Topic: Terrorism in the UK - The Wider Context

[Crosby Nick]

Last few times it has gone up it got downgraded a few days later

So as said, they'll upgrade it until they figure out who else is responsible and they can track them down presumably.

[Peabee]

They certainly have a lot in common in terms of callous disregard for human life. The IRA were also happy to murder children if it suited their ends. However, as has been pointed out above the IRA were comprehensively beaten because their organisation was able to be penetrated. These lone wolf type attacks are not the product of a structure so it's very difficult to stop them in the same way as the IRA. Also, they don't seem to have a political objective. There's nothing they can be offered in return for stopping killing.

Not entirely accurate re the IRA.  There cause was for a United Ireland not some outdated backward ideology.  There were a lot of warnings, and some warnings were ignored because they were imprecise (codewords were only accepted if they were precise), which lead to the death of civilians.   

[Alan_X]

So as said, they'll upgrade it until they figure out who else is responsible and they can track them down presumably.

Exactly. It all revolves around who made the bomb. If they find he made it himself (like the 7/7 bombers) they'll downgrade it. If it looks like there is a separate bombmaker then an other attack will be coming sometime soon.

[Qston]

Well the reporter talking to GMP went on to say that they have have told him there is no specific evidence, but 'can not rule out' that there is a wider network which may be planning attacks.

Which really, is 'as we were', isn't it? That's what the 'severe' threat level already covers.

We as a society respond to terrorist events with the line 'not let it affect our way of life'. We're now going to have the final two weeks of an election campaign with soldiers on street corners, while elements of the press combine their usual analysis of the threat of Islamist violence with their support for a strong and stable leader; her opponent praising the unity of response and the emergency services, while already being portrayed as soft on terrorism and immigration.

That's an unprecedented context in which to undergo an election campaign, and we have certainly let this attack change how we go about things.

I accept we change certain elements of the way activity is conducted e.g. security checks at airports. You can't ignore the threat but I am talking about normal people going about their business as usual. I suppose it's a subjective view of what you consider the point at which we are not going about our normal lives. The overriding message to terrorists, irrespective of whether they will ever listen, needs to be that what they do won't fundamentally have the desired effect.

My issue is also with the press who pedal fear as a way of selling papers thereby causing people to worry about every aspect of day to day life.

[redmark]

22 people died last night mate. There's a chance he didn't make his own bomb in which case there is a bomb maker and other suicide attacks likely.

Until they can prove he made his own bomb they have to assume that another attack could happen at any time. It would be reckless and criminally negligent to assume anything else.

Of course I get that (and I'm not making quite the conspiratorial point some thought I was).

If this was a cell, though, surely the most likely tactic would have been similar to the Bataclan, to attack at various entry/exit points, a few minutes apart as people panicked and tried to get out.

I'll not keep on at it. I just think we're in uncharted waters for an election campaign and the reaction isn't quite the 'keep calm and carry on' we hear in public statements.

[Purple Red]

Not entirely accurate re the IRA.  There cause was for a United Ireland not some outdated backward ideology.  There were a lot of warnings, and some warnings were ignored because they were imprecise (codewords were only accepted if they were precise), which lead to the death of civilians.   

So it was somebody else's fault they killed children? Like with those who try and blame this attack on the government - the full burden of responsibility must always rest on the shoulders of the men of violence who set the bombs and pull the triggers.

[Peabee]

So it was somebody else's fault they killed children? Like with those who try and blame this attack on the government - the full burden of responsibility must always rest on the shoulders of the men of violence who set the bombs and pull the triggers.

It was entirely their fault; they chose violence to fight their cause.  I'm just saying ISIS's endgame is death.   Not really comparable with the IRA. 

[Purple Red]

It was entirely their fault.  I'm just saying ISIS's endgame is death.   Not really comparable with the IRA.

That's fair. The IRA's endgame was political, their method was death.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Of course I get that (and I'm not making quite the conspiratorial point some thought I was).

If this was a cell, though, surely the most likely tactic would have been similar to the Bataclan, to attack at various entry/exit points, a few minutes apart as people panicked and tried to get out.

I'll not keep on at it. I just think we're in uncharted waters for an election campaign and the reaction isn't quite the 'keep calm and carry on' we hear in public statements.

i was thinking that, you've got at least three exits so surely if it was a group they'd have gone for all of them not the most likely to be busy one?

[redmark]

It was entirely their fault; they chose violence to fight their cause.  I'm just saying ISIS's endgame is death.   Not really comparable with the IRA.

