Author Topic: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris  (Read 183089 times)

Offline macca888

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1960 on: January 23, 2015, 10:10:27 am »
So, did the producers of Bruce Almighty get gunned down? Wasnt he ' God ' supposedly?

No, but that wasn't too bad. The makers of Evan Almighty probably should have been, for crimes against cinema and satirising humour by not fucking being funny.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1961 on: January 23, 2015, 10:11:04 am »
No, but that wasn't too bad. The makers of Evan Almighty probably should have been, for crimes against cinema and satirising humour by not fucking being funny.


Ya twat :)
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1962 on: January 23, 2015, 10:12:18 am »
Sir,

Firstly, thanks for taking the time to engage with some of my points. I appreciate that, I'm bunged up with a cold but decided to respond, now rather than later, out of courtesy and respect for the time you to took to engage.

I agree with some of what you say and disagree with other sentiments. My comment is subsumed on the principle of respect and I would implore other readers just try to internalize my points.

I agree in this country our society has made strides forward to a remarkable level. Of course when something is criminalised and there is an active campaign to teach children from a young age, one will expect such an improvement. Those improvements, as you know, did not come from the government but rather from the collective will of the majority of people (different races, creeds, sexes and sexualities). A collective coming together under the umbrella of respect.

The truth is, curtails on freedom of speech have always been there and we experience them as kids when our parents teach us to show respect to others.

Mocking is a facet of Freedom of Speech which is selective in this country and in France - the common theme being that the underclass in those countries (Muslims and to an increasing degree, immigrants) are considered fair game. Somebody can deny the Armenian Genocide and play down the numbers massacred by the French in North Africa (both happens) yet cannot deny or play down the Holocaust. Which sets alarm bells ringing as it's inconsistent to an inexplicable level.

If one really feels strongly about somebody's religion rather than insulting and mocking with cartoons (i.e. embarking on a superiority/inferiority play) why not converse with the person?

That respectful conversation brings togetherness, understanding and an exchange of ideas while mocking brings about division and increases misunderstandings.

You made the point that the level of racism has decreased (and I assume you were allaying my concerns that these cartoons will be a slippery slope to racist cartoons against Blacks, Chinese people, etc.). It has not decreased in France, in fact Chris Hedges who lived there says it's awfully racist and the same applies to French friends of mine from African and Arab descent.

What is there really to stop the French from allowing racist cartoons in the future as this current support of the anti-religion bigot Charlie Hebdo has set a precedent in (mis)using caricatures of races. They have already featured a pic of somebody from my race as a monkey.

The point here is, if 'freedom to insult' is being conflated as freedom to mock and demean then what is there to stop a bigot of a different kind to try and push the envelope and depict us as zoo animals and mock the Holocaust? Nothing, if the nation is consistent with its policy freedom to mock.

You mentioned MLK. It's weird because I was just listening about the March on Washington on one of my podcasts - which you cited to a guy earlier to show that protests/marches to have potency. That march was a coming together of people of all races and creeds (Charlton Heston was there to add a bit of star power!) but they all came under the banner of respecting other humans.


Sure, people have the ability and (in many cases sadly are even encouraged) to mock underclasses such as the Muslims in this day in the West but the reality is we know as children ALL our parents/guardians taught us not to exercise that ability to mock as it was disrespectful.

Why are people so quick to betray basic principles of respect to pour more misery on an underclass?

It's easy to destroy - one can do that by insulting and mocking but it's difficult to show respect as it takes more effort and engagement.


Lastly, I'm not Charlie Hebdo. I'd rather be Lassana (the Muslim African lad who saved lives in Paris) or Ahmed (the Muslim Arab policeman who was gunned down protecting French people). These people had respect, Charlie Hebdo did not have respect as he was trolling an underclass and cementing segregation.

And, who in the world is the 1000's of Nigerians massacred or the 1,000's of brown kids in Iraq/Afhganistan/Yemen who were at the end of phosphorous bombings and/or drone strikes by gangs ran by extremists such as Obama, Cameron, Blair and Bush.

