Topic: The Irish Politics Thread.

[stockdam]

Secondly, unless you have some legitimate grief (as so eloquently put by Bill Clinton) then I don't really feel you have the right to tell people to move on, regardless of their background.

Yes I have a legitimate grief and no I don't forgive but I do not drag myself into the past. I don't want to dig up the past as I feel there's nothing to gain now. I can look at myself in the mirror everyday with pride and I only hope that those who decided that it was a good idea to destroy lives have rethought and are ashamed.

[Cliff Bastin]

Don't know what Sinn Fein have to gain from a truth commission.

[♠Dirty Harry♠]

Yes I have a legitimate grief and no I don't forgive but I do not drag myself into the past. I don't want to dig up the past as I feel there's nothing to gain now. I can look at myself in the mirror everyday with pride and I only hope that those who decided that it was a good idea to destroy lives have rethought and are ashamed.

I'm sorry to hear that, that's a hugely selfless stance, I'm sure you can understand why others would though?

Don't know what Sinn Fein have to gain from a truth commission.

Justice?

[Cliff Bastin]

I'm sorry to hear that, that's a hugely selfless stance, I'm sure you can understand why others would though?

Justice?

So lets lock half of them up? Justice will never happen because no one will go to jail.

[KERRYKOP]

Anyone who backs justice for Hillsborough should back justice for Bloody Sunday. Simply as.

[♠Dirty Harry♠]

So lets lock half of them up? Justice will never happen because no one will go to jail.

No one will go to jail if you don't pursue them.

As a Liverpool fan I thought you'd understand the gravity of that particular word.

[Cliff Bastin]

No one will go to jail if you don't pursue them.

As a Liverpool fan I thought you'd understand the gravity of that particular word.

If you can get British Army members who murdered innocents and all paramilitaries behind bars then good. But its not going to happen. You would have Gerry Adams locked away.

[campioni]

Exactly and that's why I'm concerned.

Currently I'm looking for an explanation from Sinn Fein as to what they really want. They are asking for equality and respect........equality for who and what is causing the inequality? Respect for what?

What I'm guessing is something to do with the following:

"We must defend the democratic mandate of the people to remain within the EU, through designated special status, which can secure the position of the entire island of Ireland within the European Union together".

So why did they not bring this up BEFORE the Brexit vote? They didn't ask for any special status then. We all went into the election accepting that democracy would prevail but now SF appear to me to be lifting the ball because the vote didn't go the way they wanted it to.

I read the above statement from them and it appears to me to say "we don't want Brexit and we want to be part of an Ireland that is within the EU". So what's their plan other than bringing down the government? NI can decide to vote to leave the UK but I'm afraid that the ideology of a UI is not an option just now. All it will do is to move one community into a place where they don't want to be and that has a big danger of sparking off another 1969.

So for me they are playing one dangerous game and experience tells me that talking in NI is much, much better than direct rule. Rather than lifting the ball and claiming some unworkable esoteric position they should be doing their jobs and getting back to talks. I really have no more time for the drama and the posturing. Both sides need to talk and work out a way forward otherwise things could get ugly very quickly.........nobody deserves that shit again.

With regards to Brexit you wanted Sinn Fein to set out before the referendum what their strategy was for NI if the leave vote won, despite the fact they were openly supportive of the remain vote?! Meanwhile the DUP were supportive of the leave campaign to the tune of hundreds of thousands of pounds while knowing full well that NI would be the region worst hit by Brexit. And 9 months after the referendum they and the British government still can't tell us what will happen with the border.

As for Sinn Fein's push for a united Ireland, I'm not sure why this would be a surprise to anyone. They've never been behind the door about their desire to reunify the island, it's always been part of their manifesto. The reason it's come more to the fore recently is due to the referendum result, some people believe we would be much better off as one Ireland in the EU rather than NI part of the UK outside the EU. Personally, I don't see there ever being a united Ireland in my lifetime but I've no issue with anyone who wants to campaign for it as long it's done through peaceful means. But I don't think Brexit or a united Ireland are what is stopping Sinn Fein and the DUP forming an executive at Stomont.

In the short term it has nothing to do with the ROI as it's a UK decision whether to leave the EU or not.

As for the border, I would doubt if anything will happen as nobody wants it. There already is a hard border for anyone in NI but it is to the rest of the UK (GB). I don't think GB will care about the border, NI won't want it and the ROI won't want it. The EU may try to force it but in that case just stick two old boys on the border checkpoints who just wave at everybody.

You may find the issue of the border coming up if one side starts to be hit financially but I think there's no desire to implement it.

If GB doesn't care about the border then what was the point of the referendum? One of the most important points for leave campaigners was the ability to close the UK borders and put a tighter control on immigration. Unless there is a hard border with checkpoints then how do you prevent people from any EU member state entering the UK via the RoI?

