Topic: Doping In Sport..

[dave 5516]

Past Tour de France winners and their involvement  with drugs.
From wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Tour_de_France

Many caught on more than one occasion, others declared once they retired.
The information they provide about Luis Ocana is wrong. I know he tested positive the year before he retired. Hinault was never caught, but he refused to pass antidoping controls in some races.

I wonder if there has ever been a Tour de France winner completely clean. Many say Lemond, but it just doesn';t make sense to me that a rider is able to win it when there are so many cases before and after that were at it, some of them the biggest names the race has ever produced.

If you look back until the epo era started cyclist's relied on steroid's and amphetamines to get stronger and go faster.The best rider's still won because they were the best rider's.

With epo that's not the case.Armstrong was never a gc contender until he worked with Ferrari.Riis was never going to win a tour,yet the year he did he was super strong with only Ullrich coming close to matching him.

As to Lemond ,Fignon and Hinault they were gifted cyclist's from an early age,clean or not they would have won gt's.I Don't think you can say that of other's since,possibly Ullrich.
 
On that list,Delgado tested positive for probenecid a masking agent for steroids which while banned by the IOC but wasn't banned by the UCI.

Roche was accused of doping by in 200 La Republica and in March that year Italian judge Oliva published a report into the Carrera team and sporting doctor's in cycling.And later in 2004 judge Oliva  stated that Roche had used epo in 1993.

As to Mig,He's one of my favourite's but I don't think he won  all he did while clean.

[Spanish Fan]

You don't think Wiggins (assuming her wins) is clean?

By "definition" I don't believe in Wiggins or any other rider that may win the race. Unless there is a drastic drop in average speed I will still keep believing that these guys are at it. The controls seem to be more stringent these days, but full proof? They are still racing at a speed higher than during the wild EPO years. Maybe a believer can account for this. I long ago lost my faith in this sport..and the rest.

[Spanish Fan]

If you look back until the epo era started cyclist's relied on steroid's and amphetamines to get stronger and go faster.The best rider's still won because they were the best rider's.

With epo that's not the case.Armstrong was never a gc contender until he worked with Ferrari.Riis was never going to win a tour,yet the year he did he was super strong with only Ullrich coming close to matching him.

As to Lemond ,Fignon and Hinault they were gifted cyclist's from an early age,clean or not they would have won gt's.I Don't think you can say that of other's since,possibly Ullrich.
 
On that list,Delgado tested positive for probenecid a masking agent for steroids which while banned by the IOC but wasn't banned by the UCI.

Roche was accused of doping by in 200 La Republica and in March that year Italian judge Oliva published a report into the Carrera team and sporting doctor's in cycling.And later in 2004 judge Oliva  stated that Roche had used epo in 1993.

As to Mig,He's one of my favourite's but I don't think he won  all he did while clean.

I don't deny that EPO was the magic pill, capable of immensely improve certain cyclists performances, but before EPO existed there were amphetamines, steroids and even blood doping, all very powerful ingredients to keep cyclists going or recuperate faster after a race. Fausto Coppi used to say that he only took amphetamines when he needed them, which was "almost always". Testosterone helped cyclist recover from the races, the same as cortisone. Moser beat the hour world record using blood doping. If so many athletes were at it it must have been because it helped.

The you can't ride the Tour de France on mineral water is as old as the Tour itself. Did Merck or Fignon doped whereas Hinault and Lemond didn't? Very hard to believe.

[TepidT2O]

Seriously, read into it.

I have read into it...

It's utterly damning, what could possibly stop it being utterly damning?

Explain please!

[dave 5516]

I don't deny that EPO was the magic pill, capable of immensely improve certain cyclists performances, but before EPO existed there were amphetamines, steroids and even blood doping, all very powerful ingredients to keep cyclists going or recuperate faster after a race. Fausto Coppi used to say that he only took amphetamines when he needed them, which was "almost always". Testosterone helped cyclist recover from the races, the same as cortisone. Moser beat the hour world record using blood doping. If so many athletes were at it it must have been because it helped.

The you can't ride the Tour de France on mineral water is as old as the Tour itself. Did Merck or Fignon doped whereas Hinault and Lemond didn't? Very hard to believe.

I'm of a mind that cyclist's at the top have always and now always will dope.Not all of them,but to win a gt then yes.

You and I are jaded by year's of lie's and duplicity from the UCI down to the soigneurs.

Cycling need's to ripped apart from top to bottom.

