Topic: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series - MAY CONTAIN SPOILERS

[Tonyh8su]

Plenty of places you could bleed from without leaving a cut (nose, mouth, genitals etc.), plus did they ever give him a medical examination after finding blood?

Everytime you think you'd clocked something with this you remember a million other things that don't make sense.

I went through a guilty phase this morning then I remembered how massively inconsistent the stories were from Lenk and the other one at the trial.

I feel the exact same as all of this. How I'm seeing this piece of art right now (and this is a piece of art), is that it's really not about without he/they are guilty or not guilty, it's a look at just how corrupt the justice system is America is.

The fact of the matter is Steven Avery was never given a fair trial and never had the chance of a fair trial. This could and should have been declared a mistrial over so many things and it wasn't.

They either knew he did it, couldn't prove it, so planted all this evidence or they wanted to show him who's boss for proving his innocence originally, drawing so much press, changing the law and having the bill named after him and then suing them for 37 million to get rid of him. I dunno man.

[Alan_X]

I'm very much of the opinion that DNA was planted and the key too. However it does seem convenient that Avery had a cut on his finger. If he has no cut then there's no case surely? How could the people involved in the cover up ensure Avery had a cut?? They couldn't.

They didn't need to. If the jury had based their decision on a logical coherent explanation of the facts then they wouldn't have convicted. The cut was a point made by the defence, the prosecution simply had the DNA - they didn't need to prove a cut or how it got there.

And it wasn't a 'cover-up'. One thing that we all need to keep in mind is that this is a real case - we don't know the real 'truth' - only the facts as presented and as available. It's pretty clear that Avery had a bad trial and the case against him was full of shocking errors and inconsistencies. The Manitowoc police had it in for him and there is a face-value case that he was set up.

[RMG]

Spoiler

They also had a car compacter in the yard. Surely that is your first thought straight away after you do the deed? If the murder was pre-meditated like the prosecutor made it out to be. There's holes everywhere in the story.

I actually feel a bit angry at the family of the woman and upset for them at the same time. They must know that Steven Avery didn't really kill their daughter/slister.

[close]

I'd be concerned that we don't know what has really happened to this girl.

The brother who was always being interviewed was coming across as very shady. Like for example in Brendan's case when that cousin started crying and saying she lied to police. For him to come out and say well she's clearly lying and trying to stay loyal to the family, is he not sitting there and thinking they've interviewed kids here and the people interviewing him kept telling them what happened.

Is he not sitting there thinking hang on, they are relying on kids here and judging by what I've seen so far these kids are being given a story. If I were to make a prediction I think that brother knows a lot more than he's letting on.

[stoa]

If I were to make a prediction I think that brother knows a lot more than he's letting on.

I don't think you can say that. He comes across as not a very likeable person. At least, I wouldn't want to have a beer with him. However, what you shouldn't forget is that he was basically just put in front of the camera and had to come up with stuff to say. And probably every day at every session of each trial. And it looks like he was convinced Avery and Dassey were guilty. You could probably have done interviews on the street with loads of people who would have come up with the same stuff...

I feel the exact same as all of this. How I'm seeing this piece of art right now (and this is a piece of art), is that it's really not about without he/they are guilty or not guilty, it's a look at just how corrupt the justice system is America is.

The fact of the matter is Steven Avery was never given a fair trial and never had the chance of a fair trial. This could and should have been declared a mistrial over so many things and it wasn't.

They either knew he did it, couldn't prove it, so planted all this evidence or they wanted to show him who's boss for proving his innocence originally, drawing so much press, changing the law and having the bill named after him and then suing them for 37 million to get rid of him. I dunno man.

And I would agree with that. This series is not about whether they are guilty or not. It is about the system and a case where a lot of things have gone wrong. Especially, in Dassey's case where it seems clear that this was just a not very bright kid bullied by investigators into saying whatever they want him to say.

