Topic: Rhian Brewster

[Dim Glas]

So where’s it gone wrong for Rhian? Not long ago everyone was adamant he was destined for the first team squad, he went on loan and put up good numbers and in what seems like no time he’s up for sale

I’m not sure much has gone wrong.

If he’s sold i honestly think it’s just a business decision. It’d explain why they seem keen to get a buy back clause.

In this climate with covid, Liverpool are being even more careful, so need to balance the books more, and unfortunately sometimes, that means selling assets to do that.

If things where calmer, or if they could sell some other players like Wilson and maybe Grujic, for decent money, it may be that they would not entertain selling Brewster.

Just reckon Klopp would have been happy to have him on loan at a prem club this season in a perfect world, and see if he could work on aspects of his game he has been quite public about that need improving.   

[buttersstotch]

So where’s it gone wrong for Rhian? Not long ago everyone was adamant he was destined for the first team squad, he went on loan and put up good numbers and in what seems like no time he’s up for sale

I get the feeling the club wanted to him to go out on loan again, but Brewster wants to play. Nothing more to it than that. He's a good player, but he isn't good enough for us right now to be leading the line and he probably doesn't want to be 6th choice.

[jillcwhomever]

Do we know where he is going yet? I hope something is sorted out soon, then he can get on with things wherever he ends up it will be interesting watching his progress.

[William Regal]

Not sure if anything went wrong, very promising player

I think the bottom line is that we needed money to make the Thiago and Jota deals and were struggling to sell the players we wanted to sell to finance it in karius, wilson and gruic so we took the money we could get from hoever and brewster with the hunch that they might not make it here or fit our system.

The rumour that we are looking to put a buy back clause in his contract suggests that we feel he may either

- develop into a liverpool player
or
- develop into a player who will sell for a bigger price in future

[Fromola]

I’m not sure much has gone wrong.

If he’s sold i honestly think it’s just a business decision. It’d explain why they seem keen to get a buy back clause.

In this climate with covid, Liverpool are being even more careful, so need to balance the books more, and unfortunately sometimes, that means selling assets to do that.

If things where calmer, or if they could sell some other players like Wilson and maybe Grujic, for decent money, it may be that they would not entertain selling Brewster.

Just reckon Klopp would have been happy to have him on loan at a prem club this season in a perfect world, and see if he could work on aspects of his game he has been quite public about that need improving.

It's the opposite in a way. He's got a lot more value in the market - and interest in him - than Origi, Shaq or Wilson and can bring in decent money for a player who Klopp is not going to play regularly.

[Sheer Magnetism]

So where’s it gone wrong for Rhian? Not long ago everyone was adamant he was destined for the first team squad, he went on loan and put up good numbers and in what seems like no time he’s up for sale

He went on loan. No one the club expects to get into the first team goes on loan.

[Eeyore]

He went on loan. No one the club expects to get into the first team goes on loan.

That really isn't true.

Origi has clearly been a first team player before and after his loan.

[Sheer Magnetism]

You think there's ever been a time under Klopp when Origi was viewed as someone who could or would be an automatic starter? Because I don't.

[Eeyore]

You think there's ever been a time under Klopp when Origi was viewed as someone who could or would be an automatic starter? Because I don't.

You didn't say that though you said we do not loan out players that we expect to get in to the first team. Origi made 33 appearances in 15/16, 43 appearances in 16/17 and 42 appearances in 19/20.

He is clearly a first team player.

[Fordy]

He went on loan. No one the club expects to get into the first team goes on loan.

We urgently need to stop with that mentality because players won't go out on loan if this is the case and it shouldn't be.

[Fordy]

He went on loan. No one the club expects to get into the first team goes on loan.

Liverpool coaches rate Brewster. England coaches rate Brewster. PL coaches rate Brewster.

The issue for Brewster is that he's kind of like a Owen and Klopp likes his number 9 to be forward that can drop into midfield, get the ball,pass and move. He's not really fussed about the 9 scoring goals.

Brewster also is highly rated that we can talk about 20m plus for him without setting the PL alight.

I like Brewster and hope he stays because I know he will score goals but as I say Klopp want's more than goals.

[Sheer Magnetism]

It isn't my mentality, it's a fact. A bunch of players who were in the first team squad played in the week, but they're squad players. Van Dijk and perhaps Keita are the only players who would be considered a first team pick when everyone is fit, and the rest are reserves.

