Topic: General Political discussion with kesey-style vibes & tantric breathing stuff...

[ShakaHislop]

A Labour MP has blamed protests at the school gates on a primary school head who is teaching her pupils about same-sex marriage, and said he would object if his young grandson were learning about gay rights.

Roger Godsiff, the MP for Birmingham, Hall Green, said that children of four and five were too young to be taught about LGBT equality and he supported the right of parents to protest outside Anderton Park Primary School.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/head-is-wrong-to-teach-pupils-about-gay-rights-says-mp-dwcm2xbrv

No, that is not a typo. It actually is a LABOUR MP who said that. Quick look at his Wikipedia reveals "In 2011, The Guardian declared that based on his participation in votes, Godsiff was "Britain's laziest MP", being absent from 88% of votes at the start of that year".

Birmingham LGBT school row: MP Roger Godsiff given warning

A Labour MP has been warned not to repeat comments in support of protesters in a row over LGBT teaching.

Campaigners had been gathering outside Anderton Park Primary School in Birmingham to argue children were too young to learn about same-sex relationships.

Hall Green MP Roger Godsiff has been formally reprimanded after he was seen in a video agreeing with protesters.

The MP, whose constituency covers the school, has been contacted for comment.

Protests have been taking place outside the school for weeks, with parents saying the teachings contradicted Islam.

Mr Godsiff, who previously said the equality sessions were not "age appropriate", was seen in a video telling lead organiser Shakeel Afsar the protesters had "just cause".

Shadow Education Secretary Angela Rayner said she had reported the comments to the chief whip, Nick Brown.

The Labour Party said it has "long supported and campaigned for LGBT+ inclusive education in schools."

"To teach children about relationships and omit the fact that LGBT+ couples exist is fundamentally discriminatory," it said.

"Roger Godsiff's comments do not reflect the Labour Party's position in any way and his behaviour falls below the standards expected of a Labour MP.

"He has been formally reprimanded by the chief whip and has been warned that he must not repeat such conduct in the future."

Mr Godsiff's stance also drew criticism from constituents, including comedian Joe Lycett.

He wrote a widely shared open letter to the MP asking him what he was doing "to make LGBT people...feel like they aren't being treated as second class citizens".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-48636059

[Libertine]

Birmingham LGBT school row: MP Roger Godsiff given warning

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-48636059

Anti-Semite? Homophobe? "Reprimanded" by the chief whip.

Vote Lib Dem? Immediate expulsion.

The Labour Party 2019.

[filopastry]

Yougov are definitely out of whack with the other pollsters at present, although they did better than most for the European Elections.

Westminster Voting Intention:

BXP: 26% (=)
LDM: 22% (+2)
LAB: 19% (-1)
CON: 17% (-1)
GRN: 8% (-1)
TIG: 1% (+1)
UKIP: 0% (-1)

Via @YouGov, 9-10 Jun.
Changes w/ 5-6 Jun.

[oldfordie]

Yougov are definitely out of whack with the other pollsters at present, although they did better than most for the European Elections.

Westminster Voting Intention:

BXP: 26% (=)
LDM: 22% (+2)
LAB: 19% (-1)
CON: 17% (-1)
GRN: 8% (-1)
TIG: 1% (+1)
UKIP: 0% (-1)

Via @YouGov, 9-10 Jun.
Changes w/ 5-6 Jun.

Shocking and this is just a English poll. add the SNP.etc and the Tories and Labour vote share would drop even more.

[ShakaHislop]

Ofsted sounds warning over outstanding schools

Ofsted has called for the resumption of routine checks on outstanding schools, after 80% of those it re-inspected due to specific issues were downgraded.

England's schools standards watchdog re-inspected 305 schools rated outstanding, after concerns were raised about falling standards.

It said 256 lost their top-level rating as a result.

In 2011, inspectors were stopped from carrying out routine inspections of these top-rated schools.

The move, during Fuckwitted Pob lookalike Michael Gove's time as England's Education Secretary, aimed to focus resources on the worst-performing schools but was criticised at the time, as it meant hundreds of schools would not be checked at all.

Last year, Ofsted highlighted the issue, saying that as some schools had not been inspected for a decade or more, there was a chance their ratings no longer truly reflected standards at the school.