The first thing I would like to see is all team's made to post their blood value's.Also independent doctor's embedded with team's at gt's,not doctor's employed by the team's.

[Spanish Fan]

As to Mig,He's one of my favourite's but I don't think he won  all he did while clean.

Forgot to comment on this. Big Mig team doctor was the infamous Sabino Padilla, nicknamed in Spain Sabino Pastillas (Sabino pills) . He was Athletic Bilbao team doctor when Gurpegui was caught for Nandrolone, the only player sanctioned for a doping offence in Spanish football.
Indurain was once asked by a famous Spanish journalist if he ever took drugs in an informal interview, but he should only reply if he was telling the truth and Indurain answer was "next question".

And there were connections of his Banesto team and suspicious Italian doctors such as Conconi. You wanted to believe it was not one of "yours", and at the time I believed he was clean. I also believed Delgado, but I was naive and too patriotic.  Delgado got away because the substance he took, a masking agent, was not yet forbidden by the UCI, and the UCI president, by then a Spaniard, did the rest.

[pewithree3]

Lassi Viron, a Finnish long distance runner used to have some blood
drained off in the winter season then have it re-infused before big events,
Olympics  etc.
This blood was full of red cells and had a similar effect as using epo now.

Is this doping?

Some years ago a number of cyclists died from using epo, they infused
epo before stage races but crashed out so they did not deplete their
red cell count causing heart attacks.

[dave 5516]

Lassi Viron, a Finnish long distance runner used to have some blood
drained off in the winter season then have it re-infused before big events,
Olympics  etc.
This blood was full of red cells and had a similar effect as using epo now.

Is this doping?

Some years ago a number of cyclists died from using epo, they infused
epo before stage races but crashed out so they did not deplete their
red cell count causing heart attacks.

In cycling blood packing ala Viren is banned.But it's allowed in football,if I recall correctly Chelsea use it as an aid to recovery.

In cycling after a spate death's cyclist's had to be woken every 4 hour's so they could get there soup thick blood running properly.

[marko35s]

If they dope tested everyone on the Tour would there actually be anyone left allowed to ride?

Lots.
Those guys on the motorbikes for a start...

[Mouth]

I keep reading this as dogging in sport, umm carry on.

[Redallover11]

Very hard to believe any of the winners are actually clean in certain sports. Weightlifting, cycling, sprinting etc. Don't even know if there is a way to control it to be honest. The masking agents and technology is so good now, the doctor/chemist should be allowed on the podium to receive acclaim also.

You could then look at the winner and see the winning doctor too. Then depending on his clients you could have a chemists league championship as well. A little like the constructors championship in F1.

[pewithree3]

The blokes on motorbikes must be on speed,
they are lunatics.

 

[Spanish Fan]

In cycling blood packing ala Viren is banned.But it's allowed in football,if I recall correctly Chelsea use it as an aid to recovery.

In cycling after a spate death's cyclist's had to be woken every 4 hour's so they could get there soup thick blood running properly.

You are not remembering well. The treatments Chelsea players and players from other clubs receive is to treat injuries. They remove the platelets from the blood and then inject them in the injured area which speeds up recovery. Barcelona also use this treatment. But they surely have used the other treatment too, when it was legal and when it wasn't. Beckenbauer among others has spoken about his blood treatments before anti doping controls in football took place (they obviously always stop once they are forbidden).

And talking about blood manipulation. In the 90's the Parma team was subjected to a surprise blood test and their third goalkeeper was found with an hematocrit level of 63. Not even Riis went that high hehehe.

Barcelona offered a certain Eufemiano Fuentes to join their medical department while Nunez was the president, Real Madrid had another infamous Spanish doctor sending them urine samples. The Juve case.....Confessions by ex footballers, ex doctors, ex masseurs. You join the dots and the picture that emerges is very similar to cycling, but with far less antidoping controls.
We don't want players to play 35 instead of 70 games a year. Do we?

[dave 5516]

That's it mate thank's.

Football's a much richer sport than cycling and it would be stupid to think doping doesn't take place.Why else would Toure have been taking a masking agent in the form of a diuretic.

I don't watch English football other than Liverpool,but this year I saw a game with player's on each side who looked to me to be on HGH.I could be wrong,but long jawline's and huge forehead's normally mean one thing only.

Back to cycling and below is a quote from Wiggins around the time of Rasmussen's removal from the tour.Rabo's team doctor at the time is now Sky's...


