Topic: Labour Thread

[Jiminy Cricket]

How true is what he says from someone with more of a clue than me? I used to find his pieces very interesting and agreed with most of them. Recently, I'm not so sure. But I'm not an expert in these things.

I have no understanding of Labour Party internal operations. But I have no trust in Owen Jones. Hopefully a trusted member of the Party will comment here about veracity of claims made by Jones in the article.

[filopastry]

Interesting to see Owen Jones describing Michael Crick as a "former Channel 4 stalwart" when maybe a more informative description would be "current Daily Mail employee"

I can't speak of other selections, but in our local ones the party had reasons they could have used to exclude the favourite (very much Momentum backed) from the process but didn't take it, and they narrowly won.

So now we have a PPC who is basically still living in New York 

[Robinred]

I have no understanding of Labour Party internal operations. But I have no trust in Owen Jones. Hopefully a trusted member of the Party will comment here about veracity of claims made by Jones in the article.

Owen Jones runs with the hare and the hounds - he’s really unsure where to pitch his tent.

We shouldn’t forget that the Guardian used to employ Seumus Milne. They’ve recently given a weekly slot to Adrian Chiles.

Little Owen likes to stir the pot, but has a very selective memory. He’s also politically naive if he doesn’t give any credence to the current Labour leadership’s clear strategy of neutering voices like his, which constantly rubbish everything they do or say.

[Yorkykopite]

How true is what he says from someone with more of a clue than me? I used to find his pieces very interesting and agreed with most of them. Recently, I'm not so sure. But I'm not an expert in these things.

It sounds worrying. But then again it is Owen Jones who isn't a fair-minded journalist.

My own party has had one selection conference since 1979 (!!), so I've no inside track on this. But here's another view. It's from Luke Akehurst who topped the poll for the NEC this year, and last. An incredibly scary man according to one shivering soul on RAWK, but a well-informed one too:

https://labourlist.org/2022/11/labour-selections-are-not-about-factional-advantage-but-getting-ready-for-power/
 

[ljycb]

It sounds worrying. But then again it is Owen Jones who isn't a fair-minded journalist.

My own party has had one selection conference since 1979 (!!), so I've no inside track on this. But here's another view. It's from Luke Akehurst who topped the poll for the NEC this year, and last. An incredibly scary man according to one shivering soul on RAWK, but a well-informed one too:

https://labourlist.org/2022/11/labour-selections-are-not-about-factional-advantage-but-getting-ready-for-power/

Yeah, there’s a point made in that Akehurst article which is exactly right, and it’s that you can’t have candidates who don’t broadly agree with the current general direction of the party. It’s a recipe for problems. I thought that when my guy was in charge so I can’t change my tune now.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/29/labour-leadership-internal-candidates-democracy-prospective-mps

Given the currently escalation I can see in my Social Feeds, which tends to start along the lines of ‘the right of the Labour Party’ to ‘right wingers’ to ‘Tories’ and then in some cases, ‘fascists’ - I thought it would be interesting to see how many times ‘The Labour Right’ ‘Right Wing’ (In relation to the Labour Party and Labour voters) ‘Tories’ (In relation to the Labour Party and Labour voters’ and ‘Far right’ (For the same came up..)

This was in just 2 and a bit pages.


stamfordman: The point is that the current Labour leader's only achievement is to break every pledge he made and to position the party to the right of the Tories on some issues. It doesn't augur well for change for the better, does it. We should also bear in mind Alexei Sayle's accurate in my experience comment about the Labour right.

Whatstheplanthen: What do we expect, the right of the Labour party never accepted Corbyn and hobbled him and the party during the 2017 general election.....The party has become a vehicle for closet Tory and the right wing political elite

derstar: The Labour leadership in Scotland have always been 'centrist/right/not left' and so have dominated Scottish politics for decades.

alexito: The left always buckles down because it knows that, in England, the Labour Party is the only hope for ordinary people. The Labour right are the ones who whine, micromanage and, in the not too distant past, split and hand power to Margaret Thatcher.

alexito: When Labour rightists say the left is unelectable, they're actively appeasing the right-wing media.

