Topic: Do you support the strikes?

[west_london_red]

There’s some Olympic Gold medal level mental gymnastics going on these days. These are ‘Labours strikes’ caused by a party that’s been in opposition for 12 years. Apparently it’s completely subservient to the Trade Unions (even those that are not affiliated to it) but at the same time it also has the power to tell the Trade Unions (again, even those that are not affiliated to it) when to strike and when not to? Apparently the couple of quid a month I pay to the Labour Party via my Trade Union is somehow a corrupting influence on the Labour Party, but the millions paid to the Tories by Bankers, Hedge Funds and the friends and associates of Vladimir Putin - that money is above reproach, am I and millions of other public sector workers more morally contemptible then the despotic dictator of Russia? Because that’s actually what’s the Tories insinuate each time they criticise the Labour Party’s Trade Union funding.

[Kenny's Jacket]

RMT’s Mick Lynch absolutely destroyed Kay Burley on Sky this morning with calm and eloquent answers to her inane questions. Was actually a laugh out loud interview worth watching on YouTube. Then she went on twitter and said he was flustered. 😂

Hes been great on the TV better than anyone in the cabinet or shadow cabinet.

[Kenny's Jacket]

It can't be a surprise to anyone except Starmer that he's been doing everything he can to distance himself from the strikes and the press are still going after him anyway. Almost like he might as well have done the right thing instead.

Especially as some junior ministers have ignored him and gone on the picket line anyway

[Kenny's Jacket]

Isnt supplying agency workers illegal?

Excuse my ignorance.

[gazzalfc]

Isnt supplying agency workers illegal?

Excuse my ignorance.

It currently is. Tories are going to change the law so it isn't

So the thing the Tories hated about what P&O did they are going to legalise on the trains

[Kenny's Jacket]

It currently is. Tories are going to change the law so it isn't

So the thing the Tories hated about what P&O did they are going to legalise on the trains

Fucking scum.  Its legalised Dictatorship.

Edit,  If the ECHR can halt Rwanda flights, cant they do something here?

[west_london_red]

It currently is. Tories are going to change the law so it isn't

So the thing the Tories hated about what P&O did they are going to legalise on the trains

It’s just bluster. You need to be licensed to work on the railway, my employer is constantly encouraging white collar railway workers like myself to get licensed so we can backfill our operational colleague when there are strikes but uptake has always been low fortunately other then the odd arse licker. And that’s just for station staff, when you get into the maintenance side of things it’s pretty much impossible to get someone else to do the work, you need to be knowledgeable on whatever you work on be it track, signalling or rolling stock, there isn’t a magic pool of qualified agency staff sitting somewhere ready to go.

[Red-Soldier]

It’s just bluster. You need to be licensed to work on the railway, my employer is constantly encouraging white collar railway workers like myself to get licensed so we can backfill our operational colleague when there are strikes but uptake has always been low fortunately other then the odd arse licker. And that’s just for station staff, when you get into the maintenance side of things it’s pretty much impossible to get someone else to do the work, you need to be knowledgeable on whatever you work on be it track, signalling or rolling stock, there isn’t a magic pool of qualified agency staff sitting somewhere ready to go.

Exactly.

A bit like them saying agency staff will cover all the other professions when they strike too! It's total rubbish.

[Rob Dylan]

I'm finding the BBC coverage of the strike really over the top and one-sided. Multiple stories about how disruptive it is and endless interviews with members of the public about how they can't get to where they want to. Just seen a report on BBC Breakfast where the reporter was talking like there had been some kind of terrible tragedy where people had died. No-one talking about the other side, the reasons for the strike and what the government is doing.

[KillieRed]

This surprises you?

[west_london_red]

Exactly.

A bit like them saying agency staff will cover all the other professions when they strike too! It's total rubbish.

And god forbid they do get in some under qualified agency bod and there’s any kind of emergency or maintenance isn’t carried out effectively, that could be absolutely catastrophic.