Origi came back as a reserve, scored goals as a reserve, is still a reserve and will be a reserve until he's sold. He scored goals at the business end of the champions league, scored on the first day of last year and went straight back to the reserves when the regular front three were all fit. That's just the way it is.

[Eeyore]

Brewsters biggest issue is that he is up against Sadio, Bobby and Mo for a starting place. Even the likes of Fowler and Owen would struggle to break in to this team as a kid.

[Eeyore]

It isn't my mentality, it's a fact. A bunch of players who were in the first team squad played in the week, but they're squad players. Van Dijk and perhaps Keita are the only players who would be considered a first team pick when everyone is fit, and the rest are reserves.

Origi came back as a reserve, scored goals as a reserve, is still a reserve and will be a reserve until he's sold. He scored goals at the business end of the champions league, scored on the first day of last year and went straight back to the reserves when the regular front three were all fit. That's just the way it is.

Timo Werner would not of been a first pick. He would have still been a first team player.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Brewsters biggest issue is that he is up against Sadio, Bobby and Mo for a starting place. Even the likes of Fowler and Owen would struggle to break in to this team as a kid.

We just spent £41 million on another forward. Do you think we'd be doing that and selling Brewster if Klopp thought he was a worthwhile option in the front three?

[Fordy]

We just spent £41 million on another forward. Do you think we'd be doing that and selling Brewster if Klopp thought he was a worthwhile option in the front three?

Yes, as Jota won't be playing as a 9.

Brewster can only play as a 9 that's his issue. Origi and Jota can play across the front 3. If anything Jota is signed to replace Origi.

[Eeyore]

We just spent £41 million on another forward. Do you think we'd be doing that and selling Brewster if Klopp thought he was a worthwhile option in the front three?

Your original argument was that Brewster would not make it because he was loaned out and suggested that we do not loan out players who we think will become first team players.

Origi clearly disproves that theory. He was loaned out and then became a first team player.

You are now talking about Jota as evidence when he is in the exact same situation as Origi, he isn't a first choice player and therefore is a reserve, according to you.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Origi was never considered as a first team choice after being loaned out. He was a reserve, that's a fact. It's also a fact that Brewster was a pure number 9 when he went on loan, was played there the entire time he was at Swansea and remains the same player now. So if that's the issue, it was an issue before Klopp sent him on loan, wasn't it?

And neither you nor I have any idea what the plans for Jota are because we bought him two minutes ago and he hasn't even had the chance to start a league game, so I have no idea why you're comparing him to someone we bought in 2014 before any of our first choice front three had even joined the club.

[Eeyore]

Origi was never considered as a first team choice after being loaned out. He was a reserve, that's a fact. It's also a fact that Brewster was a pure number 9 when he went on loan, was played there the entire time he was at Swansea and remains the same player now. So if that's the issue, it was an issue before Klopp sent him on loan, wasn't it?

And neither you nor I have any idea what the plans for Jota are because we bought him two minutes ago and he hasn't even had the chance to start a league game, so I have no idea why you're comparing him to someone we bought in 2014 before any of our first choice front three had even joined the club.

You have first team players. They are the players who are in the first team squad week in week out. Then you have reserves who traditionally would have played for the reserves. Origi is clearly a first team player. He makes the matchday squad week in week out and made 42 appearances last season.

That means he made more appearances last season than Hendo, Fabinho and Alisson to suggest he isn't a first team player is frankly absurd.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Origi was fit more or less the entire season and started six first team matches, and that was only when one of the front three were missing or all three were being rested. The rest of the time he was on the bench, in other words the literal definition of a reserve. And that's been the most impressive fate of any player that's gone out on loan in the last five years - by some distance. Even if you're trying to extend the meaning of a first team player to someone who spends most of their time outside the first team, that's clearly not the definition I was using, so what exactly are you arguing with me about?

[Eeyore]

Origi was fit more or less the entire season and started six first team matches, and that was only when one of the front three were missing or all three were being rested. The rest of the time he was on the bench, in other words the literal definition of a reserve. And that's been the most impressive fate of any player that's gone out on loan in the last five years - by some distance. Even if you're trying to extend the meaning of a first team player to someone who spends most of their time outside the first team, that's clearly not the definition I was using, so what exactly are you arguing with me about?

Origi started 14 games last season.