If there's a 1% suspicion or doubt that a team is involved in any way in a drugs ring or doping or working with certain doctors, then they shouldn't be invited to the Tour de France - as simple as that - they shouldn't even be given a racing licence until they can prove that they are, through stringent testing procedures, that they are not involved in any wrong doing - until then the ASO shouldn't have them in the Tour de France and the UCI should not have them in the sport.

[HighSix]

Not much to contribute really but this thread is becoming must read for me.... Thanks for the articles, links & shared knowledge!

(I then accidently posted it in the Pro Cycling thread! ha!)

[rednich85]

Alistair Overeem is genetically engineered to fuck your girlfriend.

[kaz1983]

Here's a very good documentary on drugs in athletics, it's called The Race (its about the 1988 Olympic 100 meters final):

http://www.sbs.com.au/documentary/program/952

For the first time ever all eight finalists of the dramatic men’s 100m final at the 1988 Seoul Olympics tell their story.
The 100 metre sprint final at the 1988 Seoul Olympics was the fastest and dirtiest race in history. Six of the eight runners have since tested positive for banned substances. Ben Johnson, the winner, received a career destroying ban, whilst his rival, Carl Lewis, had failed three drug tests prior to the competition, and British runner Linford Christie, who finished second, was eventually banned for a series of drug test failures. In this program, Johnson and other runners will tell their personal stories of the race, and also put into context how and why athletes become drug cheats.

Here's an old article about that race:

The most corrupt race ever


The 1988 Olympic 100 metres final was one of the most dramatic races in the history of the Games. Ben Johnson may have failed a drugs test and been stripped of his gold medal but, as Lee Honeyball writes, he was not the only guilty athlete on that famous afternoon in Seoul

Sunday 1 August 2004
Observer Sport Monthly

Of the eight athletes who competed in the 100metres final at the 1988 Seoul Olympics - the most explosive and exhilarating race ever run - five have failed drugs tests. The first came within hours. Ben Johnson, who had blasted to victory in a then world-record time of 9.79 seconds, tested positive for the anabolic steroid stanozolol and was stripped of his gold.
The race had been badly tarnished, but the cheat, held up as the embodiment of disgrace by the athletes who had trailed in his wake, had been outed and the rightful winner, Carl Lewis, had been found. Or had he?

The warning signs were originally ignored. In a rare interview in 1996, Johnson said: 'Yes, I was taking steroids, but so were others on the starting line that day. They know it. I know it. That's all that counts. If people are naive enough to believe that athletes don't take drugs, that is their problem.'

Over the past eight years Johnson's claims - dismissed at the time as being those of an embittered man - have gained more credence. Doubts about the others may have taken longer to surface, but four of the athletes who toiled behind Johnson that afternoon in Seoul have now failed tests. And who knows today, after the Balco scandal, which athletes are clean and which are cheats?

1 DENNIS MITCHELL

Time: 10.04

Position: 4th

Banned for two years after testing positive for excessive levels of testosterone in 1998. The American's defence of 'five bottles of beer and sex with his wife at least four times' the night before giving the urine sample saw him cleared by USA Track & Field, but not by the IAAF. Now 38, he works as an athletics coach in Florida.

2 DESAI WILLIAMS

Time: 10.11

Position: 6th

Williams was, at 29, the oldest runner in the field. He never figured prominently in the race despite running a personal best. He was implicated in the Canadian government's 1989 inquiry into the use of performance-enhancing drugs by their athletes and later admitted to using steroids. He is now a coach based in Toronto.

3 BEN JOHNSON

Time: 9.79

Position: Disqualified

After being stripped of gold in Seoul, Johnson returned to athletics two years later but failed a second test in 1993 and was banned for life. 'I could have run 9.72 if I had not shut down at 94 metres,' he says of his world record run. Now 42, he lives in Toronto where has set up a clothes label. 'I don't watch the sport any more. It's a waste of time. Nobody impresses me.'

4 CALVIN SMITH

Time: 9.99

Position: Bronze

The former world-record holder is the only man in the first five still untarnished by drug allegations. 'I should have been the gold medallist,' he has said. 'During the last five years of my career I knew I was being denied the chance to show I was the best clean runner.' Now 43, he teaches English literature in Tampa, Florida.

5 LINFORD CHRISTIE

Time: 9.97

Position: Silver

Following the final, Christie failed a drugs test for the stimulant ephedrine, but was later cleared on appeal after convincing the panel he had taken it inadvertently when drinking ginseng tea. The 1992 Olympic gold medallist then received a two-year ban in 1999 after testing positive for nandrolone. Now 44, he works as an athletics coach and television presenter.