[Red_Mist]

Sorry no .The more I look at the interview the more I think it's a car crash interview by Flynn.
 "Picketing is about encouraging people who want to go to work not to go to work."
If that was a answer in a exam he would get 5/10.
Picketing is about explaining what the dispute is about and asking for their support by persuading them to support the strike by not crossing the picket line.
Your not just encouraging them not to cross the picket line your convincing them to back the strike, you've convinced them strike action is justified.

I think he got frustrated as he could visualise why Burley was wrong but he couldn't put it into words which is poor.  he looked around and pointed at the pickets as if it proved he was right but he couldn't put it into words, I looked at it and thought the few people standing on todays picket line shows the Union have no intention of physically trying to stop anyone crossing the picket line, if that was the intention then you would have seen hundreds of Strikers standing here today..

Fair enough mate, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Burley’s normally good but I think she got annoyed thinking he was taking the piss and maybe realising she’d asked a daft question. Perhaps he could’ve explained it better, i do take your point on that; but it reminded me of the scene in The Meaning of Life when Michael Palin, as hospital Administrator, walks into the delivery room and says, “and what are you doing this morning?” Graham Chapman (Lynch) replies, “it’s a birth” and Palin (Burley) goes, “and what sort of a thing is that?”

At that point Lynch looks bemused/amused (maybe because he’s already had multiple Richard Madeleys to deal with) and points at the picket line.

Your point is you wanted Lynch to do a  John Cleese and say, “that’s when we take a baby out of a lady’s tummy”. Perhaps you’re right and he should’ve explained for the benefit of anyone at home who didn’t know what a picket line is. Maybe he’d already done that, no idea…I didn’t see the whole interview, just that short clip on Burley’s Twitter.

[Fromola]

Lynch is great, he's running rings around the inept Tories and their toadying media.

[Wild Romany Boy]

Fair enough mate, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Burley’s normally good but I think she got annoyed thinking he was taking the piss and maybe realising she’d asked a daft question. Perhaps he could’ve explained it better, i do take your point on that; but it reminded me of the scene in The Meaning of Life when Michael Palin, as hospital Administrator, walks into the delivery room and says, “and what are you doing this morning?” Graham Chapman (Flynn) replies, “it’s a birth” and Palin (Burley) goes, “and what sort of a thing is that?”

At that point Flynn looks bemused/amused (maybe because he’s already had multiple Richard Madeleys to deal with) and points at the picket line.

Your point is you wanted Flynn to do a John Cleese and say, “that’s when we take a baby out of a lady’s tummy”. Perhaps you’re right and he should’ve explained for the benefit of anyone at home who didn’t know what a picket line is. Maybe he’d already done that, no idea…I didn’t see the whole interview, just that short clip on Burley’s Twitter.

My impression of the interview was the same of yours and I saw the whole thing.

Lynch is media trained but seems not to want a media career. That means he doesn't have to give stock answers to be invited back, and that has shown up every interviewer who has tried to nobble him in this dispute. I hope it works.

[Jshooters]

Lynch is great, he's running rings around the inept Tories and their toadying media.

This is great, calling out some backbencher for just learning off a script

https://bit.ly/3NaaIzG

[PaulF]

Loss of ticket offices and their staff seems to be a key point . How long would the unions want to keep them? I'm conflicted as certain portions of society struggle with the ticket machines, but I'm not sure they need a dedicated space and perhaps two full time employees to provide assistance.
I figure driver only operated trains are a similar issue, but until we are comfortable with self driving cars then I suspect the average customer would want guards in trains.
Machines for track maintenance also. Are they as good as staff or not?

On a side note. Are passengers customers or clients?

[PaulF]

I'm on a roll...
Anyone know why they talk median salary. I'd have thought mode was a better metric. Maybe not by much so not a big issue .

