Topic: The Men in Suits behind the scenes

[royhendo]

Haha what's this about?

Nowt really. Just having a laugh.

[Dave McCoy]

I guess if you've got Klopp fielding texts from people wanting to play for him, it's a deal maker in the David Dein mould that you need first and foremost. We've already departed from the front line data-driven squad building haven't we?

Who knows? Diaz and Nunez are both data savvy if you believe in Liga Nos being good. Probably the bigger issue is the internal data on aging players and who we re-sign and why. We scout ourself even more than we do transfers.

[AmanShah21]

I think the reason maybe much more mundane. When our analytics department was setup, football analytics in general was still not uncovered so much, so there was plenty to excite them where we could discover metrics or models to give us the advantage. Now the market is saturated and the advantage is gone as more clubs have access to same information. Companies like statsbomb etc. Who have a larger workforce solely dedicated to analytics can provide the same or potentially more useful information and models at less cost which can make someone of Dr.Graham's calibre feel redundancy in his position in the near future.
This is where it is now chance to seek where the new advantage may be. Our transfer market advantage has been reducing not because of FSG or anything, but simply because the other clubs have caught up and it was always going to happen anyway. It was the same with Beane's moneyball strategy. One of the things in the past 3-4 years where we havent spent so much in senior transfers is the money spent on prodigious youth players and we have again done extraordinarily there under the radar. That investment will bear fruit in the next 5-6 years but not immediately though and in order to hold onto them, we'll need the team to continue to be successful, which begs the idea of needing someone who is used to handling that kind of transition and can plan the squad for that period.
I dont think this is a step backward, but possibly an opportunity. We have been slow and bad at selling older players of late, there is no doubt. That is where we need someone capable of handling the outs more efficiently.

[groove]

I think the reason maybe much more mundane. When our analytics department was setup, football analytics in general was still not uncovered so much, so there was plenty to excite them where we could discover metrics or models to give us the advantage. Now the market is saturated and the advantage is gone as more clubs have access to same information. Companies like statsbomb etc. Who have a larger workforce solely dedicated to analytics can provide the same or potentially more useful information and models at less cost which can make someone of Dr.Graham's calibre feel redundancy in his position in the near future.
This is where it is now chance to seek where the new advantage may be. Our transfer market advantage has been reducing not because of FSG or anything, but simply because the other clubs have caught up and it was always going to happen anyway. It was the same with Beane's moneyball strategy. One of the things in the past 3-4 years where we havent spent so much in senior transfers is the money spent on prodigious youth players and we have again done extraordinarily there under the radar. That investment will bear fruit in the next 5-6 years but not immediately though and in order to hold onto them, we'll need the team to continue to be successful, which begs the idea of needing someone who is used to handling that kind of transition and can plan the squad for that period.
I dont think this is a step backward, but possibly an opportunity. We have been slow and bad at selling older players of late, there is no doubt. That is where we need someone capable of handling the outs more efficiently.

I'm not sure this is true. I still see United as 5 years behind us. It's not that long ago they were insisting that "non-footballing people" weren't making "footballing decisions" in the club. As far as I know, they still do the vast majority of talent identification via scouting. They still have 70+ scouts on their payroll compared to Liverpool hiring less than 10. Football is way more conservative when it comes to adapting to new ideas than American sports. I think there are a few things behind this: 1. Hyper-competitive, adapt-or-die type mentality. 2. American sports are more statistical in nature and they are much more willing to be looking for edges in numbers. 3. In Baseball, in particular, the Moneyball thing was such a stand-out, obviously superior way of doing things that it couldn't be ignored.

Look at the rise of Brighton and Brentford. I don't really see other mid-lower league tables, or Championship teams pushing an analytics-first mentality as hard as these two have and they're still reaping the rewards. You really can't underestimate the stupidity in management structures in the vast majority of clubs, even Premier League ones.

[Slippers]

Ah good, we needed something to moan about with the World Cup going on.

This will be a nice distraction.

[Dave McCoy]

Yeah, this isn't how this is supposed to work. Would kind of explain our move to a 4-4-2 and just generally not knowing what we were if we're just recruiting on a whim. Nunez has been great but he also had almost no relation to our current forwards and how they all worked in the system.

[newterp]

So... this is not an issue?

Or is this a huge issue?

I've been a bit out of it if late.