It has been lobbying ministers to reinstate routine inspections every six years for primary and every five or seven years for secondary schools.

Among the 305 "outstanding" schools inspected this year:

    166 were judged to be good
    76 were found to require improvement
    14 were rated inadequate
    49 retained their outstanding grade

Ofsted chief inspector Amanda Spielman said: "The fact that outstanding schools are largely exempt from inspection leaves us with real gaps in our knowledge about the quality of education and safeguarding in these schools.

"Some of them have not been inspected for over a decade, and when our inspectors go back in, they sometimes find standards have significantly declined.

"We believe most schools judged outstanding are still doing outstanding work.

"But for the outstanding grade to be properly meaningful and a genuine beacon of excellence, the exemption should be lifted and Ofsted resourced to routinely inspect these schools."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-48635078

Well, they're not if that sample of 305 is anything to go by.

The Department of Education seems to be an eternal basketcase.

[TepidT2O]

Ofsted sounds warning over outstanding schools

Ofsted has called for the resumption of routine checks on outstanding schools, after 80% of those it re-inspected due to specific issues were downgraded.

England's schools standards watchdog re-inspected 305 schools rated outstanding, after concerns were raised about falling standards.

It said 256 lost their top-level rating as a result.

In 2011, inspectors were stopped from carrying out routine inspections of these top-rated schools.

The move, during Fuckwitted Pob lookalike Fuckwitted Pob lookalike Michael Gove's time as England's Education Secretary, aimed to focus resources on the worst-performing schools but was criticised at the time, as it meant hundreds of schools would not be checked at all.

Last year, Ofsted highlighted the issue, saying that as some schools had not been inspected for a decade or more, there was a chance their ratings no longer truly reflected standards at the school.

It has been lobbying ministers to reinstate routine inspections every six years for primary and every five or seven years for secondary schools.

Among the 305 "outstanding" schools inspected this year:

    166 were judged to be good
    76 were found to require improvement
    14 were rated inadequate
    49 retained their outstanding grade

Ofsted chief inspector Amanda Spielman said: "The fact that outstanding schools are largely exempt from inspection leaves us with real gaps in our knowledge about the quality of education and safeguarding in these schools.

"Some of them have not been inspected for over a decade, and when our inspectors go back in, they sometimes find standards have significantly declined.

"We believe most schools judged outstanding are still doing outstanding work.

"But for the outstanding grade to be properly meaningful and a genuine beacon of excellence, the exemption should be lifted and Ofsted resourced to routinely inspect these schools."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-48635078

Well, they're not if that sample of 305 is anything to go by.

The Department of Education seems to be an eternal basketcase.

They will only have been inspected is they were deemed at risk in the first place.

That could be a complaint (or series of complaints) or a significant decrease in results.

Not really a surprise so many changed on that case.

[Trada]

Yougov are definitely out of whack with the other pollsters at present, although they did better than most for the European Elections.

Westminster Voting Intention:

BXP: 26% (=)
LDM: 22% (+2)
LAB: 19% (-1)
CON: 17% (-1)
GRN: 8% (-1)
TIG: 1% (+1)
UKIP: 0% (-1)

Via @YouGov, 9-10 Jun.
Changes w/ 5-6 Jun.

Polls mean nothing right now I bet you in a month or so's time when Boris becomes the leader YouGov will suddenly have the Tories on about 40% a bit like when May became leader they had a big bounce for a while.

[filopastry]

Polls mean nothing right now I bet you in a month or so's time when Boris becomes the leader YouGov will suddenly have the Tories on about 40% a bit like when May became leader they had a big bounce for a while.

There probably will be a new leader bounce for the Tories, even though Johnson is more divisive than most, you would still expect him to have some success goign after the Brexit vote.

[Elmo!]

Shocking and this is just a English poll. add the SNP.etc and the Tories and Labour vote share would drop even more.

It is UK wide, they have just put all the other parties under other.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/0crw8ssin8/TimesResults_190610_VI_w.pdf

[oldfordie]

It is UK wide, they have just put all the other parties under other.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/0crw8ssin8/TimesResults_190610_VI_w.pdf

Thanks. I was wondering if that was the case later.

[Alan_X]

Yougov are definitely out of whack with the other pollsters at present, although they did better than most for the European Elections.

