Topic: Jeremy Corbyn : RAWK Decides!

[stewil007]

I’ve no idea who to vote for.

Corbyn’s economic policies are just hilarious, whilst he stands for issues I believe in.

The Tories are the tories; only arsed about the top 10% but are economically more sound.

The Lib Dems have about as much clout as wet cardboard, but have decent policies.

Are the Tories more economically sound?  I guess that is what we are constantly told.....how big is the countrys debt?  when will they get a surplus?

I don't mind Corbyn, but I don't think he has been given positive press in this country since he came into leadership.  For every positive article, I imagine you could find 20 negative ones.  And for my mind its no wonder those not that engaged in politics would never see themselves voting for a Corbyn lead Labour Party....and as our media output in this country tends to be more right leaning, will he ever get a fair crack of the whip.  Probably not.

[KillieRed]

I like the guy, I like most of his policies, but a few things grate with me:

(1)Absolute weakness/collaboration over Brexit. He should come out on the side of Remain as the majority of his party members want.

(2)His anti-Scottish Independence stance; instead of joining with the SNP as worthy allies, he`s given SLAB a free rein to attack them whilst palling-up with the Tories in Scotland. This is beyond the pale. He`s ruled out any sort of alliance against the greater enemy in vain hopes of recovering the lost automatic seats in Scotland. He doesn't seem to realise that people moved to the SNP over general policies rather than Independence. It was a reflection of his party.

(3)His flip-floppery over Trident. I suspect his views would be very different if the nuclear bases were on the Thames, Mersey or Humber.

(4)His continual support for FPTP electoral politics, as exhibited with most of his stances I`ve listed above.


Over all, I think he`s a good guy who`s been the victim of outrageous right-wing smear tactics, but he`s not PM material as the polls show that so many people would rather have the weakest, most incompetent Tory leader in recent history as PM.

[No666]

Brexit is the deal-breaker for Corbyn and current Labour for me. But yeah - who the hell do you vote for? There are many who feel disenfranchised by the two main parties agreeing on the single most important issue of our times, but will any Parliamentarians have the guts to forge a new party? I've come to doubt it.

[cornishscouser92]

Are the Tories more economically sound?  I guess that is what we are constantly told.....how big is the countrys debt?  when will they get a surplus?

I don't mind Corbyn, but I don't think he has been given positive press in this country since he came into leadership.  For every positive article, I imagine you could find 20 negative ones.  And for my mind its no wonder those not that engaged in politics would never see themselves voting for a Corbyn lead Labour Party....and as our media output in this country tends to be more right leaning, will he ever get a fair crack of the whip.  Probably not.

I think after the 2008 financial crash it was widely accepted the UK’s current deficit would have to come down from £150bn per year.

The level of debt was always going to rise whom ever was in government from 2010. It’s true the growth has been sluggish/wages haven’t gone anywhere; but that was always going to be the case after a massive economic recession.

The cause of the recession, banks not having enough capital (Shit regulation from Labour) and too many risky investments in the sub prime sector in America (Particularly RBS; HSBC was run properly and thus didn’t need bailing out).  Effectively, too much borrowing by banks for risky investments and poor regulation from the then Labour government.

Corbyn’s policy of £50bn of spending to take the country back to a £70bn deficit is just mad. Yes the public services need more money and I don’t agree with the way the Tories have just spent the extra money in the budget the other day. However it isn’t wise to do this during a recovery.

The surplus is all political, no country runs a surplus for an extended period of time. The Tories will run the deficit at around £20bn to keep the economy stimulated during brexit.

Oh I agree he’s received negative press. But then issues around NI, Anti-semitism etc are always going to come up. Personally, I think May and Corbyn are two woeful leaders.

[stewil007]

Oh I agree he’s received negative press. But then issues around NI, Anti-semitism etc are always going to come up. Personally, I think May and Corbyn are two woeful leaders.

I'm not saying either are great, by any means, but the attack dogs have only been set on one side.

The way some rags fawn over May is not to believe reality and its this which can effect peoples thinking when its comes to voting intention/polls etc

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Don't you vote for the lib dems? How did they get on in the last election? The cheek of saying labour support the Tories when it was your party that enabled systematic murder of the most vulnerable people in society

lad you want a man who’s at best an anti Semite enabler to run the country

[TepidT2O]

I'm not saying either are great, by any means, but the attack dogs have only been set on one side.

The way some rags fawn over May is not to believe reality and its this which can effect peoples thinking when its comes to voting intention/polls etc

Oh that’s not true.  May gets slaughtered by her own party, absolutely slaughtered.

