Topic: United Ireland v United Kingdom

[BobOnATank]

Ok its going to be a hard discussion but I want to focus on the positives on both sides rather than history.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09y26jk/my-dad-the-peace-deal-and-me#
(a bit if histtory but in context)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-43823506 (maybe)

Is it a valid situation? Should we aspire to better than the kids or let them achieve it? or should we try (or not)?

[Zimagic]

Ok its going to be a hard discussion but I want to focus on the positives on both sides rather than history.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09y26jk/my-dad-the-peace-deal-and-me#
(a bit if histtory but in context)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-43823506 (maybe)

Is it a valid situation? Should we aspire to better than the kids or let them achieve it? or should we try (or not)?

A couple of things to bear in mind:

- Catholic does not automatically equate to Irish Nationalist

- In a 2012 (?) survey, given 3 options those polled went for, in this order 1.) remain in the UK, 2.) become independant and 3.) form a united Ireland.
I'd expect to see option #2 and a protracted struggle with the rest of the UK happen before #3. Romantic ideas of a united Ireland currently ignore the political, social,  financial & logistical steps needed to actually unify the island. In short, if anyone wants a united Ireland, they have to prove to 1.) the Unionist community that unity is so overwhelmingly in their best interests that they are willing to set aside national pride to join with the ROI (it would have to be a very, very sweet cake for them to bite into it) and 2.) the population of the ROI that it won't bankrupt them to do so.
I personally wouldn't trust any Irish government not to fudge the issue or find a way to profit from it personally while the population bears the brunt of the cost for the next 4-5 generations and that population is already counting the cost of decades of financial mismanagement so are unlikely to blindly accept a half-assed proposition.

- Hard Brexit may not even give the Republic a choice, forcing either the erection of a walled & patrolled border (which neither ROI or NI wants) or a defacto Eirexit.

[thejbs]

A couple of things to bear in mind:

- Catholic does not automatically equate to Irish Nationalist

- In a 2012 (?) survey, given 3 options those polled went for, in this order 1.) remain in the UK, 2.) become independant and 3.) form a united Ireland.
I'd expect to see option #2 and a protracted struggle with the rest of the UK happen before #3. Romantic ideas of a united Ireland currently ignore the political, social,  financial & logistical steps needed to actually unify the island. In short, if anyone wants a united Ireland, they have to prove to 1.) the Unionist community that unity is so overwhelmingly in their best interests that they are willing to set aside national pride to join with the ROI (it would have to be a very, very sweet cake for them to bite into it) and 2.) the population of the ROI that it won't bankrupt them to do so.
I personally wouldn't trust any Irish government not to fudge the issue or find a way to profit from it personally while the population bears the brunt of the cost for the next 4-5 generations and that population is already counting the cost of decades of financial mismanagement so are unlikely to blindly accept a half-assed proposition.

- Hard Brexit may not even give the Republic a choice, forcing either the erection of a walled & patrolled border (which neither ROI or NI wants) or a defacto Eirexit.

And vice versa. I have four friends from Protestant backgrounds that are pro-united Ireland. I come from a Catholic background and am only lukewarm to the idea.

[Corkboy]

I'm from the Republic and have zero interest in a United Ireland.

[Crosby Nick]

Where’s Kerrykop these days? Surprised this hasn’t triggered his alarm yet!

[TepidT2O]

Some kind of federal union of the British Isles makes most sense reallly.

But that’s only if you totally ignore the last thousand or so years of history.. which you can’t.

[Macphisto80]

Is this thread about asking the question of who wants it or not?

If so, as an Irishman, then my answer to a United Ireland is yes.

[killer-heels]

Imagine the chaos it would cause in the UK if the Ireland and the Northern Ireland united? For that very reason, i hope it happens.

Of course as long as it doesnt end up in violence.

[Macphisto80]

Imagine the chaos it would cause in the UK if the Ireland and the Northern Ireland united? For that very reason, i hope it happens.