KrisFernie: So its time for Tories.2 and Starmer will for ever have to move to the right (even fascist, god help us) to satisfy the needs of The S*n or the Fail.

q321gg8cla: Blair going on national tv the pre vote night telling people not to vote Corbyn . The lies re a lot of stuff going on but no decency to admit the far right had a lot to do with some of the allegations going on . The list is endless as to the shannigans of what I call Right Wing Labour MPs.

grumpyranter: This sort of stuff has been going on for years I was deeply involved in the Labour Party and I was astonished by the behaviour of the ‘right ‘wing’ within the Labour Party. Pre Starmer they were more low key and devious but now they are more visible because they think no one cares or will sanction them [This one actually attempts to put the word in quotes to say what they mean]

stamfordman: The Labour right dominated the parliamentary party when Jeremy Corbyn became leader and tried their best to get rid of him and to lose elections...

q321gg8cla:  You missed the Labour rightwing war chest to block a Corbyn govt. until you have the decency to face up to the blatent disgusting behaviour of the right wing in labour ,you talk gobble de gook

stamfordman: It's not a definition really. But at the end of the day we either have principles as a supposedly democratic socialist party or we abandon them and let the right walk all over us and the people we care for.

makeinstall: If the right wing of the party werent working against him, Corbyn would have won. This tired old trope of "the looney left" is exactly that whereas the right wing of the Labour party need to wake up to the simple fact that they are far worse than the Tories.

gchill: It's (Labour) right wing, centre right at best at the moment.

makeinstall: At the next election, Starmer will not garner any support in Scotland. To continue with a FPTP system, Labour need to win them back but they wont with right wing policies.

robbo100: Oh yes, it's irrelevant when the targets are the left. Near media silence on it. But when it's the right alleging they're under unfair attack (from 'left wing bullies' etc.) it's front page news.

RedRedCheese: My challenge for 2023 to the Labour left is to stop engaging in good faith, with people who hate us and act entirely in bad faith. The Labour right has shown again and again that smashing the left is their core goal. Anything else will always come secondary to this. I don't fraternise willfully with paid up members of the Conservative party, but when the occasion has arisen I have generally found them to be far more genial and good humoured than the Labour right, who were, without question some of the most intellectually barren, thuggish, venal and downright unpleasant people I have ever had the misfortune to be compelled to spend time with.

peteinblack: The vicious campaign of lies and smears against Corbyn by the Pravda-like Mail, Express, Sun, Telegraph, and Times are what handed an 80+ parliamentary majority. Why can't you Right-wingers be honest for once?

robbo100: Unprecedented factional ruthlessness is going on, barely reported by the media. Such a contrast to when Corbyn was leader. The merest sniff of a centrist MP being deselected then and he or she would be all over the BBC and the front pages with their puppy dog eyes whilst bleating about Momentum and 'left wing bullies'. Oh yes, let's all be quiet now because we don't want to risk damaging Labour's election chances - not something that seemed to worry the Labour right when Corbyn was in power. Truth be known, stopping Labour from winning was their aim.

peteinblack: Did you object to the Blairites constantly sniping against Corbyn and attacking the Left, and thus boosting the Tories? You Right-wingers only preach loyalty and unity when you're running the Labour Party, but when it's the Left, you are totally disloyal and treacherous. What arrogance and hypocrisy. You really are more like the Tories that you realise; "Don't do as we do, do as we say."

formerlyprawn: These are RIGHT-WING policy proposals, made to pander to right-wing voters...... If they're 'gonna rule out anything to do with the EU...because the rightys dont like it, even though it damages our country' then you are not a centrist party...you ARE right-wing

formerlyprawn: Same was said in 2017...and the right-wing of the labour party chose ideological purity. Look where that got us. Now they're castigating us for following their example....well almost...we will not vote for the tories...there are other choices.





... which shows that it’s deliberate wording by some to convince the nation that the centre-left of the Labour Party are actually, in truth, centre-right/far right/tories/fascists in the political spectrum.