Would MLK encourage the mockery of an underclass? No, because MLK taught us respect...

There are some decent points in this post, but some strange leaps of logic too.

I agree with you that societies are better when they are based on mutual respect and courtesy. I also think that mockery for its own sake can be despicable and stupidly divisive. I live in London, in Brixton in fact, and one of the reasons the place works is because of the high level of courtesy and respect that people show each other. These days - unlike when I first came to live here - this circle of courtesy includes the police. They're not paragons but they're not the provocateurs they were in the 1980s either. As a result living in Brixton, for all its remaining problems, is much better than it used to be. That's not so different from the rest of the country I'm sure. British society, on the whole, is marked by a fairly high degree of courtesy and respect.

The thing with respect though is that it can only be given voluntarily. You can't demand it. In fact you forfeit the right of respect in the very process of demanding it because every demand contains a little threat. That's why we don't have laws enforcing respect - or, for that matter, laws protecting people from mockery. We especially don't have laws enforcing respect for people's opinions or protecting those from mockery. If we did then British society would become less tolerant, less courteous and less respectful. It would also become more afraid and more resentful.

In this thread you have consistently confused mockery with racism and argued that there is a slippery slope between mocking someone's ideas and mocking their ethnicity. You do it several times in the post above. This has led you to call the murdered Charlie Hebdo journalists "racists" which, disrespectfully (to coin a phrase), is the opposite of the truth. I think you're probably sincere when you say that the Charlie 'monkey' cartoon is pure racism, but I think you must not know what you're talking about as well. It's shown and explained here for what it is: a scornful attack on the racists of the French National Front. http://www.understandingcharliehebdo.com/ I'm not saying you have to think it's a clever cartoon, but I hope you have the integrity to see it for what it really is.

I happen to agree with you on the French Holocaust Law. I'm against it. I know that France has had tremendous problems in recent years with Holocaust Denial and that anti-Semites like Professor Faurrison have reached alarmingly wide audiences with their message that not a single Jewish life was lost at Auschwitz. But, still, I agree with those who say it's better to combat such loathsome and ignorant views in open rather than by resorting to the courts. It's also important that every historical event is open to public discussion and thorough scholarship - not just the Holocaust but things like the life of the Prophet Mohammed and the various sources for the stories in the Koran.

I'm not going to say much about your argument that Charlie Hebdo attacked an "underclass", because others have dealt with it in this thread. Suffice to say that no underclass is being attacked, only ideas. And those ideas belong to a world religion with over a billion members and most of the globe's oil fields. A world religion, by the way, that tends to treat its own minorities (and women) like absolute shit.

France doesn't do that. Nor does the UK. Both guarantee freedom of religion and religious toleration. Both have laws against race hatred. Both have laws against racial and sexual discrimination. Both contain popular political movements aiming to break down poverty and provide opportunities for the marginalised and dispossessed. You can speak your mind here. That's an important source of self-respect and respect for others. All these things go together.         
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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1963 on: January 23, 2015, 10:17:12 am »
Am i correct in thinking that one of the ten commandments says something about not making an image of God?

It's no doubt open to a degree of interpretation but outside of the Biblical fundamentalists, I think the general consensus is it's really about forbidding Idolatry, not about the making of an image but the worship of such an image, Golden Calf and all that.

I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

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Offline saoirse08

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1964 on: January 23, 2015, 10:22:48 am »
Am i correct in thinking that one of the ten commandments says something about not making an image of God?

Yep. Through various periods of history it has lead to a great deal of iconoclasm, like the Islamists' destruction of the Buddhas shown earlier in this thread. 

Iconoclasm happened a great deal in Europe during the reformation, and, indeed, in this country during the 17th century, with the rise of protestantism and extreme puritanism. Many catholic churches were attacked and icons of Jesus, Virgin Mary etc were destroyed. There are some old churches, forget which off hand, where you can still see the marks of 17th century vandalism.


It's no doubt open to a degree of interpretation but outside of the Biblical fundamentalists, I think the general consensus is it's really about forbidding Idolatry, not about the making of an image but the worship of such an image, Golden Calf and all that.


« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 10:25:44 am by saoirse08 »
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1965 on: January 23, 2015, 10:31:14 am »
As others have alluded to, atheists are not some sort of homogenous species or sect, but based on circumstances of myself and friends, I would be willing to wager that more atheists here have had people from various religions disrespecting their decision no to have beliefs and trying to convert them to their cause than the opposite.
Quite. When was the last time an atheists came to your door and tired to convince you about their "beliefs"? I've learned not to say "No thanks, I don't believe in God" because that's taken as an invitation to persuade me. I'm supposed to be tolerant of their beliefs, but the tolerance isn't reciprocated.

Offline electricghost

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1966 on: January 23, 2015, 11:09:01 am »


As others have alluded to, atheists are not some sort of homogenous species or sect, but based on circumstances of myself and friends, I would be willing to wager that more atheists here have had people from various religions disrespecting their decision no to have beliefs and trying to convert them to their cause than the opposite. The worst part is that the religious in these situations in my experience have always resorted to scare tactics as their last ditch argument, that of burning in hell. No respect, no tolerance, no mockery, no satire, Just outright fucking scaremongering.

Fine post that macca, apologies for editing it, but this section is so true, and reminded me of the video below.  It really is a very unpleasant way to treat people, but is a widely accepted practice.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/hJ0eOUVnyFA" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/hJ0eOUVnyFA</a>
“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
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Offline Flinstone

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1967 on: January 23, 2015, 11:38:15 am »

France doesn't do that.
     

By all accounts, they absolutely do.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1968 on: January 23, 2015, 11:45:48 am »
By all accounts, they absolutely do.

Quote the whole thing.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1969 on: January 23, 2015, 12:00:24 pm »
Quote the whole thing.

He doesn't understand the meaning of the word "all".
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Offline electricghost

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1970 on: January 23, 2015, 01:03:17 pm »
You're far more likely to find a genuine 'Muslim underclass' in Muslim majority countries.

The wrong type of Muslim too

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/sunni-muslims-living-fear-iran-state-sponsored-persecution-ramps-1484673
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1971 on: January 23, 2015, 03:39:35 pm »
Attacks blamed on ‘shape-shifting Jews’

“One person told me that they weren’t just regular Jews that were doing this but in fact but a race of magical shape-shifting Jews that were master manipulators that could be everywhere at the same time,”

Full article



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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1972 on: January 23, 2015, 03:42:42 pm »
Attacks blamed on ‘shape-shifting Jews’

“One person told me that they weren’t just regular Jews that were doing this but in fact but a race of magical shape-shifting Jews that were master manipulators that could be everywhere at the same time,”

Full article


Offline macca888

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1973 on: January 23, 2015, 03:57:10 pm »
Attacks blamed on ‘shape-shifting Jews’

“One person told me that they weren’t just regular Jews that were doing this but in fact but a race of magical shape-shifting Jews that were master manipulators that could be everywhere at the same time,”

Full article


:lmao

Before I'd even read the article, I thought about the scene from the Borat movie, and lo and behold, the youtube link is at the bottom of the article.
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Offline macca888

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1974 on: January 23, 2015, 04:00:37 pm »



 ;D   I'll see your horns, and raise you two cockroaches.



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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1975 on: January 23, 2015, 04:46:13 pm »
Borat is hilarious in that clip because it's based on a truth. Jews are blamed for most things which go wrong in certain Arab communities. Many of their so-called champions react the exact same way.

We used to have a poster on here called paul_h who once said that Mossad would soon start dressing up as Arabs and launch spectacular terrorist attacks in major European cities. It was tragic because he really believed it. The same was true of my old mate DannyD who used to say that the Holocaust was a joint Nazi-Zionist operation. I had a feeling, though, that deep down he didn't believe it and that it was his little sect's ideology that used to make him say it.

No doubt paul_h thought the time had come in the first few hours after the Charlie Hebdo attack. Others did. I linked earlier to the comments made by European leaders of the Free Gaza movement who instantly started tweeting that the Charlie attacks were 'false flag' operations designed by Jews. Mind you it takes some real chutzpah to claim that the murders in the Jewish supermarket were also organised by Jews.  But I guess it's just another version of dear old Danny's oddball thesis. 

