Author Topic: Lionel Messi  (Read 919204 times)

Offline owens_2k

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7440 on: October 11, 2017, 10:20:54 am »
I'm gutted for football that Argentina didnt win the WC final against Germany. It will always be held against Messi. Greatest ever with or without a world cup, and what a performance last night!

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7441 on: October 11, 2017, 11:00:41 am »
GOAT
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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7442 on: October 11, 2017, 11:02:54 am »
GOAT doing what he does best

Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7443 on: October 11, 2017, 11:06:28 am »
He didn't owe Argentina anything before last night, he was already their record goalscorer and 3rd highest cap winner of all time but in true Messi fashion he dragged them back from the brink.

Offline SMASHerano

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7444 on: October 11, 2017, 11:14:14 am »
He didn't owe Argentina anything before last night, he was already their record goalscorer and 3rd highest cap winner of all time but in true Messi fashion he dragged them back from the brink.

I hope Sampaoli uses those 8 months to mould Argentina into a team. They can not win the WC like this

Offline gravy red

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7445 on: October 11, 2017, 11:15:49 am »

[/quote]
I'm gutted for football that Argentina didnt win the WC final against Germany. It will always be held against Messi. Greatest ever with or without a world cup, and what a performance last night!

I understand (and agree) with what your saying, but this is Sport for us, these things do happen (in the past and the future).

Everybody that loves football will always say it's a shame Our own Stevie G never never won the league with us (and he could of gone to other clubs to try and do so), but he stayed,as a result he never did win the league...But these players are a special breed and only come along every now and again, so we need to embrace the football they bring to our lives and enjoy the moments of glory and special times and if they don't go on to win a World cup (in Messi's Case) does it really mean they didn't achieve at the top at THEIR game (club or national team)?

He is a special talent to grace a football pitch.

Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7446 on: October 11, 2017, 11:21:05 am »
I hope Sampaoli uses those 8 months to mould Argentina into a team. They can not win the WC like this

I agree, I don't think they're good enough. Their defence and midfield just aren't up to standard and would get trampled on by teams like Brazil and Germany.

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7447 on: October 11, 2017, 11:46:56 am »
saw the hat trick this morning

you beautiful ridiculous bastard lionel!
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Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7448 on: October 11, 2017, 11:58:55 am »
Best player I've seen in my lifetime. Cristiano is amazing too but the only people still sucking his dick and calling him the best player are the Mancs in the English speaking media. Even the Spanish league watchers including Real fans don't seem to think he's as good as Messi. 
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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7449 on: October 11, 2017, 12:03:56 pm »
i think  the Ronaldo Messi comparisons are tiresome now

and have been for years

just enjoy both
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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7450 on: October 11, 2017, 12:41:52 pm »
Absolute phenomenon is Messi. Part of me really wants to see the Argies win the WC and for Messi to boss the tournament. This man deserves to mentioned in the same breath as Pele and Maradona.

Different level to anyone else out there. Not only because of his sheer robotic output, but because of his style and viewing pleasure he gives to the fans. In my lifetime I've only enjoyed watching one player more than Messi ... John Barnes!
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Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7451 on: October 11, 2017, 12:49:12 pm »
Absolute phenomenon is Messi. Part of me really wants to see the Argies win the WC and for Messi to boss the tournament. This man deserves to mentioned in the same breath as Pele and Maradona.

I don't even think he needs to win the WC, he just needs to boss the tournament, especially the knockouts, to be considered the GOAT by me. If he does what Baggio did in the '94 knockouts or Zidane in '06 that'll be enough for me. Just to be able to see him in those types of games and be able to honestly say he actually looks like the best player in the world, which he hasn't done in his last 6 and a bit WC knockout games. Hopefully 7th, 8th, 9th or 10th time lucky in 2018. There'll be no question marks then about his ability to play to his level when under the most intense pressure and out of his club comfort zone, the same way the other greats managed to do.

Offline bird_lfc

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7452 on: October 11, 2017, 12:56:39 pm »
I know they struggled to qualify , but is there any legit chance of Argentina winning the whole thing next year?