Perhaps something to bear in mind when posters write stuff. They, personally, might not be wanting to distort the truth, but this is where we have now ended up. It’s mentioned so often and so wifully and in such a way to distort the truth that it can’t be accidental. It’s fairly amusing that someone who is left-leaning is now accused routinely as being far to the right of the entire third Reich.

So there is an agenda. What is the goal of that agenda? Who does it serve? Is it fair enough to routinely accuse someone left leaning that wants a socialist party in power to reverse the damage that the actual right-wing in this country have caused?

Doesn't seem reasonable to me.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Doesn't seem reasonable to me.

Andy, havent you been through this before. Each group being assessed will have its own spectrum. I listen to a podacst with ex-Tory Rory Stewart who considered himself on the left of the Tory party. He doesn't consider himself on the left politically, just on the left of the Tories.

TLP will by definition have people on the right of its own spectrum. 

[Libertine]

You're always going to get these types of problems with two party systems and FPTP.

The two main parties have to be broad churches to encompass enough of the political spectrum to potentially gain 40+% of the vote. But then if they're too factional, it becomes impossible to govern effectively. So you get all of these internal fights for control.

A better system of course would be to enable a larger number of more coherent parties and allow them to compete openly and democratically for support (rather than behind closed doors with such nefarious methods). We can then see their relative levels of true support and they can govern accordingly.

[Nobby Reserve]

Andy, havent you been through this before. Each group being assessed will have its own spectrum. I listen to a podacst with ex-Tory Rory Stewart who considered himself on the left of the Tory party. He doesn't consider himself on the left politically, just on the left of the Tories.

TLP will by definition have people on the right of its own spectrum.

It's a simple concept, innit?

Funny how people on the right of the party ( ) have no problem with those on the left of the party being labelled so.

[Kenny's Jacket]

It's a simple concept, innit? ...2

Funny how people on the right of the party ( ) have no problem with those on the left of the party being labelled so.

Andy himself labelled me far left, Does that make me aligned with Ian Byrne or Chairman Mao.

[filopastry]

It's a simple concept, innit?

Funny how people on the right of the party ( ) have no problem with those on the left of the party being labelled so.

I think its because the right of a left of centre party isn't particularly "right"

In the same way that people will talk about the right wing of the Tories but I never usually hear centrist or one nation Tories being called left wing in everyday language, well apart from by the rivals on the right (And lets be honest now often far-right) in the party.

[oldfordie]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/29/labour-leadership-internal-candidates-democracy-prospective-mps

Given the currently escalation I can see in my Social Feeds, which tends to start along the lines of ‘the right of the Labour Party’ to ‘right wingers’ to ‘Tories’ and then in some cases, ‘fascists’ - I thought it would be interesting to see how many times ‘The Labour Right’ ‘Right Wing’ (In relation to the Labour Party and Labour voters) ‘Tories’ (In relation to the Labour Party and Labour voters’ and ‘Far right’ (For the same came up..)

This was in just 2 and a bit pages.


stamfordman: The point is that the current Labour leader's only achievement is to break every pledge he made and to position the party to the right of the Tories on some issues. It doesn't augur well for change for the better, does it. We should also bear in mind Alexei Sayle's accurate in my experience comment about the Labour right.

Whatstheplanthen: What do we expect, the right of the Labour party never accepted Corbyn and hobbled him and the party during the 2017 general election.....The party has become a vehicle for closet Tory and the right wing political elite

derstar: The Labour leadership in Scotland have always been 'centrist/right/not left' and so have dominated Scottish politics for decades.

alexito: The left always buckles down because it knows that, in England, the Labour Party is the only hope for ordinary people. The Labour right are the ones who whine, micromanage and, in the not too distant past, split and hand power to Margaret Thatcher.

alexito: When Labour rightists say the left is unelectable, they're actively appeasing the right-wing media.