Of course as long as it doesnt end up in violence.

What kind of chaos? Economical? Political?

[WhereAngelsPlay]

If the Northerners and Southerners want it then it should happen,don't believe that it will myself,at least not without a serious amount of violence.

[J_Kopite]

Imagine the chaos it would cause in the UK if the Ireland and the Northern Ireland united? For that very reason, i hope it happens.

Of course as long as it doesnt end up in violence.

What do you define as 'violence'? If millions were condemned to poverty or family units were split up all over the Isle would that be ok

Not saying that would happen as a result of this but deary me.

[thejbs]

What do you define as 'violence'? If millions were condemned to poverty or family units were split up all over the Isle would that be ok

Not saying that would happen as a result of this but deary me.

Northern Ireland is one of the more impoverished parts of the UK as it is.  And how do you see family units splitting over a  United Ireland?

My opposition to it is purely selfish. I'd have to pay VAT and more tax. The cost of living is significantly greater in the ROI compared to NI. A United Ireland would leave me worse off financially.  If that changes off the back of Brexit, I'm all for it.

[drmick]

Brexit now brings the issue into sharp focus, because there will now be massive economic implications that were not there before.

I think it is now clear that it is inevitable. Sinn Fein are already on the charm offensive trying to claim some of the hearts and minds of moderates.

Personally I have already researched my salary in Ireland (lots more) and the price of alcohol (lots more too).

Lack of free healthcare should be an issue but it won't because there are plenty of stupid people out there.

[thejbs]

I'll see no change in my salary (self-employed and already earn much of my money in ROI).  I'd see a massive difference in how it's taxed though.  I also hate the stingy car specs they have and the general price of things.

[Outer Mongolian Red]

Brexit now brings the issue into sharp focus, because there will now be massive economic implications that were not there before.

I think it is now clear that it is inevitable. Sinn Fein are already on the charm offensive trying to claim some of the hearts and minds of moderates.

Personally I have already researched my salary in Ireland (lots more) and the price of alcohol (lots more too).

Lack of free healthcare should be an issue but it won't because there are plenty of stupid people out there.

The salary question is something I've always wondered,how do Unionists in the North explain why their counterparts in the south earn more than them?

The healthcare point is a good one,I live in London now but am originally from the west of Ireland. It costs €50 to see a GP in Ireland but is free here & fuck knows how much they charge back home for a hospital stay. But could free healthcare be negotiated as a prerequisite by the Unionists before a referendum?

[Macphisto80]

Northern Ireland is one of the more impoverished parts of the UK as it is.  And how do you see family units splitting over a  United Ireland?

My opposition to it is purely selfish. I'd have to pay VAT and more tax. The cost of living is significantly greater in the ROI compared to NI. A United Ireland would leave me worse off financially.  If that changes off the back of Brexit, I'm all for it.

Are wages not higher, though?

[thejbs]

Are wages not higher, though?

As i said above, my salary would likely not change. I imagine it would be the same for many.

[Mutton Geoff]

They manage a United Ireland on the Rugby Pitch.

[conman]

Relevant from Jun 2017

It is unfashionable to say it, but the Union has been an economic disaster for both tribes in Northern Ireland.

If we go back to 1920, 80 per cent of the industrial output of the entire island of Ireland came from the three counties centred on Belfast. This was where all Irish industry was. It was industrial and innovative; northern entrepreneurs and inventors were at the forefront of industrial innovation. By 1911, Belfast was the biggest city in Ireland, with a population of close to 400,000, which was growing rapidly. It was by far the richest part of the island.

Fast-forward to now and the collapse of the once-dynamic Northern economy versus that of the Republic is shocking. Having been a fraction of the North’s at independence, the Republic’s industrial output is now ten times greater than that of Northern Ireland. Exports from the Republic are €89 billion while from the North, exports are a paltry €6 billion. This obviously reflects multinationals, but it also underscores just how far ahead the Republic’s industrial base is. Producing 15 times more exports underscores a vast difference in terms of the globalisation of business.