ISIS's endgame appears to be political; the creation of an ultra-fundamentalist caliphate spanning the Muslim world, enforcing their brand of Islam on all subjects and spreading that, by force, to the non-Muslim world.

It's rather more globally ambitious, apocalyptic and prepared to envisage vast numbers of murders... but ultmately, it's all about political (and theological) power.

[TravisBickle]

i was thinking that, you've got at least three exits so surely if it was a group they'd have gone for all of them not the most likely to be busy one?

 It's possible that others were complicit in encouraging him, pointing him where to go etc. There will be many people who walk around with hearts full of hate, spewing it on WhatsApp or Twitter but not actually being able to bring themselves to carry out such an atrocity.

[Peabee]

ISIS's endgame appears to be political; the creation of an ultra-fundamentalist caliphate spanning the Muslim world, enforcing their brand of Islam on all subjects and spreading that, by force, to the non-Muslim world.

It's rather more globally ambitious, apocalyptic and prepared to envisage vast numbers of murders... but ultmately, it's all about political (and theological) power.

Ok, but I'm talking about it in a western democratic and secular context.  Its endgame is the death of the west, and because there's no room for negotiation, the endgame is ultimately death for non-muslims.   I'd rather die than adhere to their ideology.

[Purple Red]

ISIS's endgame appears to be political; the creation of an ultra-fundamentalist caliphate spanning the Muslim world, enforcing their brand of Islam on all subjects and spreading that, by force, to the non-Muslim world.

It's rather more globally ambitious, apocalyptic and prepared to envisage vast numbers of murders... but ultmately, it's all about political (and theological) power.

Good point. It's just such an insane goal I forgot that it could be considered political. That said, these lone wolf idiots can't believe their random, piecemeal attacks actually achieve anything in terms of this goal?

[Peabee]

Of course I get that (and I'm not making quite the conspiratorial point some thought I was).

If this was a cell, though, surely the most likely tactic would have been similar to the Bataclan, to attack at various entry/exit points, a few minutes apart as people panicked and tried to get out.

I'll not keep on at it. I just think we're in uncharted waters for an election campaign and the reaction isn't quite the 'keep calm and carry on' we hear in public statements.

You have a point.   We should all be a bit cynical.  Politics is a game.

[redmark]

Good point. It's just such an insane goal I forgot that it could be considered political. That said, these lone wolf idiots can't believe their random, piecemeal attacks actually achieve anything in terms of this goal?

I suspect, like past apocalyptic cults in christianity and other religions, they believe 'their' religion is destined to win regardless of their own actions - which are more about hastening the 'end times' rather than any concern that they may not come. So perhaps it is more apocalyptic and death focused than political after all. The 'book' religions extremists' views of such times often blur the distinction between ruling on earth and the actual physical destruction of earth. The 'end of history', I suppose, doesn't really care about the physical (if there even is one) after the final spiritual 'victory'.

[Alan_X]

i was thinking that, you've got at least three exits so surely if it was a group they'd have gone for all of them not the most likely to be busy one?

That's over-extrapolating. You're imagining what a 'cell' might do if they were like the Bataclan attackers. The security services will simply be looking at whether he was his own bomb maker or not.

Terrorist tactics aren't all the same. ISIS in Iraq and Syria have bomb-makers and use 'volunteers' to carry out the attacks.

[The North Bank]

Until they are sure that only 1 bomb was made, they have to assume that other bombs are out there.

[Magix]

Good point. It's just such an insane goal I forgot that it could be considered political. That said, these lone wolf idiots can't believe their random, piecemeal attacks actually achieve anything in terms of this goal?

I thought Islam the religion can't be divorced from Islam the political system? As in, the practice of sharia necessitates a political system.

[Skidder.]

Quite rational to think that this could be the first in a wave of attacks if this has been a suicide bomber. But I think people can miss the point at times, quite easily, given the swaying from some of the media outlets looking to up their agendas.

It isn't as if he has made an IED like the Boston Marathons and planted it, walked away and detonated - the bomber wore a vest or device, went to a concert, sat with his victims through a 2 hour(?) concert - probably looked them in the eye and saw their rejoice... and then chose to detonate the device.

Thinking about it that way - it could be safe to assume that he was somehow trained/brainwashed by a higher authority. And with that in mind, that higher authority is not just going to look for individuals who have been isolated from society.

I just fear that there are a generation of young/middle-aged individuals who have found themselves isolated from our society and communities or with mental ill health, who will be used by 'terror groups' in these such ways. 