[owens_2k]

It's amazing how Brendan changed his mind so many times until the investigators got him to say what they wanted. It's quite horrible that all he wanted to do was go home and play PlayStation and has been dragged into all this. How the jury wasn't shown how he was pressured into drawing those pictures is beyond me. And don't get me started on that slimey media hungry attorney of his (Len was it?)

Lenk of the county department was defo dodgey too with his conflicting statements saying which time he arrived at the scene. As the defence stated its the different of nearly 5 hours. Or broad daylight/pitch black.

[RMG]

I don't think you can say that. He comes across as not a very likeable person. At least, I wouldn't want to have a beer with him. However, what you shouldn't forget is that he was basically just put in front of the camera and had to come up with stuff to say. And probably every day at every session of each trial. And it looks like he was convinced Avery and Dassey were guilty. You could probably have done interviews on the street with loads of people who would have come up with the same stuff...

He was very keen to speak to them, wouldn't surprise me if he was hand picked to go in front of the media.

If I recall correctly when Avery is being sentenced that brother says a few words. Obviously upset speaking about his sister and God and then before he finishes all of a sudden he sounds and looks completely fine.

Be interesting to know what the parents and other brother thinks.

[saoirse08]

This series is not about whether they are guilty or not. It is about the system and a case where a lot of things have gone wrong. Especially, in Dassey's case where it seems clear that this was just a not very bright kid bullied by investigators into saying whatever they want him to say.

Agree, I think this case is highly emblematic, exposing in great detail the problems with the American criminal justice system. We all know about these things from a range of sources over the years, but this documentary highlights, quite starkly, the class basis of the justice system in US. If you are poor, ill educated, or from the wrong side of the tracks, if you happen to be handed a really shit public defender, then you are, in short, fucked. I mean, Len Kachinsky was so shit at defending he could have taken his place in Liverpool's 2013/14 title-chasing back four.

One thing that strikes me watching cases like this, is where do you draw the line between freedom of speech, sub judice and the right to a fair trial? I think, as it currently stands in the US, with trial by cable, freedom of speech (entertaining the masses - "Murder is hot right now!") seems to trump all other concerns. The prosecution know this and appear to chuck enough shit around during the build up to a trial, in the hope that some of it sticks. With Avery & Dassey this tactic appears to have worked.

However, I don't think the world is entirely without hope, especially when I see the likes of Dean Strang - a man of serious gravitas and, what appears to be from the outside at least, a sound moral compass. Indeed, all the people defending Avery over the course of the two cases, seemed to be sound enough human beings. Kratz, Kachinsky and O'Kelly, on the other hand, come across as some of the most repellent individuals you are likely to meet.

[UntouchableLuis]

The most insane bit of this was that detective (was he?) that was 'representing' Brendan but called the Averys pure evil and that they needed to end the gene pool...the one that started crying over the blue ribbon. Actually insane.

Personally there seems sometging dodgy about the whole family of Teresa - no tears when graphic description of her 'mutilation' was read out time and time again? Though I guess they may have just been so shocked and numb? Who knows.

The truth will hopefully come out one day. It's just crazy that Avery would spend 18 years in jail for something he didn't do, come out and be free and then commit this murder. Fair play to him for never once pretending he did the original crime he went away for, must have taken some bloody willpower that.

Brendan Dassey has been in jail now for 10 years. Think about that - there's no fucking way he was any part of this.

[Alan_X]

I'd be concerned that we don't know what has really happened to this girl.

The brother who was always being interviewed was coming across as very shady. Like for example in Brendan's case when that cousin started crying and saying she lied to police. For him to come out and say well she's clearly lying and trying to stay loyal to the family, is he not sitting there and thinking they've interviewed kids here and the people interviewing him kept telling them what happened.

Is he not sitting there thinking hang on, they are relying on kids here and judging by what I've seen so far these kids are being given a story. If I were to make a prediction I think that brother knows a lot more than he's letting on.