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/despite-the-duptory-deal-today-united-ireland-is-on-the-cards-we-must-have-a-plan/

[Thoros Of Myr]

Its not a United Ireland, its a New Ireland.

[drmick]

Relevant from Jun 2017

It is unfashionable to say it, but the Union has been an economic disaster for both tribes in Northern Ireland.

If we go back to 1920, 80 per cent of the industrial output of the entire island of Ireland came from the three counties centred on Belfast. This was where all Irish industry was. It was industrial and innovative; northern entrepreneurs and inventors were at the forefront of industrial innovation. By 1911, Belfast was the biggest city in Ireland, with a population of close to 400,000, which was growing rapidly. It was by far the richest part of the island.

Fast-forward to now and the collapse of the once-dynamic Northern economy versus that of the Republic is shocking. Having been a fraction of the North’s at independence, the Republic’s industrial output is now ten times greater than that of Northern Ireland. Exports from the Republic are €89 billion while from the North, exports are a paltry €6 billion. This obviously reflects multinationals, but it also underscores just how far ahead the Republic’s industrial base is. Producing 15 times more exports underscores a vast difference in terms of the globalisation of business.

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/despite-the-duptory-deal-today-united-ireland-is-on-the-cards-we-must-have-a-plan/

But how much of that has been anything to do with partition? All areas were manufacturing was the mainstay of income suffered a similar fate. In the Republic's case how much of their success was secondary to being in the EU?

[Elisha S]

As i said above, my salary would likely not change. I imagine it would be the same for many.

Wages in the south are significantly higher than the north. People are poor up there, whatever way you look at it.

[SP]

Surely the answer is neither. The current fudge where people choose their own identity is inspired. Deviate significantly either way from that and you are risking a bloody conflict. There does not need to be a radical solution, we just need to prevent idiot Brexiteers dismantling the currently working solution.

[Libertine]

Relevant from Jun 2017

It is unfashionable to say it, but the Union has been an economic disaster for both tribes in Northern Ireland.

If we go back to 1920, 80 per cent of the industrial output of the entire island of Ireland came from the three counties centred on Belfast. This was where all Irish industry was. It was industrial and innovative; northern entrepreneurs and inventors were at the forefront of industrial innovation. By 1911, Belfast was the biggest city in Ireland, with a population of close to 400,000, which was growing rapidly. It was by far the richest part of the island.

Fast-forward to now and the collapse of the once-dynamic Northern economy versus that of the Republic is shocking. Having been a fraction of the North’s at independence, the Republic’s industrial output is now ten times greater than that of Northern Ireland. Exports from the Republic are €89 billion while from the North, exports are a paltry €6 billion. This obviously reflects multinationals, but it also underscores just how far ahead the Republic’s industrial base is. Producing 15 times more exports underscores a vast difference in terms of the globalisation of business.

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/despite-the-duptory-deal-today-united-ireland-is-on-the-cards-we-must-have-a-plan/

Wow, those numbers are astonishing. I knew the general trend of course, but didn't realise it was that stark.

Given how much they value identity over economic well-being, it's no surprise the hardline Unionists are so behind Brexit.

Just highlights what a disaster a united Ireland would be for the Republic - economically, politically (try forming a government with a load of Unionists and even more SFers in the Dail, it's bad enough now) and socially. Let's the leave the problem to the UK for the forseeable future, they own it.

[thejbs]

But how much of that has been anything to do with partition? All areas were manufacturing was the mainstay of income suffered a similar fate. In the Republic's case how much of their success was secondary to being in the EU?

The North would likely have benefitted from the Celtic tiger without partition. The troubles also played a massive part in the economy of the North, as did the bombings in WWII (outside of London, Belfast saw some of the worst of the blitz).  Without partition, it would be interesting to see how things might have changed.

Partition, as it is now, was never the plan for the British. In 1920 they imagined eventually having a single Irish parliament with Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland having a kind of Scotland-England relationship - two constituent parts of the same country.

