaps a memo from the dug out would have been sent.

Look, I don’t say players aren’t necessarily and intrinsically ‘intellectually-challenged’ but the game for them has to be a simple game. Nothing complicated works on the football pitch (or for that matter in war, or life...). For what it’s worth, Rafa was hugely complicated.

I think your overall point is wrong.

In my opinion, players need to be top talented in order to make the complicated tactics of nowadays football work and look easy at todays pace and intensity.

But that´s always been the case.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 08:34:44 pm by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Red_Mist

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #107 on: March 23, 2012, 08:33:03 pm »
The reason why I said "If you care" was because you are quite free not to look at the evidence that shows your opinion is wrong.
;D  That made me laugh! Not sure if serious.

Anyhow, carry on. Interesting discussion.

Offline Not A Scouser

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #108 on: March 23, 2012, 08:34:18 pm »
I think Kenny's system requires more game intelligence than Rafa's did.  Kenny usually has that three midfielders (plus a winger) formation, and at least two of those three have license to go forward, but if they all go forward they are caught out defensively.  This means that those players have to make more tactical decisions, when to go forward and when to stay back, than Rafa's system in which Rafa relayed the strategy from the touchline.  You also see those three in Kenny's system popping up all over the place, interchanging positions etc..  Charlie Adam can be anywhere from a defensive shield to being on either wing (notice how he always covers the most yards in a game) depending on how he reads the game. 

If you have "clever" players who can read the game, target weaknesses, predict the opposition's responses etc. it makes the team much more unpredictable in attack, which is great.  If you have "stupid" players then you get players out of position defensively, or getting in each others way and being confused while attacking.  The contrast between Adam, Henderson and Enrique trying to create openings and Maxi, Gerrard and Suarez is a great example of the difference.

Offline AJ4Seven

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #109 on: March 23, 2012, 08:36:30 pm »


There is no need to do more than engage genius where it wants to be engaged. Over-coaching is as dangerous and leads to as much confusion as Genius is born and cannot be made. I don't see why this 'extreme' view should be so upsetting.


Do you have any evidence for the bolded?

Offline Not A Scouser

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #110 on: March 23, 2012, 08:38:55 pm »
No mate you're getting wound up for no reason. the links are not 'evidence' because they don't come from them (the managers). As I said above, have you ever heard Mourinho et al talk in those terms to their players? Is it them or is it someone else's interpretation of them?

And if they do think that way, do they feel the need to talk to their players that way? My illustration was that Shanks did all that stuff but kept the mechanics and the workings to himself and the boot room, so that the players could benefit from the system and structure he put in place without complication or fear of wrapping it round a lamp-post. Is all.

.


I'm not wound up.  I find it interesting that you say it isn't evidence without actually looking at it.  What they are is actually descriptions of how the players are lined up, how they move the ball, their defensive system, and the reasons for them.  Sometimes the managers are even quoted!  This actually seems like a reasonable source of evidence about whether Mourinho gives tactical instructions or Guardiola tells them to pass and move and play their positions, or whether there is something more going on.  If they do what you say, then the Real Madrid and Barcelona players make up all these changes collectively on the spot.  If so, they are indeed intuitive geniuses of the highest order.

Offline Jaron

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #111 on: March 23, 2012, 08:41:16 pm »
Marvellous original post, and some great follow-up contributions.

I've thrown my arms up in frustration at our decision-making so many times this season, I've dislocated a shoulder.

I've seen mastery described as not just knowing how to do something, but also understanding why you did it - so well, so completely, that you can teach it to others.

King Kenny had natural talent and intelligence in abundance, together they made him our greatest ever player.
Is he trying to teach his football intelligence to others?
Or does he expect his men to intuitively understand the game, like he did?

Moneyballesque statistics are fashionable now. But for me, only two stats really matter:
Number of good decisions.
Number of bad decisions.

Great players make good decisions, almost always. Average players consistently make bad decisions.
Shying away from calling mistakes and bigging up a player is self-defeating. Their problem is not just confidence, but flawed habits, which lead to bad decisions.

"Thanks, you just cost us the World Cup" sounds harsh, but it needs to be said. Mistakes need to be called, and understood. Players need to understand why they're making mistakes before they can hope to correct them.

Zen temple. Battlefield. Football field. The path to mastery is the same.
"We go again."