Westminster Voting Intention:

BXP: 26% (=)
LDM: 22% (+2)
LAB: 19% (-1)
CON: 17% (-1)
GRN: 8% (-1)
TIG: 1% (+1)
UKIP: 0% (-1)

Via @YouGov, 9-10 Jun.
Changes w/ 5-6 Jun.

How is pandering to the Brexit vote going then Jezza?

This is a political genius at work. Leavers gravitating to the Brexit Party (who’d have guessed), Remainers gravitating to the Lib Dems. The Tories about to select a mini-Trump as the next Prime Minister, a no-deal Brexit the most likely outcome...

He’s playing a blinder.

“Alan, why do you have such an irrational dislike of Jeremy Corbyn?...”

[Alan_X]

Polls mean nothing right now I bet you in a month or so's time when Boris becomes the leader YouGov will suddenly have the Tories on about 40% a bit like when May became leader they had a big bounce for a while.

She got a bounce and then fucked it up by being useless.  It cost her the 2017 election didn’t it?

Oh wait....

Those figures are broadly in line with the EU elections so are pretty credible.

And here’s a thing you may not have picked up: loads of ex Labour voters on here saying they’ll vote Lib Dem because of Corbyn’s stance on Brexit. And surprise, surprise, Labour are down and the Lib Dems are up. Tory voters believe their party hasn’t delivered Brexit and surprise, surprise, the Tories are down and BP is up.

There may be a regression to the mean and voters changing their mind in the voting booth but those figures should be a massive kick up the bracket for the Labour leadership.

I’m sure they’ll clutch at the straws of 2017 and hope that being unbelievably shite in the lead up to an election will automatically lead to a bump in the polls. In fact they are so dimwitted that they probably think that the worse they are, the better they’ll perform.

[Mutton Geoff]

How is pandering to the Brexit vote going then Jezza?

This is a political genius at work. Leavers gravitating to the Brexit Party (who’d have guessed), Remainers gravitating to the Lib Dems. The Tories about to select a mini-Trump as the next Prime Minister, a no-deal Brexit the most likely outcome...

He’s playing a blinder.

“Alan, why do you have such an irrational dislike of Jeremy Corbyn?...”

And when the Tories get elected yet again in the next GE will you be happy? 

Seems you love wallowing in the problems now which are not going to be solved by Corbyn standing down, in fact to put it straight the constant negative stuff from people such as yourself is doing as much damage as the leadership is.

I could even put it that you are a perfect example of why this party should split apart right now,  far too many people dont really give a shit about the state of this country they just want their dream of a perfect leader who suits their narrow viewpoint of how this party should be led. Sort of anyone but Corbyn and all the rest of the left of the party.

Why not Liz Kendall then ?

And in the end there are fuck all challengers coming up to take over anytime soon.

So just carry on destroying what's left of the party

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Yes it is traditional Labour voters who are causing the problems,not the far left loons who insist on calling each other comrades or the people who are not traditional Labour voters who came into the party and from the off started calling anybody who didn't agree with Corbyn Blairites and pushing for them to be kicked out of the party.

Yeah sure,you go with that.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

She got a bounce and then fucked it up by being useless.  It cost her the 2017 election didn’t it?

Oh wait....

Those figures are broadly in line with the EU elections so are pretty credible.

And here’s a thing you may not have picked up: loads of ex Labour voters on here saying they’ll vote Lib Dem because of Corbyn’s stance on Brexit. And surprise, surprise, Labour are down and the Lib Dems are up. Tory voters believe their party hasn’t delivered Brexit and surprise, surprise, the Tories are down and BP is up.

There may be a regression to the mean and voters changing their mind in the voting booth but those figures should be a massive kick up the bracket for the Labour leadership.

I’m sure they’ll clutch at the straws of 2017 and hope that being unbelievably shite in the lead up to an election will automatically lead to a bump in the polls. In fact they are so dimwitted that they probably think that the worse they are, the better they’ll perform.

one big difference between the Tory and labour situation is a lot of those pissed off tories who say they will vote BP probably will either go back to the Tories or stay at home for a GE, with labour/Lib dems that won’t be the case so much

[Trada]

Yes it is traditional Labour voters who are causing the problems,not the far left loons who insist on calling each other comrades or the people who are not traditional Labour voters who came into the party and from the off started calling anybody who didn't agree with Corbyn Blairites and pushing for them to be kicked out of the party.

