Topic: Plans to Introduce a Plastic Bottle Deposit Scheme

[clinical]

My wife shops every day and walks the 2 miles there and back to the local centre - she won't carry a bag of cans and bottles every time she goes, so I'll have to put them all in the car. The local shopping centre has an Aldi, Iceland and Sainsburys, but there is no space to put a recycling centre, so Asda will be the nearest.

As for the council, we have 4 wheely bins - blue for paper and card, black for bottles and cans, these are collected once a month. Grey is for non recyclable and is collected fortnightly. The green bin is for food and garden waste and is collected weekly, 52 weeks a year. Most green bins will have one or two bags of food waste at the most in winter, some bins don't even go out - my bin was put out every 6 weeks, yet the council still send two trucks on a Friday, one for the blue/grey/black bin and the other for the green.

Trafford is shit hot for actually providing recycling facilities at home and at the tips, yet lazy c*nts won't drive home with their litter and put it in the bin, these just lash it in the streets. I honestly cannot see 20p making a difference to these c*nts and its punishing those of us who already recycle. At 20p a bottle, we as a family are looking at £200 a year in penalties, because we home recycle via the council, rather than drive to Asda to deposit cans. There are 80 houses just in our road, we all recycle already, that's a hell of a lot of money we are being stiffed for.

There will be recycle machine in the shops, should be all shops that sell plastic bottles.

That sounds like a ridiculous number of bins which they will have to sort out and possibly change the way collections are currently done. Doesn't sound very efficient at all!
For example I have one recycle bin, a garden bin and a general waste bin. The garden bin is collected once every 2 weeks in the summer months. The general waste and recycle bins are collected once every 2 weeks all year round and works perfectly.

I think 20p a bottle will change their mentality. Not all, but a significant amount of those idiots who just throw litter about.

I can see your issues though and they will have to be considered.

[SP]

My wife shops every day and walks the 2 miles there and back to the local centre - she won't carry a bag of cans and bottles every time she goes, so I'll have to put them all in the car. The local shopping centre has an Aldi, Iceland and Sainsburys, but there is no space to put a recycling centre, so Asda will be the nearest.

This would not be optional. They would have to have deposit return facilities. That is the point of legislating for a scheme - it ensures universal adoption.

It would be interesting as to whether the Government would mandate that supermarket home deliveries also have to collect deposit bottles. If it works off barcodes, there is no pressing reason why they could not. It would assuage the fears of the lazy arses who can't carry empty bottles, but manage the full ones perfectly happily.

[SP]

Trafford is shit hot for actually providing recycling facilities at home and at the tips, yet lazy c*nts won't drive home with their litter and put it in the bin, these just lash it in the streets. I honestly cannot see 20p making a difference to these c*nts and its punishing those of us who already recycle. At 20p a bottle, we as a family are looking at £200 a year in penalties, because we home recycle via the council, rather than drive to Asda to deposit cans. There are 80 houses just in our road, we all recycle already, that's a hell of a lot of money we are being stiffed for.

20p a bottle would make a huge difference for the local kids. 50 bottles for a packet of fags, they will be all over that. Arseholes will be arseholes, but once the scheme kicks in, I would be very surprised if you see many deposit bottles lying around. 

[clinical]

This would not be optional. They would have to have deposit return facilities. That is the point of legislating for a scheme - it ensures universal adoption.

It would be interesting as to whether the Government would mandate that supermarket home deliveries also have to collect deposit bottles. If it works off barcodes, there is no pressing reason why they could not. It would assuage the fears of the lazy arses who can't carry empty bottles, but manage the full ones perfectly happily.

Ocado do this will plastic bags already. I really don't see the issue other than may take up space in their vans.

[rob1966]

Not only does it create an incentive for people to recycle their empties, but it also creates an incentive for others to pick up after the recalcitrant litterers.