Would be great for him to do not go down as the ‘greatest ever player who hasn’t won a world cup’

Offline thelinnen

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7453 on: October 11, 2017, 01:04:07 pm »
I don't understand the World Cup argument, to me the Champions League is the highest honour a player can win. There's nowhere to hide over two legged ties against quality teams and Messi has proved himself on that stage several times.
Then in the midddle out pops a smiling glen johnson pulling up his jersey to reveal a t-shirt of suarez with a text saying. "OUR SUAREZ IS A FRIEND TO ALL COLOURS!"

Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7454 on: October 11, 2017, 01:05:44 pm »
I don't understand the World Cup argument, to me the Champions League is the highest honour a player can win. There's nowhere to hide over two legged ties against quality teams and Messi has proved himself on that stage several times.

Agree. The Champions League is harder to win than the World Cup.

Offline thelinnen

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7455 on: October 11, 2017, 01:07:05 pm »
Agree. The Champions League is harder to win than the World Cup.
Case in point that Messi could've had a World Cup winners medal last time out without playing particularly brilliant.
Then in the midddle out pops a smiling glen johnson pulling up his jersey to reveal a t-shirt of suarez with a text saying. "OUR SUAREZ IS A FRIEND TO ALL COLOURS!"

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7456 on: October 11, 2017, 01:10:40 pm »
I don't understand the World Cup argument, to me the Champions League is the highest honour a player can win. There's nowhere to hide over two legged ties against quality teams and Messi has proved himself on that stage several times.

It's a different type of test isn't it. More about dealing with the pressure than the technical side of it. Most people on here probably wont agree with this ("we're not English, we're Scouse" etc), but for most of the world playing for your country is the ultimate honour - it certainly is for Messi. It brings about a different type of mental pressure when its so important to you.

Besides, if it was so much easier than CL, why does Messi look like the best player in the world when playing in the CL, but he doesn't look anywhere near it when playing in World Cup knockouts? It's certainly not down to lack of effort in his part.

For some people (me included) it would be good for the GOAT to be able to pass both tests.

Offline Skeeve

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7457 on: October 11, 2017, 01:11:13 pm »
I'm gutted for football that Argentina didnt win the WC final against Germany. It will always be held against Messi. Greatest ever with or without a world cup, and what a performance last night!

Why gutted for football, it needs it's stars but it also needs really great teams just as much and to imply it was lessened by the latter deservedly winning the competition at the expense of the former is ludicrous.

Offline thelinnen

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7458 on: October 11, 2017, 01:18:38 pm »
It's a different type of test isn't it. More about dealing with the pressure than the technical side of it. Most people on here probably wont agree with this ("we're not English, we're Scouse" etc), but for most of the world playing for your country is the ultimate honour - it certainly is for Messi. It brings about a different type of mental pressure when its so important to you.

Besides, if it was so much easier than CL, why does Messi look like the best player in the world when playing in the CL, but he doesn't look anywhere near it when playing in World Cup knockouts? It's certainly not down to lack of effort in his part.

For some people (me included) it would be good for the GOAT to be able to pass both tests.
That's not unique to Messi, only working with a group of players for a couple of months a year will result in lower quality performances. If Messi played a season for Argentina he would put in similar performances to at Barcelona.

Also fatigue is a big problem these days.
Then in the midddle out pops a smiling glen johnson pulling up his jersey to reveal a t-shirt of suarez with a text saying. "OUR SUAREZ IS A FRIEND TO ALL COLOURS!"

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7459 on: October 11, 2017, 01:22:33 pm »
That's not unique to Messi, only working with a group of players for a couple of months a year will result in lower quality performances. If Messi played a season for Argentina he would put in similar performances to at Barcelona.


I think all the other greats were in the same boat, i.e. not being able to play with their national team mates for a whole season. But somehow players like Pele, Maradona, Beckenbaur, El Fenomeno, Baggio, Zidane, etc, still managed to play to their usual high standard in those types of games when playing for the national teams.

Offline thelinnen

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7460 on: October 11, 2017, 01:30:20 pm »
I think all the other greats were in the same boat, i.e. not being able to play with their national team mates for a whole season. But somehow players like Pele, Maradona, Beckenbaur, El Fenomeno, Baggio, Zidane, etc, still managed to play to their usual high standard in those types of games when playing for the national teams.
I doubt it's possible for an exceptional player like Maradona to ever drag an ordinary team to win the World Cup again. Even then Zidane had far better players around him than Messi has ever had for Argentina.

