Author Topic: Legalisation of All Drugs  (Read 16857 times)

Offline CraigDS

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #80 on: September 6, 2018, 10:04:45 am »
You need to open an economics book. There is a massive price differential between legal goods and illegal goods, because the illegal goods have the risk of conviction and imprisonment factored into their pricing.

I've got an economics degree  ;D

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #81 on: September 6, 2018, 10:18:37 am »
I've got an economics degree  ;D

So do I.

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #82 on: September 6, 2018, 10:20:44 am »

Offline Broad Spectrum

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #83 on: September 6, 2018, 02:09:41 pm »
What the fuck do economists know about taking drugs?!  ;D

Like I said on the previous page, I think the first discussion to be had should be centered around decriminalisation of personal amounts as opposed to a blanket legalisation policy.

Offline SamAteTheRedAcid

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #84 on: September 6, 2018, 03:25:35 pm »
You need to open an economics book. There is a massive price differential between legal goods and illegal goods, because the illegal goods have the risk of conviction and imprisonment factored into their pricing.

Well exactly. And you know I'd much rather walk down the shop and buy it rather than have to wait around for hours for a random fella to turn up/maybe not turn up with goods that you have no time to inspect, no guarantee of quality etc.

Even if there was an extra cost, the simple convenience would make it worth paying for many people like myself.
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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #85 on: September 6, 2018, 04:43:14 pm »
Mixing which two?

My point that you replied to was that to eradicate the black market sale of (currently) illegal drugs in the UK once they are legalised then the high & constant quality drugs then being sold legally will need to be cheaper (or at least competitively priced) to those provided on the black market.

With both the drug cartels still in business (as just the UK legalising drugs will do nothing to change that), and the additional costs to produce, import and sell the drugs via legal means, I'm not sure that would be possible.


Cartels have the monopoly because of the legality,there are other sources for opioids and they could up production.But again the Cartels are filling the market with the smuggling,if that market is filled then the smuggling becomes more hassle that it is worth for them,the reason why the drugs are priced as they are is the cost of that smuggling and the premium they charge due to being the only players in the market.

Importing the legal drug will always be cheaper than what the Cartels can provide.

From a personal point of view,I 'd be happy for just weed and hallucinogens to be made legal,both of which are grown in the UK.
« Last Edit: September 6, 2018, 04:46:11 pm by WhereAngelsPlay »
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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #86 on: September 6, 2018, 04:44:34 pm »
Come on you can't seriously believe that can you?

The cost to produce legally in whatever country will rise when drug cartels aren't paying pennies to the farmers and a real cost needs to be paid. Not only that but the cost to produce a higher quality and consistent product will increase massively given the testing and production methods that will be required (we aren't talking some hut hidden away).

Add to that the cost of shipping (not smuggling), the cost of import (taxes), the cost of distribution around the country, the cost of a sales network (rent, real wages, etc) and you can quickly see why an illegally produced and imported product would be cheaper.

The farmers could be paid 1000x's what they currently get and the price would still be lower than anything that the Cartels could match.
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Online Mumm-Ra

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #87 on: September 6, 2018, 07:18:43 pm »
The farmers could be paid 1000x's what they currently get and the price would still be lower than anything that the Cartels street-level dealers could match.

Fixed that for you. The cartels could make it very cheap, but they're not exactly socialists

Online drmick

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #88 on: September 6, 2018, 07:40:51 pm »
Interesting debate this one.

My, albeit limited, understanding of the evidence from Portugal, is that the stats can be interpreted either way. Certainly not a massive pro-decriminalization signal.

On a personal level, the few Portuguese drug users I have come across do seem to be a more civil lot, and have jobs, whereas the locals are more likely to be long term unemployed and are associated with a significant criminal element.

One thing I am convinced of- the guys I know who abuse it right now- they would certainly increase their use if it was decriminalized and more easily accessed. And it would likely be the death of a few of them.

I do like the contrast with other vices mentioned- religion, guns, gambling, obesity, alcohol, teenage pregnancy, STDs etc. In terms of trusting the (potentially uneducated) public- even Brexit and Trump's election must prove that some degree of oversight of their decision making must be required?

And, as others have mentioned, the title needs changed to "decriminalisation". The likes of cocaine and heroin will NEVER be legal. This in turn means that the criminality associated with their use will still exist. The costs of policing it might drop, the other health costs will still exist (and potentially increase if decriminalization leads to increased use).

Offline jason67

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #89 on: September 6, 2018, 07:56:56 pm »
Is it a long shot to say that those against drugs never went to places like Shelley's, Hac and hundreds of other places like those in the very early 90's?
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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #90 on: September 6, 2018, 08:05:03 pm »
Exactly..