I despair when I hear stuff like that. I guess we all do. The 'Arab street' has some lousy educators. All sorts of outrageous lies are obviously told at Friday prayers by a whole constellation of Islamist preachers.  The conspiratorial mind-set and the useless belief that  "International Jewry (or Zionism)" is at the heart of every problem is the deplorable result.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1976 on: January 23, 2015, 04:52:57 pm »
A similar thing happens in Pakistan, where India tends to be the bogeyman.
The courts, the rich, the powerful or those in authority never lie. It has been dealt with 'by the courts' nothing to see here run along.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1977 on: January 23, 2015, 04:56:29 pm »
The first 'false-flag' comment I saw was while the events were still ongoing on David Icke's site. It's evidence free and thought free behaviour. It wouldn't make any difference what happened, they already know the answers.

The insanity of that kind of thinking is that even a nuclear strike on Israel that wiped the country off the map could be twisted as some Zionist end game.
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Offline macca888

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1978 on: January 23, 2015, 05:22:30 pm »
The first 'false-flag' comment I saw was while the events were still ongoing on David Icke's site. It's evidence free and thought free behaviour. It wouldn't make any difference what happened, they already know the answers.

The insanity of that kind of thinking is that even a nuclear strike on Israel that wiped the country off the map could be twisted as some Zionist end game.


That reminds me of one of the Islamic fundamentalists in Four Lions, whose masterplan was to bomb a mosque and blame it on Mossad  :D
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Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1979 on: January 24, 2015, 01:39:21 am »
A similar thing happens in Pakistan, where India tends to be the bogeyman.

It's a genuine, mainstream belief among Pakistan's intellectual class.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1980 on: January 24, 2015, 01:50:04 am »
It's a genuine, mainstream belief among Pakistan's intellectual class.
Read, Moshin Hamid's - Discontent and Civilizations, depressing to see that even the country's Men of Letter's resort to such idiotic scapegoating and the lack of insight into what they did in Bangladesh, there's even veiled praise of Musharraf. Was hoping for something less Manchean.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1981 on: January 24, 2015, 02:30:35 pm »
https://tendancecoatesy.wordpress.com/2015/01/24/charlie-hebdo-in-its-own-words-translation-of-tout-est-pardonne-leader/

Tendance Coatesy


Charlie Hebdo in its own Words: Translation of ‘Tout est pardonné’ Leader.



There is a mountain of commentary about Charlie Hebdo. Few, particularly the most hostile to the Weekly, take the trouble to look at more than the Front Page, let alone the articles. Despite some excellent pieces explaining what Charlie is about and where it stands on the French left, the content of the magazine gets skimmed over.

The degree of ignorance this absence fosters is perhaps best indicated by Socialist Workers’ claim that, “Charlie Hebdo is a strange combination—a left wing paper that’s become notorious for its racist attacks on Muslims. Its murdered editor, cartoonist Stephane “Charb” Charbonnier,  considered himself a progressive, anti-establishment figure. Yet the paper is steeped in a “republican” tradition that sees the state as progressive and everything from minority languages to religion as its enemy.” (Socialist Worker). SW even directly smeared the paper talking of the toke it “has played in the legitimisation of racism in France.”Galloway and the Stop the War Coalition have made similar declarations, asserting that Charlie is Islamophobic.

They appear not to have the courage – or perhaps the ability, or (more probably the honesty)  – to read what Charlie actually says. It is not in the least bit ‘strange’. Indeed French leftists find the British left’s failure to confront Islamist religious bigotry and state sponsored religious authority less than ‘progressive’. Not to mention Socialist Worker’s decision to publish material claiming that the overseas jihadists fighting with the genociders of  ISIS could be compared with volunteers for the Republic in the Spanish civil war.

This, the Leader of the famous  Tout est pardonné issue makes it brilliantly clear what Charlie’s secularism is about.