And rightly so (although for different reasons that you or I might condemn her).

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

The press in this country are exceptional at influencing the views of the people, even the intelligent ones.

[TepidT2O]

The press in this country are exceptional at influencing the views of the people, even the intelligent ones.

Or do they just reflect what the public are thinking? (However unpalatable)

There’s something of a chicken and egg situation here.

[stewil007]

Oh that’s not true.  May gets slaughtered by her own party, absolutely slaughtered.

And rightly so (although for different reasons that you or I might condemn her).

I get that, but that is by her own party but generally I think when it comes to the media, the consensus is still that she is the answer (for now). 

Sometimes I looks at these polls that say she is doing a great job as PM and think I'm must be through the looking glass but yet there it is. 

[stewil007]

Or do they just reflect what the public are thinking? (However unpalatable)

There’s something of a chicken and egg situation here.

I genuinely believe its lead by media to create the narrative.......its the drip, drip feed of negativity or whatever and all of a sudden individuals stating that that's what they've thought all along.

[filopastry]

I get that, but that is by her own party but generally I think when it comes to the media, the consensus is still that she is the answer (for now). 

Sometimes I looks at these polls that say she is doing a great job as PM and think I'm must be through the looking glass but yet there it is. 

I think most polls say people view her as a better PM than Corbyn, but personal ratings for both are poor.

The last poll I saw had "Don't Know" as the most popular response to "Who would be the best PM?"

[Lush is the best medicine...]

The press in this country are exceptional at influencing the views of the people, even the intelligent ones.

helps when Corbyns past and present is what it is

[Millie]

Getting sick of the insinuation by a certain poster in here that if you don't support Corbyn you are a Blairite or a tory. 

I don't support Corbyn because of his stance on Brexit.  To me Brexit is the most important issue affecting this country right now and the way he is dealing with it, or rather not dealing with it, is quite simply atrocious.

[AndyMuller]

Voted ok. Brexit the big issue why I didn’t vote for great.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

helps when Corbyns past and present is what it is

Past is the past, "terrorists" have become MP's. As for his present I am unaware of any genuine issues, I am aware of those that the press make up or twist to suit an agenda.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Voted ok. Brexit the big issue why I didn’t vote for great.

Exactly the same for me.

[J_Kopite]

Past is the past, "terrorists" have become MP's. As for his present I am unaware of an genuine issues, I am aware of those that the press make up or twist to suit an agenda.

Errr, even leaving aside the Irish conflict question (he didn't advocate for peace or the GFA remember, just a United Ireland) have you completely missed the Labour anti-semitism rows recently? Or his appearance on Iranian state TV?

Are they "made up" or "twisted"?

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Well, my opinion in this is less than a piece of piss.

Nonetheless, the De Tocqueville quote is apt --- people often get the politics they deserve. 

Maybe a politics of gratitude might be in order.  It could be worse UK! 

You could have this douchebag leading your party/country



Comparatively, Corbyn looks like a powerhouse. 

And let's not forget that there may other issues (publicly not stated) - like financial regulation where even US economists acknowledge that London is the premier capital for unregulated corporate capitalism run amok (capital of dark money) that explain his stance on Brexit.
Never underestimate strategy, taking a political hit in the short term to gain an advantage --- especially in these times. Deception is a pre-requisite to take power in crony capitalist moment.

Like I said though, worth a piece of piss.

[stewil007]

Errr, even leaving aside the Irish conflict question (he didn't advocate for peace or the GFA remember, just a United Ireland) have you completely missed the Labour anti-semitism rows recently? Or his appearance on Iranian state TV?

Are they "made up" or "twisted"?

Just to a point I made above, and it feels like a race to the bottom, but the media stance on anti-Semitism - isn't it just as bad in other parties?  Or is it just a Labour issue?

Because if I was looking from the outside, I would think that it is only Labour who had an issue and Corbyn was somehow just to the right of the Nazis, whereas other parties are whiter than white.

[Qston]

It needs context really. If the idea of him as a leader is the basic premise then 'shite' is my response. He is clearly a man of principle (even if many of those principles are shocking to me) but the idea of him and John McDonnell leading the country would fill me with dread. I particularly don`t like the aggressive hounding out of more centrist people within the labour party. Corbyn has not shown any real leadership on many issues such as brexit, anti semitism and momentum and some of its 'tactics'.

I am perhaps part of the relatively quiet majority (could be a minority - I don`t really know) that are pretty centrist on most issues.  Hold on, am I lib dem voter ?!