[red_Mark1980]

^ has it been confirmed he was at the gig?

Everything I've heard suggests it was in a public place. In that he waited till it was over and just walked up.

As horrible as it is. I'm shocked this hasn't happened before at large events.

[SP]

i was thinking that, you've got at least three exits so surely if it was a group they'd have gone for all of them not the most likely to be busy one?

But if you have three volunteers, three separate attacks generates three sets of headlines. Three attackers at one locations does not cause much more coverage than one attacker.

[FinnanTastic]

I only recently found out friend of mines niece was injured and her friend is in critical condition, how could anyone do this to young innocent girls, growing up through the troubles in Ireland every week there was a shooting or a car bomb nearby or on the news but I felt detached from it ,thats not to belittle the tragic events that occurred at the time, but since last nights events I have never seen so many people around me or in work as low and dejected as I have today, God bless them and there families and everyone on this forum based in the UK and across the country.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

But if you have three volunteers, three separate attacks generates three sets of headlines. Three attackers at one locations does not cause much more coverage than one attacker.

true, was thinking more along the lines of 7/7

It's possible that others were complicit in encouraging him, pointing him where to go etc. There will be many people who walk around with hearts full of hate, spewing it on WhatsApp or Twitter but not actually being able to bring themselves to carry out such an atrocity.

very true, and the goaders are the biggest scumbags in all this

[red_Mark1980]

But if you have three volunteers, three separate attacks generates three sets of headlines. Three attackers at one locations does not cause much more coverage than one attacker.

Or panic. This bank holiday weekend we have the Manchester 10k and half marathon.

Liverpool rock n roll half and full marathon. FA cup final, cricket and golf and the playoffs.

It's what they want. Take That cancelled their echo show tonight. Which is exactly what the murders want.

[jackh]

I only recently found out friend of mines niece was injured and her friend is in critical condition, how could anyone do this to young innocent girls, growing up through the troubles in Ireland every week there was a shooting or a car bomb nearby or on the news but I felt detached from it ,thats not to belittle the tragic events that occurred at the time, but since last nights events I have never seen so many people around me or in work as low and dejected as I have today, God bless them and there families and everyone on this forum based in the UK and across the country.

Sorry to hear that - all the very best to your friend's niece and her friend, to you, and to everybody affected.

[Skidder.]

^ has it been confirmed he was at the gig?

Everything I've heard suggests it was in a public place. In that he waited till it was over and just walked up.

As horrible as it is. I'm shocked this hasn't happened before at large events.

Honestly, I'm not sure - but as I say, it isn't as if this has been a Boston-like device; it was for all intents and purposes a suicide bomber - takes a different kind of organisation to do that.

Scary times regardless.

[stevensr123]

The way the left and the right go about it in the response to terorist attacks is pathetic.  On one hand you have the right blaming all Muslims.

On the left you have varies excuses:

Blame society for marginalising them - i Don't see Asians, coloured people, poor people etc who are all marginalised some times in their life, blowing up 22 innocent children.


Lets blame the media - I didn't realise the media had a gun to their head telling them to do this stuff.

and then you have the crowd that says your more likely to die if a refrigerator falls on you - Fuck off.

I'm sick of people blaming everything else but the problem.

Now in terms of solutions, I'm not sure their is a solution, I think it's gonna get worse until communities themselves start doing a lot more to combat it.

[PIPA23]

these attacks will not end, why? because the enemy donīt even need to travel... all the major attacks in europe, paris and now UK are made by people born in these countries... you canīt prevent it... and hate towards these people, even inocent people will produce more attacks...

even if you close the borders today, the enemy is already in...

[TravisBickle]

very true, and the goaders are the biggest scumbags in all this

 Did you watch the documentary "The Jihadis Next Door" by any chance? It's on Netflix if you subscribe to that and fancy watching it. The theme from that particular documentary was older, well read, eloquent men pointing younger men in one particular direction i.e. towards violence at home if they couldn't flee and make it to Syria/Iraq.

 They know the law and how to get around it. They know how to avoid criminalising themselves. But crucially they also know exactly what to say to young men who might be feeling a certain way to push them over the edge. The younger men (who are still scumbags, and not at all blameless) end up in jail whilst the older hate preachers stay cosy with their families.

 It's a truly sad state of affairs.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Did you watch the documentary "The Jihadis Next Door" by any chance? It's on Netflix if you subscribe to that and fancy watching it. The theme from that particular documentary was older, well read, eloquent men pointing younger men in one particular direction i.e. towards violence at home if they couldn't flee and make it to Syria/Iraq.