[killer-heels]

Yeah, this isn't how this is supposed to work. Would kind of explain our move to a 4-4-2 and just generally not knowing what we were if we're just recruiting on a whim. Nunez has been great but he also had almost no relation to our current forwards and how they all worked in the system.

Our signings in the past year have been Diaz, Konate and Nunez. Dont know who wanted whom, but if it was Klopp then I would say that he knows a player when he sees one.

[JackWard33]

Our signings in the past year have been Diaz, Konate and Nunez. Dont know who wanted whom, but if it was Klopp then I would say that he knows a player when he sees one.

Last window we missed our main midfield target in May … then told the world we didn’t need anyone for months… then panicked in the last two weeks… approached several players with days left to go and ended up with someone who allegedly exists called Melo.
I used to believe Klopps public comments about transfers were all show but this summer our actions almost exactly matched to his changing sentiments and it was a shit show

The manager can’t be in charge of recruitment at an elite club in 2022 - it’s a disastrous idea - even if they’re the best coach on the planet

[Sinyoro]

Klopp has come out recently regretting not signing Son and I get the feeling that he does not want that to happen again with players that he really wants in his team.

If the data analysts are getting in the way, then there is only going to be one winner

[killer-heels]

Last window we missed our main midfield target in May … then told the world we didn’t need anyone for months… then panicked in the last two weeks… approached several players with days left to go and ended up with someone who allegedly exists called Melo.
I used to believe Klopps public comments about transfers were all show but this summer our actions almost exactly matched to his changing sentiments and it was a shit show

The manager can’t be in charge of recruitment at an elite club in 2022 - it’s a disastrous idea - even if they’re the best coach on the planet

I agree that overall it was a shit show how this summer went. A complete disaster and we paid for it big time. But in terms of talent identification, it hasnt been a problem.

[killer-heels]

Klopp has come out recently regretting not signing Son and I get the feeling that he does not want that to happen again with players that he really wants in his team.

If the data analysts are getting in the way, then there is only going to be one winner

When would that have happened? Son is now really showing his age.

[Sinyoro]

When would that have happened? Son is now really showing his age.

At Dortmund

[Dave McCoy]

Our signings in the past year have been Diaz, Konate and Nunez. Dont know who wanted whom, but if it was Klopp then I would say that he knows a player when he sees one.

It gets beyond whether they're a good player or not. The DoF is supposed to merge what the managers needs are, what the club envisions the play style to be and how that all fits short and long term as far as player personnel. A lot of our issues is due to injury or suspension we seemed to be a box of mismatched toys that Klopp was trying to tape together into a coherent system from one game to the next. We probably still are player for player the 2nd best team in the league but as a whole we are falling short. That's what this is about. The manager can only see what's in front of him, not how it all fits together or worse we end up like ManU where we go from manager to manager and have to redo the squad each time.

[harleydanger]

Allison, Virgil, Darwin. I think it’s time, as a fan base, we accept the fact that Klopp just wants to be surrounded by a bunch of tall good looking men all day and bases all footballing decisions on that.

Jurgen, much like that of a 24yo woman who can’t hold together a relationship, when confronted by logic and sober observations of friends, has an inner monologue of “I can change him”

[ScouserAtHeart]

If Klopp having a greater say in transfers is true, the only worry I have is he's only here for three more seasons after this one (as of now). The transition is always easier when the general direction of the club and the transfers are handled by a sporting director

[Ghost Town]

It’s all gone a bit Two Ronnies in here.

I believe one of them's available now, having just left his club

Maybe we will play Four - Four - Candles

[jckliew]

Ward today. Gone tomorrow.

[Knight]

If Klopp having a greater say in transfers is true, the only worry I have is he's only here for three more seasons after this one (as of now). The transition is always easier when the general direction of the club and the transfers are handled by a sporting director

In no way should that be the only worry you have given our success when responsibility was divvied out between various people. And if Klopp's public comments during the summer actually represented out transfer thinking (because he was calling the shots), then we've got serious issues because his comments were all over the shop. At the time I assumed he was managing the situation whilst behind the scenes we were furiously working to try and sort the midfield. But maybe the decision makers genuinely though we didn't need a midfielder in the summer because 'we have 9' or whatever Klopp was saying at one point.

That said, if Klopp chose Nunez and Diaz I think we can say that he can spot a forward when he sees one!

[JordanTremenderson]

It's very scary times.

Lots of change, uncertainty and who knows what happens in the future.