Offline Floydy

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #112 on: March 23, 2012, 08:42:19 pm »
Spot on Roy,
Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance.  Albert Einstein.  
Unquestionable trust in authority is the enemy of truth. Albert Einstein
Wake up to the war on for your mind!

Offline Sangria

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #113 on: March 23, 2012, 08:43:12 pm »
I'm not wound up.  I find it interesting that you say it isn't evidence without actually looking at it.  What they are is actually descriptions of how the players are lined up, how they move the ball, their defensive system, and the reasons for them.  Sometimes the managers are even quoted!  This actually seems like a reasonable source of evidence about whether Mourinho gives tactical instructions or Guardiola tells them to pass and move and play their positions, or whether there is something more going on.  If they do what you say, then the Real Madrid and Barcelona players make up all these changes collectively on the spot.  If so, they are indeed intuitive geniuses of the highest order.

And there is evidence that intelligent coaching and tactical discipline can shackle and beat the Madrids and Barcelonas of this world.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #114 on: March 23, 2012, 08:43:13 pm »
I think your overall point is wrong.

In my opinion, players need to be top talented in order to make the complicated tactics of nowadays football work and look easy at todays pace and intensity.

But that´s always been the case.

Well clearly, I beg to differ and it's relatively straight-forward to demonstrate why I differ. I'm going to have to assume that by 'top-talented' you mean intellectually bright enough to understand the complicated tactics (because, they are complicated). I ask you this...

Do you think Messi is top-talented? Do you think he is bright? Do you know he's bright? (starters for ten, no conferring - a joke before anyone gets upset)

[BTW, the circular answer, I know Messi's bright because he understands the complicated tactics is not permitted!]

.

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #115 on: March 23, 2012, 08:45:23 pm »
I'm not wound up.  I find it interesting that you say it isn't evidence without actually looking at it.  What they are is actually descriptions of how the players are lined up, how they move the ball, their defensive system, and the reasons for them.  Sometimes the managers are even quoted!  This actually seems like a reasonable source of evidence about whether Mourinho gives tactical instructions or Guardiola tells them to pass and move and play their positions, or whether there is something more going on.  If they do what you say, then the Real Madrid and Barcelona players make up all these changes collectively on the spot.  If so, they are indeed intuitive geniuses of the highest order.

I'm sorry, you're right to say that I can only comment if I've looked at them and I did add that in (presumably while you were commenting)

.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #116 on: March 23, 2012, 08:48:22 pm »
Well clearly, I beg to differ and it's relatively straight-forward to demonstrate why I differ. I'm going to have to assume that by 'top-talented' you mean intellectually bright enough to understand the complicated tactics (because, they are complicated). I ask you this...

Do you think Messi is top-talented? Do you think he is bright? Do you know he's bright? (starters for ten, no conferring - a joke before anyone gets upset)

[BTW, the circular answer, I know Messi's bright because he understands the complicated tactics is not permitted!]

.


There's the counterpoint that Messi is bright enough because he's been coached enough, and in the right way. Roy's posted a lot of material showing the science behind sports, enough to show that the adage that (football) geniuses are born not made is oversimplified to the point of being misleading, and that practice makes perfect is a far better approximation. 10,000 hours is one of the numbers to look at.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #117 on: March 23, 2012, 08:52:19 pm »
Do you have any evidence for the bolded?

I never said I did but I have only that of my own eyes and ears. Watching players stumbling about and looking at the bench for what to do next is not pretty. I'll draw a line on the detail (pleading fifth).

.

Offline AJ4Seven

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #118 on: March 23, 2012, 08:59:34 pm »
I never said I did but I have only that of my own eyes and ears. Watching players stumbling about and looking at the bench for what to do next is not pretty. I'll draw a line on the detail (pleading fifth).

Which players are you referring to(for example I would use Torres as an example of a player who was helped by the tactics of the team he was playing in)? I don't really understand your viewpoint at all, but even if you are correct in your assumptions, the majority of football players are not "born geniuses", what should happen to them?

Offline Dick Emery

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #119 on: March 23, 2012, 09:08:43 pm »
Styles make fights, to borrow a boxing phrase. Some footballers excel in certain styles of teams because it suits them. I'd say its styles of play and not tactics that really help most players.

Physique, technique, psychology. All are critical in their own way. You can teach a player to deal with pressure and I agree with the OP that this is necessary for a lot of our current team. I am not convinced that you can teach a player to make the right decisions though. This is what sets the very elite players out from the rest - excellent decision making and consistently accurate execution.