I have rendered the syntax and idioms into colloquial English rather than give a literal translation.

People will be able to make their own judgements – free from the prissy censors of oh so British Liberals and the ‘left’ enemies of Charlie.

Est-ce qu’il y aura encore des “oui mais”?

Are there still the “Yes buts?”

For a week, Charlie, an atheist paper, has achieved more miracles than all the saints and the prophets together. This is the one of which we are the proudest, that you have in your hands the weekly which we have always produced, by the group who have always produced it. The thing that made us laugh the most is that the bells of Notre-Dame rang out in our honour…

For a week, as portrayed so wonderfully by Willem, Charlie has moved, across the world, more than mountains. Charlie has masses of new friends: people without a name, world celebrities, the lowest and the most privileged, sinners and religious dignitaries, the sincere and the Jesuitical, those who’ll be with us for life, and those who are only here for a short time.

At present we accept all of these people and haven’t the will or the time to distinguish amongst them. Not that we are fooled for a moment. But we gives our heartfelt thanks to those, the millions, whether they’re ordinary citizens or those who are part of the established institutions, who are genuinely on our side, who have found each other here, who “are Charlie”. And we say to those who couldn’t give a toss: fuck off!

One question, nevertheless, vexes us: is the denigrating expression, “secularist intellectual” (laïcard intellectuel) going to be dropped from the political vocabulary? Are we finally going to stop finding learned circumlocutions to put murderers and their victims in the same basket?

Over the last years we’ve felt rather alone, trying with our cartoons to push back the muck and intellectual trickery that has been thrown against our friends who’ve staunchly defended secularism (laïcité). That we’re Islamophobes, Christianophobes, provocateurs, irresponsible, throwing fuel on the fire, racists, and ….you got what’s coming to you. Yes, we condemn terrorism, but. Yes, threatening cartoonists with death is not good, but. Yes, burning down a paper isn’t right, but.

We’ve heard all that, and our friends have too. We’ve often tried to laugh it off – that is, after all what we do best. And yet, it’s begun again. The blood of Cabu, Charb, Honoré, Tignous, Wolinski, Elsa Cayat, Bernard Maris, Mustapha Ourrad, Michel Renaud, Franck Brinsolaro, Frédéric Boisseua, Ahmed Merabet, Clarissa Jean-Philippe, Philippe Braham, Yohan Cohen, Yoav Hattab, François-Michel Saada, had not even dried before Thierry Mayssan had explained to his Facebook fans that this was, obviously, a Jewish-American-Western plot.

We already hear, after Sunday’s demonstrations, from those who turned up their noses at the march. Their lips slavering, they’ve come out with the old arguments that justify, overtly or covertly, religious fascism. They are enraged at the praise given to the ‘SS’ Police.

No – in this massacre there is no death less worthy than any other. Franck, who died in Charlie’s offices, and all his colleagues murdered during the week of barbarism, met their deaths defending ideas which are, perhaps, not their own.

We are going to try, regardless, to be optimistic, even if it’s not at present the fashion. We will hope that, from the 7th of January onwards, everybody will firmly defend secularism. That it will not be accepted, as a pose, or out of electoral considerations, or by cowardice, to legitimate, or even tolerate, communalism and cultural relativism. This only opens the way to one thing: religious totalitarianism.

Yes, the Israel-Palestinian conflict is a reality, Yes geopolitics are a series of manoeuvres and low blows, yes social conditions for those called “people of Muslim origin” in France are deeply unfair, Yes, we must never stop fighting racism and discrimination. There are, fortunately, many means to deal with these serious problems. But every one of them is ineffective without one: secularism (laïcité). Not ‘positive’ secularism, not ‘inclusive’ secularism, but secularism – full stop.

Only this, because it’s based on universal rights, can bring about equality, liberty, fraternity and sorority. Only this allows full freedom of thought, a liberty that, more or less openly, according to their marketing position, every religion rejects as soon as it leaves private life, and enters into political territory. Only this allows, ironically, believers to live undisturbed. All of those who claim to defend Muslims, and who accept a totalitarian religious discourse, defend in effect their own butchers. The first victims of Islamic fascism are Muslims.