And why do unions always strike over pay + something? I'm thinking it looks better in the media and more importantly it gives more room for negotiation on both sides. If they come away with a smaller pay rise + no job cuts , the union can say they saved the jobs and employer can say they managed wage restraint. Might be more complex than that?  Bit like Salah wanting a four year deal . ..

[gazzalfc]

I'm on a roll...
Anyone know why they talk median salary. I'd have thought mode was a better metric. Maybe not by much so not a big issue .

And why do unions always strike over pay + something? I'm thinking it looks better in the media and more importantly it gives more room for negotiation on both sides. If they come away with a smaller pay rise + no job cuts , the union can say they saved the jobs and employer can say they managed wage restraint. Might be more complex than that?  Bit like Salah wanting a four year deal . ..

Median values are believed to give a fairer statistical view at the 'spread' of salaries. Average and Mode salaries can be skewed by a number of factors (workers on the same employment band can be paid differently for people within the same band)

As for striking over Pay + conditions over just pay? You're right in terms of optics and how its seen from the outside. But just as important is how it is for workers (union members). I can only speak to my time voting under collective bargaining pay negotiations with my employers. But there has never been the appetite to go for industrial action over just pay. I have been through 6 different pay negotiations and we have only ever gone as high as the stage just before balloting for industrial action before accepting a pay offer. Whilst it is usually the stage where we get the best pay offer, it has always been a below inflation pay rise (therefore a pay cut) so you would assume that any vote would lean towards industrial action. But it never does.

But if they come after our contracts, pensions, working conditions then the room would be very different.

[oldfordie]

Fair enough mate, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Burley’s normally good but I think she got annoyed thinking he was taking the piss and maybe realising she’d asked a daft question. Perhaps he could’ve explained it better, i do take your point on that; but it reminded me of the scene in The Meaning of Life when Michael Palin, as hospital Administrator, walks into the delivery room and says, “and what are you doing this morning?” Graham Chapman (Flynn) replies, “it’s a birth” and Palin (Burley) goes, “and what sort of a thing is that?”

At that point Flynn looks bemused/amused (maybe because he’s already had multiple Richard Madeleys to deal with) and points at the picket line.

Your point is you wanted Flynn to do a John Cleese and say, “that’s when we take a baby out of a lady’s tummy”. Perhaps you’re right and he should’ve explained for the benefit of anyone at home who didn’t know what a picket line is. Maybe he’d already done that, no idea…I didn’t see the whole interview, just that short clip on Burley’s Twitter.

Thanks, Yeah that's fine. agree to disagree. I think your right about Lynch winding her up with those few words about her not knowing what pickets are for but I don't think Burleys question about the possibility of trouble was unfair or a stupid question. that's the image many people still have of pickets and they would have been wondering if these pickets are going to turn nasty, his answer really should have been about wining over their support, I don't think he did.
 Arguing Encouraging people who want to work not to work doesn't even sound like a decent thing to do. your not even justifying why your trying to encourage those people who want to work not to work, arguing we are explaining to people what the strike is about and asking for their support is actually what they will be doing so why not just say it.
 I wouldn't mind but it all could of been averted if Lynch had just pointed at the number of people standing on the picket line and telling her we would be out here with hundreds of people if the intention was trouble.. I think Burley would have backed off and accepted a answer like that so would the millions sat at home.

[AndyMuller]

Lynch has been boss.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Just in case I am missing something: when at least two posters to this thread refer to 'Flynn', they do actually mean 'Lynch', right?

[oldfordie]

Just in case I am missing something: when at least two posters to this thread refer to 'Flynn', they do actually mean 'Lynch', right?

Yeah, Lynch. thanks Jiminy amended post

[thaddeus]

This is great, calling out some backbencher for just learning off a script

https://bit.ly/3NaaIzG

Jonathan Gullis is a horrible man.  The sooner politics rids itself of his ilk the better.  The bit at the end where Gullis got wound up and started chuntering about "veterans" is a measure of the man.