 They know the law and how to get around it. They know how to avoid criminalising themselves. But crucially they also know exactly what to say to young men who might be feeling a certain way to push them over the edge. The younger men (who are still scumbags, and not at all blameless) end up in jail whilst the older hate preachers stay cosy with their families.

 It's a truly sad state of affairs.

havent heard of that, thanks for the heads up

[PIPA23]

Yeah I know it's not going to work thinking about it. Life goes on, and you need to continue with work, life...

i know what you mean, but mate this is not life... i was in london 3 times over last two or three months, also after last terror attacks in Westminster...., people are in constant fear if something bangs or any noise, you can see it on their faces... i am always thinking i can die any time in London station where there are many hundrets of people, basically everywhere... i know nobody knows when there might be a similar thing...but that is not life... go to Poland, go to all eastern europe.... wherever you go, you feel safe... i donīt feel safe anymore in UK... and i donīt believe you if you do... this is not life... it is worried state of mind all the time...

we know the problem, we donīt know how to deal with it, but hard measures need to be done... to have peace in mind...

[puroresu_kid]

Whilst for the most part that is true, I do believe communities need to do more. There is still a reluctance to talk to the police in a lot of ethnic communities. People have to be named and shamed by their own. You will occasionally get a complete "lone wolf" type but more often than not other poeple must be aware of their views. It's not enough to just expect the police to deal with it and shut your own front door as in the end it will affect the whole community.

Damn right. As a mixed race person I am very wary of the police as I don't trust them.

As a Muslim I certainly don't trust them. The ridiculous ideas like Muslims spying on each other were just stupid.

What do people think happens in mosques? I swear some people actually think people plot terroism in mosques.

I've had friends mention to me how the security services have approached them asking them to work for them and be some kind of snitch.

It's not up to us to police. That's not our job.

As for the wider context the UK doesn't need to get involved in conflicts that have nothing to do with them.

[TravisBickle]

Damn right. As a mixed race person I am very wary of the police as I don't trust them.

As a Muslim I certainly don't trust them. The ridiculous ideas like Muslims spying on each other were just stupid.

What do people think happens in mosques? I swear some people actually think people plot terroism in mosques.

I've had friends mention to me how the security services have approached them asking them to work for them and be some kind of snitch.

It's not up to us to police. That's not our job.

As for the wider context the UK doesn't need to get involved in conflicts that have nothing to do with them.

 In what way is the UK's foreign policy the "wider context?"

 The UK has been involved in a lot of conflicts in recent years, in various capacities. Some were justified and others were most certainly not. But the ones that were unjust were not unjust because some Jihadist scumbags didn't like it.

[Peabee]

i know what you mean, but mate this is not life... i was in london 3 times over last two or three months, also after last terror attacks in Westminster...., people are in constant fear if something bangs or any noise, you can see it on their faces... i am always thinking i can die any time in London station where there are many hundrets of people, basically everywhere... i know nobody knows when there might be a similar thing...but that is not life... go to Poland, go to all eastern europe.... wherever you go, you feel safe... i donīt feel safe anymore in UK... and i donīt believe you if you do... this is not life... it is worried state of mind all the time...

we know the problem, we donīt know how to deal with it, but hard measures need to be done... to have peace in mind...

No, we're not.   

[stevensr123]

Damn right. As a mixed race person I am very wary of the police as I don't trust them.

As a Muslim I certainly don't trust them. The ridiculous ideas like Muslims spying on each other were just stupid.

What do people think happens in mosques? I swear some people actually think people plot terroism in mosques.

I've had friends mention to me how the security services have approached them asking them to work for them and be some kind of snitch.

It's not up to us to police. That's not our job.

As for the wider context the UK doesn't need to get involved in conflicts that have nothing to do with them.

ah blaming the Uk for some twat bombing children. Nice one.


This isn't even about revenge for what the UK has done, it's about a fascist doctrine that want's to stop freedom and make us submit. 

You say it isn't upto you to police, but you should at least help stop the spread of such doctrine and educate younger people of your faith, but then again you don't even think it's about religion do you?

[puroresu_kid]

I thought Islam the religion can't be divorced from Islam the political system? As in, the practice of sharia necessitates a political system.

Correct hence trying to come up with some western secular kind of Islam will never work.