The millions of anonymous people, all the official institutions, all the heads of government, all the political, intellectual and media personalities, all the religious dignitaries who, during this week, have proclaimed “Je suis Charlie” should know ‘I am Secularism’ – Je suis la laïcité’. We are convinced that, for the majority of those who’ve supported us, this goes without saying. We will let the others deal with their own shit.

There is one final important thing. We’d like to send a message to Pope Francis, who’s been this week himself a Je suis Charlie. We’ll accept that the bells of Notre Dame ring out in our honour when it’s Femen who pull them.

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
― Steven Weinberg

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1982 on: January 24, 2015, 03:25:26 pm »
Charlie Hebdo were mocking Islam. The presence in France of people of differing ethnicities who identify themselves as 'Muslim', poor or otherwise, should not prevent that.

Muslims are not an underclass either, that would imply that every single Muslim in France lives in abject and irredeemable poverty, possibly due to their own fecklessness. It's quite a right wing concept. You're far more likely to find a genuine 'Muslim underclass' in Muslim majority countries.

The North Africans, specifically those of Algerian descent are an underclass.

Listen to Chris Hedges on that or read Robert Fisk. A mate of mine who went to France said he saw that cops their would pull up to wherever the Arab/North African looking kids were and just stare them down to intimidate them - this was routine stuff apparently. Hedges mentions public beatings by the police!

Only an underclass would receive such treatment.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1983 on: January 24, 2015, 03:33:15 pm »
Quite. When was the last time an atheists came to your door and tired to convince you about their "beliefs"?

They are on the net proselytizing their beliefs in Atheism. They also troll Christians on YouTube as well as Muslims.

They haven't began to take it the streets, maybe they just don't like the cold and rather do their thing on the net.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1984 on: January 24, 2015, 03:46:12 pm »
They are on the net proselytizing their beliefs in Atheism. They also troll Christians on YouTube as well as Muslims.

They haven't began to take it the streets, maybe they just don't like the cold and rather do their thing on the net.

It's NOT a belief.

What you call 'proselytising' is actually just asking for reason to be applied often on important matters.

And trolling. My word, what a crime ! Won't anyone stop the bastards ?! 

There is simply no comparison between any of those things you mentioned and actually stopping you at a bus stop or on the way home or even knocking on your door to try and get you to come to church. You have to be incredibly biased towards one side to think of it that way.
Quote from: Dion Fanning

The chants for Kenny Dalglish that were heard again on Wednesday do not necessarily mean that the fans see him as the saviour. This is not Newcastle, longing for the return of Kevin Keegan. Simply, Dalglish represents everything Hodgson is not and, in fairness, everything Hodgson could or would not hope to be.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1985 on: January 24, 2015, 03:49:49 pm »
..maybe they just don't like the cold and rather do their thing on the net.
Cos it's easier on the net innit. Maybe those religious people should try convincing me to accept their firmly held belief that my belief system is less worthy than their belief system (or, worse, in the case of extremists, WRONG!!!!!!) by trying to reach my via the net instead of trying to shove it down my throat on my own doorstep.......at least then I could block them. How many atheists do you see walking around advertising themselves as such? Compared with the established religions, how much atheist literature is forced into our hands or through our letter boxes or thrust at us in the hope of money being exchanged? I don't think you'll ever see the time when Atheism is promoted in the same way as [insert mono/poly-theist belief system here] - what's the point in promoting a belief system that essentially doesn't believe in anything? It's like trying to advertise a product that doesn't exist.


It's also harder to draw satirical cartoons about ;)
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 03:53:41 pm by 24/7 »
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1986 on: January 24, 2015, 03:54:59 pm »
Charlie Hebdo in its own Words
Thanks for posting that.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1987 on: January 24, 2015, 03:59:13 pm »
Cos it's easier on the net innit. Maybe those religious people should try convincing me to accept their firmly held belief that my belief system is less worthy than their belief system (or, worse, in the case of extremists, WRONG!!!!!!) by trying to reach my via the net instead of trying to shove it down my throat on my own doorstep.......at least then I could block them. How many atheists do you see walking around advertising themselves as such? Compared with the established religions, how much atheist literature is forced into our hands or through our letter boxes or thrust at us in the hope of money being exchanged? I don't think you'll ever see the time when Atheism is promoted in the same way as [insert mono/poly-theist belief system here] - what's the point in promoting a belief system that essentially doesn't believe in anything? It's like trying to advertise a product that doesn't exist.