KrisFernie: So its time for Tories.2 and Starmer will for ever have to move to the right (even fascist, god help us) to satisfy the needs of The S*n or the Fail.

q321gg8cla: Blair going on national tv the pre vote night telling people not to vote Corbyn . The lies re a lot of stuff going on but no decency to admit the far right had a lot to do with some of the allegations going on . The list is endless as to the shannigans of what I call Right Wing Labour MPs.

grumpyranter: This sort of stuff has been going on for years I was deeply involved in the Labour Party and I was astonished by the behaviour of the ‘right ‘wing’ within the Labour Party. Pre Starmer they were more low key and devious but now they are more visible because they think no one cares or will sanction them [This one actually attempts to put the word in quotes to say what they mean]

stamfordman: The Labour right dominated the parliamentary party when Jeremy Corbyn became leader and tried their best to get rid of him and to lose elections...

q321gg8cla:  You missed the Labour rightwing war chest to block a Corbyn govt. until you have the decency to face up to the blatent disgusting behaviour of the right wing in labour ,you talk gobble de gook

stamfordman: It's not a definition really. But at the end of the day we either have principles as a supposedly democratic socialist party or we abandon them and let the right walk all over us and the people we care for.

makeinstall: If the right wing of the party werent working against him, Corbyn would have won. This tired old trope of "the looney left" is exactly that whereas the right wing of the Labour party need to wake up to the simple fact that they are far worse than the Tories.

gchill: It's (Labour) right wing, centre right at best at the moment.

makeinstall: At the next election, Starmer will not garner any support in Scotland. To continue with a FPTP system, Labour need to win them back but they wont with right wing policies.

robbo100: Oh yes, it's irrelevant when the targets are the left. Near media silence on it. But when it's the right alleging they're under unfair attack (from 'left wing bullies' etc.) it's front page news.

RedRedCheese: My challenge for 2023 to the Labour left is to stop engaging in good faith, with people who hate us and act entirely in bad faith. The Labour right has shown again and again that smashing the left is their core goal. Anything else will always come secondary to this. I don't fraternise willfully with paid up members of the Conservative party, but when the occasion has arisen I have generally found them to be far more genial and good humoured than the Labour right, who were, without question some of the most intellectually barren, thuggish, venal and downright unpleasant people I have ever had the misfortune to be compelled to spend time with.

peteinblack: The vicious campaign of lies and smears against Corbyn by the Pravda-like Mail, Express, Sun, Telegraph, and Times are what handed an 80+ parliamentary majority. Why can't you Right-wingers be honest for once?

robbo100: Unprecedented factional ruthlessness is going on, barely reported by the media. Such a contrast to when Corbyn was leader. The merest sniff of a centrist MP being deselected then and he or she would be all over the BBC and the front pages with their puppy dog eyes whilst bleating about Momentum and 'left wing bullies'. Oh yes, let's all be quiet now because we don't want to risk damaging Labour's election chances - not something that seemed to worry the Labour right when Corbyn was in power. Truth be known, stopping Labour from winning was their aim.

peteinblack: Did you object to the Blairites constantly sniping against Corbyn and attacking the Left, and thus boosting the Tories? You Right-wingers only preach loyalty and unity when you're running the Labour Party, but when it's the Left, you are totally disloyal and treacherous. What arrogance and hypocrisy. You really are more like the Tories that you realise; "Don't do as we do, do as we say."

formerlyprawn: These are RIGHT-WING policy proposals, made to pander to right-wing voters...... If they're 'gonna rule out anything to do with the EU...because the rightys dont like it, even though it damages our country' then you are not a centrist party...you ARE right-wing

formerlyprawn: Same was said in 2017...and the right-wing of the labour party chose ideological purity. Look where that got us. Now they're castigating us for following their example....well almost...we will not vote for the tories...there are other choices.





... which shows that it’s deliberate wording by some to convince the nation that the centre-left of the Labour Party are actually, in truth, centre-right/far right/tories/fascists in the political spectrum.

Perhaps something to bear in mind when posters write stuff. They, personally, might not be wanting to distort the truth, but this is where we have now ended up. It’s mentioned so often and so wifully and in such a way to distort the truth that it can’t be accidental. It’s fairly amusing that someone who is left-leaning is now accused routinely as being far to the right of the entire third Reich.