But many people wanted change.  The wanted rid of FSG, so they have got their wish and can't moan now when the highly successful analytical nerds are leaving as they were part of FSGs plan.  They have been a huge part of our success.

Well done FSG Out critics, you have brought huge chaos and uncertain times to the club.

You wanted this, so don't moan now.

[Knight]

Yeah I think you're totally right. A few guys on this forum and a bunch of folk on Twitter have brought huge chaos and uncertain times to the club. Their complaints have forced FSG into selling and FSG selling accounts for this personnel flux and it's all awful because people questioned whether FSG should buy another player or too. Really people, you need to be much more careful on the internet. Shame on you.

[JordanTremenderson]

Yeah I think you're totally right. A few guys on this forum and a bunch of folk on Twitter have brought huge chaos and uncertain times to the club. Their complaints have forced FSG into selling and FSG selling accounts for this personnel flux and it's all awful because people questioned whether FSG should buy another player or too. Really people, you need to be much more careful on the internet. Shame on you.

"A few guys"

Half the fans base, constant abuse / criticism aimed at FSG over 10 years.  Being ungrateful even when we have been hugely successful.

Yes a large percentage of our fans wanted this.

Well they got their wish!

[Gerry Attrick]

"A few guys"

Half the fans base, constant abuse / criticism aimed at FSG over 10 years.  Being ungrateful even when we have been hugely successful.

Yes a large percentage of our fans wanted this.

Well they got their wish!

That’s a lot of power that is. To be the determining factor instead of them not fancying financing a large rebuild, a terrible UK economy and a plateauing of television rights etc. I feel true shame that they will only receive a Humungous return on their investment.

[DelTrotter]

It's very scary times.

Lots of change, uncertainty and who knows what happens in the future.

But many people wanted change.  The wanted rid of FSG, so they have got their wish and can't moan now when the highly successful analytical nerds are leaving as they were part of FSGs plan.  They have been a huge part of our success.

Well done FSG Out critics, you have brought huge chaos and uncertain times to the club.

You wanted this, so don't moan now.

  Edwards handed his notice in a year ago, Graham in the summer, not really looking like it's takeover related is it? Ward who knows but likely for the same reason Edwards and Graham are off.

And I can't believe this needs adding but a few people saying FSG out or whatever hasn't made them leave the club.

[El Lobo]

It's very scary times.

Lots of change, uncertainty and who knows what happens in the future.

But many people wanted change.  The wanted rid of FSG, so they have got their wish and can't moan now when the highly successful analytical nerds are leaving as they were part of FSGs plan.  They have been a huge part of our success.

Well done FSG Out critics, you have brought huge chaos and uncertain times to the club.

You wanted this, so don't moan now.

[JordanTremenderson]

but a few people saying FSG out or whatever hasn't made them leave the club.

You're deluded if you think it has been a few people.

Half our fansbase have been slagging them off for years & wanted change.

Don't moan now when change is happening.

It might work out for the better, no one knows.

But it could be a disaster.  But many welcomed this change.

Do I think the criticism FSG got from our fans over many years has made them consider to sell?  Yes, no, maybe - I don't know, no one does.

Do I think FSG feel appreciated as owner?  Absolutely not and it's not going to make them want to stay (which I think is disappointing, others who want change don't)

I think our fans have treated FSG disgracefully over the years and the ones who have constantly craved changed & them out of the club can't moan now when the nerds they hired are leaving too.

It's uncertain times and many fans craved this, I certainly didn't as I have been extremely pro FSG.  But hey when we're rubbish again and the stability we have / the success we've had etc is appreciated more, then those FSG critics will be quiet.

Let's hope the change has a positive effect on the club.  But I think it is very concerning and I hate a large percentage of our fans.  They're ungrateful, spoilt, have no morals and only care how much we spend, not how well we spend it.

Let's see what happens, but anyone who has criticised FSG and wanted them gone, shouldn't be moaning - they wanted this!

[DelTrotter]

You're deluded if you think it has been a few people.

Half our fansbase have been slagging them off for years & wanted change.

What's your research, proof for this? How come there's been no protests on match day to get them out if "half our fanbase has wanted them gone for years"?

[Eeyore]

"A few guys"

Half the fans base, constant abuse / criticism aimed at FSG over 10 years.  Being ungrateful even when we have been hugely successful.

Yes a large percentage of our fans wanted this.

Well they got their wish!

I feel guilty if only I had spoken up earlier.

