Author Topic: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right  (Read 38285 times)

Offline Snail

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #280 on: October 31, 2022, 07:01:05 am »
Thoughts and prayers with half of our squad, etc.

Offline gazzalfc

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #281 on: October 31, 2022, 08:12:03 am »
For those wanting to catch up. This was done during the first round of voting

<a href="https://youtube.com/v/uySgklnlX3Y" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://youtube.com/v/uySgklnlX3Y</a>

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #282 on: October 31, 2022, 08:12:49 am »
Thank christ.

Oh, and a little less public praying now lads please. God's obviously pissed off with your man.
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Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #283 on: October 31, 2022, 08:25:47 am »
Some good news at least.  Cannot overstate how important this result was.

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #284 on: October 31, 2022, 08:45:35 am »
Thoughts and prayers with half of our squad, etc.

😁👌

Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #285 on: October 31, 2022, 08:49:25 am »
Thoughts and prayers with half of our squad, etc.

 ;D

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #286 on: October 31, 2022, 08:51:10 am »
Thoughts and prayers with half of our squad, etc.

Punishment for our shit results.
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Offline TSC

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #287 on: October 31, 2022, 09:02:27 am »
Interestingly and unsurprisingly Bolsonaro has yet to concede defeat.

Offline BarryCrocker

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #288 on: October 31, 2022, 09:15:00 am »
Interestingly and unsurprisingly Bolsonaro has yet to concede defeat.

However, the delay is very telling. Trump came out straight away in order to ignite the rage. They had their game plan made up well up in advance.
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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #289 on: October 31, 2022, 10:57:41 am »
I guess the club have strict policies about avoiding subjects like politics inside our facilities because it must be awkward for some players in our club to realise when some players who support a guy who thinks the white christian world is under threat

Offline Rahul21

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #290 on: October 31, 2022, 11:04:13 am »
Great news. A relief.

But can someone explain how areas such as Rio and Sao Paulo (the most populous, and you would assume the most likely to be more liberal leaning like London in the UK, or Paris in France) were supporting Bolsonaro over Lulu?

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #291 on: October 31, 2022, 11:12:21 am »
However, the delay is very telling. Trump came out straight away in order to ignite the rage. They had their game plan made up well up in advance.

I'm guessing Bolsonaro is gauging his support should he decide to launch a coup.
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Offline BarryCrocker

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #292 on: October 31, 2022, 11:17:53 am »
Great news. A relief.

But can someone explain how areas such as Rio and Sao Paulo (the most populous, and you would assume the most likely to be more liberal leaning like London in the UK, or Paris in France) were supporting Bolsonaro over Lulu?

Simple solutions. He advocated a return to the times where the military junta ruled the country which resulted in less violent crimes. The 'right' alway blames the 'left' for out of control crime rates when in effect it's the government committing the crimes (unreported) when the juntas rule the country.

With the 'right' their fix is called control.
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Offline Libertine

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #293 on: October 31, 2022, 12:08:48 pm »
Lula about to win Bellweather state


Just! 0.4% in it in the end.

Remarkably it's tallied with every result since 1950.

Although, it seemed to be one of the last states to finish counting, which makes it a not very useful bellweather.

Offline Machae

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #294 on: October 31, 2022, 12:21:51 pm »
Hoping Lula comes hard on the forces who set up road blocks to make it less easy for his supporters to vote

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #295 on: October 31, 2022, 01:41:50 pm »
Thoughts and prayers with half of our squad, etc.
A great demonstration of how the right can hijack things like football and Christianity.  It should be no surprise that a seemingly very decent person like Allison would end up endorsing Bolsonaro.  Once you get a few big characters on board others that are less engaged in politics are likely to side with them.

We've seen it here with the Union Jack becoming synonymous with the right and how the Tories - laughably - tried to create an association between themselves and the England football team.

As with most things there's a lot of inconsistency.  Christianity largely preaches what we'd think of as being a left-leaning manifesto but has some incredibly out-dated concepts running through it (anti-homosexuality, anti-abortion).  Arguably less so here than in the Americas but the right have been very good at making a lot out of those out-dated concepts such that Christianity and the right have almost become one.

Anyway, I'm delighted Lula has been re-elected.  It feels like in the flip-flop of left-to-right-and-back-again politics that we're currently going through, mostly, a right-to-left period.  Italy clearly bucked that trend though so I think it's probably more a case of everything going to shit at the same time that many right-leaning governments are in power (coincidence?) and that in times of strife people just look for any alternative.