It does for those who don't already recycle, but for the millions who already do at home, then it is a punishment. If everyone in our road decides fuck this I'm not using the council service anymore, I'm taking my bottles back to the Asda, that's a potential 80 additional car journeys, if that happens across Trafford, that's thousands of needless journeys. For me, some kind of system needs to be introduced to ensure that by making one change for the positive and I am all for anything that helps the environment, we cannot create a new negative environmental issue.

I'll deffo encourage my kids to pick up empty cans and bottles though, we used to do it as kids and take the lemo bottles to the van to get the money back for sweets, they will do it if they know they are making money on it.

[SP]

Ocado do this will plastic bags already. I really don't see the issue other than may take up space in their vans.

Tesco do as well.  It would be very unusual if the bottles were bigger that the shop arriving - and Tesco could put common sense limits in the amount they would take per visit. I suppose the time to scan each item may be significant.

[rob1966]

This would not be optional. They would have to have deposit return facilities. That is the point of legislating for a scheme - it ensures universal adoption.

It would be interesting as to whether the Government would mandate that supermarket home deliveries also have to collect deposit bottles. If it works off barcodes, there is no pressing reason why they could not. It would assuage the fears of the lazy arses who can't carry empty bottles, but manage the full ones perfectly happily.

Seeing as she walks to the shops every day, the last thing I would call my missus is a lazy arse.

[rob1966]

Tesco do as well.  It would be very unusual if the bottles were bigger that the shop arriving - and Tesco could put common sense limits in the amount they would take per visit. I suppose the time to scan each item may be significant.

I cannot see any reason why they cannot do it - when we take the full cages to the stores (mainly the chilled from Widnes), we bring back packaging from the stores for recycling in the HGV's, so I cannot see why the dot com lads cannot do this on the deliveries.

[Craig S]

My wife shops every day and walks the 2 miles there and back to the local centre - she won't carry a bag of cans and bottles every time she goes, so I'll have to put them all in the car. The local shopping centre has an Aldi, Iceland and Sainsburys, but there is no space to put a recycling centre, so Asda will be the nearest.

It's not a recycling centre! Have you actually seen the machines they use in Germany? They are the size of a vending machine that crushes them down. They are then stored in the shops storeroom/warehouse. My local Netto in Germany had one and that was the size of a small co-op. As did my local Rewe that was about the same size. It can fit in a convenience store sized shop. Your local shopping centre would likely have one in each of those stores, Iceland, Sainsburys and Aldi.

[Elmo!]

In an ideal world they would be able to count the bottles in your regular recycling bin and credit you after each collection - seems technically unfeasable though.

[Elmo!]

Those over a certain age will remember we used to do this with glass bottles.

We were still able to do this until very recently in Scotland with AG Barr's 750ml glass bottles of Irn Bru and their other drinks. They raised the deposit to 30p but stopped it quite shortly after that as it still wasn't cost effective.

[SP]

In an ideal world they would be able to count the bottles in your regular recycling bin and credit you after each collection - seems technically unfeasable though.

That would be an open invitation for theft of the recycling when you put it out.

[Elmo!]

That would be an open invitation for theft of the recycling when you put it out.

Yeah, just one reason why I said it was unfeasible. Maybe give bins with locked lids and the brush covered holes like the ones at the supermarket. Still doesn't address how they efficiently count them for each household.

[clinical]

It does for those who don't already recycle, but for the millions who already do at home, then it is a punishment. If everyone in our road decides fuck this I'm not using the council service anymore, I'm taking my bottles back to the Asda, that's a potential 80 additional car journeys, if that happens across Trafford, that's thousands of needless journeys. For me, some kind of system needs to be introduced to ensure that by making one change for the positive and I am all for anything that helps the environment, we cannot create a new negative environmental issue.

I'll deffo encourage my kids to pick up empty cans and bottles though, we used to do it as kids and take the lemo bottles to the van to get the money back for sweets, they will do it if they know they are making money on it.

How often would you need to drop the bottles off?