Not every Muslim will practice and many live a secular lifestyle however to try and some up with an Islam where the actual text becomes secular and a political Islam doesn't exist is doomed to fail.

It's impossible for a learned scholar to validate such a thing.
 

I have to say Im also prepared to give up some of my fucking liberty if it means stopping a suicide bomber, Im not that precious, if you have nothing to hide you shouldnt worry. 

That's dangerous and once it starts where does it stop. The government then decides what is dangerous for you and what isn't.

[PIPA23]

No, we're not.   

ok i am talking from my perspective... perhaps west europe people are getting used to this now... in your opinion things like this should be considered a norm in 21. century west europe? in my opinion it is all but normal to be in fear in Paris, London etc... anywhere in west europe...

[kennedy81]

Damn right. As a mixed race person I am very wary of the police as I don't trust them.

As a Muslim I certainly don't trust them. The ridiculous ideas like Muslims spying on each other were just stupid.

What do people think happens in mosques? I swear some people actually think people plot terroism in mosques.

I've had friends mention to me how the security services have approached them asking them to work for them and be some kind of snitch.

It's not up to us to police. That's not our job.

As for the wider context the UK doesn't need to get involved in conflicts that have nothing to do with them.

With respect mate, it's everyone's job to police to some extent. We can't just leave everythig to the security forces and hope they don't let one slip through the net. You're either a part of this society or you're not. I can understand if you don't care much for the police, but we're not talking about grassing up someone for nicking a few stereos here.

This Abedi fella was already known to the security forces and was known to be knocking about with some dangerous characters. Someone must have known he was heading down a dangerous path, and they did nothing about it. Maybe they didn't care for the police either, or maybe they just didn't want to be called a snitch, but if they had have informed someone, maybe those 22 people would still be alive today.

[oldfordie]

Damn right. As a mixed race person I am very wary of the police as I don't trust them.

As a Muslim I certainly don't trust them. The ridiculous ideas like Muslims spying on each other were just stupid.

What do people think happens in mosques? I swear some people actually think people plot terroism in mosques.

I've had friends mention to me how the security services have approached them asking them to work for them and be some kind of snitch.

It's not up to us to police. That's not our job.

As for the wider context the UK doesn't need to get involved in conflicts that have nothing to do with them.

Snitch. think about what your saying here you think it's wrong to report someone whose given you good reason to believe maybe radicalized.
Vulnerable people are being radicalized by extremists. I imagine many Muslims are already giving the security forces information about being approached by extremists already which is probably one of the reasons these attacks are so rare.
If your scared of any repercussions over reporting someone then do it anonymously.

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

Correct hence trying to come up with some western secular kind of Islam will never work.

Not every Muslim will practice and many live a secular lifestyle however to try and some up with an Islam where the actual text becomes secular and a political Islam doesn't exist is doomed to fail.

It's impossible for a learned scholar to validate such a thing.
 

Mate, you're convinced of this, and I've heard this plenty of times from other Muslims, but that's the atmosphere, the setting you've known always. I'm sure for every other religion, there was a point when it seemed complete adherence was non negotiable. Hell Hinduism is considered fairly flexible these days in a lot of countries (not all!) but there was a point in history when people killed each other en masse over their  chosen fairy superhero avatar hero saviour.

The collective mentality, will of the people shapes everything else. If the overriding mentality in a certain area is shaped by  a secular education, understanding, then you can work the details of religion to suit a healthy way of life. If the mentality in a certain area is shaped by poverty, heavy focus on the Way (whether it's Christian, muslim or otherwise), you'll get your head kicked in if you went in there and suggested a better method. The mentality of the people comes first, and to have the best possible quality of people, you need to let them have 1) open access, 2) a good level of secular education, and 3) complete dialogue, discussion, analysis. 4) fair living conditions and opportunity for advancement

Now tell me which Middle East country can honestly claim to have all four. The issue isn't in the UK, you can talk about the value of life to the young morons in UK mosques all you want, but if they're set on wrecking shit, they'll only ever see you as second class material, with the real source being the peninsula. You can't get through to them. The path, for them to think a certain way, has to be obliterated. That can only happen at the source. Until then, you'll continue having the attacks, the fear, the pointless discussions.

All the while propping up middle eastern monarchies that preserve themselves by keeping their citizens at a low level, preventing the creation of a better mentality in the people overall (rather than in pockets which of course will always exist), keeping the ground fertile for those who a preach a non-negotiable Way. A continually existing Way, which of course morons globally are free to tap into because they want to fuck shit up.