Sad to say, experience shows us that farmers of anything seldom get paid more than a pittance...

And of course, many drugs aren’t farmed at all.
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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #91 on: September 6, 2018, 08:06:48 pm »
Is it a long shot to say that those against drugs never went to places like Shelley's, Hac and hundreds of other places like those in the very early 90's?
I would like to say that I’ve never been there, never would and have never or would never take illegal drugs (dull I know).

But that doesn’t stop me realising  that total legalisation is the only sane response.
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Online drmick

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #92 on: September 7, 2018, 08:39:32 pm »
I would like to say that I’ve never been there, never would and have never or would never take illegal drugs (dull I know).

But that doesn’t stop me realising  that total legalisation is the only sane response.
You can't legalise the hard drugs, mate. Decriminalization and legalization are not the same thing.

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #93 on: September 7, 2018, 08:58:10 pm »
You can't legalise the hard drugs, mate. Decriminalization and legalization are not the same thing.
Why not?

They used to be legal.
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #94 on: September 8, 2018, 02:59:34 pm »
Why not?

They used to be legal.

Yes the Romantics thrived on it,  but Coffee was illegal.

 i do see the point of not allowing Heroin to be legalised for me  it's a bit like saying drinking is ok but what happens if they can get just pure alcohol instead.

 In my opinion it comes down to the level of harm for the user and their family etc, and yes i was a teenager in the late sixties so i have dabbled with some of the most popular soft drugs and acid for a short time during that era.

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Offline cloggypop

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #95 on: September 8, 2018, 05:20:41 pm »
Psychedelics should be compulsory at least once.

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #96 on: September 8, 2018, 06:48:22 pm »
Yes the Romantics thrived on it,  but Coffee was illegal.

 i do see the point of not allowing Heroin to be legalised for me 

A lot of heroin deaths are due to either an adulterated supply or an exceptionallly pure dose which far exceeds the purity the user normally takes. With a legal supply the user gets clean heroin of known strength. Unlike with, e.g. cannabis, I'm not advocating open sales, but supplying to registered addicts would make sense.
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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #97 on: September 8, 2018, 06:49:06 pm »
Psychedelics should be compulsory at least once.

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #98 on: September 8, 2018, 06:58:57 pm »
A lot of heroin deaths are due to either an adulterated supply or an exceptionallly pure dose which far exceeds the purity the user normally takes. With a legal supply the user gets clean heroin of known strength. Unlike with, e.g. cannabis, I'm not advocating open sales, but supplying to registered addicts would make sense.
Exactly...


You get more control of its legalised..
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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #99 on: September 9, 2018, 12:37:41 am »
Exactly...


You get more control of its legalised..
And cocaine?

Opioid substitution is available on the NHS as it is, and a select few trusts even give you heroin to inject under supervision.

On a public health level- legalizing hard drugs is the same as legalizing gun access. It will result in more deaths. Sure, you may save money spent from the public purse overall, but the sad reality is that premature deaths of all types save money, so where do you draw the line? Guns? Hard drugs? Cancer treatments? Palliative surgeries that only add a few months? Intense nursing care of severe brain damage?

What about legalizing euthanasia? For me, I can't see the distinction. You are either all in (save money, but have more deaths), or all out (spend a fortune trying to prevent preventable deaths).

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #100 on: September 9, 2018, 01:13:31 pm »
On a public health level- legalizing hard drugs is the same as legalizing gun access. It will result in more deaths.

Where is your evidence for that unsupported assertion?

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #101 on: September 9, 2018, 01:14:57 pm »
Where is your evidence for that unsupported assertion?
There was a really good report written on this about 8 or so years ago.  It gave evidence against his argument.  Damned if I can remember where to find it though.
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Offline Giono

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #102 on: September 9, 2018, 06:40:37 pm »
Exactly...


You get more control of its legalised..

Same thing with weed actually. I have friends in Canada that would never buy from a dealer again when you can go to a dispencery and always get something reliable and mild that hasn’t been laced with all kinds of things. They want single malt...
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Offline Giono

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #103 on: September 9, 2018, 06:47:08 pm »
And cocaine?

Opioid substitution is available on the NHS as it is, and a select few trusts even give you heroin to inject under supervision.

On a public health level- legalizing hard drugs is the same as legalizing gun access. It will result in more deaths. Sure, you may save money spent from the public purse overall, but the sad reality is that premature deaths of all types save money, so where do you draw the line? Guns? Hard drugs? Cancer treatments? Palliative surgeries that only add a few months? Intense nursing care of severe brain damage?