Of course he isn't thinking that. He's a young, not very well informed, white, middle class young man who believes in the local police and has no reason to think anything other than the white trash family have done what white trash families do. In both cases (the rape and the murder) the fetishisation of 'good white folks' - clean living pillars of the community - versus the poor and poorly educated was evident.

And you aren't going to know what 'really happened'. This is real life. There won't be a behind the scenes show that explains all the loose ends. And there's no point predicting anything because the brother is not a suspect and is never going to be in that town.

The most interesting potential suspect was the room-mate who under any other circumstances would have been at or near the top of the list. But the fact is they wanted Avery and they got him so none of the other suspects were investigated and the moment has passed.

[Igor Tripod Biscan]

Just read about Anonymous saying they have evidence to prove Averys innocence

[Alan_X]

Just read about Anonymous saying they have evidence to prove Averys innocence

This is a serious case and they could do as much damage as good if they get involved. if it's something like phone records from the police department, they could render them unusable in a trial if they're illegally obtained for example. The Wisconsin justice system has had every opportunity to review the case and there is already more than enough reasons to do so but they have chosen to shut it down every time.

If they have any real evidence they need to pass it to someone who knows what to do with it.

[saoirse08]

The most insane bit of this was that detective (was he?) that was 'representing' Brendan but called the Averys pure evil and that they needed to end the gene pool...the one that started crying over the blue ribbon. Actually insane.

Personally there seems sometging dodgy about the whole family of Teresa - no tears when graphic description of her 'mutilation' was read out time and time again? Though I guess they may have just been so shocked and numb? Who knows.

The truth will hopefully come out one day. It's just crazy that Avery would spend 18 years in jail for something he didn't do, come out and be free and then commit this murder. Fair play to him for never once pretending he did the original crime he went away for, must have taken some bloody willpower that.

Brendan Dassey has been in jail now for 10 years. Think about that - there's no fucking way he was any part of this.

He was an 'investigator' working for Len Kachinsky. Who Kachinsky was working on behalf, the jury is still out on that one...He defo wasn't working on behalf of Brendan Dassey! This aspect of this case stinks to fuck, I have to say. 

[Phil M]

Just read about Anonymous saying they have evidence to prove Averys innocence

As far as I'm aware this has not been corroborated by anonymous themselves.
As far as I can see, so far it's more likely this is someone acting on their behalf, perhaps hoaxing, so I wouldn't get your hopes up in that regard.

[rafathegaffa83]

He was an 'investigator' working for Len Kachinsky. Who Kachinsky was working on behalf, the jury is still out on that one...He defo wasn't working on behalf of Brendan Dassey! This aspect of this case stinks to fuck, I have to say. 

Michael O'Reilly. Wasnt he originally brought in re: a polygraph? O'Reilly breaking down over a ribbon in a video while reading his own inflammatory "one branch" email was bizarre as hell. Right up there with the "murder is hot" comment in terms of truly bizarre juxtapositions in this case.

[gerrardsarmy]

Agree, I think this case is highly emblematic, exposing in great detail the problems with the American criminal justice system. We all know about these things from a range of sources over the years, but this documentary highlights, quite starkly, the class basis of the justice system in US. If you are poor, ill educated, or from the wrong side of the tracks, if you happen to be handed a really shit public defender, then you are, in short, fucked. 

There's part of the trial documents I read that inadvertently sums this up quite well.

The lawyers of Steven Avery were arguing against the use of his recorded phone calls in jail.

Defense attorneys Dean Strang and Jerome Buting argue the conversations of a wealthy man charged with similar crimes wouldn't have been recorded because he would have had enough money to make bail.

[saoirse08]

Michael O'Reilly. Wasnt he originally brought in re: a polygraph? O'Reilly breaking down over a ribbon in a video while reading his own inflammatory "one branch" email was bizarre as hell. Right up there with the "murder is hot" comment in terms of truly bizarre juxtapositions in this case.