And secondly out of the 80 potential journeys how many would be driving to the shop anyway?

You know you can coincide the drop off with doing something else or if you are heading that way for another purpose.

[rob1966]

In an ideal world they would be able to count the bottles in your regular recycling bin and credit you after each collection - seems technically unfeasable though.

Why not a bar code reader app on your phone, like myfitnesspal has? You could scan and upload each time you bought a can or bottle and then scan it again as you recycled it. They could run random automated checks at the recycling centre to ensure that the bottle/can arrived there.

It's not a recycling centre! Have you actually seen the machines they use in Germany? They are the size of a vending machine that crushes them down. They are then stored in the shops storeroom/warehouse. My local Netto in Germany had one and that was the size of a small co-op. As did my local Rewe that was about the same size. It can fit in a convenience store sized shop. Your local shopping centre would likely have one in each of those stores, Iceland, Sainsburys and Aldi.

That's ace then, can get rid of those coin star machines to make the space if needed.

[rob1966]

How often would you need to drop the bottles off?

And secondly out of the 80 potential journeys how many would be driving to the shop anyway?

You know you can coincide the drop off with doing something else or if you are heading that way for another purpose.

I'd have to do it twice a month I expect, once when I go for fuel and then an extra journey, either that or she has to take cans every day.

As for our road, its a mixed back of people who walk, home deliveries, older people who get stuff dropped off by relatives and people who drive.

[24/7]

It works. Period. It's been running for years in Sweden and other Nordic nations.

It's not a tax.

You won't have to go to the same place you bought it from in the first place in order to get the cash back, the re-deposit scheme should be national and not restricted to Tesco or Asda or wherever - all bottles/cans should be accepted by the machines. That's assuming the government and the stores do it properly.......

It's also an incentive to clear up. Experience teaches us that mindset changes come about more efficiently when people see a tangible benefit for them. Ideally the intrinsic benefits should be enough but this is an extrinsic one, so more likely to work and more quickly too.

There's not one single negative I can think of for this scheme.

Oh and - https://www.facebook.com/jimsharman.letsdoitworld.5

And also there is a related cleanup scheme running globally, to address the wider issue of trash and plastic pollution - https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=339385

[rafathegaffa83]

How often would you need to drop the bottles off?

Surely most people would just drop them off the next time they went to the supermarket? Tossing them in a crate in the back of a car with reusable shopping bags. In Canada, people return their wine and beer bottles when getting another case of beer. That way all the empty bottles go back in their original case that can be recycled. The proposed method described in this thread and used in Germany offers a higher rate of return than the model in most Canadian provinces without having the rigmarole associated with dividing clear, coloured and brown bottles. What's not to like about it? It's not a tax, it's an incentive

[24/7]

Return them as and when you choose, that's the way. Most places I saw in Sweden had two or three 'banks' so if you happen to be stuck behind someone returning a huge bin bag full of bottles, and you're returning just one coke bottle, you won't have to wait too long.

The idea is that the machine scans the bar code and prints a coupon to the value of the return, which then becomes a discount voucher at the cash register when you next go shopping.

It couldn't be simpler.

Just don't crush your cans or remove the labels off the plastic bottles or you won't get yer cash back!

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Just don't crush your cans or remove the labels off the plastic bottles or you won't get yer cash back!

So it makes it easier to recycle

 

[rob1966]

It works. Period. It's been running for years in Sweden and other Nordic nations.

It's not a tax.

You won't have to go to the same place you bought it from in the first place in order to get the cash back, the re-deposit scheme should be national and not restricted to Tesco or Asda or wherever - all bottles/cans should be accepted by the machines. That's assuming the government and the stores do it properly.......

It's also an incentive to clear up. Experience teaches us that mindset changes come about more efficiently when people see a tangible benefit for them. Ideally the intrinsic benefits should be enough but this is an extrinsic one, so more likely to work and more quickly too.

