Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"

[So… Howard Philips]

Thank goodness small toothbrush moustaches are out of fashion...
Life is a cabaret, old chum...

It didn't take too long to get from "Wilkommen" to "Tomorrow belongs to me".

[rob1966]

Can't get my head around someone retiring to Spain, spending years enjoying the benefits of that country, all possible due to EU membership, and then voting to leave the EU. There's nothing else to call it except mind-numbingly stupid.

I know a fella who has a place in France who voted leave. All his French friends were puzzled and disgusted that he voted that way.

He is a retired engineer and it is the erosion of that type of industry that caused his decision.

[stara]

https://mobile.twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/1095702144831889408

Swiss end free movement, cap UK work permit quota at 3,500, in event of no-deal exit. So much for 'rolling over' existing deals.

[Iska]

https://mobile.twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/1095702144831889408

‘Mind the gap’ strategy indeed.  So we can look forward to our pop culture being ruthlessly mined to hammer home our humiliation over the coming years.  Hike in visa costs due to Spain’s ‘Holidays In The Sun’ policy.  France to ban British workers as part of its ‘You’re shit and you know you are’ review.  That sort of thing.

[Broad Spectrum]

I know a fella who has a place in France who voted leave. All his French friends were puzzled and disgusted that he voted that way.

He is a retired engineer and it is the erosion of that type of industry that caused his decision.

The parents of my oldest friend have two apartments in the French Alps, spend a good few months in them across the year. They both voted leave. Absolute idiots.

https://mobile.twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/1095702144831889408

Swiss end free movement, cap UK work permit quota at 3,500, in event of no-deal exit. So much for 'rolling over' existing deals.

Massive Pharma presence in Switzerland that'll be a huge blow for UK citizens potentially wanting to move over there.

[Red-Soldier]

Spelman and Dromy are morons.

“.....but, but, we came up with a non-binding motion”.

Exactly.  They had the chance with Cooper and voted against it.

[Fortneef]

Great.

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/import-vat-on-parcels

That makes no sense. Surely VAT and duty is the importers problem ?
Hang on... have they got the threshold the wrong way round?

[Iska]

Great.

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/import-vat-on-parcels

This like when you’re a kid in the school holidays, and your mum’s trying to get you out the house, but you just ignore her so you can watch the end of Power Rangers - and you do get to do that, but then for the rest of the day you still have to go with her to the shops but she’s teary and stressed and on the phone all the time cancelling all the stuff she had arranged to do but you never even knew or thought about.  And you don’t even feel guilty about it, you still just feel vaguely pissed off that you didn’t get to stay home and watch TV all day like you wanted to.

[Zeb]

In attempting to prove she has a majority in Parliament backing her on Brexit, May has just lost the vote 303 to 258. She was offered a way out but preferred not to be forced to reveal what Cabinet is being told about the impact of 'no deal' Brexit. Labour also seeing a fairly large rebellion as 30 to 40 of its MPs decided they'd back the SNP attempt to seek an extension to Article 50.

[Riquende]

I don't really understand what the motion meant today. From reading it it was pretty much an "everything is pretty much fine and going to plan right now" statement. The fact it wsa defeated means things... aren't?

[Zeb]

I don't really understand what the motion meant today. From reading it it was pretty much an "everything is pretty much fine and going to plan right now" statement. The fact it wsa defeated means things... aren't?

Aye. It's a political statement. The ERG could sit out because they don't want an agreement with the EU whereas May needs to be able to show she can command a stable majority in Parliament for the EU to agree to even try to meet what she's asking for.

[ShakaHislop]

So May is going to come across as an even bigger joke the next time she jets off to Brussels. What an end to another successful week.

[rob1966]

So May is going to come across as an even bigger joke the next time she jets off to Brussels. What an end to another successful week.

The other EU leaders must be pissing themselves laughing every day as they watch this fucking idiot in action.

Been said on here before, we need the No Deal exit now - make the fucking idiots suffer for a week or two and they'll be begging to get back into the EU.