I'd put it down to fatigue though, the World Cup is an afterthought to a gruelling club season nowadays.
Then in the midddle out pops a smiling glen johnson pulling up his jersey to reveal a t-shirt of suarez with a text saying. "OUR SUAREZ IS A FRIEND TO ALL COLOURS!"

Offline Antoine Lavoisier

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7461 on: October 11, 2017, 01:37:55 pm »
Just been reading the first page of this thread.

That's it.
And in short, I was afraid

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7462 on: October 11, 2017, 01:38:03 pm »
I doubt it's possible for an exceptional player like Maradona to ever drag an ordinary team to win the World Cup again. Even then Zidane had far better players around him than Messi has ever had for Argentina.

I wouldn't say far better, Messi's had some unbelievably good Argentina teammates over the years.

I'd put it down to fatigue though, the World Cup is an afterthought to a gruelling club season nowadays.

I remember someone on here saying similar on these hallowed pages not too long ago (seems to be a recurring conversation!). I put it to him that:

a) surely everyone's tired then, so if the midfielders and defenders trying to stop you are equally fatigued surely it cancels out?

and more importantly,

b) why, in recent years, has Muller been his usual workhorse self in 2010 & 2014 yet still been able to play to his really high level in July? Ditto Griezmann in 2016?


I didn't get a reply.

For the record, I'd love Messi to 'do' it in the business end of a World Cup, I really enjoying seeing the best players light up the big occasions.

Offline thelinnen

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7463 on: October 11, 2017, 01:45:41 pm »
I wouldn't say far better, Messi's had some unbelievably good Argentina teammates over the years.

I remember someone on here saying similar on these hallowed pages not too long ago (seems to be a recurring conversation!). I put it to him that:

a) surely everyone's tired then, so if the midfielders and defenders trying to stop you are equally fatigued surely it cancels out?

and more importantly,

b) why, in recent years, has Muller been his usual workhorse self in 2010 & 2014 yet still been able to play to his really high level in July? Ditto Griezmann in 2016?


I didn't get a reply.

For the record, I'd love Messi to 'do' it in the business end of a World Cup, I really enjoying seeing the best players light up the big occasions.
France had arguably one of the greatest World Cup teams ever assembled during Zidane's career.

I can't answer your second point, I'm not a sports scientist. What I can see though is that club football has become far more intensive over the last 20 or 30 years as more and more money has been pumped into it. It has definitely affected the overall performances of players at summer international tournaments.

It's a good enough reason for Jurgen Klopp so I'll agree with him, as such Muller's lack of fatigue may be due to Germany's month long winter break.
Then in the midddle out pops a smiling glen johnson pulling up his jersey to reveal a t-shirt of suarez with a text saying. "OUR SUAREZ IS A FRIEND TO ALL COLOURS!"

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7464 on: October 11, 2017, 02:09:33 pm »
France had arguably one of the greatest World Cup teams ever assembled during Zidane's career.

Hmmmm. In '98 was a good (not exceptional) keeper, an exceptional defence, a good solid midfield and a below average attack (Giuvarc'h).

In '06 the keeper was the same (but in decline), defence wasn't nearly as good as '98, midfield was better though (don't forget Vieira was past it by that point and Ribery was pre-it), strikeforce was much better but Henry was never close to being as good for France as he was for club (bit like you-know-who I guess in that regards).

You just need to look at what that collection of players managed to do in 2002 when ZZ wasn't there.

Without Zidane they were a good team, just like one of a small handful of good teams you get in every tournament. It was Zidane that made them a great team.

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7465 on: October 11, 2017, 02:14:09 pm »
i think  the Ronaldo Messi comparisons are tiresome now

and have been for years

just enjoy both

I only enjoy Messi. I accept Ronaldo is very efficient at what he does, but I get nothing out of watching him whereas I'd pay to watch Messi knock a ball off a wall.