There's not one single negative I can think of for this scheme.

Oh and - https://www.facebook.com/jimsharman.letsdoitworld.5

And also there is a related cleanup scheme running globally, to address the wider issue of trash and plastic pollution - https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=339385

I'm not being deliberately awkward and I love the idea of cleaning this shit up off our planet. However, as I live in a borough that already heavily recycles at home, I can see plenty of downsides.

IF a high percentage of people in Trafford decide to stop using the current recycling facilities at home and then take their stuff to the shops (regardless of how or when), they you are going to overwhelm the machines quite quickly. Then you are just moving the stuff from our bins to the local shops. You are then adding the use of electricity to power the machines and the additional HGV's needed to go and collect the stuff from the shops. You also need to continue the current recycling collections to empty the bins of those who do not decide the get their deposits back.

It deffo needs introducing and I welcome it, but they need to put in place schemes for those of us who are already heavily recycling, so that they don't create alternative issues and added expense for us responsible people.

[DutchRed]

Oh good. Hopefully, it becomes more like Germany where Pfand is just part of everyday life. At gigs, football matches, even in some bars/beer gardens it makes a difference with less shite everywhere.

On top of that it helps homeless people make a bit of money during football as well as they'll often stand outside stadiums with shopping trolleys where people can chuck their bottles/cans. If done properly, i.e. installing more than enough places to return the bottles, I can't see any argument on why you wouldn't introduce such a scheme. Works perfectly in Holland too. 95% of bottles are returned, it doesn't cost anybody a penny and you just drop them off at any supermarket.

[CheshireDave]

You also need to continue the current recycling collections to empty the bins of those who do not decide the get their deposits back.

And for paper, other plastic items, card and tin cans.

Will this apply to all plastic bottles? ie Milk bottles, shampoo, washing up liquid etc - if not why are they exempt? I imagine millions and millions of milk bottles are disposed of each day.

I am hoping this is just for drinking bottles as I can probably count on two hands the amount of those I buy a year and I can just continue recycling at home like I have been encouraged to do for the last however many years.

[24/7]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/LdiwKnowledge/permalink/2093321607350260/


"UK moving towards Deposit-Refund Systems on all beverage containers as a key tool to minimise losses and littering.

There's already impressive evidence of how such systems cause a dramatic reduction of littering for the targeted items."

Links to a great article in the Grauniad

[telekon]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-43563164

I for one think this is a brilliant idea. I have seen it in both Germany and Canada.

Not only does it reduce plastic waste which is good for everything. It allow the homeless to actually earn a bit of money collecting plastic bottles they find (just wait till the Tories take any benefits away).

Can't believe it's taken this long for us to introduce something like this.

The negatives I heard is what about old people who can't go to return the bottles etc. Well hang on someone managed to go to the supermarket to get the bottle in the first place so they can easily return it. And if the shopping was delivered surely they can come up with a return on the delivery lorry next time it comes. Similar to what Ocado do with plastic bags.

Anyway very happy this decision has been made, absolutely sick of seeing people just throwing bottles on the floor.

We've had this system for plastic bottles since 1994. What took you so long?

[thejbs]

In an ideal world they would be able to count the bottles in your regular recycling bin and credit you after each collection - seems technically unfeasable though.

Something for blockchain to sort out

[24/7]

I'm not being deliberately awkward and I love the idea of cleaning this shit up off our planet. However, as I live in a borough that already heavily recycles at home, I can see plenty of downsides.

It's okay, you're not coming across as awkward - rather than downsides, I see these as understandable concerns. It's a matter of scaling up - and, as you say, "responsible people" should not feel cut out of the loop per se. The machines I've seen crush the cans and plastic bottles anyway and that reduces space taken. The rest is logistics. As for the machines being overwhelmed, I can see that too - so the scheme again needs to appreciate the scale. Power concerns - I don't know the specifics but I am led to understand that they are energy-efficient and there's an opportunity to feed them from renewable sources - like anything else can be.