He started or came on in 42 games and was an unused sub in a further 10 games. So was involved in 52 games for the first team.

[Black Bull Nova]

At this club, we have, quite rightly, a great desire for players to come through  and be stars, like Owen, Like Fowler, Like McManaman, Like Gerrard, Like Carragher, Like Alexander-Arnold. It is what we really crave most.

We also like buying cheap, Like Robertson, Like Rush.

We hate the thought that we might have someone that falls into the above categories and we let them go, like Chelsea have done a few times.

[Legini]

We are the best team in the world, but we can't afford to buy the world's best players... Except when we sell our young guns to offset their cost. The young guns are the players we bring through the academy, or find and buy before they have hit the big time. We might not be able to match city and others for their outright cash, but we can in scouting youth, and in gathering data to find the best-undervalued talent across the world.

And Klopp can make these young players better, much much better, but he can't make everyone better, especially when what the young players need is game time at the highest level. So they will be sold, and they may be players you feel strongly about, but that's the way it is, and it's best to get used to it, because if we want to keep being the best, it's going to keep happening.

[Eeyore]

At this club, we have, quite rightly, a great desire for players to come through  and be stars, like Owen, Like Fowler, Like McManaman, Like Gerrard, Like Carragher, Like Alexander-Arnold. It is what we really crave most.

We also like buying cheap, Like Robertson, Like Rush.

We hate the thought that we might have someone that falls into the above categories and we let them go, like Chelsea have done a few times.

The thing is none of the players you mentioned broke through when we were winning things. If you want kids to come through have an average first team. Owen, Fowler and Macca wouldn't displace our current front three and even Gerrard as a kid wouldn't be guaranteed being a first choice. 

[bornandbRED]

The reason we’re selling him is because the men in charge don’t think he’s good enough. That’s the short and long of it.

[Jake]

The thing is none of the players you mentioned broke through when we were winning things. If you want kids to come through have an average first team. Owen, Fowler and Macca wouldn't displace our current front three and even Gerrard as a kid wouldn't be guaranteed being a first choice.

Maybe 17 year old Owen, Fowler, Macca and Gerrard wouldn't. But they'd be in and around the squad and come through a few years later. Gerrard at 20 gets into our midfield three on a regular basis (treble winning season), Fowler at 20 gets into the front three on a regular basis (fastest hat trick vs Arsenal at 20 wasn't it?), Owen was third in the player of the year at age 18, and Macca played 50 odd games in a season at age 20 (in 1992, before we became bog standard).

Brewster isn't Owen, Fowler, Macca or Gerrard and it's a bad comparison.

[Dim Glas]

The reason we’re selling him is because the men in charge don’t think he’s good enough. That’s the short and long of it.

If they are trying to sell with a buy back clause, it’d very mich suggest it’s more for financial reasons as they think he might develop, they don’t tend to look for buy back clauses when selling young players who they don’t deem good enough.

I agree he’s not good enough as of now, but I think they still have an inkling he has the talent to take the next step if he improves on certain aspects.

[Scottymuser]

Origi started 14 games last season.

He started or came on in 42 games and was an unused sub in a further 10 games. So was involved in 52 games for the first team.

He started 7 games (were he was then subbed off in every single one before the 75th min) never consecutively; he then came on in 21 games, 14 of which were past the 75th min and we were resting one of the front 3.   Total of 705 mins.  He started 1 game in the Champions League (when we rested BOTH Mane and Firmino), and came on 5 more times, for a total of 187 mins.  We don't tend to use our first team in the FA Cup or League Cup, so it is pointless to use them to say whether he counts as first team (combined 340 mins starting 4 matches between the 2 competitions)- in the CWC he started the match where we rested 8 of our first choice against Monterrey.  To try and then  claim he is first team, and "made more appearances than Fab/Hendo/Allison" when he had 1426 mins in all comps, including the Community Shield and UEFA Super Cup, 2 glorified friendlies, is intellectually dishonest.  The season before he played even less (368 mins in the PL) - if he is  "first team" than so is basically everyone in our entire 25 man squad.

In the 2 seasons before going out on load, he definitely was more "first team" (both seasons, including the one he broke through and then Everton broke him in Feb) he played more mins in just the PL than last season in all competitions (or both of the last 2 seasons in the PL and CL combined), but since coming back he has pretty much been a bench sitter, and not usually even the first choice replacement for any of our front 3 unless others are not fit.  That's not to say that Brewster, who at least looks like a prolific striker (unlike Origi) couldn't get more mins if he stayed, but with Jota being signed, and Taki looking like he is also in the mix, it's unlikely he will, and if he only gets 600-700 mins there is no chance of him continuing his development etc.