Offline Machae

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #296 on: October 31, 2022, 03:53:37 pm »
Yeah, but it wasnt the Union Jack flag but the St Georges Cross one that is synonymous with far right groups

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #297 on: October 31, 2022, 03:58:20 pm »
Yeah, but it wasnt the Union Jack flag but the St Georges Cross one that is synonymous with far right groups

I certainly remember the NF marching with the Union flag in the 1970s.

https://warwick.ac.uk/services/library/mrc/studying/docs/racism/1970s/

Offline darragh85

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #298 on: October 31, 2022, 04:07:32 pm »
for all we know that scumbag has the footballers threatened to endorse him. wouldnt put it past such a psychopath.

Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #299 on: October 31, 2022, 04:15:18 pm »

Do we know if Bobby is a Bolsenaro acolyte too?  :D

Seem to recall a few years ago Firmino and Coutinho walked away from him while a photo was being organized.

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #300 on: October 31, 2022, 06:11:28 pm »
A great demonstration of how the right can hijack things like football and Christianity.  It should be no surprise that a seemingly very decent person like Allison would end up endorsing Bolsonaro.  Once you get a few big characters on board others that are less engaged in politics are likely to side with them.

We've seen it here with the Union Jack becoming synonymous with the right and how the Tories - laughably - tried to create an association between themselves and the England football team.

As with most things there's a lot of inconsistency.  Christianity largely preaches what we'd think of as being a left-leaning manifesto but has some incredibly out-dated concepts running through it (anti-homosexuality, anti-abortion).  Arguably less so here than in the Americas but the right have been very good at making a lot out of those out-dated concepts such that Christianity and the right have almost become one.

Anyway, I'm delighted Lula has been re-elected.  It feels like in the flip-flop of left-to-right-and-back-again politics that we're currently going through, mostly, a right-to-left period.  Italy clearly bucked that trend though so I think it's probably more a case of everything going to shit at the same time that many right-leaning governments are in power (coincidence?) and that in times of strife people just look for any alternative.

How do you know Alisson is a decent person?

Offline disgraced cake

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #301 on: October 31, 2022, 07:13:35 pm »
Alisson's wife was with the World Health Organisation I believe - Just baffling that they'd support him isn't it given what's happened with Covid.
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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #302 on: October 31, 2022, 07:17:56 pm »
They are both vaccine ambassadors for the UN.
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Offline classycarra

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #303 on: October 31, 2022, 07:37:14 pm »
Please don't take this as being supportive/empathetic/understanding of the shift of some brazilians into supporting the fascist scumbag and his cronies - but just wanted to try and contribute a little to the context that lead to this point!

Think it's important to note that Lula's party and Lula himself (along with Dilma) are also very deeply unpopular with those that don't support them and that includes with some people who have voted for him/them in the past or at least tend to vote for left parties. As with Bolsonaro, if you aren't a supporter of the man there's not many who are ambivalent or indifferent - they're deeply hated.

On Lula there can be a perception (sometimes factual, but also often a result of conspiracies/stitch ups) that he and PT (his party) are loose or even corrupt with public funds, rife with cronyism, friends to dictators (Chavez/Maduro) & want venezuela 2.0 and are weak on crime ('they care more about the wellbeing of one's armed robber than the victim').

Understandably the majority of media noise that tends to reach us as an international audience is framed around Bolsonaro the dangerous fascist with an emphasis on the depressing number of Brazilians who will vote for him - but the thing that's often absent is that PT put up a guy who (rightly or wrongly, and entirely unrelated to his previous tenure) is tarnished by his spell in prison and with the way much of his base were still unequivocally supportive of Lula in spite of the conviction (before it was overturned) - ie a sort of cult of personality 'he may well be guilty, but I don't care' vibe. It's not an exact analogue - but imagine if Labour had Blair as leader in a general election sometime from 2010-15 - there'd be a view of the party and him being self indulgent while a clear and dangerous enemy needs beating.

What I'm getting at is there's a lot of push levers away from PT and Lula himself, which explains a portion of the vote Bolsonaro received, alongside an unprecedented level of complex and costly misinformation (mostly online) campaigns - lots of votes being cast based on 'feelings' and motivated by opposition to the opponent rather than a particular love of the opponent. Again, if there's a UK analogue, I'm thinking the brexit vote and former/current Labour voters who voted in line with the leave campaign (figureheaded by politicians of seemingly rival factions and not-very-compatible politics).