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7466 on: October 11, 2017, 02:16:02 pm »
i think  the Ronaldo Messi comparisons are tiresome now

and have been for years

just enjoy both

Yeah they are, its easy. Messi.
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Offline SamAteTheRedAcid

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7467 on: October 11, 2017, 02:17:28 pm »
I only enjoy Messi. I accept Ronaldo is very efficient at what he does, but I get nothing out of watching him whereas I'd pay to watch Messi knock a ball off a wall.

Same here.

Ronaldo is ruthlessly efficient. But for me, there's no magic. Ronaldinho, Cruyff, Maradona, Eusebio, Messi - magicians. Thats what I like.
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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7468 on: October 11, 2017, 02:35:40 pm »
Same here.

Ronaldo is ruthlessly efficient. But for me, there's no magic. Ronaldinho, Cruyff, Maradona, Eusebio, Messi - magicians. Thats what I like.

This is the truth. Plus Ronaldo is just so damn annoying - his pouting, his face, his arrogant statements (even though behind closed doors he apparently does great charitable work and is a decent bloke). Ronaldo will never have the affection. But he is a true great of the game and has sealed his place in the pantheon of the greats. He has done that through sheer miraculous output.

Unfortunately for him and his legacy, he was born in a generation where there was a player always that bit better and more captivating for him.
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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7469 on: October 11, 2017, 02:37:50 pm »
Pointless Messi v Ronaldo debate no. 6546546546515 has broken out.
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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7470 on: October 11, 2017, 02:41:25 pm »
Pointless Messi v Ronaldo debate no. 6546546546515 has broken out.

I think we will arrive at the point very quickly.

Messi is better. Also, Cronaldo is a c*nt.

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7471 on: October 11, 2017, 03:54:09 pm »
Graham Hunter summed it up perfectly when he was asked a while back the usual question (probably for the 1000th time), about who is the better player. His answer was brilliant.  I'm paraphrasing but it was "They are on a very similar level. when they both get the ball their immediate thought is how to get this ball into the back of the net, the only difference is, Messi doesn't care who puts it there, and that's why he is the better player"
can't say it much better than that.

Offline LFCStephen

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7472 on: October 11, 2017, 03:56:10 pm »
We are getting to a stage where you will not be allowed any opinion that doesn't think he is the best that's ever done it. He is that good but in order to put a stamp on this he needs international success.

Well he's given Argentina and himself one massive chance with that Hattrick last night 👌

Offline SamAteTheRedAcid

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7473 on: October 11, 2017, 05:29:56 pm »
Here he is about to take on Stoke on the fabled wet Wednesday winter night at the Brittania:

get thee to the library before the c*nts close it down

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Offline Xxavi

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7474 on: October 11, 2017, 06:52:47 pm »
It's a different type of test isn't it. More about dealing with the pressure than the technical side of it. Most people on here probably wont agree with this ("we're not English, we're Scouse" etc), but for most of the world playing for your country is the ultimate honour - it certainly is for Messi. It brings about a different type of mental pressure when its so important to you.

Besides, if it was so much easier than CL, why does Messi look like the best player in the world when playing in the CL, but he doesn't look anywhere near it when playing in World Cup knockouts? It's certainly not down to lack of effort in his part.

For some people (me included) it would be good for the GOAT to be able to pass both tests.
Well, ask yourself the opposite question. What if Messi had won the World Cup being brilliant but hadn't won a CL? Pass both tests? Why else has done that and stayed consistent? Maradona didn't win a CL title, neither did Pele.

In this day and age, CL is the title to win where you compete against the best. To your question as to why Messi hasn't won a World Cup title if it is a lower level tournament, you have to look at coaching and lack of any game plan for most of Messi's Argentina career. They had Maradona as their World Cup coach ffs. I'd love to see if Maradona's team was conceding 4 goals, surely he wouldn't have scored 5 against a good team? Messi's team conceded 4 vs Germany...

And the current Argentina team is likely to concede 4 vs Germany, too, if they meet again very soon. How is that on Messi? The Argentina team has been dysfunctional, and football is a team game. As I mentioned in another thread, if you ignore the team and coach component and attribute success/failure purely to player quality, Germany NT should probably have achieved half of what they achieved in Euro and World Cup tournaments. Often times, they have no more than 1-2 world class players with the rest being decent squad players. Every major nation including Spain and England have had better squads in many of those tournaments yet didn't achieve the same success. The success of the likes of Podolski and Klose, who may have been decent players at their best but hardly world class.

