Topic: Nazi Saluting Dog

[SP]

A man who filmed a pet dog giving Nazi salutes before putting the footage on YouTube has been fined £800.

Mark Meechan, 30, recorded his girlfriend's pug, Buddha, responding to statements such as "Sieg Heil" by raising its paw.

The clip was viewed more than three million times on YouTube.

Meechan, of Coatbridge, North Lanarkshire, was sentenced at Airdrie Sheriff Court after being found guilty of committing a hate crime last month.

He had denied any wrong-doing and insisted he made the video, which was posted in April 2016, to annoy his girlfriend.

But Sheriff Derek O'Carroll found him guilty of a charge under the Communications Act that he posted a video on social media and YouTube which was grossly offensive because it was "anti-Semitic and racist in nature" and was aggravated by religious prejudice.

Fining Meechan £800, the sheriff told him: "The centrepiece of your video consists of you repeating the phrase 'Gas the Jews' over and over again as a command to a dog which then reacts.

"You use the command Sieg Heil, having trained the dog to raise its paw in response and the video shows a clip of a Nuremberg rally and a flashing image of Hitler with strident music. You say the video was only intended as a joke to upset your girlfriend, whose dog you used, and nothing more.

"On the whole evidence..I found it proved that the video you posted, using a public communications network, was grossly offensive and contained menacing, anti-Semitic and racist material."

He added: "The fact that you claim in the video, and elsewhere, that the video was intended only to annoy your girlfriend and as a joke and that you did not intend to be racist is of little assistance to you.

"A joke can be grossly offensive. A racist joke or a grossly offensive video does not lose its racist or grossly offensive quality merely because the maker asserts he only wanted to get a laugh."

Meechan was supported in court by by Tommy Robinson, former leader of far-right group the English Defence League (EDL).

Speaking after being fined, Meechan - who posts under the name Count Dankula - said he would be appealing the sentence.

He defended the video, saying the whole point of the "joke" was "the juxtaposition of having an adorable animal reacting to something vulgar".

Meechan said: "This is a really dangerous precedent to set - for people to say things and their context to be completely ignored and then they can be convicted for it.

"You don't get to decide the context, other people don't get to decide the context, the court decides. That's dangerous."

Tommy Robinson, former leader of far-right group the English Defence League, supported Meechan in court
There was a demonstration outside court by protesters claiming the case went against the principle of freedom of speech.

Comedian Ricky Gervais had taken to Twitter to comment on the case after guilty the verdict.

He tweeted: "A man has been convicted in a UK court of making a joke that was deemed 'grossly offensive'.

"If you don't believe in a person's right to say things that you might find 'grossly offensive', then you don't believe in Freedom of Speech."

Even before Mark Meechan arrived for his sentence, dozens of free speech campaigners were outside the building, protesting his innocence.

Also present was Tommy Robinson, ex-leader of the far-right English Defence League.

Inside, courtroom number two was packed out as members of the public and journalists sat poised to hear Sheriff Derek O'Carroll impose sentence.

Meechan's lawyer told the court his client was a man who enjoyed "shock humour" and questioned why he was in the dock, given the number of famous comedians who incorporate lines about the holocaust into their acts.

Sheriff O'Carroll told Meechan he'd made a deliberate decision to post offensive material in a place where any member of the public could see it.

At the same time, the sheriff said he was a first-offender with a low risk of committing further crime - and that he'd learned from his experience.

Afterwards Meechan emerged from court defiant - insisting all he'd done was exercise his right to free speech.

He left vowing to appeal.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-43864133


The reporting here buries the bit that got the conviction in the body of the story. If he had just said Seig Heil, and shown the dog, I doubt he would have been prosecuted. As soon as you start saying "Gas the Jews", you are in the realm of being deeply offensive and risking having action taken against you.

This case falls easily into the exclusions under article 10 of the Human Rights Act.

[So… Howard Philips]

What's concerning is that 3m people viewed the video.