So there is an agenda. What is the goal of that agenda? Who does it serve? Is it fair enough to routinely accuse someone left leaning that wants a socialist party in power to reverse the damage that the actual right-wing in this country have caused?

Doesn't seem reasonable to me.

I can accept the odd mention of the Right of the party but not Right Wing. they are using the whole political spectrum once they use the words Right wing,
Constantly referring to the center left as the right is a conscious decision, it's being used to attack the center left.
 Am not saying posters on here do this with the intention of attacking the center left, more likely been reading the Right description so often it's become part of the language they now use, that was the intention by the extreme left in the first place.
I noticed the increase last year and mentioned it on here.

Reply #23842 on: November 21, 2021, 01:30:22 pm »
Remove
One of the problems we have today is the way the extreme left have been allowed to redefine the Political spectrum.
The extreme left or hard left whatever you want to call it now class themselves as left wing, they class everyone else as right wing. they want to hijack the left wing banner.
The Labour party have 3 factions, the extreme/hard left which Corbyns Labour fall into. the left and the centre left.
There are plenty of left wingers who think Corbyns Labour are useless cranks, that doesn't make them right wing. plenty of left wingers think Starmers useless which is fine, the criticism is they believe he is useless not right wing.

[thaddeus]

I think its because the right of a left of centre party isn't particularly "right"

In the same way that people will talk about the right wing of the Tories but I never usually hear centrist or one nation Tories being called left wing in everyday language, well apart from by the rivals on the right (And lets be honest now often far-right) in the party.

Agreed.  During the centre-left Blair era I'm sure there were some relatively leftist Tories that would have fitted in - but those Tories certainly weren't remotely left wing they just overlapped slightly with the more centrist policies of Blair and Brown.  Similarly during the 'Big Society' and 'Hood-a-huggy' phase that Cameron went through with the Tories there were some relatively rightist Labour MPs that would have fitted in - but again not to say they were right wing.

Since 2016 but particularly since 2019 the Tories have largely vacated the centre so it's sensible for Starmer to broaden Labour's policies to take advantage of that gap.  The Tories always bang on about how they're a "broad church" but right now that label better fits Starmer's Labour.

It certainly needs some strong voices from the left within the Labour party to remind them that that encamping the centre ground (an undoubtedly good move electorally) doesn't mean they can't enact left-wing policies.  The recent mooted policy of removing charitable status from private schools suggests that's already the case.  Can anyone imagine a Tory part of any persuasion ever floating that idea?!

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Andy himself labelled me far left, Does that make me aligned with Ian Byrne or Chairman Mao.

It's a bit different because if you were labelled 'left' then you would agree. You might disagree with the definition of where you are, but you are intrinsically 'left'

Labelling people who are 'left' as 'right' is a nonsense, clearly.

That this nonsense is additionally being pushed as an actual agenda makes it even more nonsensical as you can see from the example above that it doesn't take much to go from 'right of the Labour Party' to suddenly actually right-wing (Which isn't true) or Tory (Which also isn't true) or far-right (which isn't true) or rightist (Which isn't true) or in one example actually fascist (which also isn't true)

[Kenny's Jacket]

It's a bit different because if you were labelled 'left' then you would agree. You might disagree with the definition of where you are, but you are intrinsically 'left'

Labelling people who are 'left' as 'right' is a nonsense, clearly.

That this nonsense is additionally being pushed as an actual agenda makes it even more nonsensical as you can see from the example above that it doesn't take much to go from 'right of the Labour Party' to suddenly actually right-wing (Which isn't true) or Tory (Which also isn't true) or far-right (which isn't true) or rightist (Which isn't true) or in one example actually fascist (which also isn't true)

My pain points here are
The post on RAWK that annoyed you referred to the right wing of the Labour party, not that parts of TLP were Right wing. There is nopthing wrong with that assertion IMO
Everyone puts these labels on people, you put one on me for example (thats not a criticism )

[Sangria]

It's a bit different because if you were labelled 'left' then you would agree. You might disagree with the definition of where you are, but you are intrinsically 'left'

Labelling people who are 'left' as 'right' is a nonsense, clearly.