It's also harder to draw satirical cartoons about ;)

Be careful what you wish for mate. You'll be left with a cruel world where people troll on youtube.
Quote from: Dion Fanning

The chants for Kenny Dalglish that were heard again on Wednesday do not necessarily mean that the fans see him as the saviour. This is not Newcastle, longing for the return of Kevin Keegan. Simply, Dalglish represents everything Hodgson is not and, in fairness, everything Hodgson could or would not hope to be.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1988 on: January 24, 2015, 03:59:58 pm »
It's NOT a belief.

What you call 'proselytising' is actually just asking for reason to be applied often on important matters.

And trolling. My word, what a crime ! Won't anyone stop the bastards ?! 

There is simply no comparison between any of those things you mentioned and actually stopping you at a bus stop or on the way home or even knocking on your door to try and get you to come to church. You have to be incredibly biased towards one side to think of it that way.

Of course there's a comparison. When an Atheist kid is trolling Christians (or other religious communities) on the net and trying to get them to believe* in Atheism it's similar to a Christian knocking on somebody's door and trying to convince them to a Christian belief system.

It's the same thing, albeit the Christian is not being a shrinking violet and has some confidence in going out in person.

And please stop with you pro-Atheism spiel in equating that belief* with reason. I don't see Atheism as rational. I don't want you to force it on me. End of.

* I don't buy the Atheist slogan of Atheism not being a belief.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1989 on: January 24, 2015, 04:00:13 pm »
They are on the net proselytizing their beliefs in Atheism. They also troll Christians on YouTube as well as Muslims.

They haven't began to take it the streets, maybe they just don't like the cold and rather do their thing on the net.
What is the problem with atheists proselytizing what they think?

You tube and the Internet.  Heaven forfend! The bastards will be writing books next.  How dare they!

They will be sending hate mail to religious people and threatening to kill them now.

I'm an atheist. I don't think there are any gods.
I'm only one notch up from Christians, Jews, Muslims and Zoroastrians though, because they don't have any belief in all other gods apart from their own.

What is worrying about this, is that atheists have nothing to do with the killings in Paris.  Nothing at all.  I sense a whiff of trying to shift the blame.

These killings are down to Muslims.  Fundamentalist Muslims who were so infatuated, so obsessed with themselves and how they were going to go to heaven and live for eternity that they never for one moment questioned whether it was the right thing to do.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1990 on: January 24, 2015, 04:00:19 pm »
Thanks for posting that.
Indeed - bloody good read. Thanks!
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1991 on: January 24, 2015, 04:02:02 pm »
Indeed - bloody good read. Thanks!
Yes, it was quite moving really. Steadfast in the face of huge adversity and smears.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1992 on: January 24, 2015, 04:03:45 pm »
* I don't buy the Atheist slogan of Atheism not being a belief.
Then it is utterly pointless trying to reason with you. The whole POINT of Atheism is NOT believing.......got it yet?

I don't say, "I believe in 'x'...." - I say, "I don't believe in 'x. Or 'y' or 'z' for that matter."

Oh and the point about the fundamentalist Muslims believing that they would go to paradise for doing good deeds in the name of Allah - if what they were doing was so good and something to be proud of, why did they not stay put and let the heathen, barbaric, infidels arrest them and try them in court? Why did they feel the need to run and hide, like cowards? That's not martyrdom. It's cowardice. And all in the name of Our God's Better Than Your God. Pathetic.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1993 on: January 24, 2015, 04:04:55 pm »
what's the point in promoting a belief system that essentially doesn't believe in anything?

Tell that to the Atheist societies who waste money on bus adverts to promote Atheism. I've seen them in London.