And how is "Gas the Jews" free speech?

[rob1966]

Freedom of speech my arse, "Gas the Jews" is not funny nor acceptable.

[Conocinico]

Each person in this thread has said "Gas the Jews" now, proving context is important.

[ShakaHislop]

If he just wanted to annoy his girlfriend, why did he need to upload the video to YouTube rather than just show it to her?

[adruk87]

What's concerning is that 3m people viewed the video.

And how is "Gas the Jews" free speech?

Videos go viral all the time, not necessarily for the right reasons. I'd imagine the majority of the 3m people watched it for the same reasons they watch other videos on the internet.

"Hey, look at this pug doing a Nazi salute lol" etc. Move on to next "funny" video.

[El Lobo]

Took Tommy Robinson into court with him, that'll have helped his cause for appearing non-racist 

[rob1966]

Each person in this thread has said "Gas the Jews" now, proving context is important.

Yeah you are right context is everything. After seeing the report, I found the video on the New York Times website. He keeps repeating "Do you wanna gas the Jews?" right through the video to the dog and the dog reacts in the same kind of interested way a dog does when it hears something associated with a treat.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Not the brightest spark is he,had he half a brain he would've said that he dubbed 'Gas the Jews' into the video.I can see why some comedians spoke out in his favour but am pleased that the dumb shit got a pretty hefty fine.

[ShakaHislop]

Not the brightest spark is he,had he half a brain he would've said that he dubbed 'Gas the Jews' into the video.I can see why some comedians spoke out in his favour but am pleased that the dumb shit got a pretty hefty fine.

Would that have made any difference to the outcome of the trial? The video would still have been considered grossly offensive.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Would that have made any difference to the outcome of the trial? The video would still have been considered grossly offensive.

I think so as he could've then really passed it off as satire just to see the reaction.American dad & Family Guy have certainly done worse.

I may be wrong though and certainly won't be testing out my theory.

[Zimagic]

If he just wanted to annoy his girlfriend, why did he need to upload the video to YouTube rather than just show it to her?

Are they still together?

[OneTouchFooty]

The common response from this guys ‘supporters’ is “well who gets to decide what is classed as offensive?” It all becomes very murky and then you have opportunistic lowlife pricks like Robinson jump on these bandwagons looking like some fighter of justice, when he basically is attempting to qualify every shitty thing he says with “freedom of speech innit”. It’s a bit mad he’s been prosecuted, it creates a prescesdent for these sorts of petty cases which are waste of time.

[Dench57]

its political correctness gone mad

[SlowRap]

Surprised his legal team didn't dig deeper into this part;

I didn't know a privately owed US company is now a "public communications network." for the UK. He uploaded the video onto a US site on servers located God knows where - the 3 million viewers I assume are from all around the world not just the UK - I'd understand if he was extradited to the US and had a trial there.

By that logic the internet itself is a "public communications network." the judge will be busy and very rich if he switches on his kids play-station and listens to some "public communication" going on Call of Duty.

It was a troll video aimed to get a reaction and it did - unfortunately all this'll do is help end net neutrality

[SP]

Surprised his legal team didn't dig deeper into this part;

I didn't know a privately owed US company is now a "public communications network." for the UK. He uploaded the video onto a US site on servers located God knows where - the 3 million viewers I assume are from all around the world not just the UK - I'd understand if he was extradited to the US and had a trial there.

By that logic the internet itself is a "public communications network." the judge will be busy and very rich if he switches on his kids play-station and listens to some "public communication" going on Call of Duty.

It was a troll video aimed to get a reaction and it did - unfortunately all this'll do is help end net neutrality

Publishing to an openly accessible network is a public communications network. The language may arcane, but the intent of the law is clear as is the precedent, that UK people are responsible for items that they publish to the internet under UK law. He committed the act of publishing from a UK PC. There is not a strong jurisdiction argument to relocate to the states.