[ShakaHislop]

In attempting to prove she has a majority in Parliament backing her on Brexit, May has just lost the vote 303 to 258. She was offered a way out but preferred not to be forced to reveal what Cabinet is being told about the impact of 'no deal' Brexit. Labour also seeing a fairly large rebellion as 30 to 40 of its MPs decided they'd back the SNP attempt to seek an extension to Article 50.

Nothing in that amendment contradicts Labour policy as far as I can see, so I'm keen to know if there is a reason why it didn't receive official Labour support other than a petty "SNP=bad" mentality.

Line 1, leave out from “House” to end and add “requires that a Minister of the Crown immediately begin negotiations with the European Council to extend the period specified under Article 50(3) of the Treaty on European Union by no fewer than three months from 29 March 2019, and bring forward an appropriate amendment to section 20 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 to facilitate this change.”.

[Zeb]

Nothing in that amendment contradicts Labour policy as far as I can see, so I'm keen to know if there is a reason why it didn't receive official Labour support other than a petty "SNP=bad" mentality.

Presumably to try and avoid a rebellion on it. Was 41 Labour MPs who rebelled in the end (Labourlist).

[TheShanklyGates]

Tory minister says 'treacherous' Jacob Rees-Mogg should join Nigel Frottage's party

Business minister Richard Harrington lashed out at members of the hard-Brexiteer European Research Group

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-minister-says-treacherous-jacob-14001029

A Tory minister has sensationally accused Brexiteer MPs from his own party of "treachery" - and said they should join Nigel Frottage's new party.

Business minister Richard Harrington lashed out at members of Jacob Rees-Mogg's European Research Group (ERG) of Eurosceptic Tory backbenchers.

He suggested members should defect to Nigel Frottage's new party because they are not Conservatives.

Referring to the ERG, the minister told The House magazine: "The Prime Minister has done a pretty good job of standing up to them up till now, but they were drinking champagne to celebrate her losing her deal and I regard that as being treachery."

He added: "I read that Nigel Frottage is setting up a new party called ' Brexit ' and if I were them I'd be looking at that, because that seems to reflect their views more than the Conservative Party does.

"They should read carefully what that party's got to offer, because in my view they're not Conservatives.

"There are people who are very solid and stringent in their views and if I were they I would be looking at a party that seems designed for them - Nigel Frottage's party."

Mr Harrington, who backed Remain in the referendum, said it would give the ERG pleasure if ministers who shared his views on Brexit resigned.

He said: "If we all resigned what would then happen?

"If I were in the ERG, it would give me a lot of pleasure to see us resign.

"But we can't give in to a minority of a minority, which is what the ERG are."

Mr Harrington also dismissed the so-called Malthouse compromise, which is intended to try to bridge Tory divisions on Brexit.

The minister said: "It's basically regurgitated Canada Plus, which we know is not at all suited to our close relationship with the European Union, plus a bit of glorified number plate recognition kit, which they've got there anyway.

"I think it's just fanciful nonsense."

Mr Harrington has previously declared he is happy to be sacked by Theresa May if she objects to him speaking out about the dangers of leaving the EU without an agreement on March 29.

The one good thing that could emerge from this clusterfuck is if it breaks the Tory party.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

This could be fun

[oldfordie]

If we want to restore faith in British democracy then we need to hear a few more speeches like Dominic Grieves. he's a Tory MP as we all know but he rips into the Tory government, Labour front bench and Brexit.
https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1096083319354257409

[John C]

If we want to restore faith in British democracy then we need to hear a few more speeches like Dominic Grieves. he's a Tory MP as we all know but he rips into the Tory government, Labour front bench and Brexit.
https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1096083319354257409

The 24 hours of news coverage across dozens of media outlets facilitating hundreds of MP interviews for 2 years has never summed up the shitshow as what Grieve's said there in 2 short minutes. The line about May's sacred duty over Brexit compared to the sacred duty to the country is classic.

[killer-heels]

Poor Rory Stewart being dragged out again by the government and this time appealing to Labour to vote for the deal. He looks like one of the dead in Coco.