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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1994 on: January 24, 2015, 04:05:43 pm »
Tell that to the Atheist societies who waste money on bus adverts to promote Atheism. I've seen them in London.
I still don't see your point. I don't actually think you're even making one. You're trying to compare fruit with rocks. Those adverts do not say that religion is wrong. They just say that god might not exist. It's not about trying to force something down someone else's throat. It's certainly not about shooting people in the fucking head cos they drew a cartoon about some fella in a turban.......

If religious people really are that thin-skinned, it says a lot about their inner insecurity.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 04:07:37 pm by 24/7 »
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1995 on: January 24, 2015, 04:06:17 pm »
They are on the net proselytizing their beliefs in Atheism.
Ah, the net. The same place you can find child pornography, Stormfront and Jihadi websites - all of which can be easily avoided, if you have no interest. It's not the same as knocking on someone's front door.
Quote
They also troll Christians on YouTube as well as Muslims.
Good.
Quote
They haven't began to take it the streets, maybe they just don't like the cold and rather do their thing on the net.
So, in a round about way you've answered my question: No Atheist has ever knocked on your door, wrecking some father/son quality time in the process, to convince you of a (not the) single point of their belief system. Wish the same were true of the proselytizing faiths.


Besides, Secularism is the important thing; keep religion out of the State, our schools and don't afford it special status so that which is patently ridiculous is above being ridiculed.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1996 on: January 24, 2015, 04:08:09 pm »
* I don't buy the Atheist slogan of Atheism not being a belief.
Atheists don't care. It's easy to explain, but if you don't get it, you don't get.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1997 on: January 24, 2015, 04:09:23 pm »
Atheists don't care. It's easy to explain, but if you don't get it, you don't get.
Also, to steal a line from Lock, Stock & Two Smoking Barrels - "Well that's convenient, cos I ain't fahckin' sellin' it!"
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1998 on: January 24, 2015, 04:10:43 pm »
* I don't buy the Atheist slogan of Atheism not being a belief.

Awesome. My reaction can only be described as disbelief.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1999 on: January 24, 2015, 04:11:21 pm »
Of course there's a comparison. When an Atheist kid is trolling Christians (or other religious communities) on the net and trying to get them to believe* in Atheism it's similar to a Christian knocking on somebody's door and trying to convince them to a Christian belief system.

It's the same thing, albeit the Christian is not being a shrinking violet and has some confidence in going out in person.

And please stop with you pro-Atheism spiel in equating that belief* with reason. I don't see Atheism as rational. I don't want you to force it on me. End of.

* I don't buy the Atheist slogan of Atheism not being a belief.

That's a joke of a post. No one cares if you don't see atheism as being rational because most atheists I know came to that position by path of rational thought. I can't think of a single religious person I know that made the reverse journey and cited rationalism as the reason for it. And that's just my anecdotal experience. If we go further and examine the issue more broadly, it is conclusive that rationalism leads to loss of religious belief. I know people will say agnosticism is the rational position but I have my arguments against that.

And of course you don't buy the stuff about atheism not being a belief. As a long standing atheist, I'm sure you are in 'location location location' to judge what atheists do and don't believe.

And again, to reiterate, no one is trying to convert people on to becoming atheists. That's an unavoidable byproduct of applying reason sometimes to sensitive issues like say the debate about abortions or climate change or teaching the 'controversy' at schools.

Since when did trolling mean constructing an argument against an idea by the way ? Your definitions of what trolling is are awfully intolerant. It seems you're happy to label any arguments put forward against religion as trolling.

It's an embarrassing post to be honest. Religions have the right to proselytise by the way and by the same principle, those that don't believe in any gods/religions have an equal right to state the whole thing is nonsense. 
Quote from: Dion Fanning

The chants for Kenny Dalglish that were heard again on Wednesday do not necessarily mean that the fans see him as the saviour. This is not Newcastle, longing for the return of Kevin Keegan. Simply, Dalglish represents everything Hodgson is not and, in fairness, everything Hodgson could or would not hope to be.