There are lots of things that could be viewed as criminal that are not prosecuted. Transient stuff like Call of Duty is generally ignored. How many Call of Duty games get 3 million views?

The law of offence is another of those bloke on a Clapham Omnibus things. It is frustratingly imprecise, but that is its strength too. It liberalises itself as society's attitudes evolve. As unsatisfactory as it is, it probably works in practice better that the alternative of constant Westminster tinkering. 

[Craig S]

Publishing to an openly accessible network is a public communications network. The language may arcane, but the intent of the law is clear as is the precedent, that UK people are responsible for items that they publish to the internet under UK law. He committed the act of publishing from a UK PC. There is not a strong jurisdiction argument to relocate to the states.

There are lots of things that could be viewed as criminal that are not prosecuted. Transient stuff like Call of Duty is generally ignored. How many Call of Duty games get 3 million views?

The law of offence is another of those bloke on a Clapham Omnibus things. It is frustratingly imprecise, but that is its strength too. It liberalises itself as society's attitudes evolve. As unsatisfactory as it is, it probably works in practice better that the alternative of constant Westminster tinkering. 

The judge also does not state that the "public communications network" is youtube. It could equally mean his UK based ISP, or the combination of software & hardware that creates the network, all the way from PC to end server. His lawyers would get absolutely destroyed if they went down the route suggested above.

[Red Beret]

Took Tommy Robinson into court with him, that'll have helped his cause for appearing non-racist 

Paul Golding wasn't available.

[[new username under construction]]

Took Tommy Robinson into court with him, that'll have helped his cause for appearing non-racist 

For a second there I thought he took Baldrick

[SlowRap]

Publishing to an openly accessible network is a public communications network. The language may arcane, but the intent of the law is clear as is the precedent, that UK people are responsible for items that they publish to the internet under UK law. He committed the act of publishing from a UK PC. There is not a strong jurisdiction argument to relocate to the states.

There are lots of things that could be viewed as criminal that are not prosecuted. Transient stuff like Call of Duty is generally ignored. How many Call of Duty games get 3 million views?

The law of offence is another of those bloke on a Clapham Omnibus things. It is frustratingly imprecise, but that is its strength too. It liberalises itself as society's attitudes evolve. As unsatisfactory as it is, it probably works in practice better that the alternative of constant Westminster tinkering.

I'm sure you're right with regards to the law I'm just throwing out scenarios where it can be confusing,

What happens if someone else uploads the video from a different country? Was the crime actually uploading it onto a public platform?

[Elmo!]

I dont think he should have been prosecuted but the guy is an arsehole. Lost all sympathety the moment he started courting the alt right crowd and Tommy Robinson.

[OneTouchFooty]

I dont think he should have been prosecuted but the guy is an arsehole. Lost all sympathety the moment he started courting the alt right crowd and Tommy Robinson.

It’s the circles the bloke runs in anyway. Been photo’d with that man child off Infowars and usual alt-right, misogynist neckbeards. The defence seems to be you can say/do anything you like as long as you frame it as a joke/freedom of speech.

[Trim0582]

I didn't find it amusing, but I am not an arbiter of humour. There was context, it was as he stated, (paraphrased) to train his girlfriend’s dog to do something vile, extrapolating from that would suggest he finds Nazis vile. His choice of phrase was abhorrent, but I would find Holocaust denial far more concerning. Largely a huge waste of time and police resources when there are serious issues at the moment.

[Nobby Reserve]

I dont think he should have been prosecuted but the guy is an arsehole. Lost all sympathety the moment he started courting the alt right crowd and Tommy Robinson.

I agree absolutely.

[redbyrdz]

Just a joke, my arse. He's a fascist arsehole, the fact that he pretends not to realise how offensive that is, and that he's having 'support' from Tommy Robinson of all people shows that. Deserves all he gets.