That this nonsense is additionally being pushed as an actual agenda makes it even more nonsensical as you can see from the example above that it doesn't take much to go from 'right of the Labour Party' to suddenly actually right-wing (Which isn't true) or Tory (Which also isn't true) or far-right (which isn't true) or rightist (Which isn't true) or in one example actually fascist (which also isn't true)

And "left" does not encompass everything in the political discussion. Those who are economically "left" aren't always culturally "left". We on this site are probably something of a monolithic bloc, however much we manage to find differences nonetheless. There are many, according to yorky most of the working class, who are economically left but culturally conservative.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

And "left" does not encompass everything in the political discussion. Those who are economically "left" aren't always culturally "left". We on this site are probably something of a monolithic bloc, however much we manage to find differences nonetheless. There are many, according to yorky most of the working class, who are economically left but culturally conservative.

Very true. 'left and right' is a nonsense in itself.

When you look into it, there are loads of attributes that build a persons political reality

Ironically, I'm probably more left than quite a few people on here, but I think of myself as 'centre-left' because I think that people should work together to build a better country and planet.

[ianburns252]

Very true. 'left and right' is a nonsense in itself.

When you look into it, there are loads of attributes that build a persons political reality

Ironically, I'm probably more left than quite a few people on here, but I think of myself as 'centre-left' because I think that people should work together to build a better country and planet.

An interesting point here - could be that much of your positioning on the political spectrum is to do with how far "away" from yourself you would be prepared to go and still cooperate/be friends with/compromise with that person.

So not to do with the breadth of things but you'd say a centrist would work well with people a bit either side but not necessarily at the wings, someone far left might compromise with someone up to "half way" along the left half of the spectrum and so on.

You might hold beliefs that are themselves more to one side or another but your placing is such that you can tolerate things more to the other.

Not sure how well I've articulated that...

[PaulF]

Which wing Steve Heighway play on?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

An interesting point here - could be that much of your positioning on the political spectrum is to do with how far "away" from yourself you would be prepared to go and still cooperate/be friends with/compromise with that person.

So not to do with the breadth of things but you'd say a centrist would work well with people a bit either side but not necessarily at the wings, someone far left might compromise with someone up to "half way" along the left half of the spectrum and so on.

You might hold beliefs that are themselves more to one side or another but your placing is such that you can tolerate things more to the other.

Not sure how well I've articulated that...

I think you've put it very well.

Again, ironically, I'm not friends with some people I knew over Brexit and their revealed ideas about immigration, racism, bigotry and xenophobia, but I'm more tolerant of the idea of Politicians representing me to be open, honest and be able to work with those of differing political ideas.

To make a change, you have to be in power and often that involves pragmatism and realism to accomplish.

Those that are in their 'bubble' sometimes come across as wanting something that isn't immediately possible, but they want it 'right now' and of course in the real world that isn't actually possible without creating a totalitarian government.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Which wing Steve Heighway play on?

The.
According to the lyrics.

[Nobby Reserve]

And "left" does not encompass everything in the political discussion. Those who are economically "left" aren't always culturally "left". We on this site are probably something of a monolithic bloc, however much we manage to find differences nonetheless. There are many, according to yorky most of the working class, who are economically left but culturally conservative.

Even that 'cultural conservatism' is a complex and grey area. I've seen it referred to as socially liberal/conservative, too.

I know people who in many respects are socially liberal - support abortion rights, support much less stringent drug laws, most are in favour of equal rights and are anti-racism, have no issue with LGBT people, have a permissive approach to life and sex, etc. Yet they are generally nationalist, support Brexit, some whine about British culture being swamped by [mostly Muslim] foreigners and are anti-mass immigration.

Are they socially/culturally conservative?

 

[ianburns252]

This is the crux of it - we are naturally inclined to pigeon hole people/groups and try and make them fit neatly in a box.