[oldfordie]

The 24 hours of news coverage across dozens of media outlets facilitating hundreds of MP interviews for 2 years has never summed up the shitshow as what Grieve's said there in 2 short minutes. The line about May's sacred duty over Brexit compared to the sacred duty to the country is classic.

Yeah, the same applies to the Labour front bench as well.probably even more so as Labours job is to educate the working class so the Tories can't get away with cons like Brexit. we may well end up with another referndum now, trouble is Labour leadership has made that referendum far harder to win.

[Robinred]

If we want to restore faith in British democracy then we need to hear a few more speeches like Dominic Grieves. he's a Tory MP as we all know but he rips into the Tory government, Labour front bench and Brexit.
https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1096083319354257409

Yup, excellent. Sensible, unflinching, correct.

Makes me wishful of a centrist Party - with him Soubry, Wollaston and the Harrington fella from the post above being Tories (there are many others) who could jump ship.

Would I, in an ideal world, prefer a strong, principled left-of-centre Labour administration, without the baggage of the Brown/Blair years and their cosying up to the U.S and tax dodgers? Of course.

But realistically, the choice we’re faced with at present is Hobson’s.

Moderate, pragmatic, mixed economy socialists like me have no home at the moment, we’re disenfranchised from the system. So that sense of hopeful pragmatism needs to resolve itself in a potential outcome that’s feasible.

[losCHUNK]

Aye that Grieve vid is great, that's what you need as the voice of democracy.  I think it might have been the most sense to come out of the commons in the last 2 yrs.

[oldfordie]

Yup, excellent. Sensible, unflinching, correct.

Makes me wishful of a centrist Party - with him Soubry, Wollaston and the Harrington fella from the post above being Tories (there are many others) who could jump ship.

Would I, in an ideal world, prefer a strong, principled left-of-centre Labour administration, without the baggage of the Brown/Blair years and their cosying up to the U.S and tax dodgers? Of course.

But realistically, the choice we’re faced with at present is Hobson’s.

Moderate, pragmatic, mixed economy socialists like me have no home at the moment, we’re disenfranchised from the system. So that sense of hopeful pragmatism needs to resolve itself in a potential outcome that’s feasible.

It's tragic really. this is about the basics to be a successful country, we shouldn't really need to be arguing over stuff like this both parties should have this priority, the governments job is to create a competitive trading environment for our companies to prosper, it provides the country with jobs and revenue to provide a decent NHS,welfare etc. being members of the EU gave us this competitive trading environment and more. the only arguments ive heard to justify Brexit is what they don't like and a princible of nobody telling us what to do.
Unfortunately ideology makes people loose sight of this goal. it matters little if your left wing or right wing, you can't do anything good when the countries economy is f...
I want politics to change in this country, our MPs went too far. the only thing needed for any new party like this is honest politicians who are willing to stand up and be counted. take back control from the nutters. fight to hold the liars to account.

[Machae]

If we want to restore faith in British democracy then we need to hear a few more speeches like Dominic Grieves. he's a Tory MP as we all know but he rips into the Tory government, Labour front bench and Brexit.
https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1096083319354257409

Just a shame the chamber was largely empty

[FlashingBlade]

It's tragic really. this is about the basics to be a successful country, we shouldn't really need to be arguing over stuff like this both parties should have this priority, the governments job is to create a competitive trading environment for our companies to prosper, it provides the country with jobs and revenue to provide a decent NHS,welfare etc. being members of the EU gave us this competitive trading environment and more. the only arguments ive heard to justify Brexit is what they don't like and a princible of nobody telling us what to do.
Unfortunately ideology makes people loose sight of this goal. it matters little if your left wing or right wing, you can't do anything good when the countries economy is f...
I want politics to change in this country, our MPs went too far. the only thing needed for any new party like this is honest politicians who are willing to stand up and be counted. take back control from the nutters. fight to hold the liars to account.

Post Brexit will open up fisures in British society , politics and economy. It may take years to fully understand the implications...but one thing is clear unless your are locked into an ideological silo...the loss of trust in the British political estsblishment will be realised very quickly..as parties rupture internally..voters give up on traditional party loyalty..opening up a new era of politics...no one will be trusted anymore.