Yeah sure,you go with that.

I guess when people talk of traditional Labour voters they must mean pre Blair because after Blair Labour wasn't really Labour again until Jeremy became leader.

If only John Smith hadn't passed away the World would be a different place right now.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

I guess when people talk of traditional Labour voters they must mean pre Blair because after Blair Labour wasn't really Labour again until Jeremy became leader.

If only John Smith hadn't passed away the World would be a different place right now.

The Labour that gave us decades of Thatcher,that Labour ?  And now because of the likes of you who never voted Labour but are arse deep into the cult of Corbyn we're set for another decade of those c*nts.

Corbyn has never really been anything of note,just another career politician,one that thinks going full on Chavista is what this country needs.

[Mutton Geoff]

I guess when people talk of traditional Labour voters they must mean pre Blair because after Blair Labour wasn't really Labour again until Jeremy became leader.

If only John Smith hadn't passed away the World would be a different place right now.

That last sentence is spot on , the biggest tragedy for the party and the country was John Smith's death,

Its also quite funny that people come out with this traditional labour voters crap think that is just a mirror image of them and their narrow viewpoints.

[Mutton Geoff]

The Labour that gave us decades of Thatcher,that Labour ?  And now because of the likes of you who never voted Labour but are arse deep into the cult of Corbyn we're set for another decade of those c*nts.

Corbyn has never really been anything of note,just another career politician,one that thinks going full on Chavista is what this country needs.

You mean Thatcher that Blair admired and invited back to number 10, as for the Thatcher years were you even alive then?

[TepidT2O]

I guess when people talk of traditional Labour voters they must mean pre Blair because after Blair Labour wasn't really Labour again until Jeremy became leader.

If only John Smith hadn't passed away the World would be a different place right now.

A world in which...

We reduced average hospital waiting times from 13 weeks to 4 weeks
44000 new doctors, 80000 more nurses
50000 new teachers, 200000 teaching assistants to let teachers concentrate on improving kids learning

A 60% increase in the numbers of children gaining 5A*-C at GCSE

The percentage of pensioners in poverty went from about 25% to around -5%
The percentage of children in poverty went from about 27% to around 15%
Indeed the country had the biggest rise in social mobility of any developed country during that period.

The poorest 10% gained by over 12% of income, the next poorest 10%, the richest 10% lost by nearly 10%

We trebled aid to third world countries
We set up the EHRC to stop the scourge of racism and discrimination in our society

This last labour government made the biggest difference to lives of any government since 1945.

So shove your pious pile of rancid Marxist wank hat wearing shite up your arse.

You’re backing a guy who will decrease living standards for the poorest 20% by the disastrous policy of brexit.

You’re backing a guy who is so racist he’s being investigated by the very same EHRC.

Your supporting a guy who actively supported the British communist party, the socialist workers party and counts holocaust deniers amongst his ‘good friends’

As such, I will treat your opinion with the utter contempt it deserves.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

A world in which...

We reduced average hospital waiting times from 13 weeks to 4 weeks
44000 new doctors, 80000 more nurses
50000 new teachers, 200000 teaching assistants to let teachers concentrate on improving kids learning

A 60% increase in the numbers of children gaining 5A*-C at GCSE

The percentage of pensioners in poverty went from about 25% to around -5%
The percentage of children in poverty went from about 27% to around 15%
Indeed the country had the biggest rise in social mobility of any developed country during that period.

The poorest 10% gained by over 12% of income, the next poorest 10%, the richest 10% lost by nearly 10%

We trebled aid to third world countries
We set up the EHRC to stop the scourge of racism and discrimination in our society

This last labour government made the biggest difference to lives of any government since 1945.

So shove your pious pile of rancid Marxist wank hat wearing shite up your arse.

You’re backing a guy who will decrease living standards for the poorest 20% by the disastrous policy of brexit.

You’re backing a guy who is so racist he’s being investigated by the very same EHRC.

Your supporting a guy who actively supported the British communist party, the socialist workers party and counts holocaust deniers amongst his ‘good friends’

As such, I will treat your opinion with the utter contempt it deserves.

That list means nothing to them,I can remember posting a long,long list of all the good that Labour did and they just come back with but,but the war.

[Millie]

A world in which...