[Cliff Bastin]

Maybe more EU immigration into Northern Ireland would help the social makeup of the place, lessen the orange and green cultures and bring in more cultures.

[stockdam]

I'm sorry to hear that, that's a hugely selfless stance, I'm sure you can understand why others would though?

I fully understand the impact of a terrorist attack (call it war or terrorism or whatever you want). The suffering goes on daily when all of the media have moved on. The people who committed the barbaric acts can live their lives as normal but those who were affected are constantly going back to hospital years and years later. The suffering is vivid and it's there whether it was caused by the IRA, INLA, Real IRA, UDA, UVF, RHC, RUC, Army............it's brutal living with it.

The Belfast Agreement gave an amnesty to all involved and I see no reason to chase after anyone now. If Sinn Fein want justice then I'm afraid that I will seek it too and maybe one or two of them may end up in jail. However it's better to move on and work for peace. There is no place in my heart for forgiveness but I do have a place for peace and all that it brings to the younger generations. I do not have any time for the weasel words of those who try to explain the reasons why a lot of folk are suffering for no real justification.

Oh and it's not really the same as Hillsborough as the Belfast Agreement was put in place to end the violence. My kids don't have to go through the crap that I went through and that to me is the biggest source of joy. As for those who were involved........well they can face their maker some day and explain why.

[stockdam]

Maybe more EU immigration into Northern Ireland would help the social makeup of the place, lessen the orange and green cultures and bring in more cultures.

That's probably true. The ROI is much more of a multi-secular society than NI.

[Corkboy]

Anyone who backs justice for Hillsborough should back justice for Bloody Sunday. Simply as.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/6RTJ4vHoYUs" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/6RTJ4vHoYUs</a>

[filopastry]

Maybe more EU immigration into Northern Ireland would help the social makeup of the place, lessen the orange and green cultures and bring in more cultures.

They tried that around where I grew up, it didn't work as well as you might think.....

http://www.tyronetimes.co.uk/news/moygashel-hate-attack-1-1749164

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28128657

[Purple Red]

Any other NI folks on here who share the growing demand for MLA's salaries to be stopped while they continue to refuse to come to a deal? It's alarming how little time these poeple spend at home at the expense of the taxpayer. A sharp jab to the pocket might encourage them to act like adults.

[stockdam]

Any other NI folks on here who share the growing demand for MLA's salaries to be stopped while they continue to refuse to come to a deal? It's alarming how little time these poeple spend at home at the expense of the taxpayer. A sharp jab to the pocket might encourage them to act like adults.

I think we're seeing the usual tribal politics and I think things will resolve themselves soon.

[Purple Red]

I think we're seeing the usual tribal politics and I think things will resolve themselves soon.

Hopefully. They can do one if they think I'm voting in another election as well. Just because the result wasn't what the parties wanted doesn't entitle them to keep holding votes until they get the desired outcome.

[naka]

Any other NI folks on here who share the growing demand for MLA's salaries to be stopped while they continue to refuse to come to a deal? It's alarming how little time these poeple spend at home at the expense of the taxpayer. A sharp jab to the pocket might encourage them to act like adults.

to be fair most ordinary tax payers are.
there is no incentive for these charlatans to do a deal.
I wonder if we cut their wages would they be a little more progressive.

for what its worth as a nationalist martin`s death has allowed  in my view Gerry to start manipulating again. Martin was pragmatic and more accommodating than Adams.

[Purple Red]

to be fair most ordinary tax payers are.
there is no incentive for these charlatans to do a deal.
I wonder if we cut their wages would they be a little more progressive.

for what its worth as a nationalist martin`s death has allowed  in my view Gerry to start manipulating again. Martin was pragmatic and more accommodating than Adams.

Adams seems to be calling the shots in SF in the north again which is unfortunate as he offers nothing. We had a good few years there when his focus was on the south, water charges etc. but it is worrying that he has decided to go on a crusade in NI again. I'm sure O'Neill has good political talents but we will never see them as long as she continues to be Adam's poodle. McGuinness could never have been accused of being a narcissist or obsessed with his legacy, my fear with Adams would be that he wants one big personal victory at the expense of the people of NI. He seems unconcerned about the brewing crisis. Let's just hope this is a classic NI impasse in which everybody ends up crawling back to Stormont having achieved very little.