Even the current Germany squad, who is world class in it? Let's be real, who is world class? Neuer and Kroos. The rest are people like Khedira, Ozil, Gotze, Emre Can. Only delusional would call these world class. But they make up a world class team in Germany.

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7475 on: October 11, 2017, 07:07:37 pm »

I know it's a big mistake chatting about Messi/Barcelona with you because you're not capable of thinking rationally about them, but here goes (more fool me);

Well, ask yourself the opposite question. What if Messi had won the World Cup being brilliant but hadn't won a CL? Pass both tests? Why else has done that and stayed consistent? Maradona didn't win a CL title, neither did Pele.

All I personally ask for from my GOAT is that they're there or thereabouts at both club and country level. Maradona did it at club level for me - Serie A was, back then, the best, highest quality league in the history of football. To do what he did there is a 'tick' at club level for me. To be fair I don't know about the Brazilian league back in Pele's day (or was it the Sao Paolo league he played in?). So I won't claim he's the GOAT.

I think Maradona's probably in the top 3 club players of all time.
I think Messi's probably in the top 3 club players of all time, quite possibly even number 1.

I think Maradona's probably in the top 3 international players of all time, quite possibly even number 1.
I don't think Messi has shown himself to (yet) be anywhere near the top 3 international players of all time.

I want ticks in both columns. Fair enough if you dont.


In this day and age, CL is the title to win where you compete against the best. To your question as to why Messi hasn't won a World Cup title if it is a lower level tournament, you have to look at coaching and lack of any game plan for most of Messi's Argentina career. They had Maradona as their World Cup coach ffs. I'd love to see if Maradona's team was conceding 4 goals, surely he wouldn't have scored 5 against a good team? Messi's team conceded 4 vs Germany...

And the current Argentina team is likely to concede 4 vs Germany, too, if they meet again very soon. How is that on Messi? The Argentina team has been dysfunctional, and football is a team game. As I mentioned in another thread, if you ignore the team and coach component and attribute success/failure purely to player quality, Germany NT should probably have achieved half of what they achieved in Euro and World Cup tournaments. Often times, they have no more than 1-2 world class players with the rest being decent squad players. Every major nation including Spain and England have had better squads in many of those tournaments yet didn't achieve the same success. The success of the likes of Podolski and Klose, who may have been decent players at their best but hardly world class.

Even the current Germany squad, who is world class in it? Let's be real, who is world class? Neuer and Kroos. The rest are people like Khedira, Ozil, Gotze, Emre Can. Only delusional would call these world class. But they make up a world class team in Germany.

Messi doesn't need to win the World Cup to be considered the GOAT in my opinion. I'd just like to see him in World Cup knockout games looking like he's the best player on the planet. He's had 6 and a bit goes at it (only 2 with Maradona as manager for the record, 4 and a bit without Maradona as manager). He hasn't looked anywhere near as good in those games as he does for Barcelona. That's all I'm asking. Do a Baggio '94 or Zidane '06 (i.e. don't win the whole thing), just look like you're more than just a very good player. So it doesn't matter if Germany end up winning the whole thing, Messi can still have an iconic tournament.


PS - you didn't include any ;D emojis in your post - you feeling ok mate?

Offline elsewhere

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7476 on: October 11, 2017, 07:17:28 pm »
Yeah they are, its easy. Messi.
This ;D

Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7477 on: October 11, 2017, 07:26:23 pm »

I think Maradona's probably in the top 3 club players of all time.

Not even close in my opinion. Can think of a handful of players that had a far better club career.

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7478 on: October 11, 2017, 07:27:47 pm »
Not even close in my opinion. Can think of a handful of players that had a far better club career.

Fair enough. I disagree. Curious to know who these players are though?

Offline CrasherKid79

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7479 on: October 11, 2017, 07:28:33 pm »
Cristiano isn’t even the best Ronaldo never mind being the greatest of all time.