6 CARL LEWIS

Time: 9.92

Position: Gold

Known for sanctimonious speeches against opponents who took drugs, it emerged last year that Lewis failed three tests at the 1988 Olympic trials (these were covered up at the time). The American Olympic body accepted his appeal that he had innocently taken a herbal supplement. Now 43, he is pursuing a career as an actor and fitness coach.

7 RAY STEWART

Time: 12.26

Position: Last

Having been runner-up in the previous year's world championships, Stewart trailed in last, suffering from a leg injury. 'Based on what happened after the Olympics, everyone was on drugs,' he says. 'There was a lot more [drug taking going on] than people were hearing about.' Now 39, Stewart is an athletics coach in Texas.

8 ROBSON DE SILVA

Time: 10.11

Position: 5th

De Silva may have struggled to keep up in the 100m final, but he did win a medal at the Seoul Games - a silver in the 200m. 'I just remember watching Ben Johnson's back,' he said recently. 'He was moving as if at the speed of light. He was just incredible.' Since retiring in 1997, de Silva has returned to Rio de Janeiro where he works as an athletics commentator.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/osm/story/0,,1270863,00.html

[Flon]

Never going to happen but would love to see separate doped competitions just for the entertainment value. You can still have your non-doped up athletes and competitions but if you're bored on a weekday afternoon you could watch a man running the 100m in 6 seconds flat on the telly.

[Ziltoid]

Here's a very good documentary on drugs in athletics, it's called The Race (its about the 1988 Olympic 100 meters final):

http://www.sbs.com.au/documentary/program/952

Here's an old article about that race:

Saw this on the BBC last night - was a good programme.  Still a lot of animosity between Johnson and Lewis. One of the doctors said that a sure way to know if an athlete was taking a growth hormone was that they would be wearing braces on their teeth as it pushed out the jaw (or something) - cut to Carl Lewis 5 minutes later flashing a smile with braces!  Then at the end the doctor who still had samples from the US 84 Olympic teams - he decided to test them all again with the testing kits they have now.  He gave up as it seemed that everyone was positive - he didn't publish his findings as he thought it would cause a massive shitstorm so to speak.   

[Vinay]

I have always wondered whether, with his prominent jaw and braces, Lewis was always clean.

[stewy17]

I did an essay on Doping and the Law when I was at Uni, it was mainly from the legal perspective and the incongruity between the rules/regulations/laws in different sports and territories at the time. I must admit I have only kept a passing interest since but understand that WADA have still not managed to implement global regulations across all sports.

Playing devil's advocate, is there not an argument for doping, well perhaps not doping but for medical advances which assist athletes development and push the boundaries of what the human body can do? Obviously so long as there is no risk to the athletes and as long as the methods are available to all competitors, why can't medical advances can go hand in hand with advances in equipment and sporting technology?

[MBL?]

Was always going to come up during the games but I am very suspicious of the Chinese girl who won the medley smashing the world record whilst also swimming the last split faster than the men.

In fact I'm suspicious of loads of athletes it's just that this one really stands out.

[El_Capitán]

Was always going to come up during the games but I am very suspicious of the Chinese girl who won the medley smashing the world record whilst also swimming the last split faster than the men.

In fact I'm suspicious of loads of athletes it's just that this one really stands out.

Got to say, the swimming one caught my eye too. The girl, Ye, is only 16 as well. The speed of the last split was almost unnatural.

[Anywhichwayicant]

Nobody is stupid enough to obliterate the field in such a manner, if they were on some sort of drugs.


If she was on drugs, she would have held back a little, and not made it so questionable.

[HighSix]

maybe its just Waterworld coming true.

[Ziltoid]

You do get "freaks of nature" once in a while and I think she's one - look at the size of her and her stroke seems so effortless to watch (a bit like Bolt when he gets into his upright phase).  I was probably one of the few that regarded Bolt in the same way whilst others were saying "he can't do that unless he's on something".

[LiverLuke]

Nobody is stupid enough to obliterate the field in such a manner, if they were on some sort of drugs.


If she was on drugs, she would have held back a little, and not made it so questionable.

can they actually tell where they are in the field when they are swimming? I don't ever see them look across

[Chakan]

can they actually tell where they are in the field when they are swimming? I don't ever see them look across

Yes they can, you can see them changing the side they breathe from to see where other competitors are.