[JordanTremenderson]

What's your research, proof for this? How come there's been no protests on match day to get them out if "half our fanbase has wanted them gone for years"?

Have you been living with your head in the sand for 10 years? 

Jesus christ! 

[DelTrotter]

Have you been living with your head in the sand for 10 years? 

Jesus christ! 

So it was nonsense then? Thought so.

[JordanTremenderson]

So it was nonsense then? Thought so.

You don't think a huge percentage of our fanbase haven't been wanting FSG Out?  Haven't been sending them constant abuse?  Haven't craved new ownership and change?  Have criticised the way they operate?

Sorry but you're clueless then.

[El Lobo]

You don't think a huge percentage of our fanbase haven't been wanting FSG Out?  Haven't been sending them constant abuse?  Haven't craved new ownership and change?  Have criticised the way they operate?

Sorry but you're clueless then.

[DelTrotter]

You don't think a huge percentage of our fanbase haven't been wanting FSG Out?  Haven't been sending them constant abuse?  Haven't craved new ownership and change?  Have criticised the way they operate?

Sorry but you're clueless then.

So where's all the protests and FSG abuse at the match then? If half our fanbase want them out (your words) and hate them so much as you've claimed where are all the protests?

Your problem seems to be you see a few anti FSG posts on social media and have somehow labelled that as "half our fanbase sending them abuse"

And another thing, criticising some things they've done doesn't automatically mean you want them gone.

[JordanTremenderson]

So where's all the protests and FSG abuse at the match then? If half our fanbase want them out (your words) and hate them so much as you've claimed where are all the protests?

Your problem seems to be you see a few anti FSG posts on social media and have somehow labelled that as "half our fanbase sending them abuse"

And another thing, criticising some things they've done doesn't automatically mean you want them gone.

The match day fans are a very small percentage of our fanbase (there have been some protests albeit rubbish ones), the match days fans mostly seem to appreciate FSG, thankfully.

Half our fans base is obviously a guess, no one know how many want them out, but there is absolutely no doubt a large percentage do.

There you go again chatting tosh "a few".  It is the opposite of "a few". 

I didn't say half our fanbase have sent them abuse.  Many have, many are just hugely critical, many just wanted them out.  They are many who appreciate them too.

But many wanted change, wanted them out and the ones who did (there were many), then don't moan.  They wanted this!

[El Lobo]

I dont think there's any doubt that there's been a select few posters on RAWK openly wanting them out, certainly recently. But definitely not a huge percentage.

[JordanTremenderson]

I dont think there's any doubt that there's been a select few posters on RAWK openly wanting them out, certainly recently. But definitely not a huge percentage.

RAWK isn't a microcosm for LFC fans though and as you say some even wanted them out on here.

Go on twitter where there are thousands and thousands of our fans slagging them off constantly & not just them they get huge support when they do.

Those are the ones who shouldn't be moaning at any changes occurring.

People making out not many wanted them out is just crazy.  You don't live in reality.

[redmark]

Our signings in the past year have been Diaz, Konate and Nunez. Dont know who wanted whom, but if it was Klopp then I would say that he knows a player when he sees one.

And our midfield signings have been? We can't look at who we have signed without considering gaps we haven't filled.

Hypothetical: the analysts (within budget) identified a forward and a midfielder for the summer, but Klopp only wanted Nunez, which meant we couldn't afford the midfielder.

In principle, managers having control over signings presents issues (however good that manager is; not least, what's the structure when he leaves?). In practice, he's got quite a lot of other stuff to do and so much time to do it. I can't see this as a good thing, overall.

[El Lobo]

And our midfield signings have been? We can't look at who we have signed without considering gaps we haven't filled.

Hypothetical: the analysts (within budget) identified a forward and a midfielder for the summer, but Klopp only wanted Nunez, which meant we couldn't afford the midfielder.

In principle, managers having control over signings presents issues (however good that manager is; not least, what's the structure when he leaves?). In practice, he's got quite a lot of other stuff to do and so much time to do it. I can't see this as a good thing, overall.

The last few weeks and certain reports coming out are certainly throwing a few curveballs about 'who to blame' for certain things

[Hi72]

Could it be that Edwards is going to accept a role somewhere like the Saudi Magpies and he has tapped up his key men to join him from the start of next summer transfer window? 

[clinical]

Could it be that Edwards is going to accept a role somewhere like the Saudi Magpies and he has tapped up his key men to join him from the start of next summer transfer window?

Yeah could well be.