I've been an advocate of Starmer's vanilla politics as it was pragmatically the best way to get elected but the more I see the Tories doubling down with their nonsense the more I think Labour should come out all guns blazing on this issue.

Stop trying to appeal to "little c conservatives", let Lib Dems be the anti-Tory protest vote in the Home Counties, make it clear that they support any and all workers striving for a fair deal, and go after the appalling economic record of this government.  Starmer can instruct his whips to let MPs know that Labour will adopt a strong position on this if the left of the party get behind him and stay behind him until after the next election.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Yeah, Lynch. thanks Jiminy amended post

FYI: you used 'Flynn' in all your posts to this thread since the post linking to Burley's tweet.

[Nobby Reserve]

Have I Got News For You
@haveigotnews
Union leaders ‘using all the tricks in the book to confuse, obfuscate and mislead’ the public, says Grant Shapps/Michael Green/Corinne Stockheath/Sebastian Fox.

https://twitter.com/haveigotnews/status/1539214905013837824

[oldfordie]

FYI: you used 'Flynn' in all your posts to this thread since the post linking to Burley's tweet.

Ive no idea how that started ,thanks.

[Jiminy Cricket]

:)Ive no idea how that started ,thanks.

Well, it appears to be infectious, because Red_Mist used 'Flynn' too!

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=352694.msg18394087#msg18394087

At first, I assumed you had a brain-fart, but when RM used Flynn too, I began to wonder if Flynn was indeed someone else, so I had to ask.

[PaulF]

Well, it appears to be infectious, because Red_Mist used 'Flynn' too!

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=352694.msg18394087#msg18394087

At first, I assumed you had a brain-fart, but when RM used Flynn too, I began to wonder if Flynn was indeed someone else, so I had to ask.

All Trots are the same

[oldfordie]

Well, it appears to be infectious, because Red_Mist used 'Flynn' too!

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=352694.msg18394087#msg18394087

At first, I assumed you had a brain-fart, but when RM used Flynn too, I began to wonder if Flynn was indeed someone else, so I had to ask.

Sounds like Red Mist caught the infection off me.

[Scottymuser]

I'm on a roll...
Anyone know why they talk median salary. I'd have thought mode was a better metric. Maybe not by much so not a big issue .

And why do unions always strike over pay + something? I'm thinking it looks better in the media and more importantly it gives more room for negotiation on both sides. If they come away with a smaller pay rise + no job cuts , the union can say they saved the jobs and employer can say they managed wage restraint. Might be more complex than that?  Bit like Salah wanting a four year deal . ..

From a mathematical point of view, mode doesn;t really tell you anything useful at all, when used against continuous variables.

In this situation, let's say you have a population of 1000 employees, at a company which mainly hires at "minimum wage" but then after, say. 6-12 months dependent on performance adjusts upwards (with a possibility of freezing wages if on displicinary).  And a 10% attrition rate.

This means that 10% of the workforce is at minimum wage; but ALL 10% of them are on the same wage.  Then the 10% of people who started a year ago - all of them got slightly different wage increases, so <100 of them are on the same wage (and a non-zero number may stay at the same minimum wage due to disciplinary).  This then propogates.  So, there is almost ALWAYS going to be a situation where the mode of this population is at the MINIMUM WAGE - but that the MAJORITY (in this case 85%+) of people are on more than that.  Reporting on the mode, instead of the mean/median (Median is better than mean as mean is more skewed by extremes) would only therefore give you informaiton on what the minimum wage is. 

[Red_Mist]

Well, it appears to be infectious, because Red_Mist used 'Flynn' too!

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=352694.msg18394087#msg18394087

At first, I assumed you had a brain-fart, but when RM used Flynn too, I began to wonder if Flynn was indeed someone else, so I had to ask.

Haha! Fucks knows what happened there. I’d like to say some weird autocorrect but I think just my own stupidity!