Michael O'Kelly, i think his name is. Yeah, very odd behaviour in Dassey's trial. Thought he was shady throughout. I think I remember him talking with the lead investigators in and around the court - Fassbender and the other guy. All looked far too cosy. And how quick was he to call the cops to come to the detention centre and question Brendan, once he had elicited a confession from him? He was supposedly a polygrapah expert, but seemed to only be interested in coercing a confession from Brendan.

Also, one thing that hasn't been mentioned, perhaps because it was so, so odd and so obvious: what the fuck were Manitowoc County Sheriff’s Department doing searching Avery's residence in the first place? Seriously, this was a massive breach of conflict of interests, bearing in mind Avery is suing them. And, quiet remarkably, it always appears that Manitowoc County officers find the most damning evidence against Avery. That the cops from the neighbouring county had to supervise them while they were on sight says everything you need to know. On the 7th search of Avery's home - with the two officer who had most to lose by being sued by Avery - they magically finding the key to Teresa's car. Sans her DNA, but with Steven Avery's all over it. Laughable.

[red_Mark1980]

I honestly dont know what reasonable doubt means.

I've been to Wisconsin, lovely people. But for them all to say guilty after 7 (i think that's what his lawyer said) initially saying not guilty is worrying.

The cop calling in Theresas license plate troubles me.

[HighSix]

Just read about Anonymous saying they have evidence to prove Averys innocence

Actually innocent or just should not have been convicted through dodgy evidence? Its a huge call for them to get involved with the nature of the crime if the latter.

[Igor Tripod Biscan]

Not entirely clear the nature but it relates to phone records and some other stuff

As mentioned above, if it is true or they have some evidence gained through illegal means, doubt how serious it could be taken given the judicial system

Plus - not clear why they would publicise it before doing something with it

[Phil M]

Tonnes of discussion here: https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/

[Phil M]

Spoiler

— Past criminal activity also included threatening a female relative at gunpoint.

This is in the documentary. Episode one.

— In the months leading up to Halbach’s disappearance, Avery had called Auto Trader several times and always specifically requested Halbach to come out and take the photos.

She had been to the Avery property six times between June 2005 and October 31st.

Is it out of the realms of possibility for him to request the same photographer as had been there previously? I don't think so.

Source: http://chippewa.com/news/victim-s-cousin-tells-of-finding-vehicle-in-avery-salvage/article_fb32d5b4-4569-53de-bb0c-c6e2beccd56e.html

As for the towel incident -- that came up due to testimony from Dawn Pliszka who was an Auto Trader receptionist and wasn't admissible in the trial. And it wasn't left out of the trial because it was too inflammatory - it was inadmissible because it was too sketchy.

Source: http://chippewa.com/news/victim-s-cousin-tells-of-finding-vehicle-in-avery-salvage/article_fb32d5b4-4569-53de-bb0c-c6e2beccd56e.html

If it is true, it's certianly strange. But it doesn't sound to me like he was "obsessed" with her.

— On the day that Halbach went missing, Avery had called her three times, twice from a *67 number to hide his identity.

Teresa called Avery and requested him to call her back, so I assume that accounts for one of the calls. (From Day 2 Transcripts from Dassey Trial)

The star 67 calls are interesting. It appears the prosecution used this as evidence that he "lured" Teresa to the property under a false name (The name of his sister - who the van belonged to).

Source - http://host.madison.com/news/local/calls-made-from-avery-s-phone-to-halbach-prosecutors-say/article_e120a640-3769-5d22-b7b8-3bf2bdff3e7f.html

If that is the case, it makes no sense to request her in the first place if he was then going to hide his identity in order to kill her, everyone knew full well that she was going to be there.

— The bullet with Halbach’s DNA on it came from Avery’s gun, which always hung above his bed.

I did read somewhere that the bullet was proved to be from a 22 but that it couldn't be traced to Steven's gun specifically. There were other people on the property who also owned 22's. I'll try and find links.