[Skeeve]

I didn't find it amusing, but I am not an arbiter of humour. There was context, it was as he stated, (paraphrased) to train his girlfriend’s dog to do something vile, extrapolating from that would suggest he finds Nazis vile. His choice of phrase was abhorrent, but I would find Holocaust denial far more concerning. Largely a huge waste of time and police resources when there are serious issues at the moment.

The obvious drawback to his argument about it being a joke and contrasting the cute animal with the vile phrase is that he didn't actually need to have trained the dog to respond to a range of phrases for his 'joke.'

[Trim0582]

Just a joke, my arse. He's a fascist arsehole, the fact that he pretends not to realise how offensive that is, and that he's having 'support' from Tommy Robinson of all people shows that. Deserves all he gets.

Not a fascist, very likely to be an arsehole, definitely not funny at all. Dangerous grounds for prosecution, that encapsulates a lot of people.

I'm not defending this guy, I really didn't find it funny at all but I am tired of people chucking about words like Nazi and Fascist. Those words still carry meaning, for now, as they should. They wont if they are thrown around every time some cretin does something you don't like.
 
I don't know the full history of his association with Tommy Robinson, but be careful if you are promoting judgement via association, you would find very few people to vote for in the Labour Party or Tory Party.

They may be strange bedfellows but I wonder which bedfellows you or I would be willing to adopt if you were looking at a possible two year custodial sentence for an prank, all bit it one that was unfunny and in very poor taste.

[Trim0582]

The obvious drawback to his argument about it being a joke and contrasting the cute animal with the vile phrase is that he didn't actually need to have trained the dog to respond to a range of phrases for his 'joke.'

Well it's a prank, not a joke, they are different and as such have differing context.

Isn't the offensive the point of it though? A dog not only doing a sieg heil, but that it was to a deliberately and excessively offensive phrase. Making the dog less cute, less likeable. I find the whole scenario odd and not worthy of the judiciary.

I'm with Pie on this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti2bVS40cz0

[ShakaHislop]

Well it's a prank, not a joke, they are different and as such have differing context.

Isn't the offensive the point of it though? A dog not only doing a sieg heil, but that it was to a deliberately and excessively offensive phrase. Making the dog less cute, less likeable. I find the whole scenario odd and not worthy of the judiciary.

I'm with Pie on this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti2bVS40cz0

Jonathan Pie defending freedom of expression, I presume?

The man who worked for RT, the state broadcaster of that beacon of freedom that is Russia?

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2016/jul/17/jonathan-pie-switches-channels-edinburgh-fringe

[SP]

Jonathan Pie defending freedom of expression, I presume?

The man who worked for RT, the state broadcaster of that beacon of freedom that is Russia?

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2016/jul/17/jonathan-pie-switches-channels-edinburgh-fringe

Straight in with the ad hom. Even a c*nt can make a reasonable defence of a position.

[Trim0582]

Jonathan Pie defending freedom of expression, I presume?

The man who worked for RT, the state broadcaster of that beacon of freedom that is Russia?

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2016/jul/17/jonathan-pie-switches-channels-edinburgh-fringe

Odd that he chose RT because they gave him more freedom and artistic control than UK TV, I think that says more about our broadcasting than it does about him.

In his words from the article you posted, did you read it?

“When I started out I had various offers and, funnily enough, RT were the ones that offered me total artistic control, which I really wanted,” Walker said. “I was perhaps a little naive, as I did not know about RT before, but it was important to me that I would not be controlled, although I had more lucrative offers.”

So now it's who you have worked for, who you are seen with, who you may associate with. The list goes on a bit doesn't it. Count Dankula is a fascist because some far right members turned up to the court appearance. Tom Walker is to be dismissed because he worked for a far left (communist) state owned TV company.

The ground is ever receeding isn't it. In fact it seems the ground is now only what the individual agrees with, everything else is fascism, or communism.

[sms1986]

Tom Walker is to be dismissed because he worked for a far left (communist) state owned TV company.