Not downsides but challenges - if the will is there and the organisation is effective, you, the "responsible person" should not feel overlooked or side-stepped or anything like that.

This scheme has the great potential to be part of a joined-up process aimed at reducing waste and specifically the perniciousness of plastic pollution.

[Elmo!]

You are then adding the use of electricity to power the machines

In Aberdeen city centre the street bins for rubbish have solar panels which power the crusher so they fit more rubbish in and don't need to be emptied so often (reduces fuel used by bin lorries). Could do the same with these.

[clinical]

We've had this system for plastic bottles since 1994. What took you so long?

Mate we have people who voted for Brexit. I think that answers your question.





Thanks for the extra links, interesting reading.

I think once people get their head around the idea and make the adjustment they will realise what a good incentive it is.

[kavah]

Great idea. And it's good to have a discussion about the true cost (life cycle analysis/cradle to grave isn't it called?)

I think most of these bottles can be recycled  - good news

One of the reverse vending machines

[rob1966]

It's okay, you're not coming across as awkward - rather than downsides, I see these as understandable concerns. It's a matter of scaling up - and, as you say, "responsible people" should not feel cut out of the loop per se. The machines I've seen crush the cans and plastic bottles anyway and that reduces space taken. The rest is logistics. As for the machines being overwhelmed, I can see that too - so the scheme again needs to appreciate the scale. Power concerns - I don't know the specifics but I am led to understand that they are energy-efficient and there's an opportunity to feed them from renewable sources - like anything else can be.

Not downsides but challenges - if the will is there and the organisation is effective, you, the "responsible person" should not feel overlooked or side-stepped or anything like that.

This scheme has the great potential to be part of a joined-up process aimed at reducing waste and specifically the perniciousness of plastic pollution.

As a software developer working on our companies systems, whenever I make a change, I always look at what the knock on affects are and try to not introduce bugs into the system where none exist, so that's where my train of thought comes from.

In Aberdeen city centre the street bins for rubbish have solar panels which power the crusher so they fit more rubbish in and don't need to be emptied so often (reduces fuel used by bin lorries). Could do the same with these.

According to the BBC, of the 13 billion of these items sold, 3.5 billion do not get recycled, so anything that helps to reduce that has to be welcomed with open arms. However, there are currently 8.5 billion that ARE recycled, so that is adding a total cost of £1.7 billion to these people. Now what does need to  be taken into consideration is that, if these people now move from the current method of recycling to the deposit refund scheme, this is going to require the manufacture of millions of bins and solar panels (for example), so there is a big start up cost, both in purchase but also the obtaining and transporting of the raw materials and the production and shipping/installation etc.

Therefore, the scheme needs to try, as much as possible, to retain the current recycling for the 8.5 billion bottles and then be used mainly for the recycling of the extra 3.5 billion.

I'd also like to see a system brought in, where you log each bar code to a purchaser and then, if that bar code turns up from roadside cleanups, the originator fined for littering.

[Elmo!]

I'd also like to see a system brought in, where you log each bar code to a purchaser and then, if that bar code turns up from roadside cleanups, the originator fined for littering.

Problem is barcodes are not unique to each individual item, only to each product. It would require using RFID chips in products, or maybe it's possible with QR codes. Eitehr way it's a complete redesign of the whole packaging industry.

[clinical]

As a software developer working on our companies systems, whenever I make a change, I always look at what the knock on affects are and try to not introduce bugs into the system where none exist, so that's where my train of thought comes from.

According to the BBC, of the 13 billion of these items sold, 3.5 billion do not get recycled, so anything that helps to reduce that has to be welcomed with open arms. However, there are currently 8.5 billion that ARE recycled, so that is adding a total cost of £1.7 billion to these people. Now what does need to  be taken into consideration is that, if these people now move from the current method of recycling to the deposit refund scheme, this is going to require the manufacture of millions of bins and solar panels (for example), so there is a big start up cost, both in purchase but also the obtaining and transporting of the raw materials and the production and shipping/installation etc.