Secondly, this bullet was found after the 'confession' of Brendan Dassey, in suspicious circumstances, by a person who wasn't supposed to be involved in the investigation. And the DNA evidence on it would have normally been inconclusive because the analyst botched the controls.

— Here’s the piece of evidence that was presented at trial but not in the series that I find most convincing: In Dassey’s illegally obtained statement, Dassey stated that he helped Avery moved the RAV4 into the junkyard and that Avery had lifted the hood and removed the battery cable. Even if you believe that the blood in Halbach’s car was planted by the cops (as I do), there was also non-blood DNA evidence on the hood latch. I don’t believe the police would plant — or know to plant — that evidence.

As for the 'sweat' DNA -- this was found AFTER the testimony of Brendan Dassey.

SOURCE: Brendan Dassey's Trial, Day 1 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/c9ow4lwzec007mi/dassey_4_16_07.pdf?dl=0

And this piece of information was also first provided to Dassey through Fassbender and Weigert and NOT Brendan.

SOURCE: http://convolutedbrian.com.s3.amazonaws.com/dassey/01Mar2006/01Mar2006Transcript.pdf

OR

https://www.dropbox.com/s/uu07xwofjc4zc37/Transcript%20-%20March%201%2C%202006.pdf?dl=0
(PAGE 78)

Frankly, any DNA evidence that is claimed to be found is highly compromised in my opinion. This apparent DNA on the hood was found in April -- months after the car was found.

SOURCE: Brendan Dassey's Trial, Day 2 - Pages 25, 125, 144 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/s4jyyith9lwpstx/dassey_4_17_07.pdf?dl=0

And this DNA evidence was found. But no fingerprints were found in any part of the car???

[close]

You might find this interesting:

Here are 14 other things that you also may not have heard yet:

http://onmilwaukee.com/movies/articles/evidenceagainstavery.html

http://onmilwaukee.com/movies/articles/makingamurdereralternativesuspects.html

[B0151?]

The fact he's watched porn and is alleged to have worn just a towel before is proof enough for me. Can't understand why they didn't include those startling pieces of 'evidence' in the doc.

[red_Mark1980]

The fact he's watched porn and is alleged to have worn just a towel before is proof enough for me. Can't understand why they didn't include those startling pieces of 'evidence' in the doc.

Never going to wear a towel again me

[Phil M]

The fact he's watched porn and is alleged to have worn just a towel before is proof enough for me.

The towel incident you're referencing was mentioned in the series.

[Kashinoda]

Filmmakers Fire Back at Prosecutor: ‘He’s Not Entitled to His Own Facts’

http://www.thewrap.com/making-a-murderer-filmmakers-fire-back-at-prosecutor-hes-not-entitled-to-his-own-facts/

[rafathegaffa83]

Michael O'Kelly, i think his name is. Yeah, very odd behaviour in Dassey's trial. Thought he was shady throughout. I think I remember him talking with the lead investigators in and around the court - Fassbender and the other guy. All looked far too cosy. And how quick was he to call the cops to come to the detention centre and question Brendan, once he had elicited a confession from him? He was supposedly a polygrapah expert, but seemed to only be interested in coercing a confession from Brendan.

Also, one thing that hasn't been mentioned, perhaps because it was so, so odd and so obvious: what the fuck were Manitowoc County Sheriff’s Department doing searching Avery's residence in the first place? Seriously, this was a massive breach of conflict of interests, bearing in mind Avery is suing them. And, quiet remarkably, it always appears that Manitowoc County officers find the most damning evidence against Avery. That the cops from the neighbouring county had to supervise them while they were on sight says everything you need to know. On the 7th search of Avery's home - with the two officer who had most to lose by being sued by Avery - they magically finding the key to Teresa's car. Sans her DNA, but with Steven Avery's all over it. Laughable.

You're right, Michael O'Kelly is his name. Some good points there

[B0151?]