All this is to add to some of the chat before about why some seemingly surprising people feature among Bolsonaro's supporters (alongside the more obvious full blooded fascist scum, religious fundamentalists, the ultra rich who've been bought, militaristic senior police, ex-military/supporters from dictatorship era etc).

My view is that there are some understandable reservations/issues that some have with Lula (especially internationally, just look at his anachronistic views on Ukraine to see proof that he's an old man who can get a little lost in entrenched simplistic ideological views from the past, despite new information - although I'm confident he'll come round on this quickly). And I'd add that since the majority of us western anti fascists (incl most media, who even if right leaning tend to be pro democracy) want Bolsonaro out desperately, there hasn't been a great amount of listening or learning about why this situation has become possible in spite of brazil's independent democratic institutions and their checks & balances. But absolutely none of those reasons are significant enough a justification to opt to vote for the fascists (worse still, cheerleading for them - looking at you Rebecca Tavares... hope you had a horrible Sunday night). That goes double for the second round of an election. If ever there was a time to 'hold your nose and vote' for the person you passionately dislike, it's when the opponent is as up front a fascist as you can see in the democratic world.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2022, 07:40:37 pm by Classycara »

Offline So… Howard Philips

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #304 on: October 31, 2022, 08:08:53 pm »

Offline thaddeus

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #305 on: October 31, 2022, 11:52:36 pm »
Yeah, but it wasnt the Union Jack flag but the St Georges Cross one that is synonymous with far right groups
I've had a somewhat sheltered life in respects of the far right.  In terms of politics though the right have certainly hijacked the Union Jack.  The BNP logo was pretty much just the Union Jack and the Johnson government wrapped themselves in it at every given opportunity.

How do you know Alisson is a decent person?
I did say "seemingly very decent person".  My view is formed from his involvements with organisations like the WHO and how Klopp - whose opinion I value very highly - speaks of him as a person.

Offline CornerFlag

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #306 on: November 1, 2022, 12:58:41 pm »
For further information;

https://www.globalcitizen.org/fr/content/liverpool-goalkeeper-alisson-vaccines/
Doesn't really mean much, I'm sure Shipman was a member of the BMA.

The public face of a person is nothing like the private face of them, I imagine Allison's stance on aspects such as LGBT+ rights, separation of church and state in Brazil, and abortion rights could be quite at odds with a lot of members of this board.  The distinction between Footballer A/B/C/etc as an on-field talent and a person as a whole is why seeing how some people praise them regardless of their views absolutely baffles me.  Football clouds things so severely in some people's eyes that it's ridiculous.

If vaccines were the sole issue for Bolsonaro then there's no way he would have polled as high as he did, 700,000 Covid deaths is a lot of blood on your hands.  But Lula's past convictions (rightly or wrongly) will always weigh on the Brazilian population's mind when voting.  It's been the equivalent of the South Park episode where a Turd Sandwich battles a Giant Douche for the school's votes in the eyes of Brazilians, no doubt.
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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #307 on: November 1, 2022, 03:16:37 pm »
Given EDL stands for English Defence League, you can understand why they went for the St George cross as opposed to the union jack.
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Offline KillieRed

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #308 on: November 1, 2022, 03:16:54 pm »
Yeah, but it wasnt the Union Jack flag but the St Georges Cross one that is synonymous with far right groups

They’re interchangeable. The Cross of St.George only seemed to become more popular with football fans around Euro 96.
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Offline TSC

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #309 on: November 1, 2022, 05:42:20 pm »
Surprise surprise and Bolsonaro is still silent.  Trump playbook.  These far right populists don’t like to surrender power

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-63467982?at_medium=RSS&at_campaign=KARANGA

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #310 on: November 1, 2022, 05:50:50 pm »
Surprise surprise and Bolsonaro is still silent.  Trump playbook.  These far right populists don’t like to surrender power

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-63467982?at_medium=RSS&at_campaign=KARANGA

Hope it doesn't get nasty, but the longer Bolsonaro stays silent the worse it will get I fear.
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Offline TSC

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #311 on: November 1, 2022, 05:58:41 pm »
Hope it doesn't get nasty, but the longer Bolsonaro stays silent the worse it will get I fear.

Similar to the US handover of power there’s a reasonable timeframe for him to plot moves.