[Eeyore]

He started 7 games (were he was then subbed off in every single one before the 75th min) never consecutively; he then came on in 21 games, 14 of which were past the 75th min and we were resting one of the front 3.   Total of 705 mins.  He started 1 game in the Champions League (when we rested BOTH Mane and Firmino), and came on 5 more times, for a total of 187 mins.  We don't tend to use our first team in the FA Cup or League Cup, so it is pointless to use them to say whether he counts as first team (combined 340 mins starting 4 matches between the 2 competitions)- in the CWC he started the match where we rested 8 of our first choice against Monterrey.  To try and then  claim he is first team, and "made more appearances than Fab/Hendo/Allison" when he had 1426 mins in all comps, including the Community Shield and UEFA Super Cup, 2 glorified friendlies, is intellectually dishonest.  The season before he played even less (368 mins in the PL) - if he is  "first team" than so is basically everyone in our entire 25 man squad.

In the 2 seasons before going out on load, he definitely was more "first team" (both seasons, including the one he broke through and then Everton broke him in Feb) he played more mins in just the PL than last season in all competitions (or both of the last 2 seasons in the PL and CL combined), but since coming back he has pretty much been a bench sitter, and not usually even the first choice replacement for any of our front 3 unless others are not fit.  That's not to say that Brewster, who at least looks like a prolific striker (unlike Origi) couldn't get more mins if he stayed, but with Jota being signed, and Taki looking like he is also in the mix, it's unlikely he will, and if he only gets 600-700 mins there is no chance of him continuing his development etc.

Personally I think you are confusing first choice with first team. I think it is clear that Origi is a valuable member of the first team squad. He has done that despite going out on loan. The reason for his lack of minutes for me is down to how durable the front three are. If the front three had a similar injury record to our centre backs then for me Origi would have played a lot more minutes. I think there is every chance that Brewster could become a valuable member of the first team squad if we did not need to free up cash.

[Scottymuser]

Personally I think you are confusing first choice with first team. I think it is clear that Origi is a valuable member of the first team squad. He has done that despite going out on loan. The reason for his lack of minutes for me is down to how durable the front three are. If the front three had a similar injury record to our centre backs then for me Origi would have played a lot more minutes. I think there is every chance that Brewster could become a valuable member of the first team squad if we did not need to free up cash.

I am not sure I agree with your statement about Origi being an "important" member at all - if he were, the manager would rotate the front three more and give him more appearances instead of Taki/the Ox/Jota.  And on Brewster - he is already 20, and has basically got half a season of any type of senior football behind him playuing in the championship, scoring only 1 goal in every other game (pretty meh record for someone a top 6 club, let alone us, should be looking at); he needs a lot more first team football to determine whether he is good enough to keep, and not sure who would be up for loaning him and then playing (you only have to look at Wilson at Bournmouth who got benched because he had a few sub-par games and they wanted to prioritise their permanent staff - usually unless they are superstars most loaned players get bits and pieces roles) - and at a level above  the EFL preferably.  Given all that, a perm deal with a buy back option is 100% the right call for me

[Eeyore]

I am not sure I agree with your statement about Origi being an "important" member at all - if he were, the manager would rotate the front three more and give him more appearances instead of Taki/the Ox/Jota.  And on Brewster - he is already 20, and has basically got half a season of any type of senior football behind him playuing in the championship, scoring only 1 goal in every other game (pretty meh record for someone a top 6 club, let alone us, should be looking at); he needs a lot more first team football to determine whether he is good enough to keep, and not sure who would be up for loaning him and then playing (you only have to look at Wilson at Bournmouth who got benched because he had a few sub-par games and they wanted to prioritise their permanent staff - usually unless they are superstars most loaned players get bits and pieces roles) - and at a level above  the EFL preferably.  Given all that, a perm deal with a buy back option is 100% the right call for me

I don't disagree with you.

My initial point was challenging the notion that being loaned out automatically rules you out of being in and around the first team. Brewster's development was stunted because he lost a year of his career to an injury and desperately needed game time.

A lot of whether a player comes through or not is based on luck. A young player having a good run of form combined with an injury or two to a senior player can be all it takes.

