Topic: Change and the inevitability of pain

[Vulmea]

Well it's nice to be asked!

I think your take on the appointment feels right. I also think Kenny's approach grated with FSG - the poor PR , the equal priority given to cups, the insistence that he wouldn't swap a league cup victory for anything - but it boils down to who's advising FSG and was the decision a purely commercial one rather than a footballing one.

The details around the league cup victory are typical of this season - immediately afterwards scattered to the 4 corners of the world on an international friendly - no chance to build on the momentum before an early saturday kick off against the in form team in the league - with two first XI players coming back injured and a third lost in the final itself - outplaying Arsenal but losing to a last minute goal which effectively looked to end the chance of 4th - it was a typical perfect storm of circumstances - one a mentally strong team may have overcome, one that we didn't.

I dont think FSG bother with details though, they aren't equipped for them, they have no real knowledge of the game they look at trends and end results.

So I'm not saying there weren't issues on the footballing side - it was not right how we lost focus in the league before cup games, it was not right how we fell away at the end of the season (both seasons actually), it was not right how fragile we were in games when we conceded or failed to score, it was not right how players failed to settle and underperformed for so long - these were real issues with Kenny's side I think - issues that may have been addressed next season with a new focus and belief - but were these the reasons he's gone? Its more likely the end results and league position gave FSG an excuse they needed and were happy to take, I dont think they looked any further than that.

Unfortunately time wont be able to tell if they were right. We'll never know how successful Kenny may or may not have been whatever comes next.

[Not A Scouser]

As you can tell by my name on this forum I am not a scouser, don't and haven't lived in the area, never been to a game at Anfield.  I am one of the "new" fans, but I started watching and supporting Liverpool in the early 80's.  I've been a fan for thirty years.  Why did I become a fan of Liverpool if I didn't live in the area?  Because I loved football, played it as a child every single moment I could.  I dribbled my ball to and from school.  However, my parents didn't care the slightest amount.  They never watched a game I played (fine by me) or took me to see a game.  I lived in Salisbury, went to a rugby school, and never went to a professional game through no fault of my own.  What I could see as far as football was a game on tv once a week, and the team that was on tv almost every week in the early 80's was Liverpool.  Why?  Because they were the best team in England, and possibly the world.

To this day Liverpool have the widest spread of supporters in England.  The average distance of a Liverpool fan in England is further away than that of every club.  The reason for this is success.  However, once you become a fan, you tend to stay a fan.  I'm not less of a fan than I was because Liverpool haven't won the League in twenty years.  I'm not claiming to know and love the traditions of Liverpool as much as a native Liverpudlian who has been a season ticket holder for forty years, how could I?  It doesn't mean that YNWA doesn't send chills down my spine, or that I don't love the applause for other teams that play well, or that "this is Anfield doesn't mean anything to me.  It doesn't mean that a goal doesn't thrill or hurt depending on who scores it.

I loved seeing Kenny's reaction to a goal for Liverpool.  It clearly meant as much to him as to anyone who has ever supported the club.  I loved watching him play.  There is no-one I wanted to succeed at Liverpool more than him.  But I was 5,000 miles away in a place with no news of English football during Hillsborough.  I can't possibly understand what that means to those who were around at the time, I just can't.  I don't know the full legend of Kenny Dalglish and never will.

However, from my understanding the tradition of Liverpool includes ruthlessness.  "Lose your legs on someone else's pitch."  The support that lifted Liverpool from a local club, to a national club, to a worldwide club was based on success.  Without that success there would not be that support.  Without that support Liverpool would be a mid-level club.  Liverpool as a mid-level club would not have that success.  Liverpool would be a club that was once great but never would be again, like Wolves, Nottingham Forest etc..  Every single club thinks their club is special, with its own traditions, own style, own legends.

I suppose the point I am trying to make is that it doesn't have to be one thing or the other.  It can be complex, with a range of responses.  I feel bad about Kenny leaving because he's Kenny.  I think the team will probably do better in the long run without him.  From what I know of the "Liverpool Way" it constantly searches for success.  It also thinks of the club as a collective.  It also can be ruthless with regards to those who aren't achieving the requisite success.  It also involves appreciation for those who have left when they return to Anfield unlike any other club I have seen.  I think that ruthlessness and sentimentality are both part of the Liverpool Way.  Would Bill Shankly have kept Dalglish on as manager after this season if he was the owner?  Would the fans have loved Dalglish any less as a result?  Is the tradition of keeping managers longer at Liverpool simply the result of great managers and fantastic results?  Didn't Liverpool achieve success because of change?  Did this lead inevitably to pain?  Does the Liverpool Way always look backwards or does it try to move forwards?  Does it do a bit of both?