I would, without hesitation, put all that to one side if labour policy was to do a u turn on brexit which is the most pressing political cataclysm threatening us. It doesn`t mean that I don`t think Corbyn is shite though.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Because if I was looking from the outside, I would think that it is only Labour who had an issue and Corbyn was somehow just to the right of the Nazis, whereas other parties are whiter than white.

Exactly!

This is exactly what the Tories and most of the tabloid press want you to think.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

One of the most relevant aspects of any politician's agenda in this new age of fake information/disinformation transmission is what would the opposition like for you to believe about them. 

In the battle for information, owning the narrative and being able to hit your opponent with it repeatedly until it becomes truth is the game.
That is why --- some of the simplistic explanations for Trump, Clinton, Blair et al.. Corbyn just do not fit the narrative and others are welded onto the garbage heap of political shitshow trails oozing from them and their political corpses.

[J_Kopite]

Labour dodginess about anti-semitism is not made up or twisted though, whataboutery or blaming the media doesn't work when they do such a shit job of actually convincing people they want to rid it from the party.

[Billy Elliot]

Not a big fan of him personally, but prefer his policy over that of the moderates.

Leadership wise, had worse, had better. 

Potential to win an election?  Dunno.  Rallying is his biggest strength, not sure if that's the reason for coming back from miles away to a hung parliament though.

Feel that if the polls can be kept close he could have a big lead by the time the election comes.

He's not great but I wish we had someone better on the left, and I'm not sure we have.

Overall, he's OK.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Not a big fan of him personally, but prefer his policy over that of the moderates.


Overall, he's OK.

And most importantly a lot better than May.

[stewil007]

Labour dodginess about anti-semitism is not made up or twisted though, whataboutery or blaming the media doesn't work when they do such a shit job of actually convincing people they want to rid it from the party.

I'm not saying its made up, but there has definitely been twisting to suit an agenda.

Is there Anti-Semitism in other main political parties? 

I know you say they did a shit job of convincing people otherwise, but I don't think it would have mattered what they said, they would have been hammered regardless until it had the required effect.  That's just my personal opinion.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Labour dodginess about anti-semitism is not made up or twisted though, whataboutery or blaming the media doesn't work when they do such a shit job of actually convincing people they want to rid it from the party.

Where and when did this "whataboutery" nonsense start? Basically it seems to mean you can't use other examples to discuss anything, it effectively shuts the door on debate, similar to the current anti-expert trend.

[filopastry]

Not a big fan of him personally, but prefer his policy over that of the moderates.

Leadership wise, had worse, had better. 

Potential to win an election?  Dunno.  Rallying is his biggest strength, not sure if that's the reason for coming back from miles away to a hung parliament though.

Feel that if the polls can be kept close he could have a big lead by the time the election comes.

He's not great but I wish we had someone better on the left, and I'm not sure we have.

Overall, he's OK.

I think there were 2 main factors that drove the improvement in Labour's fortunes over the last campaign, I think the manifesto was popular amongst a reasonably hefty group, and why wouldn't it be, most of us are pretty selfish and if you offer people a lot of spending that somebody else is going to pay for, it will generally go down well, probably difficult to manage quite the same impact second time around as I think those expectations for the Labour manifesto will already be there this time, and there will be diminishing returns with a more radical manifesto.

Secondly I think the Tories just ran an unbelievably awful campaign, and Theresa May embarrassed herself on the campaign trail, perhaps understandably as she seems incapable of talking to members of the public, no idea how that will play out next time, as we have no idea who will be leading the Tories next time out.

I do think the campaign went reasonably well last time out for Labour though and Corbyn is certainly an energetic and passionate campaigner as long as he gives a shit about the outcome (compare and contrast his performances during the Brexit referendum and the GE).

I still feel the old rule of thumb is probably pretty accurate if the opposition is to have a big chance of winning in the next GE it probably needs to be running big polling leads in the middle of the parliament, it hasn't happened for Labour so far but we will see what happens post-Brexit

Otherwise Labour's best chance of power is probably looking at getting support from the SNP in return for some cash for Scotland and a second independence vote.

[Billy Elliot]

I still feel the old rule of thumb is probably pretty accurate if the opposition is to have a big chance of winning in the next GE it probably needs to be running big polling leads in the middle of the parliament, it hasn't happened for Labour so far but we will see what happens post-Brexit

Otherwise Labour's best chance of power is probably looking at getting support from the SNP in return for some cash for Scotland and a second independence vote.

It's very strange this time because the normal pattern would be for the Government to have a decent lead immediately after the election, then to lose their lead mid term.