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #312 on: November 1, 2022, 06:53:33 pm »
Similar to the US handover of power there’s a reasonable timeframe for him to plot moves.

A key difference is that Bolsonaro clearly has more support than Trump ever did. And even with Trump, he was able to position people supporting his cause in key positions like the Pentagon to stall and slow the response on Jan 6th.

I think Bolsonaro wants to play the "reluctant hero" role where he stays in power on an upwelling of popular support. ("How could I leave my people when they clearly love and need me so much?"). He's probably just gauging his support in institutions like the military to see if he can get away with it. He'll want to keep it as bloodless as possible, but probably doesn't mind spilling some.
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Offline classycarra

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #313 on: November 1, 2022, 08:55:35 pm »
A key difference is that Bolsonaro clearly has more support than Trump ever did.
Obviously there's the electoral college in the US, but on individual votes (as proportion of eligible voters)

Trump in 2022 - 74,216,154 out of around 240,000,000 - 30.9%
Bolsonaro (1st round, when it was people voting him as first preference) - 51,072,345 out of around 156,400,000 - 32.7%
Bolsonaro (2nd round) - 58,206,354 out of around 156,400,000 - 37.2%

Offline Red Beret

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #314 on: November 1, 2022, 09:34:11 pm »
Obviously there's the electoral college in the US, but on individual votes (as proportion of eligible voters)

Trump in 2022 - 74,216,154 out of around 240,000,000 - 30.9%
Bolsonaro (1st round, when it was people voting him as first preference) - 51,072,345 out of around 156,400,000 - 32.7%
Bolsonaro (2nd round) - 58,206,354 out of around 156,400,000 - 37.2%

Sounds about right. He carries more support in the military as well though, don't forget.

I'm imagine the final result doesn't reflect actual support for the candidates.  Based on what we've seen, I reckon any number of Lula supporters were either too scared to vote or actively blocked. Had they been able to vote, it wouldn't have been so tight.
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Offline Mister Flip Flop

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #315 on: November 2, 2022, 10:49:51 am »
https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/brazils-lula-says-zelenskiy-as-responsible-putin-ukraine-war-2022-05-04/

Posted in the Russia thread but worth knowing what kind of arsehole Lula is.
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Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #316 on: November 2, 2022, 10:56:33 am »
https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/brazils-lula-says-zelenskiy-as-responsible-putin-ukraine-war-2022-05-04/

Posted in the Russia thread but worth knowing what kind of arsehole Lula is.

Same reply in that thread:  Would you have prefered Bolsonaro win instead?

Have you any idea the damage that has happened under his rule??

The world is not binary, you can be wrong on somethings, and right on others!

Deforestation is currently at a record, 15 year high, in Brazil - take a guess who is responsible for that?

Lula reduced deforestation by 80%, during his previous term in office.

Without a properly functioning, Amazon Rain Forest, we are in serious trouble.
« Last Edit: November 2, 2022, 10:59:03 am by Red-Soldier »

Offline Machae

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #317 on: November 2, 2022, 11:17:33 am »
Given EDL stands for English Defence League, you can understand why they went for the St George cross as opposed to the union jack.


Lets not give the knuckle draggers any credit for rationale, logical thinking

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #318 on: November 2, 2022, 11:20:32 am »
Same reply in that thread:  Would you have prefered Bolsonaro win instead?

Have you any idea the damage that has happened under his rule??

The world is not binary, you can be wrong on somethings, and right on others!

Deforestation is currently at a record, 15 year high, in Brazil - take a guess who is responsible for that?

Lula reduced deforestation by 80%, during his previous term in office.

Without a properly functioning, Amazon Rain Forest, we are in serious trouble.

Yes i know this that doesn't make him a good guy. I mean ffs he thinks Zelenskyy is as bad as Putin. He's a complete gobshite.
Soccer - let's face it, its not really about a game of ball anymore is it?

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Re: Brazil - The next country to fall to the right
« Reply #319 on: November 2, 2022, 12:22:48 pm »
Yes i know this that doesn't make him a good guy. I mean ffs he thinks Zelenskyy is as bad as Putin. He's a complete gobshite.

I think Lula may well have created a rod for his own back with his tacit support if Putin, if and when Bolasonaro’s supporters start and ‘insurrection’.

He’ll have difficulty criticising internal violence after not condemning an actual invasion of a sovereign state.