What about legalizing euthanasia? For me, I can't see the distinction. You are either all in (save money, but have more deaths), or all out (spend a fortune trying to prevent preventable deaths).


That’s BS.

Legal drugs could kill you if you overdose. Guns kill many others, not you.

And legal drugs are consistent and pure. Harder to overdose and easier to get help. And free needles reduce aids and other diseases.

Illegal drugs spread disease, increase the risk of overdose, make people with problems hide away, and drug dealers kill others with legal guns and addicts kill others to get the next fix.
« Last Edit: September 9, 2018, 06:49:21 pm by Giono »
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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #104 on: September 9, 2018, 09:04:09 pm »


Where is your evidence for that unsupported assertion?

There is plenty of evidence that there are less deaths from guns when the gun laws are stricter




There was a really good report written on this about 8 or so years ago.  It gave evidence against his argument.  Damned if I can remember where to find it though.

There is some evidence to suggest that there might be less harm from all drugs when they are decriminalized. But again I reiterate decriminalization and legalization are not the same thing.




That’s BS.

Legal drugs could kill you if you overdose. Guns kill many others, not you.

And legal drugs are consistent and pure. Harder to overdose and easier to get help. And free needles reduce aids and other diseases.

Illegal drugs spread disease, increase the risk of overdose, make people with problems hide away, and drug dealers kill others with legal guns and addicts kill others to get the next fix.

All drugs, including alcohol can result in the deaths of others through violence and accidents. Guns are the leading cause of suicide in the US.

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #105 on: September 9, 2018, 09:10:20 pm »
People take drugs for many different reasons, people have always taken drugs, people will always take drugs, you can't stop it, the "War on drugs" doesn't and can't work. Therefore the most sensible option is harm reduction, which means either legalising or decriminalising drugs, thereby ensuring an safe supply of known purity and strength. Tax the drugs, use the money raised for treatment and education, and open up new markets thus creating new jobs.

I've often thought that we could have helped the Afgan situation by buying opium from the farmers (instead of trying to destroy their crops).After all the NHS uses morphine which is a refined form of opium.
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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #106 on: September 9, 2018, 09:15:15 pm »
Although other drugs might not be my particular preference, or I think they're ridiculous it seems ludicrous that criminalising people for using any of them is the answer to anything.
-It doesn't help the people using it
-Prohibition only increases criminality
-By not taxing the drugs it starves the government of the very funds needed to run the right health programmes and education

So given it fails on just about every important metric i'd say yes legalising is the only answer
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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #107 on: September 9, 2018, 09:16:05 pm »

There is plenty of evidence that there are less deaths from guns when the gun laws are stricter








On a public health level- legalizing hard drugs is the same as legalizing gun access. It will result in more deaths. Sure, you may save money spent from the public purse overall, but the sad reality is that premature deaths of all types save money, so where do you draw the line? Guns? Hard drugs? Cancer treatments? Palliative surgeries that only add a few months? Intense nursing care of severe brain damage?

What about legalizing euthanasia? For me, I can't see the distinction. You are either all in (save money, but have more deaths), or all out (spend a fortune trying to prevent preventable deaths).


Am I the only one confused ?

(With his gun argument,the rest is total bollocks so needs no more debating)
« Last Edit: September 9, 2018, 09:18:47 pm by WhereAngelsPlay »
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Offline Giono

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #108 on: September 9, 2018, 09:38:07 pm »

There is plenty of evidence that there are less deaths from guns when the gun laws are stricter




There is some evidence to suggest that there might be less harm from all drugs when they are decriminalized. But again I reiterate decriminalization and legalization are not the same thing.



All drugs, including alcohol can result in the deaths of others through violence and accidents. Guns are the leading cause of suicide in the US.

Imagine devoting all the resources that go into the war on drugs...and redirect it to mental health...you’d see a few less suicides. How about a friggin’ war on ptsd?

People don’t kill you so they can afford to get drunk. They will for crack etc.
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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #109 on: September 9, 2018, 09:41:04 pm »
I think decriminalisation is the first step..... then move to legalisation
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #110 on: September 9, 2018, 09:45:44 pm »
There is plenty of evidence that there are less deaths from guns when the gun laws are stricter

Yes. How does that relate to drugs?

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #111 on: September 10, 2018, 11:34:31 pm »
Imagine devoting all the resources that go into the war on drugs...and redirect it to mental health...you’d see a few less suicides. How about a friggin’ war on ptsd?

People don’t kill you so they can afford to get drunk. They will for crack etc.

Most addicts that commit serious crimes are doing so to pay off debts, e.g., they’ve been selling for someone, been nicked (or binged on their supply), then whoever is supplying them will tell them to go and rob a shop, person, house, burn down a house, etc, to repay their debt.