[naka]

Adams seems to be calling the shots in SF in the north again which is unfortunate as he offers nothing. We had a good few years there when his focus was on the south, water charges etc. but it is worrying that he has decided to go on a crusade in NI again. I'm sure O'Neill has good political talents but we will never see them as long as she continues to be Adam's poodle. McGuinness could never have been accused of being a narcissist or obsessed with his legacy, my fear with Adams would be that he wants one big personal victory at the expense of the people of NI. He seems unconcerned about the brewing crisis. Let's just hope this is a classic NI impasse in which everybody ends up crawling back to Stormont having achieved very little.

the reality is that the shinners can`t really broker a deal in the North without it impacting on their southern stance. I think they are hoping an election kicks in within the next six months down south
how can they implement cuts to Health, education, social welfare etc in the North when they are anti austerity in the south.
Adams knows that well.
 My view is he should step down and allow sharp operators like Doherty, mc Donald to run the party in the South. I reserve my opinion on Oneill because simply I don`t know enough about her to be honest.

a starter though is to cut their wages

[Cliff Bastin]

Unionism tended to listen to Mcguinness much more than Gerry Adams. People I know switch off when he comes on the TV.

[Purple Red]

the reality is that the shinners can`t really broker a deal in the North without it impacting on their southern stance. I think they are hoping an election kicks in within the next six months down south
how can they implement cuts to Health, education, social welfare etc in the North when they are anti austerity in the south.
Adams knows that well.
 My view is he should step down and allow sharp operators like Doherty, mc Donald to run the party in the South. I reserve my opinion on Oneill because simply I don`t know enough about her to be honest.

a starter though is to cut their wages

If that is their view, and you could well be right, they are taking a massive gamble. They can't hold the people of NI to ransom over their political ambitions in the Dail. They have no idea if there'll be an election in the south. They need to be mature and recognise the unique situation in Northern Ireland. It requires them to compromise and come to a deal.

[kennedy81]

Europe could allow a united Ireland to join EU after Brexit

Leaders expected to discuss statement at weekend summit that if the island reunifies, the north will automatically regain EU membership.


European leaders may be preparing to recognise a united Ireland, in a declaration that would pave the way for the north to swiftly rejoin the European Union. At their first Brexit summit on Saturday, the EU’s 27 leaders are expected to discuss a text stating that if Ireland unified, the north would automatically become part of the EU.

The inclusion of the text is a victory for the Irish government, which had pressed for the inclusion of a “GDR clause”, a reference to the integration of the former east German state into the European Community after the fall of the Berlin wall. The declaration is bound to raise fears that Brexit could trigger the unravelling of the UK, although there is no majority in Northern Ireland for unification.
Britain’s divorce bill must be settled before Brexit talks, says Angela Merkel
Read more

EU diplomats are braced for a fierce reaction from the UK, given the angry tabloid headlines that followed speculation about the status of Gibraltar. After lobbying from Madrid, the EU agreed that the Spanish government would be able to exclude the Rock from any EU-UK trade agreement if it was not satisfied with the status of the territory.

The Irish clause is informed by the Good Friday peace agreement, which states that north and south of Ireland have a right to unify if a majority agree north of the border. Enda Kenny, the taoiseach, has argued that it is important for the north of Ireland to have “ease of access” to rejoin the EU if reunification were to occur.

A draft of the summit minutes seen by the Guardian refers to the Good Friday provision for a united Ireland and adds that this event would bring the north into the EU. The draft says: “The European Council acknowledges that, in accordance with international law, the entire territory of such a united Ireland would thus be part of the European Union [in the event of Irish unification].”

Brexit has put the issue of a united Ireland back into the spotlight, but public support remains cool. In Northern Ireland, a recent poll found that a clear majority of 62% would vote for the territory to remain in the UK, while only 22% backed a united Ireland. Voters in the republic are also sceptical, especially if reunification comes with a price tag.

Asked how they would vote in a referendum if the cost of a united Ireland was €9bn a year, only a third of Irish respondents said they would vote yes, while a third would vote against and the rest were undecided.
Guardian Today: the headlines, the analysis, the debate - sent direct to you
Read more

The GDR clause is contained in a text separate from the EU’s official negotiating guidelines, because it is seen as a reflection of the Good Friday agreement, rather than an issue to be negotiated with the UK.

Brussels insiders are expecting a short summit on Saturday where EU leaders swiftly put their seal to the Brexit negotiating guidelines, a document outlining the EU’s red lines, which have already been agreed at a technical level.

As the clock ticks down to the launch of formal negotiations after the 8 June election, there are signs that the EU is becoming increasingly exasperated with the UK. On Thursday, Angela Merkel said British politicians were living under the illusion that the UK would retain most of its EU privileges once it leaves the bloc.

Shortly before giving this speech to the Bundestag, the German chancellor spoke to the European commission president, Jean-Claude Juncker. He reported on a dinner the previous night at No 10 Downing Street, where he and the EU’s chief Brexit negotiator met Theresa May and her top officials.