[Scottymuser]

/
And how would you feel if the Starmer blocked his front bench from showing solidarity with a Teachers strike ?

Why is the only way of showing "solidarity" with striking workers physically going to a picket line to stand on it with the striking workers?  There should be a vast array of ways of showing solidarity, and it seems reductionist to say, effectively "if you don't come to the picket line, you aren't showing solidarity with us" which is how a lot of people seem to be negatively portraying Starmer's memo.

Equally, yesterday was Opposition Day - one 20 available in this 12 month session - surely a better use of the MPs (ESPECIALLY FRONT BENCHERS - which is the ONLY GROUP of MPs Starmer was asking to not going to the picket line) time was going to do *their job* - and actually go to Parliament to try and make a difference, quesiton the PM and his bunch of lackeys in the Cabinet, and stand up for the working people on topics such as the NHS, Armed Forces Pensions, etc that were all debated yesterday because the Labour Party had their OD.  Rather than, mostly for a publicity shot, physically going to a picket line for a photo op?

[Red_Mist]

A round up of Mick Lynch (Flynn to his mates!) giving it to journos and politicians…

https://twitter.com/docrussjackson/status/1539343975236116480?s=21&t=RfwZI95XP3mYvbnb9gmbOQ

The ‘liar’ one is particularly brilliant!

[gazzalfc]

TSSA have managed to get Merseyrail workers 7.1% (which was the RPI inflation in November 2021).

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/merseyrail-staff-vote-accept-71-24291585

That is really going to piss the Tories off because that is now the minimum acceptable bar for any other rail trade union in the country

[Jshooters]

A round up of Mick Lynch (Flynn to his mates!) giving it to journos and politicians…

https://twitter.com/docrussjackson/status/1539343975236116480?s=21&t=RfwZI95XP3mYvbnb9gmbOQ

The ‘liar’ one is particularly brilliant!

It is.  I'd just come on to post the Piers Moron cringefest

https://bit.ly/3OfzqQj

[Kenny's Jacket]

Why is the only way of showing "solidarity" with striking workers physically going to a picket line to stand on it with the striking workers?  There should be a vast array of ways of showing solidarity, and it seems reductionist to say, effectively "if you don't come to the picket line, you aren't showing solidarity with us" which is how a lot of people seem to be negatively portraying Starmer's memo.

Equally, yesterday was Opposition Day - one 20 available in this 12 month session - surely a better use of the MPs (ESPECIALLY FRONT BENCHERS - which is the ONLY GROUP of MPs Starmer was asking to not going to the picket line) time was going to do *their job* - and actually go to Parliament to try and make a difference, quesiton the PM and his bunch of lackeys in the Cabinet, and stand up for the working people on topics such as the NHS, Armed Forces Pensions, etc that were all debated yesterday because the Labour Party had their OD.  Rather than, mostly for a publicity shot, physically going to a picket line for a photo op?

its not though. Its his directive that They should not go. its different. I cant arsed to interpret the rest of your drivel in the 2nd paragraph , so wont respond to it.

[oldfordie]

A round up of Mick Lynch (Flynn to his mates!) giving it to journos and politicians…

https://twitter.com/docrussjackson/status/1539343975236116480?s=21&t=RfwZI95XP3mYvbnb9gmbOQ

The ‘liar’ one is particularly brilliant!

   The mystery is solved. must have got it off one of his M8s

[AndyMuller]

It is.  I'd just come on to post the Piers Moron cringefest

https://bit.ly/3OfzqQj

Haha that is absolutely pathetic by that gobshite Moron.

[Nobby Reserve]

This is great as well from Jemma Forte:

https://twitter.com/joepagnelli/status/1539305903408971776

[killer-heels]

Just a reminder of who Ken Clarke is (seems it was forgotten during Brexit).

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ken-clarke-says-uk-recession-27293793.amp