[Ziltoid]

can they actually tell where they are in the field when they are swimming? I don't ever see them look across

They know a lot; the American Missy Franklin I think it was actually looked up at the scoreboard in her heat and saw she was on WR pace and eased off a bit (well according to the commentators/pundits)

[dave 5516]

Give this a read.

http://www.theage.com.au/world/china-fooled-into-olympic-doping-20120727-22zvg.html

Orwell had it right.


"Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealousy, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence: in other words it is war minus the shooting"

[monkeyharris]

"Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealousy, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence: in other words it is war minus the shooting"

And for those reasons alone Dave I love it!

[Zeb]

Great article on Ye Shinwen, and how all the calls of 'drug abuse' are borderline racist bollocks.

http://www.dermothunt.com/blog/?p=178

It's pretty bollocks to be honest; I have a blog, I have a blog, controversial title, I have a blog.

It confuses medley with freestyle which is apples to oranges (he even seems to have thought Addlington swam in the same event). It confuses two things not being treated equally with there being no questions about either. And it seems to miss the simple recognition that the curve for most athletes is a sudden progression into the world class elite rather than an already world class athlete making a sudden further spurt beyond that. It even seems to confuse the issue that Leonard was clearly talking about superwoman in terms of performance rather than physical appearance. So, yeah, bollocks. Not saying there isn't some casual generalisations going on, but then when a nation has had three or four times the number of swimmers found doping in international tournaments than any other nation in the past generation, then it's hard to say that there isn't some grounds for suspicion when clearly extraordinary things are happening. And it is extraordinary.

It may not be nice, it may not be fair to focus on her alone given other performances, but there is some odd stuff around the young Chinese lady's performance to win the gold medal in that manner.

I've no doubt she'll be found clean this Olympics. Will be interesting to see whether that remains the case over the next 8 years.

[blah]

I just don't understand how a 16 year old girl can outperform two fully grown men at the top of their sport. Perhaps a better muscle/weight ratio?

If her time is 100% legit, just imagine her in a few years once she finishes growing.

Regarding China and cheating though, they did have those dodgy gymnasts in Beijing.

[Anywhichwayicant]

I just don't understand how a 16 year old girl can outperform two fully grown men at the top of their sport. Perhaps a better muscle/weight ratio?

If her time is 100% legit, just imagine her in a few years once she finishes growing.

Regarding China and cheating though, they did have those dodgy gymnasts in Beijing.

She has passed tests.

[Barneylfc∗]

She has been tested and is clean. Good to see that

[Kashinoda]

It's pretty bollocks to be honest; I have a blog, I have a blog, controversial title, I have a blog.

It confuses medley with freestyle which is apples to oranges (he even seems to have thought Addlington swam in the same event). It confuses two things not being treated equally with there being no questions about either. And it seems to miss the simple recognition that the curve for most athletes is a sudden progression into the world class elite rather than an already world class athlete making a sudden further spurt beyond that. It even seems to confuse the issue that Leonard was clearly talking about superwoman in terms of performance rather than physical appearance. So, yeah, bollocks. Not saying there isn't some casual generalisations going on, but then when a nation has had three or four times the number of swimmers found doping in international tournaments than any other nation in the past generation, then it's hard to say that there isn't some grounds for suspicion when clearly extraordinary things are happening. And it is extraordinary.

It may not be nice, it may not be fair to focus on her alone given other performances, but there is some odd stuff around the young Chinese lady's performance to win the gold medal in that manner.

I've no doubt she'll be found clean this Olympics. Will be interesting to see whether that remains the case over the next 8 years.

I know it's only Wikipedia but why do China only appear 8 times on this list, but America appear there 119 times:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_sport

Generally interested as to why there aren't more Chinese athletes aren't on there if they have such a bad reputation?

[Dread Breath]

She has passed tests.

So did a lot of other athletes while doping.

[eirwen]

I just don't understand how a 16 year old girl can outperform two fully grown men at the top of their sport. Perhaps a better muscle/weight ratio?

She didn't. Focusing on the last 50m on a 400m race is meaningless.

[eirwen]

So did a lot of other athletes while doping.

If one of them is doing it, so is everyone. This talk about this country has a bad rep or whatever is just BS. Every single country has its history. Doping definitely exists but I don't believe for one second it only happens in some countries rather than others. Sports is competitive, if athletes can find a way to get around the rules, they will.

[Anywhichwayicant]

So did a lot of other athletes while doping.

Even more have passed them, while not doping.