One EU diplomat said: “I am deeply pessimistic that there will be a positive outcome from this negotiation,” putting the chances of the UK crashing out of the EU without a deal as higher than 50%.

The EU is frustrated that May’s team has not, as they see it, “engaged with reality” on David Cameron’s promises to pay into the EU budget until 2020 – a promise Brussels insists the British must stick to. “They [the British] are not just on a different planet, they are in a different galaxy,” said the source.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/apr/27/eu-to-debate-recognising-united-ireland-to-allow-swift-return-for-north

[thejbs]

I fully understand the impact of a terrorist attack (call it war or terrorism or whatever you want). The suffering goes on daily when all of the media have moved on. The people who committed the barbaric acts can live their lives as normal but those who were affected are constantly going back to hospital years and years later. The suffering is vivid and it's there whether it was caused by the IRA, INLA, Real IRA, UDA, UVF, RHC, RUC, Army............it's brutal living with it.

The Belfast Agreement gave an amnesty to all involved and I see no reason to chase after anyone now. If Sinn Fein want justice then I'm afraid that I will seek it too and maybe one or two of them may end up in jail. However it's better to move on and work for peace. There is no place in my heart for forgiveness but I do have a place for peace and all that it brings to the younger generations. I do not have any time for the weasel words of those who try to explain the reasons why a lot of folk are suffering for no real justification.

Oh and it's not really the same as Hillsborough as the Belfast Agreement was put in place to end the violence. My kids don't have to go through the crap that I went through and that to me is the biggest source of joy. As for those who were involved........well they can face their maker some day and explain why.

As an atheist who also lost someone innocent in a case where there was police collusion in their murder, I would have to disagree on your last point, regarding some kind of karmic or supernatural kind of justice.

[Libertine]

Enda is stepping down then (finally).

New taoiseach to be in place on June 2nd.

[KERRYKOP]

Enda an era

[Elmo!]

Enda an era

I Kenny believe it!

[MBL?]

I like the things Varadkar has set out to do. None of this populist bollocks you see from most.

Infrastructure is a must and making the tax system fairer would be a great start. Banning essential public services from striking is a good one but I don't see it happening.

[goalrushatgoodison]

I like the things Varadkar has set out to do. None of this populist bollocks you see from most.

Infrastructure is a must and making the tax system fairer would be a great start. Banning essential public services from striking is a good one but I don't see it happening.

You don't think that banning essential public services from striking would be populist?

[MBL?]

You don't think that banning essential public services from striking would be populist?

Fair point

[kennedy81]

I like the things Varadkar has set out to do. None of this populist bollocks you see from most.

Infrastructure is a must and making the tax system fairer would be a great start. Banning essential public services from striking is a good one but I don't see it happening.

There are issues there with regards essential public services striking but I certainly won't be voting for any party who wants to make striking illegal, whether public or private.
I still hope he gets in ahead of Coveney though. I've no time for him at all.

[MBL?]

Not sure whether it's the unions or workers fault but I think it's unfair that we can be held to ransom. I think everyone should be entitled to a fair wage but the luas and bus drivers took the piss. If they were that unhappy with theier wages they should have to do what the rest of us do and find a new job.

[KERRYKOP]

I like the things Varadkar has set out to do. None of this populist bollocks you see from most.

Going after dole cheats and making a public song and dance about it not populist enough for you?

Leo is another lizard

[Corkboy]

Looks like the Dublin/Everywhere else rifts are opening nicely.

[kennedy81]

Not sure whether it's the unions or workers fault but I think it's unfair that we can be held to ransom. I think everyone should be entitled to a fair wage but the luas and bus drivers took the piss. If they were that unhappy with theier wages they should have to do what the rest of us do and find a new job.

And if they all went and got new jobs, who'd drive the buses?

[KERRYKOP]

Trying to ban certain occupations from striking is fascism

[Ray K]

And if they all went and got new jobs, who'd drive the buses?

I'd love a go. Not too arsed about picking up passengers, but you know, minor details.

[Sarge]

There are issues there with regards essential public services striking but I certainly won't be voting for any party who wants to make striking illegal, whether public or private.
I still hope he gets in ahead of Coveney though. I've no time for him at all.

Agree but would never vote FF/FG anyway, not a fan of both but no idea who i would prefer.

[Sarge]

Looks like the Dublin/Everywhere else rifts are opening nicely.

Hahahaaaa true but Coveney looks do now to be honest.

[Sarge]

Trying to ban certain occupations from striking is fascism

And never going to work. Should I mention the Blue Shirts or will I say nothing?

[KERRYKOP]

I'd love a go. Not too arsed about picking up passengers, but you know, minor details.

Move the cab up to the top deck, smoking fags and drinking cans on your free lane around the city