It's one of the '14 pieces of troubling evidence Netflix' "Making a Murderer" left out' according to one of your links 

[Phil M]

Also, one thing that hasn't been mentioned, perhaps because it was so, so odd and so obvious: what the fuck were Manitowoc County Sheriff’s Department doing searching Avery's residence in the first place?

Because Teresa Halbach was scheduled to visit the Avery residence on the day when she went missing so logic would suggest that it would make sense checking out a location she was supposed to have visited.

[stoa]

One thing that strikes me watching cases like this, is where do you draw the line between freedom of speech, sub judice and the right to a fair trial? I think, as it currently stands in the US, with trial by cable, freedom of speech (entertaining the masses - "Murder is hot right now!") seems to trump all other concerns. The prosecution know this and appear to chuck enough shit around during the build up to a trial, in the hope that some of it sticks. With Avery & Dassey this tactic appears to have worked.

It worked brilliantly in my view. One of the shocking parts of the series was the live press conference Kratz and someone else (the sheriff?) did. The one when Kratz says at the start that kids who might be watching should switch off their TVs, because he'd give a graphic description of what happened to Teresa Halbach. It seems most of the things he said at that time were later not even used in the trial against Avery, because they had no evidence for them (like Halbach being tied up on the bed in the trailer, being raped there and having her throat cut). That's a huge issue in my mind, because it basically taints the whole thing from the start. News stations will run a story like that for days. They'll show him saying those things over and over again. They'll get in experts to talk about how a person could do something like that. They'll go out and ask people on the streets whether they're afraid something like that could happen to them... So, right from the beginning Avery is painted as some kind of monster (which he might well be, but there's still no evidence to support that).

[RMG]

The fact he's watched porn and is alleged to have worn just a towel before is proof enough for me. Can't understand why they didn't include those startling pieces of 'evidence' in the doc.

Alleged.

[RMG]

Of course he isn't thinking that. He's a young, not very well informed, white, middle class young man who believes in the local police and has no reason to think anything other than the white trash family have done what white trash families do. In both cases (the rape and the murder) the fetishisation of 'good white folks' - clean living pillars of the community - versus the poor and poorly educated was evident.

And you aren't going to know what 'really happened'. This is real life. There won't be a behind the scenes show that explains all the loose ends. And there's no point predicting anything because the brother is not a suspect and is never going to be in that town.

The most interesting potential suspect was the room-mate who under any other circumstances would have been at or near the top of the list. But the fact is they wanted Avery and they got him so none of the other suspects were investigated and the moment has passed.

So you didn't think it was odd how he went from sobbing to fine in his speech just before Avery was being sentenced?

[red_Mark1980]

So you didn't think it was odd how he went from sobbing to fine in his speech just before Avery was being sentenced?

I thought he was very odd. There's no reason for him to give any interviews. The whole think was odd.

[johnsmithlfc]

Just finished episode 4.....holy shit!!
The blood being taken from vial, hypodermic needle etc.
Just about to start ep 5 now.

This is just incredible viewing.

[Phil M]

It's one of the '14 pieces of troubling evidence Netflix' "Making a Murderer" left out' according to one of your links 

They went into more detail on it but it was mentioned.

[gerrardsarmy]

What needs to be taken into account with this documentary - is that the film makers have been clear that it is not a 'whodunnit'. The Avery case is the case that is used to frame larger problems with the American justice system.

1. Police Conduct - I firmly believe that evidence was planted. Major evidence was found by investigators who, upon admitting they had a conflict of interest, said they would not be involved in the investigation aside from basic resources. And this evidence showed up after multiple searches. (It's noted in the documentary that the police had control of the property for 8 days and searched it 18!!! times)

And this is one small County among many in the state of Wisconsin. Which is only one state among fifty...

2. The erosion and elimination of the presumption of innocence - The prosecution's press conference after the Dassey 'confession' describing the alleged murder in detail was absolutely shameful. Then they drop the charges which they placed after this confession - essentially admitting that they didn't have the evidence to back up these claims.