[naka]

Wow, those numbers are astonishing. I knew the general trend of course, but didn't realise it was that stark.

Given how much they value identity over economic well-being, it's no surprise the hardline Unionists are so behind Brexit.

Just highlights what a disaster a united Ireland would be for the Republic - economically, politically (try forming a government with a load of Unionists and even more SFers in the Dail, it's bad enough now) and socially. Let's the leave the problem to the UK for the forseeable future, they own it.

interesting comments Libertine, quite a change from the ideals of 1916 which the leaders fought for.( which was an independent island not 26 counties )
both countries own the problem !
for me a united Ireland is going happen sooner rather than later and Brexit will be the catalyst
the dup is not willing to listen to the business community in NI who are pushing to remain within  a single market because their badge of Britishness is more important to them.
more and more liberal unionists see that and given the fact that the majority population in the North will no longer be Unionist with a capital u the writing is on the wall for the partitioned statelet.
a few decades of the crapshoot that is Brexit will see the end of NI

[thejbs]

I really don't see it happening any time soon.  There are too many changes that need to be made first. The main thing is schooling. We have segregated education here which is fucking astonishing in 2018. There are generations growing up that didn't experience the troubles but from 4 years old are being separated from kids of different 'faith.' Schools should not be allowed to segregate based on religion. I didn't have any Protestant/Unionist friends until college.  Now, most of my closest friends come from that background. It's shameful.

[Yorkykopite]

Imagine the chaos it would cause in the UK if the Ireland and the Northern Ireland united? For that very reason, i hope it happens.

Of course as long as it doesnt end up in violence.

So you want the chaos and not the violence? Interesting.

As soon as most people in Northern Ireland want unity with Ireland and not Britain, and vote for it, then I'm for it too. Until that happens I'm against it. For reasons of chaos and violence.

EDIT - Channelling Corkboy here, but I think the Republic should have a (separate) vote too to see if they want the Northern Irish to join them.

[KillieRed]

The United Kingdom is a failed experiment. It doesnt work for all of the "equal" partners.

United Ireland? Sheesh, not touching that one. Good people on both sides as a wise man once said.   

[Yorkykopite]

The United Kingdom is a failed experiment. It doesnt work for all of the "equal" partners.

Historically of course it’s been a rare and tremendous success. The ‘experiment’ as you call it is now extremely long in the tooth and has always been a voluntary association. The one big blemish was obviously Northern Ireland, though the Good Friday agreement has successfully cauterised the vsiolence and introduced some genuine representative democracy to that part of the world.

You may be right that the UK is now coming towards an end. There’s increasing pressure in England to have an assembly of its own and growing popular reluctance to keep on subsidising the Scots. And clearly the Scots now feel increasingly that they would like a crack on their own. This is the new age of nationalism after all.

[Corkboy]

Historically of course it’s been a rare and tremendous success. The ‘experiment’ as you call it is now extremely long in the tooth and has always been a voluntary association.

For a long time, it was the United Kingdom of Britain and Ireland. That was not voluntary.

[Yorkykopite]

For a long time, it was the United Kingdom of Britain and Ireland. That was not voluntary.

Fair point.

[Elmo!]

Fair point.

The 1707 Act of Union was only voluntary going by a very loose definition of the word as well (although I do concede that it has been supported for the vast majority of it's existence).

[Yorkykopite]

The 1707 Act of Union was only voluntary going by a very loose definition of the word as well (although I do concede that it has been supported for the vast majority of it's existence).

That’s what I meant really. And as a union of separate nations it is, or was, almost uniquely successful. Over time the differences that divided Labour (or until 1918 Liberal) from Tory were far greater and more important than those that divided the English from the Scots. The brutal nationalisms that erupted elsewhere in Europe, often in reaction to ‘unions’ like the Hapsburg empire, were simply not felt in the UK. The political system was fair to all ‘tribes’ and the benefits flowed more or less equally. Quite an achievement in the context of world history.