RT, and the Russian state, aren't in any way left-wing, they're probably centre-right more than anything.

[So… Howard Philips]

Trim do you really think that the current Rusian state is left wing?

Anyway exhorting a dog, however cute, to perform party tricks using "Gas the Jews" as a trigger derserves prosecution.

If you defend this loon because he posted it on YouTube surely you wouldn't defend anyone who made the same statement outside a synagogue?

[ShakaHislop]

Odd that he chose RT because they gave him more freedom and artistic control than UK TV, I think that says more about our broadcasting than it does about him.

In his words from the article you posted, did you read it?

“When I started out I had various offers and, funnily enough, RT were the ones that offered me total artistic control, which I really wanted,” Walker said. “I was perhaps a little naive, as I did not know about RT before, but it was important to me that I would not be controlled, although I had more lucrative offers.”

So now it's who you have worked for, who you are seen with, who you may associate with. The list goes on a bit doesn't it. Count Dankula is a fascist because some far right members turned up to the court appearance. Tom Walker is to be dismissed because he worked for a far left (communist) state owned TV company.

The ground is ever receeding isn't it. In fact it seems the ground is now only what the individual agrees with, everything else is fascism, or communism.

So he's happy to work for the state broadcaster of a country that doesn't afford freedom of expression to its own citizens, as long as they afford it to him. That does say something about him alright.

I believe Pie is a hypocrite on this issue, so his argument automatically loses credibility for me. And yes, it is "who you have worked for, who you are seen with, who you may associate with" You judge people on their actions and the company they keep.

[Trim0582]

Trim do you really think that the current Rusian state is left wing?

Anyway exhorting a dog, however cute, to perform party tricks using "Gas the Jews" as a trigger derserves prosecution.

If you defend this loon because he posted it on YouTube surely you wouldn't defend anyone who made the same statement outside a synagogue?

Well extreme left in genesis, yes.
It is curious the extreme left and extreme right exhibit almost exactly the same totalitarian tyranny when in power.

He didn't say it outside a synagogue though did he.
Also breaking news if my auntie had XY chromosomes she would have been my uncle, alas t'was not to be, she does have a slightly hairy lip though.

I can only assume you believe the whole prank was simply so he could say gas the Jews. Is that what you believe? If so, what about the video makes you believe that?

I don't want to defend this prank, I didn't find it funny at all, but it does not deserve prosecution.

[Trim0582]

RT, and the Russian state, aren't in any way left-wing, they're probably centre-right more than anything.

OT but.
Can you explain in meaningful terms the difference in Russia, Pre-collapse of communism and the constitutional republic it supposedly is now?

[sms1986]

OT but.
Can you explain in meaningful terms the difference in Russia, Pre-collapse of communism and the constitutional republic it supposedly is now?

I don't know enough about the subject, but the USSR was a communist country and the Russian Federation is a capitalist country. It still retains an authoritarian government but Russia has had one of those for centuries in one form or another.

[Trim0582]

So he's happy to work for the state broadcaster of a country that doesn't afford freedom of expression to its own citizens, as long as they afford it to him. That does say something about him alright.

I believe Pie is a hypocrite on this issue, so his argument automatically loses credibility for me. And yes, it is "who you have worked for, who you are seen with, who you may associate with" You judge people on their actions and the company they keep.

So not on the content of the character or the validity of their ideas?

What fine people we have on this forum. All of them having worked for ethical, fair trade companies and charities, and a life spent only ever speaking to Jainists and Buddhists.

Ironic that there is apparently more antisemitism than this in the labour party. Association and all that.

[Trim0582]

I have taken this way off topic. If anyone wishes to carry this on, PM me, so we can free this up for others.

[So… Howard Philips]

I have taken this way off topic. If anyone wishes to carry this on, PM me, so we can free this up for others.

Yeah. He's got more publicity than he deserves.

It's the dog I feel sorry for. Every time it hears "Springtime for Hitler" it'll be goose pawing around the room.