We reduced average hospital waiting times from 13 weeks to 4 weeks
44000 new doctors, 80000 more nurses
50000 new teachers, 200000 teaching assistants to let teachers concentrate on improving kids learning

A 60% increase in the numbers of children gaining 5A*-C at GCSE

The percentage of pensioners in poverty went from about 25% to around -5%
The percentage of children in poverty went from about 27% to around 15%
Indeed the country had the biggest rise in social mobility of any developed country during that period.

The poorest 10% gained by over 12% of income, the next poorest 10%, the richest 10% lost by nearly 10%

We trebled aid to third world countries
We set up the EHRC to stop the scourge of racism and discrimination in our society

This last labour government made the biggest difference to lives of any government since 1945.

So shove your pious pile of rancid Marxist wank hat wearing shite up your arse.

You’re backing a guy who will decrease living standards for the poorest 20% by the disastrous policy of brexit.

You’re backing a guy who is so racist he’s being investigated by the very same EHRC.

Your supporting a guy who actively supported the British communist party, the socialist workers party and counts holocaust deniers amongst his ‘good friends’

As such, I will treat your opinion with the utter contempt it deserves.

Well said.

[Skeeve]

And when the Tories get elected yet again in the next GE will you be happy? 

Seems you love wallowing in the problems now which are not going to be solved by Corbyn standing down, in fact to put it straight the constant negative stuff from people such as yourself is doing as much damage as the leadership is.

I could even put it that you are a perfect example of why this party should split apart right now,  far too many people dont really give a shit about the state of this country they just want their dream of a perfect leader who suits their narrow viewpoint of how this party should be led. Sort of anyone but Corbyn and all the rest of the left of the party.

Why not Liz Kendall then ?

And in the end there are fuck all challengers coming up to take over anytime soon.

So just carry on destroying what's left of the party

Nobody except the fucking tories will be happy when they win the next election and while Corbyn won't be the only reason, the continuing labour policy of treating the vast majority of their remain-voting voters with contempt is what will cause that to happen.

Corbyn standing down won't fix all or even many problems, any change in leadership would need to be accompanied with a shift to a strong remain position that more accurately represents the views of 80% of labour voters.

The idea that people having their valid complaints ignored by the labour leadership are to blame for the sorry state of the parties standing in the polls is fairly laughable and the idea that the party would be better splitting apart is a horrendous idea as it would hand the country to the tories for decades and if anyone doesn't care about the state of the country it is the negligent labour leadership who are recklessly helping to push forward brexit that will be catastrophic for working and middle class people in this country.

Do you not get bored with chucking out all these strawmen, seems like about 4 or 5 in that post alone.

[Mutton Geoff]

That list means nothing to them,I can remember posting a long,long list of all the good that Labour did and they just come back with but,but the war.

Well much as you might hope to erase this from the Blair legacy the man has blood on his hands and part of his legacy along with thick Bush Jr was the growth of ISIS, and the total mess and millions of deaths in the past and now in the middle east.

 As for all the good things they did that was a decent cabinet doing that in a collective as it should be, while Blair was too busy trying to be presidential on the world stage. Whether you like it or not the cult of Blairism is forever tainted with blood.

[Sangria]

Well much as you might hope to erase this from the Blair legacy the man has blood on his hands and part of his legacy along with thick Bush Jr was the growth of ISIS, and the total mess and millions of deaths in the past and now in the middle east.

 As for all the good things they did that was a decent cabinet doing that in a collective as it should be, while Blair was too busy trying to be presidential on the world stage. Whether you like it or not the cult of Blairism is forever tainted with blood.

And what will be Corbyn's legacy, may I ask?

[Mutton Geoff]

Nobody except the fucking tories will be happy when they win the next election and while Corbyn won't be the only reason, the continuing labour policy of treating the vast majority of their remain-voting voters with contempt is what will cause that to happen.

Corbyn standing down won't fix all or even many problems, any change in leadership would need to be accompanied with a shift to a strong remain position that more accurately represents the views of 80% of labour voters.

The idea that people having their valid complaints ignored by the labour leadership are to blame for the sorry state of the parties standing in the polls is fairly laughable and the idea that the party would be better splitting apart is a horrendous idea as it would hand the country to the tories for decades and if anyone doesn't care about the state of the country it is the negligent labour leadership who are recklessly helping to push forward brexit that will be catastrophic for working and middle class people in this country.