Wouldn't it be great if the two groups of fans were just fans, each providing a different viewpoint to each other?  Wouldn't it be great if those steeped in the tradition of Liverpool could teach those traditions to fans like me?  Wouldn't it be great if fans like me could teach the perspective of modern football, how it is possible to truly be a fan of Liverpool and still understand that money matters for success and that what worked twenty years ago doesn't work anymore?  The fans of the 60's weren't like the fans of the 70's who weren't like the fans of the 80's and so on.  To be the most knowledgeable, best fans in the world we need to teach each other what we know, support the club and each other.  Being a football fan inevitably involves pain and joy, experienced at the same time by every Liverpool fan in the world.  Otherwise we wouldn't be fans.

"The socialism I believe in is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards."

[Vulmea]

To this day Liverpool have the widest spread of supporters in England.  The average distance of a Liverpool fan in England is further away than that of every club.  The reason for this is success.

 "The socialism I believe in is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards."

Some issues to consider:

1. Liverpool were successful before they became a world wide brand - the success came first - its not a pre-requisite just as it hasn't been for City or Chelsea -  in terms of fans we currently dwarf them without having won a title for 20 years. Timing was crucial as TV just kicked off during those years meaning LFC was probably the first successful side to be seen in many places.

2. One of the reasons for the wide spread support -  is the 80's exodus from the City - the area dropped in size by possibly half a million people  - its only recently started to rise again - those people ended up somewhere - granted half may have been evertonians but it was still a hell of a migration - given the nature of the City a great many were footy fans - there isn't anything comparable from another UK city I dont think.  Those economic migrants settled had families etc - it was not just 'success' that spread the support it was loyalty and inheritance as much as anything.

there's also still the question about who had the knowledge on the current board to make the decision - was it even a football decision?

[Mutton Geoff]

This Luddites Lament

I am getting to hate the game I have always loved, I hate the whole concept of we are a brand.  To me a club is a collective of owners, management, team, supporters who all need each other, however if we become a brand we then become customers who just want to be entertained rather than passionate supporters who have an affinity with the club. I see this more and more in Anfield.

I wanted to have the fans buying the club but I think Rogan queered that pitch by not getting together with SOS, but if we cannot have that I want owners who have some link with the club of the City and who understands our traditions and ethos, I am sick of these owners from over the pond driving a coach and horses through everything I hold dear about this club, how dare they!

I am sick of hacks creating the news with lies and innuendos, when we once had erudite writers writing wonderful prose about the game. I hate the need for 24/7 news and gossip sections there is even one in the BBC site. I hate corrupt owners bankrupting clubs and filling their own pockets, I hate mercenary players like Tevez coming back and being treated like a returning hero from a war, when he is really nothing more than a money grabbing whore in football boots!

I hate the inept FA and the corrupt FIFA with Platini et al, I hate four officials I even hate the new offside laws if you are on the pitch you are active simple as that!

This will be ironic I hate the people in forums who don’t know the difference between fact and opinion and the way they post replies but never read the posts they quote very well.

I long for the days sadly gone when the players played for the badge, when you had managers  like Shanks, Bob, Joe , Kenny and Ronnie filling in and I could get a decent cup of Bovril.

My only joy this weekend was Montpellier winning the French League having spent less on the team than PSG did on one player, it is nice to know a David can still slay some moneybags Goliath!

 So I am sorry but my mindset will remain in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s when we had four clear divisions 1-4, when winning cups mattered, so you will drag me into this modern world of these bean counters being more important than tactics and coaching, screaming my head off.

Or I will just ditch this Premiership game altogether and find a small non league club with the old ideals to watch in future rather than be thought of as a customer of this Liverpool FC brand!

 Or find a different sport to follow altogether.

[John C]

And I'll be damned if I can't mourn its passing and raise a glass to that world I grew up with.
You can have it both ways.

Love this post hinesy.

Its highly unlikely that a sponge-man will ever again become a European Cup winning manager. The smooth, indeed seamless transition from Shankly to Paisley to Fagan to Kenny is impossible to emulate.

I have to say that I often think those who sarcastically suggest football was invented in 1992 also seem to think Anfield was built in 1959.

Read Mark Platt's book.

[rusty-la]

One of the best OP's I have read on RAWK.  Possibly the best within the context of our current plight.. Good job Hendo, you tried to cross the divide, its not easy. Great post and a first class read.