The answer is that on some things these people are progressive, on some they are regressive/conservative and I would bet that most people fit that to a greater of lesser extent.

[Yorkykopite]

It's a simple concept, innit?

Funny how people on the right of the party ( ) have no problem with those on the left of the party being labelled so.

The left-right thing has been done to death. Is there anything more boring?

[Dr. Beaker]

It's not even a thing in the first place.

[So… Howard Philips]

The left-right thing has been done to death. Is there anything more boring?

The transfer thread?

[killer-heels]

The transfer thread?

Not tonight. Trent has been out on a date this evening with Jude and there are loads of pictures.

[Robinred]

Not tonight. Trent has been out on a date this evening with Jude and there are loads of pictures.

Date? What are you suggesting KH?😂

[TepidT2O]

John Ware won £90k (plays costs today) after his panorama programme was smeared….

[So… Howard Philips]

Not tonight. Trent has been out on a date this evening with Jude and there are loads of pictures.

Saw the picture of them together. Trent was smiling!

Both off to Madrid then? 

[Byrnee]

Well shall we get back on topic - yesterday's PMQs, thoughts on the Sunak - Starmer dynamic so far?

https://youtu.be/ZW_NnXup9lY

[Byrnee]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2022/nov/30/rishi-sunak-keir-starmer-pmqs-latest-live-news-uk-politics?filterKeyEvents=false&page=with:block-63874d448f08ec68b6015133#block-63874d448f08ec68b6015133

PMQs - Snap verdict

[PaulF]

Why are we hating on Adrian Chiles?

[So… Howard Philips]

Labour hold Chester with increased majority.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/dec/02/labour-easily-holds-city-of-chester-seat-in-first-byelection-test-for-sunak

[Red-Soldier]

These are the actions we need in order to transform this country - the question is, will Labour be brave enough to do it?

England’s water can be renationalised without compensation, activists say

Campaigners cite previous court rulings against shareholders, such as in the case of Northern Rock bank

Parliament could renationalise the water industry in England without being obliged to compensate shareholders, according to previous UK court judgments cited by campaigners.

Activists are putting mounting pressure on the government and opposition parties to look again at the privatised water system after criticism that the industry is not acting in the public interest.

The Guardian revealed this week that more than 70% of the privatised water industry is owned by foreign investment firms, private equity, pension funds and, in some cases, businesses based in tax havens.

The latest polling on nationalising energy and other key utilities, including water, shows the vast majority of the public are in favour and more than 200,000 people have signed a petition calling for water to be nationalised.

Supporters of nationalisation cite rulings from the high court, court of appeal and European court of human rights (ECHR) on shareholders’ general rights to compensation in a nationalisation.

The rulings were made in cases involving Northern Rock shareholders, who were paid zero compensation when the bank was taken into public ownership during the 2008 financial crisis.

The court of appeal ruled against the shareholders, saying: “The court would only interfere if it were to conclude that the state’s judgment as to what is in the public interest is manifestly without reasonable foundation.”

When the case was taken to the ECHR, the court ruled there was no general right to full market-value compensation. Judges said: “Legitimate objectives in the ‘public interest’, such as those pursued in measures of economic reform or measures designed to achieve greater social justice, may call for less than reimbursement of the full market value.”

Campaigners say the water industry should be renationalised after three decades in which the nine main water and sewerage companies have run up net debts of almost £54bn and paid out dividends of £65.9bn while overseeing a lack of investment.

The scandal of widespread and regular discharges of raw sewage into rivers and seas has shone a spotlight on whether companies have invested enough in repairing and replacing infrastructure.

The government recently ordered the industry to spend £56bn on stopping the millions of litres of raw sewage being discharged via storm overflows into rivers and seas, as pressure grows on politicians and the industry to clean up their act.

But Cat Hobbs, of the campaign group We Own It, said privatisation had failed since 1989 and it was time to take back control of the water infrastructure. “England’s privatised water companies treat our rivers and seas like a sewer and their customers (who have no choice) like an ATM,” she said.