Brexit has so many aspects not one issue can adequately explain things...but the farce of the past few months can be laid at the failing of a polarised two party system when unity and compromise was needed to navigate the country through a self inflicted mess.

[oldfordie]

Post Brexit will open up fisures in British society , politics and economy. It may take years to fully understand the implications...but one thing is clear unless your are locked into an ideological silo...the loss of trust in the British political estsblishment will be realised very quickly..as parties rupture internally..voters give up on traditional party loyalty..opening up a new era of politics...no one will be trusted anymore.

Brexit has so many aspects not one issue can adequately explain things...but the farce of the past few months can be laid at the failing of a polarised two party system when unity and compromise was needed to navigate the country through a self inflicted mess.

It's been the perfect storm as you say many things occurred to bring this about, Ive mentioned it a few times but I don't know how are politicians can think they can get away with what's happened over the last 2 yrs. they seem to think they will be able to get back to everyday politics after we leave, no chance, 16 mil+ voters are furious over being ignored for over 2 yrs, they've had to listen to both parties telling them we must respect the referendum which is a credible argument but the real damage was their lies to keep Brexit on track, unforgivable and irresponsible.
Am sure the hard right will still carry on coning the gullible, the left are finished after Brexit which will possibly mean Labour are finished after Brexit, this was a golden opportunity to prove to the country that they aren't the nutters many seem to think,  they blew it big time. there are millions of voters in the UK who have had enough, they have lost respect for many of our MPs. they will face a backlash in years to come. nobody knows where this will lead but the writings been on the wall for over a year. life long Labour voters walking away from Labour looking for a party they can trust, am sure there are millions of Tory voters who feel the same.

[FlashingBlade]

I agree mate....time for the batton to be handed over to the youth and decide where they want the country to go. Labour lost me as a voter and member because of their stance ...or lack of it ...over  Brexit....I know this is true of quite a few friends too...I'm sure come the next genersl election they may feel the need to rally round Labour ( without Corbyn)...but Im sure some will be swayed by a centre party or the greens. What is really needed is the end to the two party system and PR..with the warts and all that entails.

[Kashinoda]

What would a new centrist party be called? The Liberal Conservatives?

[Zeb]

What would a new centrist party be called? The Liberal Conservatives?

Usually called National Government when it happens.

[oldfordie]

What would a new centrist party be called? The Liberal Conservatives?

I wouldn't be arsed what the name is.
It's not about being a centrist Party it's about a party with MPs people can trust.
I think Brexit has shown us the so called centrists are the politicians who put the countries best interests first rather than their own personal interests ,job security or ideology. it's surprising they are called centrists under the political climate today, the centrists have stood up to the rabble, they have fought tooth and nail despite the abuse and intimidation for the best interests of the people of this country.

[Ghost Town]

Have they though? How many 'centrists' have really done or said anything worthwhile? How many have actually told the truth about what Brexit means, or actually said, clearly and unambiguosly - and regularly - that what the UK actually needs is to Remain. That the UK actually needs to IGNORE the results of a bent referendum that should never have occured in the first place, because the people are not qualified to make such a decision?

How many? The odd David Lammy here or there, but who else? Even Grieve has only finally said something vaguely worthwhile after two years of being 'spineless', as another poster here charges.

Virtually all of them have brought in - to one degree or another - to the 'we must respect the result' and '17.2m blah blha blah' crap without rolling up their sleeves and actually trying to educate the country - including the 17.2m - about why the 2016 result is wrong and damaging and unworkable and therefore MUST be stopped. Not softened or finessed or hand-wrung about, but STOPPED.

Think there's too much valorising here of an 'idea' of a laudable centrist base that does not match the reality. And that's why I think that politics will NOT particuarly change after this.

Things will just carry on as they are, despite this utter shitshow, because we, the electorate, have a remarkable facility for self-delusion and an endless ability to forgive and  a tendency to see what we want in the actions and words of our politicians, even when it is not there.