This has been the opposite, not that I have much faith in polls anymore. 

[eddymunster]

Shite.

Any leader that doesn't come out in direct opposition of Brexit at this time shouldn't hold office.

[[new username under construction]]

Unfortunately shite, among many small faults I've never seen an opposition leader tee up a PM so much to hit them out of the park in PMQ's

[itsaknockuyt]

Shite.

IMO any other Labour leader in my adult life (going back to Kinnock) and no doubt beyond would have this Tory shower of spivs and crooks on the ropes by now. Labour should have been well on the way to a 1997 style landslide by now but are still behind in the polls despite of everything. The Tories are finished long term and continue to drive themselves off a cliff - incompetent and vindictive & the generation they bribed with cheap council houses are now dying out.  Labour should be making this government's day to day existence a living misery but risk following them off the cliff.

Maybe I'm biased because whilst left leaning I'm not at the extreme/Corbyn end of the political spectrum.   If anyone had've told me 10 years ago I would go dewy eyed for Gordon Brown I'd probably have called them insane.

Corbyn had the opportunity to be the staging point which all the Remain voters could rally round, but has decided to put party politics first and effectively leave the worst government in living memory unopposed. I know there is the argument that if you're enemy is making a mistake then let them but the greater good of the country should've come first. This isn't the time for tactical games.

Would still vote for him though if there was a snap election and it was a direct choice between his politics and the disaster capitalism of an ultra right wing Tory government. It might cost me more personally as a company director/higher rate tax payer but we all have to breathe the same air.

[Alan_X]

Where and when did this "whataboutery" nonsense start? Basically it seems to mean you can't use other examples to discuss anything, it effectively shuts the door on debate, similar to the current anti-expert trend.

'Whataboutery' isn't nonsense.

Simple question: Does the Tory party being anti-semitic make it acceptable in the Labour Party?

A simple yes or no will do.

It's perfectly straightforward as far as I'm concerned: The Labour Party should not accommodate anti-semites but sadly, too many* of Corbyn's mates on the far-left hold those views.

I don't need to know what any other party does or doesn't do.

*For the record - one is 'too many'.

[stewil007]

'Whataboutery' isn't nonsense.

Simple question: Does the Tory party being anti-semitic make it acceptable in the Labour Party?

A simple yes or no will do.

It's perfectly straightforward as far as I'm concerned: The Labour Party should not accommodate anti-semites but sadly, too many* of Corbyn's mates on the far-left hold those views.

I don't need to know what any other party does or doesn't do.

*For the record - one is 'too many'.

Isn't it a hard pill to swallow tho?  I agree that about the question by the way.  But when your attackers are from a party that has the same problem that's where it muddy's the water for me.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Simple question: Does the Tory party being anti-semitic make it acceptable in the Labour Party?

Of course not.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

'Whataboutery' isn't nonsense.

Simple question: Does the Tory party being anti-semitic make it acceptable in the Labour Party?

A simple yes or no will do.

It's perfectly straightforward as far as I'm concerned: The Labour Party should not accommodate anti-semites but sadly, too many* of Corbyn's mates on the far-left hold those views.

I don't need to know what any other party does or doesn't do.

*For the record - one is 'too many'.

Including his scruffy c*nt of a brother.

[Alan_X]

Of course not.

Then raising what the Tories do is whataboutery - that's the definition.

[Xabi Gerrard]

'Whataboutery' isn't nonsense.

Simple question: Does the Tory party being anti-semitic make it acceptable in the Labour Party?

A simple yes or no will do.

It's perfectly straightforward as far as I'm concerned: The Labour Party should not accommodate anti-semites but sadly, too many* of Corbyn's mates on the far-left hold those views.

I don't need to know what any other party does or doesn't do.

*For the record - one is 'too many'.

Doesn't this bolded line become a big problem though when another party is the one in the seat of power? Just because we didn't vote Conservative I don't think it's ok for us to be apathetic about their racism, I don't think we can just wipe our hands of it. If anything, it's arguably more important to hold the party in power to account, rather than the party you support, as they're the ones whose racist views have the power to affect people's lives right now.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

'Whataboutery' isn't nonsense.

Simple question: Does the Tory party being anti-semitic make it acceptable in the Labour Party?

A simple yes or no will do.

It's perfectly straightforward as far as I'm concerned: The Labour Party should not accommodate anti-semites but sadly, too many* of Corbyn's mates on the far-left hold those views.

I don't need to know what any other party does or doesn't do.

*For the record - one is 'too many'.

also with labour it’s the case with many at the top unlike the tories