Do you not get bored with chucking out all these strawmen, seems like about 4 or 5 in that post alone.

No but i do get bored with shit stupid comments like strawman.

Your so called valid complaints are massively embellished in here and elsewhere by Labour voters and elected members feeding the media still, who put their own spite and egos including some elitist arseholes in the PLP before the party and the country because the wrong man got elected frankly it makes sense to me you can split the party now or they can all continue destroying it from the inside.

The Tories dont need to try to fight the Labour party when some labour members are doing the job for them.

Meanwhile i watch family members getting screwed by UC, i see massive increases in rough sleepers , the suicide rates are astronomic the NHS is fucked and all people can do is bitch about innuendos and Corbyn being guilty by association for anything they can dredge up from any source at all.

[Sangria]

No but i do get bored with shit stupid comments like strawman.

Your so called valid complaints are massively embellished in here and elsewhere by Labour voters and elected members feeding the media still, who put their own spite and egos including some elitist arseholes in the PLP before the party and the country because the wrong man got elected frankly it makes sense to me you can split the party now or they can all continue destroying it from the inside.

The Tories dont need to try to fight the Labour party when some labour members are doing the job for them.

Meanwhile i watch family members getting screwed by UC, i see massive increases in rough sleepers , the suicide rates are astronomic the NHS is fucked and all people can do is bitch about innuendos and Corbyn being guilty by association for anything they can dredge up from any source at all.

Does Corbyn's Brexit policy help matters?

[John C]

And when the Tories get elected yet again in the next GE will you be happy? 

Another unfortunate and irrational post from you. Diabolical as well.
If he stepped down Yvette Cooper could be the stabilising influence of the party, but in all honestly it wouldn't be hard for anyone to demonstrate some clear and orderly leadership. It's unlikely though as the current Labour movement evidently doesn't want to fight for government. There's a fragmented doctrine wrecking the massive opportunity to oust the fucking Tories. The person you say you dislike but bore this forum defending being one of them.

Yeah, yeah, you're logging out and leaving us all to it.

[TepidT2O]

Wills man still not dealt with.

Why not? It’s only Jews I guess...

Faulkner is disgusted

https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/opinion-lord-falconer-labour-failed-the-pete-willsman-acid-test/

[Mutton Geoff]

Another unfortunate and irrational post from you. Diabolical as well.
If he stepped down Yvette Cooper could be the stabilising influence of the party, but in all honestly it wouldn't be hard for anyone to demonstrate some clear and orderly leadership. It's unlikely though as the current Labour movement evidently doesn't want to fight for government. There's a fragmented doctrine wrecking the massive opportunity to oust the fucking Tories. The person you say you dislike but bore this forum defending being one of them.

Yeah, yeah, you're logging out and leaving us all to it.

Another one who doesnt get it,

 I am desperate for a labour government and frankly i dont care who leads it,  but right now nobody is getting rid of Corbyn,  so right now it is him or nobody thats not defending him that's the reality of the situation the party is in. If that situation changes i will be happy with that as well so long as it gets rid of the tories.

 I am now going to watch some football so enjoy your evening,

[Sangria]

Another one who doesnt get it,

 I am desperate for a labour government and frankly i dont care who leads it,  but right now nobody is getting rid of Corbyn,  so right now it is him or nobody thats not defending him that's the reality of the situation the party is in. If that situation changes i will be happy with that as well so long as it gets rid of the tories.

 I am now going to watch some football so enjoy your evening,

No wonder people are turning to the Lib Dems for a Remain party.

[Skeeve]

Another one who doesnt get it,

 I am desperate for a labour government and frankly i dont care who leads it,  but right now nobody is getting rid of Corbyn,  so right now it is him or nobody thats not defending him that's the reality of the situation the party is in. If that situation changes i will be happy with that as well so long as it gets rid of the tories.

I wouldn't care who led it either, the bigger issue is their policy on brexit and that is of such vital importance both now and for the long-term future of the country that there is no way I could continue to back a brexit-supporting labour party as it is a betrayal of labour voters, labour policy and horrendously harmful to those people labour should be trying to support.

[Skeeve]

The Tories dont need to try to fight the Labour party when some labour members are doing the job for them.