Therefore, the scheme needs to try, as much as possible, to retain the current recycling for the 8.5 billion bottles and then be used mainly for the recycling of the extra 3.5 billion.

I'd also like to see a system brought in, where you log each bar code to a purchaser and then, if that bar code turns up from roadside cleanups, the originator fined for littering.

Any initial cost will be offset of people who can't be arsed to change their ways. But this way least they are getting charged for it which can go towards paying these costs.

I appreciate what you are saying and there will definitely be some obstacles to overcome but there will also be ways round them if it's thought out well.

[Craig S]

According to the BBC, of the 13 billion of these items sold, 3.5 billion do not get recycled, so anything that helps to reduce that has to be welcomed with open arms. However, there are currently 8.5 billion that ARE recycled, so that is adding a total cost of £1.7 billion to these people.

No it isn't. That would only work if no one adapted and continued to put their plastics into the recycling. I recycle all my plastic bottles, but would instantly change.

I used it when I lived in Germany with no issues. I would actually feel better about using these as I would know they are getting recycled, rather than going to potential landfill. Currently contaminated recycling ends up in landfill/burnt as it is too expensive to separate from the stuff that can be recycled. This can be unwashed tins, tetrapak mixed in with other recyling, tops left on certain milk bottles.

[PaulF]

Tesco do as well.  It would be very unusual if the bottles were bigger that the shop arriving - and Tesco could put common sense limits in the amount they would take per visit. I suppose the time to scan each item may be significant.

Damn, my Tory ways had already considered be a collection point where I could rob other people's plastic bottles to return.

No doubt there will be some teething problems (probably because the govn't will refuse to look at how it works or not in other countries and are too busy with brexit). But the for the vast majority it should be fine.

For me though, it's the next step in the change in attitudes. There were objections to the plastic bags, now that's settled we've gone for a bigger target. Not sure what will be next, but quite possibly it's something bigger. Something that could never have happened when we still had chuckaway plastic bags.  Is Gove supporting this one, seems unlikely he's gotten something right.

ps- do the bottles have to be 'clean' to be returned.
pps - might start a line in home bottle crushing equipment...

[clinical]

Damn, my Tory ways had already considered be a collection point where I could rob other people's plastic bottles to return.

No doubt there will be some teething problems (probably because the govn't will refuse to look at how it works or not in other countries and are too busy with brexit). But the for the vast majority it should be fine.

For me though, it's the next step in the change in attitudes. There were objections to the plastic bags, now that's settled we've gone for a bigger target. Not sure what will be next, but quite possibly it's something bigger. Something that could never have happened when we still had chuckaway plastic bags.  Is Gove supporting this one, seems unlikely he's gotten something right.

ps- do the bottles have to be 'clean' to be returned.
pps - might start a line in home bottle crushing equipment...

Gove is simply trying to get good press at the minute. Bet he's never recycled anything is his life.

[So… Howard Philips]

Gove is simply trying to get good press at the minute. Bet he's never recycled anything is his life.

I can imagine Gove is the type of bloke who really loves sorting his waste into respective bins, and the he'll sort his pencils and other desk impedimenta into order.

Just looks a real swot - not to demonise all other recyclers.

[clinical]

I can imagine Gove is the type of bloke who really loves sorting his waste into respective bins, and the he'll sort his pencils and other desk impedimenta into order.

Just looks a real swot - not to demonise all other recyclers.

But then chucks it all into one bin anyway whilst laughing to himself whilst whispering peasants under his breath.

[Nobby Reserve]

I'm going to start stocking up my empties now to cash-in when the scheme starts.

[24/7]

Gove is simply trying to get good press at the minute. Bet he's never recycled anything is his life.

Perhaps his own saliva, the fucking lizard.....