[redbyrdz]

Centrist is the wrong term, this is not about right vs left. I would argue it is more about conservative vs liberal, where conservative means set in their ways, traditional, authoritarian, and liberal means open, willing to accept other ways and democratic.

While this may seem obvious about the conservative party, it also applies to the labour party. Corbyn and Momentum are not part of a liberal left (or even anarcho as Gulley has tried to imply a couple of times), but of a conservative, authoritarian (and marxist) left. Despite the talks of 'members direct policy' labour continue to ignore a large part (maybe even a majority) of their members and voters. Corbyn continues to ignore party opinion while pressing ahead with a hard Brexit. He doesn't want a second referendum because 'he knows what the people want'. That's not democratic! He continues to push for a new GE, because he values being in power above everything else. That is definitively not 'anarcho'.

I do see that there is a need for a new party, and for both labour and the conservatives to split. But it would be a party formed more of the liberal, pro-european, anti-nationalist parts of both parties, not the 'centrists' ones. If the lib dems hadn't lost so much of their political influence, you could see them offering a good middle ground for new influx. I can see them as being a bit too market liberal for some, but I'm not sure why there haven't been at least a few changeovers.

[Devon Red]

The one good thing that could emerge from this clusterfuck is if it breaks the Tory party.

and the Labour party

[Dr. Beaker]

Have they though? How many 'centrists' have really done or said anything worthwhile? How many have actually told the truth about what Brexit means, or actually said, clearly and unambiguosly - and regularly - that what the UK actually needs is to Remain. That the UK actually needs to IGNORE the results of a bent referendum that should never have occured in the first place, because the people are not qualified to make such a decision?

How many? The odd David Lammy here or there, but who else? Even Grieve has only finally said something vaguely worthwhile after two years of being 'spineless', as another poster here charges.

Virtually all of them have brought in - to one degree or another - to the 'we must respect the result' and '17.2m blah blha blah' crap without rolling up their sleeves and actually trying to educate the country - including the 17.2m - about why the 2016 result is wrong and damaging and unworkable and therefore MUST be stopped. Not softened or finessed or hand-wrung about, but STOPPED.

Think there's too much valorising here of an 'idea' of a laudable centrist base that does not match the reality. And that's why I think that politics will NOT particuarly change after this.

Things will just carry on as they are, despite this utter shitshow, because we, the electorate, have a remarkable facility for self-delusion and an endless ability to forgive and  a tendency to see what we want in the actions and words of our politicians, even when it is not there.

I would have thought, above all others, Owen Smith deserved a mention.

[red1977]

I can always take Dutch nationality if required. A few mates have already due to disgust at the UK's attitude. Understandable really.

Did you get the letter from the IND stating that UK nationals rights will be reserved in the Netherlands in the event of no deal?. We should get an application through after March 29th. You should not need to get dutch nationality, unless you want to of course.

[cloggypop]

Did you get the letter from the IND stating that UK nationals rights will be reserved in the Netherlands in the event of no deal?. We should get an application through after March 29th. You should not need to get dutch nationality, unless you want to of course.

I did and it's sound so long as I am just working in the Netherlands but in the past I've been based here while working in Germany, Belgium, France and Denmark and I don't want to give up that option really.

Mate of mine took Dutch nationality and is currently driving the UK Subs around most of Europe as tour manager. That would be a nightmare in a few months.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I find it difficult to believe there is a country with thicker politicians. They are stupid. Inept. Dishonest. Pointless and a complete waste of time.

[Iska]

Mate of mine took Dutch nationality and is currently driving the UK Subs around most of Europe as tour manager. That would be a nightmare in a few months.

Hold on, he’s driving a bus around Europe with ‘the UK subs’ on it?  Is he Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson?

[Dr. Beaker]

I find it difficult to believe there is a country with thicker politicians. They are stupid. Inept. Dishonest. Pointless and a complete waste of time.

I think you can only say that if you think that they have the country's best interest at heart, because obviously they are failing miserably in that regard.

The real problem for them however is that they largely only have their own interests at heart, and knowing what is best to do for their own benefit is extremely difficult because the country is completely divided, and not along party lines.