[cowtownred]

Sooner the better for me, as a Northern 'Unionist' by birth...  but an Irishman in every way.

[Ray K]

EDIT - Channelling Corkboy here, but I think the Republic should have a (separate) vote too to see if they want the Northern Irish to join them.

It's in our Constitution, as part of the GFA:

It is the firm will of the Irish nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island. Until then, the laws enacted by the Parliament established by this Constitution shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws enacted by the Parliament that existed immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution.

[drmick]

For me, the big question for the politicians themselves is: do they keep an NI Assembly, or do NI politicians take seats in the Dail?

I am not knowledgeable enough to know how to answer that one- but making NI politicians go to Dublin might hopefully remove a lot of sectarianism. Whereas we have Unionists representing Protestant communities and Nationalists Catholic communities, both would then have to represent Northern Irish communities, and try their best to get resources diverted away from other parts of Ireland. Combined they could be a large coalition I'm guessing?

[drmick]

Back of a napkin calculations:

Dail has 158 seats currently.
Like for like NI would get about 60.
Based on last Assembly election the Unionist parties would get 26, the two nationalist parties would take 24.

[BobOnATank]

A couple of things to bear in mind:

- Catholic does not automatically equate to Irish Nationalist

- In a 2012 (?) survey, given 3 options those polled went for, in this order 1.) remain in the UK, 2.) become independant and 3.) form a united Ireland.
I'd expect to see option #2 and a protracted struggle with the rest of the UK happen before #3. Romantic ideas of a united Ireland currently ignore the political, social,  financial & logistical steps needed to actually unify the island. In short, if anyone wants a united Ireland, they have to prove to 1.) the Unionist community that unity is so overwhelmingly in their best interests that they are willing to set aside national pride to join with the ROI (it would have to be a very, very sweet cake for them to bite into it) and 2.) the population of the ROI that it won't bankrupt them to do so.
I personally wouldn't trust any Irish government not to fudge the issue or find a way to profit from it personally while the population bears the brunt of the cost for the next 4-5 generations and that population is already counting the cost of decades of financial mismanagement so are unlikely to blindly accept a half-assed proposition.

- Hard Brexit may not even give the Republic a choice, forcing either the erection of a walled & patrolled border (which neither ROI or NI wants) or a defacto Eirexit.

Yes religion as a separator in NI is a fallacy of Westminster propaganda. The second option you refer to is utter nonsense, I have never known anyone ever to refer to such a scenario. Financially the DUP (26% of the vote) relies on Westminster bailing the state out but if part of the EU then the reputation of the block would be plain to see and ROI would have support to see it though for the eventual greater good of the EU.

Best comment I saw so far was about a new Ireland which is not ROI + NI, its a different ideal that accepts the rights of all people of the island of Ireland.

Talking about changes: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-43920260

to be honest I think the unification of Ireland and the separation of scotland as a stronger position than the current situation just like Scandinavia, with Sweden, Norway and Finland. Together they were constrained but as individual countries are much stronger together especially the English equivalent in Sweden.

[gemofabird]

I personally wouldn't trust any Irish government not to fudge the issue or find a way to profit from it personally while the population bears the brunt of the cost for the next 4-5 generations and that population is already counting the cost of decades of financial mismanagement so are unlikely to blindly accept a half-assed proposition.

And people in here wonder why people want out of Europe. Ireland is a prime example of a country being dictated to by Europe - Greece likewise.
People in Britain  have had it too good with their foot in, foot out of Europe existence, and throw their toys out of the pram and scream how the people are just clueless racists when they don't like how the people voted. Reminds of the people who come to the games these days just to moan, with their sense of entitlement. 
Come over here and live for a while and you will see just why people might want out. We voted not to be part of it but hey ho, that wasnt good enough so we voted until Europe got the vote it wanted, and now look at us. My children's grandchildren will be still paying for the banks flook ups.