“We, the public, should own them but we don’t, so they work for their shareholders around the world, not for us. That’s why our water bills prop up a profiteering racket instead of being invested to clean up the raw sewage in our rivers.

“That means buying back the assets because [Margaret] Thatcher sold them off wholesale but in return we’ll get assets. Bringing water into public ownership pays for itself in around six years.”

The court rulings are a key issue when estimating the cost to the public purse of taking the industry back into public control.

Estimates of the cost of renationalising the industry range from £14.7bn, estimated by the public services international research unit (PSIRU) at the University of Greenwich, to £90bn if company debts are included. The latter figure comes from the Social Market Foundation thinktank in research commissioned by United Utilities, Anglian Water, Severn Trent and South West Water.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/dec/02/water-renationalised-without-compensation-activists-shareholders-england

[Andy @ Allerton!]

These are the actions we need in order to transform this country - the question is, will Labour be brave enough to do it?

England’s water can be renationalised without compensation, activists say

Campaigners cite previous court rulings against shareholders, such as in the case of Northern Rock bank

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/dec/02/water-renationalised-without-compensation-activists-shareholders-england

Probably belongs in the Tory thread, but thanks for posting.

Utilities are obviously going to be better owned by Countries . Only c*nts could think otherwise. It's a shame that Politicians can't be tried as traitors and jailed for life.

How can they get away with the shit they do to actually betray their country?

[Red-Soldier]

Probably belongs in the Tory thread, but thanks for posting.

Utilities are obviously going to be better owned by Countries . Only c*nts could think otherwise. It's a shame that Politicians can't be tried as traitors and jailed for life.

How can they get away with the shit they do to actually betray their country?

Why does it belong in the Tory thread?  They certainly wont do anything to fix the current situation.  With Labour the favourites to win the next GE, they will likely have the opportunity to change it - it'll be interesting to see if they have the balls to do so.....

I don't think there has ever been a stronger case for renationalising our utilities, particularly water and energy.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Why does it belong in the Tory thread?  They certainly wont do anything to fix the current situation.  With Labour the favourites to win the next GE, they will likely have the opportunity to change it - it'll be interesting to see if they have the balls to do so.....

Good point.

But illustrates the huge amount of shite that Labour will get for everything caused by the Tories

Had an argument last night with a good mate blaming everything that's happening on Starmer.

It's actually unreal. He's a Corbyn guy but thinks that Labour have caused all the problems.

WTAF.

[PaulF]

Why does it belong in the Tory thread?  They certainly wont do anything to fix the current situation.  With Labour the favourites to win the next GE, they will likely have the opportunity to change it - it'll be interesting to see if they have the balls to do so.....

I don't think there has ever been a stronger case for renationalising our utilities, particularly water and energy.

The GB energy producer might well be a precursor to this.  If enough people see this being a good thing for their energy bills without the country exploding. They might be happier to elect a party that what's to repeat the trick or nationalise other sectors.

Trying to think along the normal argument lines.  The privatised water company allows them to invest money from 'investors' to improve the system. That's undeniably true. But ultimately that investment is paid back through higher water bills.  Surely better for the government to borrow the money and hit taxpayers for the investment.  And essentially deliver water for free.  The higher earning taxpayers (obvious exlusions apply ) , pay more for the investment.  Under the current system, multimillionaires don't use much more water (pools aside) than someone on benefits. Yet we all pay the higher water rates.
(Actually the pool probably does use LOTS of water).

Water and Fuel seem no brainers to me.  Trains , maybe coaches still seem good candidates for national ownership, though I'd want to spend more time looking it to it.  Broadband is another one .  It probably should be an 'essential' but because we've never had it nationalised, it feels wrong.  I don't see why having it split up is good for the consumers though.

[Dr. Beaker]

These are the actions we need in order to transform this country - the question is, will Labour be brave enough to do it?

England’s water can be renationalised without compensation, activists say

Campaigners cite previous court rulings against shareholders, such as in the case of Northern Rock bank

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/dec/02/water-renationalised-without-compensation-activists-shareholders-england

And it can all be packaged under, 'Taking Back Control'.