Meanwhile i watch family members getting screwed by UC, i see massive increases in rough sleepers , the suicide rates are astronomic the NHS is fucked and all people can do is bitch about innuendos and Corbyn being guilty by association for anything they can dredge up from any source at all.

Perhaps if the labour leadership (and it isn't just corbyn) did not continue to ignore the wants of the vast majority of their supporters and the policy laid down by the conference with regards to brexit then maybe most of those people would have no reason to fight against the leadership of the party.

All those things are bad, but guess fucking what, they will get far far worse after brexit when the restraints of the EU are removed from the tory government and being realistic, it will be a tory government because labour are 3rd choice at best for brexit supporters so chasing that niche is doomed to failure.

[filopastry]

Just a reminder of one of the leadership's view of the party.

“I’m not in the Labour party because I’m a believer of the Labour party as some supreme body or something God-given or anything like that. It’s a tactic. It’s as simple as that. If it’s no longer a useful vehicle, move on. If we can reclaim the Labour Party, fine. If we can’t, well then we need to look at a new organisational form that comes out of struggle, not just intellectual debate.” John McDonnell 2012

Maybe the current leadership aren't in the ideal position to be calling for loyalty above all else based on their past history, given they showed previous little when they werent running the party.

[Red Beret]

Wasn't sure which thread to put this, so I'll just leave it here.

[Zeb]

I can't remember how Stuart reacted to the vote to leave but I do remember some of Umunnas speeches in Parliament. he reacted like all Labour MPs should have reacted at the time. stood up and told the Tories what he thought of them. pointed at them and told them he would throw their lies back in their faces by the time this has ended. the last thing on Umunnas mind was wining votes. he wasn't telling Labour members to look forward to leaving the EU positively like Corbyn, he was very angry, he was doing something he believed was right, trying to stop the country from doing something he knew would be disastrous.
Am sure we can find similarities between all remain MPs+leave MPs.
Many of us have applauded Ken Clarke +Michael Heseltine for standing up and telling the truth no matter what the backlash is. it doesn't make us Tories though.
I am more concerned about the intention behind comparing Umunna to Stuart.

Think my point was really that the similarities you mention are becoming increasingly more dominant than the Tory vs Lab split we usually measure politicians against, and which some are still trying to do. Definitely not suggesting Umunna or even Stewart are being cynical about things - probably the complete reverse as it's driven by values and how they're prioritised. It's very weird watching a neverending referendum campaign.

----

Wasn't sure which thread to put this, so I'll just leave it here.

[So… Howard Philips]

I think it's to position himself with the party for a role in cabinet, a higher profile for any future leadership election and (less cynically) to ensure that a certain wing/tradition of the party is represented in the discussions for as long as possible. The rest are much of a muchness - rabid (far right) Brexiteers versus pragmatic (a bit right of centre right) Brexiteers. The 'wet' wing of the Tories has withered over the decades, but it still just about exists.

Stewart comes across as the type Thatcher decried as a 'wet' or 'semi-detached'.

It's easy to slag him off but just look at the other options. Nightmares the lot of them.

But not to worry, Jeremy's 7th Cavalry is racing to save us from another decade of Tory rule.

[So… Howard Philips]

Wasn't sure which thread to put this, so I'll just leave it here.

That's an impressive bellend.

[ShakaHislop]

Stewart comes across as the type Thatcher decried as a 'wet' or 'semi-detached'.

It's easy to slag him off but just look at the other options. Nightmares the lot of them.

But not to worry, Jeremy's 7th Cavalry is racing to save us from another decade of Tory rule.

I don't think Hancock is any worse than Stewart/Stewart is any better than Hancock, yet no-one is swooning over Hancock.

[oldfordie]

Think my point was really that the similarities you mention are becoming increasingly more dominant than the Tory vs Lab split we usually measure politicians against, and which some are still trying to do. Definitely not suggesting Umunna or even Stewart are being cynical about things - probably the complete reverse as it's driven by values and how they're prioritised. It's very weird watching a neverending referendum campaign.

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No I wasn't suggesting you were Zeb, sorry if I gave that impression, you wouldn't use the expression they are both different cheeks from the same arse to make the point as well.
I wasn't going to try and look for similarities, it was up to the poster to justify why he thinks Stuart+Umunna are just different cheeks from the same arse.