But the damage was done - they've tainted the minds of the people in the county. This brought about something else that confused me; they moved the trial from Manitowoc County, which from my understanding is done to get a jury from a different place in order to try and mitigate any bias that arises through prior knowledge of the case. But then they still choose the jury from Manitowoc County!!! How the fuck does this happen? Now couple this with Kratz and the prosecution parading information that they couldn't prove all over the TV -- it ABSOLUTELY denied Avery his right to a fair trial.

3. The case of Brendan Dassey - Arguably the more shameful of the two. If the prosecution on this case believe he is guilty of this crime or deserved to be convicted, they are unfit for public service. But they can't convict Avery and then turn around and disregard Dassey. They have to take him to trial.

There was a link before which was saying that if you read the 21 page transcript between Michael O'Kelly and Brendan Dassey, it doesn't look like O'Kelly is leading Dassey into the answers that he is giving. Go and read the interrogation between Fassbender, Wiegert, and Dassey. (Remember - the O'Kelly stuff came after the original coerced confession he gave to Fassbender and Weigert, then he is interrogated by them again after the O'Kelly incident WITHOUT A FUCKING ATTORNEY!!!!!!!!! and gives them absolute crap)

This man was supposed to be part of a team that was DEFENDING him. Then he is colluding with the prosecution. He's on the stand reading his own emails how the Avery family is evil and they're a one branch family tree that needs to be cut down. Then he's crying over the blue ribbon. Give. Me. A. Fucking. Spell.

I'm not even going to go into Len Kachinsky - human filth.

Again, did not have a fair chance. Poor people lose.


P.s. I'm from Australia and I'm no expert and I'm sure it happens but I can't think of any high profile wrongful convictions like America has. There's plenty of documentaries which illustrate that America just seems to produce these miscarriages of justice more regularly. Are there any high profile instances in the UK?

[Anywhichwayicant]

Watching porn and wearing a towel while answering the door?

I hope Crosby Nick doesn't report me.

[Phil M]

What needs to be taken into account with this documentary - is that the film makers have been clear that it is not a 'whodunnit'. The Avery case is the case that is used to frame larger problems with the American justice system.

Again, did not have a fair chance. Poor people lose.

Out of interest do you believe Steven Avery is completely innocent of the murder of Ms Halbach?

[gerrardsarmy]

Out of interest do you believe Steven Avery is completely innocent of the murder of Ms Halbach?

I'm still somewhat ambivalent on Avery. If I had to choose though, I'd say I believe he is innocent.

[red_Mark1980]

Out of interest do you believe Steven Avery is completely innocent of the murder of Ms Halbach?

Is it possible to answer? I know I'd have trouble convicting him based on the evidence presented.
Disregard all of Brendans confessions and assume Avery acted alone and the 'scene' Brendan describes in Averys bedroom is complete fabrication.

His blood in her car (and hers I believe) - Why? Why put her body in her car (presumably after cutting or killing her in his garage). So he kills her in his garage (later removing ALL blood and evidence of here being there but leaving the shell casings and bullet).

Puts her body in her car (leaving his and her blood in there) - to what end. Does he think about driving somewhere else to burn the body then think better of it?

He burns her body right behind his house and hides her SUV in his junkyard covered in branches (you know so no-one will find it).

It's all a little odd - he's removed any evidence of her ever being in his house (apart from the key) but his DNA is found all over his garage.

As for the member of the Sheriff department mysteriously calling in Halbachs license plate days before it's found in that huge salvage yard  - well that's just odd isn't it?

I can't say he's 100% innocent because of the shoddy and dodgy activity of the Sheriff and the prosecution, I sure as hell can't say he's 100% guilty.

[Agger]

Finished this last night. 

Spoiler

Utterly depressing. I have no idea how you survive this kind of injustice and treatment. I don't think they were guilty and I definitely don't think there was enough evidence to convict them, and plenty of stuff that made the police department look sketchy. It stinks real bad.

Dean Strang and Jerry Buting are fucking boss, though.

[close]