Thus, yeah, legalising drugs would cut down crime by a large proportion, not just by decriminalising the act of using, but reducing the associated crimes.

Taxes, licence fees, etc, would help the NHS and other public services that have to deal with the aftermath anyway (no matter whether legal or illegal). The social and economic benefits are clear, but it’s the political cost that most parties are concerned with.
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Offline CraigDS

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #112 on: September 11, 2018, 07:35:20 am »
Most addicts that commit serious crimes are doing so to pay off debts, e.g., they’ve been selling for someone, been nicked (or binged on their supply), then whoever is supplying them will tell them to go and rob a shop, person, house, burn down a house, etc, to repay their debt.

Thus, yeah, legalising drugs would cut down crime by a large proportion, not just by decriminalising the act of using, but reducing the associated crimes.

Are they suddenly going to be free as well as legal?

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #113 on: September 11, 2018, 08:52:53 am »
I am all for legalization... As long as you sign an affidavit saying you are giving up all rights to state sponsored medical care, you should be free to do whatever you choose.  Abusing dangerous substances like Meth and Heroin will definitely lead to health issues and the need for medical care. Burdening public healthcare with willfully self inflicted afflictions is not fair on taxpayers and genuine patients.

On the other hand, legalizing 'soft' drugs like Cannabis, Kratom and shrooms the is an absolute no brainer. Tens of thousands are rotting in prison for possession of marijuana in the US, while the most dangerous drug of them all, alcohol is freely available everywhere for everyone. There is absolutely no logic to alcohol being legal and cannabis being illegal, apart from protecting the interests of liquor manufacturers. The fact that i can be arrested for consuming cannabis in  the confines of my home, off my own legally earned money, is ludicrously unjust.

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #114 on: September 11, 2018, 09:25:36 am »
Sorry but everyone is allowed health care in the UK.


Should drinkers also have to sign away all rights to health care & would those that do no longer pay tax  ?

« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 09:27:34 am by WhereAngelsPlay »
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #115 on: September 11, 2018, 09:58:00 am »
I am all for legalization... As long as you sign an affidavit saying you are giving up all rights to state sponsored medical care, you should be free to do whatever you choose. 

What about horse riding, hang gliding, surfing, bungee jumping, cave exploring? Hell, what about alcohol and cigarettes?

Online TepidT2O

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #116 on: September 11, 2018, 10:02:02 am »
Drinking and smoking too...
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline "21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #117 on: September 11, 2018, 10:17:04 am »
What about horse riding, hang gliding, surfing, bungee jumping, cave exploring? Hell, what about alcohol and cigarettes?

No comparison between Crystal meth and Tobacco. You can die from ONE dose.  Same with Heroin. These are clearly dangerous substances with heavy health implications.  When you take these substances, you know the risks. 
What about horse riding, hang gliding, surfing, bungee jumping, cave exploring? Hell, what about alcohol and cigarettes?
Alcohol should be illegal anyway. Worst drug on earth and it is perfectly legal.  As a tobacco user, I am fully aware of the risks to my health, despite all the warnings and cautionary messaging from healthcare providers.  I am happy to relinquish any access to free healthcare.

Phuk yoo

Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #118 on: September 11, 2018, 10:31:08 am »
There's no such thing as free health care,those of us that work pay for it,drug users would also be paying for it in the same way that smokers always have.

Cannot believe that you just stated alcohol should be illegal,maybe we should all be tagged and have mandatory drug testing  (including alcohol) with those of us that fail losing our access to oxygen.
My cup, it runneth over, I'll never get my fill

Offline cloggypop

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Re: Legalisation of All Drugs
« Reply #119 on: September 11, 2018, 10:38:17 am »
I am all for legalization... As long as you sign an affidavit saying you are giving up all rights to state sponsored medical care, you should be free to do whatever you choose.  Abusing dangerous substances like Meth and Heroin will definitely lead to health issues and the need for medical care. Burdening public healthcare with willfully self inflicted afflictions is not fair on taxpayers and genuine patients.

On the other hand, legalizing 'soft' drugs like Cannabis, Kratom and shrooms the is an absolute no brainer. Tens of thousands are rotting in prison for possession of marijuana in the US, while the most dangerous drug of them all, alcohol is freely available everywhere for everyone. There is absolutely no logic to alcohol being legal and cannabis being illegal, apart from protecting the interests of liquor manufacturers. The fact that i can be arrested for consuming cannabis in  the confines of my home, off my own legally earned money, is ludicrously unjust.
Yeah right. The sane way to treat addiction is to treat the addict as a patient. Treat the underlying conditions as well as the physical addiction.