[spider-neil]

I think if we had takers for the likes of Grujic it's possible that Brewster would have been retained. As it is, Brewster is one of the few players that anyone is interested in (that isn't a key player). Liverpool can make money to balance the books in the short term and can buy him back if he kicks on in the long term.

[bornandbRED]

If they are trying to sell with a buy back clause, it’d very mich suggest it’s more for financial reasons as they think he might develop, they don’t tend to look for buy back clauses when selling young players who they don’t deem good enough.

I agree he’s not good enough as of now, but I think they still have an inkling he has the talent to take the next step if he improves on certain aspects.

I think the buy back clause is just a token thing; can’t remember a significant example of when it has ever been exercised by a PL club. Also can’t see why a player in that position would be so keen to come back to a club that essentially gave up on them.

Personally think anything around £20m for a player who’s never made a PL appearance for us is fantastic business.

[harleydanger]

Surprised Rodgers isn't after him

[farawayred]

Surprised Rodgers isn't after him

If Brewster is leaving as rumor has it so that he can play regularly, it doesn't seem like a surprise, does it? He's not going to displace Vardy or any of their attacking players (Barnes is doing pretty well too). I don't know, but it doesn't seem likely for me that Brendan would be interested.

[Wingman]

If they are trying to sell with a buy back clause, it’d very mich suggest it’s more for financial reasons as they think he might develop, they don’t tend to look for buy back clauses when selling young players who they don’t deem good enough.

I agree he’s not good enough as of now, but I think they still have an inkling he has the talent to take the next step if he improves on certain aspects.

If we need the cash right now then why not pawn someone like Mo? Brewster’s a talent, but we’re just hedging our bets with a buy back / sell on clause. I don’t think he’s going to make it here under Klopp.

[Redcap]

The thing is none of the players you mentioned broke through when we were winning things. If you want kids to come through have an average first team. Owen, Fowler and Macca wouldn't displace our current front three and even Gerrard as a kid wouldn't be guaranteed being a first choice. 

I mean, you don't need to back that far for a relevant comparison. The real comparison is Curtis Jones, isn't it?

Clearly we've decided that Jones cuts the mustard in the short term and long term, and we're holding on to him. The same conclusion hasn't been reached about Rhian, for whatever reason.

I suspect some of it is down to Jones's willingness to be patient as well. Jones is willing to accept the role that he plays in the squad, whereas I think Brewster wants more. To be fair, we're willing to give Jones more minutes than Brewster at the moment, so that's probably got a lot to do with it.

Whatever the reasons, Brewster is likely to finish the window at another club. If he breaks through and does really well, then maybe we've missed out on bringing through another great player through the academy. But to be perfectly honest, that happens all the time with big clubs. The likes of Barca and Real would have lost count of the number of players they've sold who've gone on to have good careers elsewhere. It's part and parcel of being a big club.

[spider-neil]

Surely if the club had no aspirations with regards to bringing Brewster back they would insert a sell on clause rather than a buy back clause. Or better yet, why insert a clause at all and command a larger initial transfer fee? The club is covering its bases in case Brewster kicks on.

Another factor is the current front 3 are all 28 and Brewster is 20. Plenty of time to gain experience.

[fowlermagic]

Yes, as Jota won't be playing as a 9.

Brewster can only play as a 9 that's his issue. Origi and Jota can play across the front 3. If anything Jota is signed to replace Origi.

How can you pigeon hole a player at the age of 20 as only a #9 as surely Klopp has proven time and again that he can mould a player. Look at Salah as who would think at 20 he could lead the line and score 20 plus league goals a year as the likes of you would say hes just a winger I guess. Rhian has a lot to learn but any talented player has the ability to learn new tricks / systems etc and any lad who has been in the Liverpool system under Klopps reign has played his system through all age levels. Rhian may not succeed here but its not because he is just a #9 its because he has three world class players ahead of him.

[jonnypb]

Brewster gives us another option, he's clearly got an eye for goal and is a good finisher.  But he needs game time and it will be very limited at the minute.

If we can get £25M for him with a buy back clause then I think that's good business for all concerned.  Give him a season or two at another PL club and we'll either be able to buy back a very good striker for not that much money, or we'll all be sitting here saying what a good deal we got for brewster, just like we've said for Solanke and Ibe who weren't going to make it here.