Topic: FSG (*)

[Dave D]

So you think Dave D has every right to see employees salaries of someone working at Liverpool FC, especially those earning more than 100k, because Dave D supports Liverpool?

I think you may need to read my post again. I’m not sure how you took that I have “every right to see employees salaries of someone working at Liverpool FC, especially those earning more than 100k” from what I wrote.

Why are people deliberately misinterpreting other people’s words in this thread? What is there to gain from it?

[Chakan]

I think you may need to read my post again. I’m not sure how you took that I have “every right to see employees salaries of someone working at Liverpool FC, especially those earning more than 100k” from what I wrote.

Why are people deliberately misinterpreting other people’s words in this thread? What is there to gain from it?

Obviously a lot of the admin staff would be general admin. I had no idea about the increase in ticket sales staff. Do you know how many we hired?

You do raise an interesting point though. It would be useful to know the exact breakdown of the 62 admin/commercial/other staff hired.

We don't need to know what the tea lady is earning. We could start by using your arbitrary figure of £100k. I think a lot of fans would be interested in seeing how many people earned £100k+ at the club.

So which people are you referring to in this post then?

[Dave D]

So which people are you referring to in this post then?

There’s a difference between wanting to see individual salaries and wanting to see how many people earn over a certain amount. I’d settle for the latter.

I’m not sure who we’d ask for this type of information. Our CEO did a runner the day before the accounts came out and our chairman is nowhere to be seen.

[Chakan]

There’s a difference between wanting to see individual salaries and wanting to see how many people earn over a certain amount. I’d settle for the latter.

I’m not sure who we’d ask for this type of information. Our CEO did a runner the day before the accounts came out and our chairman is nowhere to be seen.

So you want the club to say we hired 62 new staff and 30 of them are earning over 100k?

[El Lobo]

There’s a difference between wanting to see individual salaries and wanting to see how many people earn over a certain amount. I’d settle for the latter.

I’m not sure who we’d ask for this type of information. Our CEO did a runner the day before the accounts came out and our chairman is nowhere to be seen.

That's good of you.

Shitter is you'll have to settle for much less than the latter, because there's literally zero chance of you ever knowing what you want to know and rightly so.

[Anfield Ed]

That's good of you.

Shitter is you'll have to settle for much less than the latter, because there's literally zero chance of you ever knowing what you want to know and rightly so.

I suggest he reads up on employment law. It's pretty basic stuff.

[Dave D]

So you want the club to say we hired 62 new staff and 30 of them are earning over 100k?

I’m not sure why someone speaking on behalf of the owners would only give us the figures for 62 people, that wouldn’t be very helpful.

Why is there such resentment to fans contemplating how many people within the club earn over £100k? To the best of my knowledge no one has actually asked the club for this information.

I don’t think many people expect anyone from the admin/commercial/other department to be earning over £100k. It should be 0 based on the performance of that particular group.

[Chakan]

I’m not sure why someone speaking on behalf of the owners would only give us the figures for 62 people, that wouldn’t be very helpful.

Why is there such resentment to fans contemplating how many people within the club earn over £100k? To the best of my knowledge no one has actually asked the club for this information.

I don’t think many people expect anyone from the admin/commercial/other department to be earning over £100k. It should be 0 based on the performance of that particular group.

I don't think you as a supporter have any right to that information.

[cdav]

The question for Dave is why? Why would you want to know and what would you do if you did get it? Data is only useful if there is context and understanding- we only have a single years increase in wages to judge- is it a one off increase or a more worrying trend.

But this about £100k doesn't mean anything at all. Someone senior in the commercial department could be earning £100k and have contacts/ bring in a sponsor worth £10m- good or bad? We don't know as we are not involved in performance management. Someone on the admin staff who helps the players with every query (from housing to things to do locally to helping their families settle) and is loved by them could earn over £100k- good or bad? You could probably get someone to do it cheaper- but you could say that about my job or anyone elses! I don't see how this is relevant.

[Billy The Kid]

This thread truly is amazing at times.

Unless you're someone with a grounded understanding of corporate finance, accounting, business law and the intricacies of the U.K tax codes then I honestly don't think you should be attempting to discuss the financial complexities of running one of the biggest clubs in world football. Seriously, some of you need to wind it in a bit and stop conjuring up arguments about things that - in truth - you really know fuck all about.

I don't think there's ever been another thread where so many people have made so many assertions based on so much idle conjecture. I'm all for people taking an interest in the goings on at the club and I'm all for debating the merits of our owners. But lets not lose the run of ourselves either, eh?   

[CraigDS]

There’s a difference between wanting to see individual salaries and wanting to see how many people earn over a certain amount. I’d settle for the latter.

I’m not sure who we’d ask for this type of information. Our CEO did a runner the day before the accounts came out and our chairman is nowhere to be seen.

Outside of footballing/coaching staff, 16 people do.

Now, what have you managed to deduce from that information?

[Dave D]

Outside of footballing/coaching staff, 16 people do.

Now, what have you managed to deduce from that information?

You could have mentioned it earlier. Out of the latest accounts for Liverpool Football Club and Athletic Grounds Limited. How much were those 16 paid in total out of the £208m wage bill?

[CraigDS]

You could have mentioned it earlier. Out of the latest accounts for Liverpool Football Club and Athletic Grounds Limited. How much were those 16 paid in total out of the £208m wage bill?

All would be, obviously, because that's the wage bill.

So what have you deduced from this?

[Dave D]

All would be, obviously, because that's the wage bill.

So what have you deduced from this?

I would not be able to deduce anything, either positive or negative, from the limited information you supplied.

Do you have the total combined wage for those 16 people?

We need to remember this all started from trying to investigate the 25% wage increase and the wage to turnover ratio increasing to 69%. The reason for this is based on other clubs who have found themselves in similar a similar. The result of these increases would, in some instances, require the club having to sell to buy and selling players to cover the wages, while the people running the club brief their favourite media outlets against the manager, and thus deflecting away from their incompetence at running a football club.

This would certainly never happen at this well-oiled machine of a football club, but you can surely understand people’s concerns over the increase and their attempts at trying to find some answers.

[CraigDS]

I would not be able to deduce anything, either positive or negative, from the limited information you supplied.

You wanted the number, I gave you a number. Now you've shifted and want an amount. Next you'll want this broken down into who and what they are being paid, and probably if this increased from the year before.

And guess what, I could give you all that and you'd still be able to come up with fuck all from it. Fuck all.

Do you have the total combined wage for those 16 people?

Not to give you. No.

We need to remember this all started from trying to investigate the 25% wage increase and the wage to turnover ratio increasing to 69%. The reason for this is based on other clubs who have found themselves in similar a similar. The result of these increases would, in some instances, require the club having to sell to buy and selling players to cover the wages, while the people running the club brief their favourite media outlets against the manager, and thus deflecting away from their incompetence at running a football club.

Please provide examples of such situations whilst also referring specifically to warning signals in our financial results which indicate this is even a slight possibility of happening here. I bet you can't.

This would certainly never happen at this well-oiled machine of a football club, but you can surely understand people’s concerns over the increase and their attempts at trying to find some answers.

No, I don't understand it at all, because there is simply nothing here to be pissing yourself over like you are.

Let's be honest, your real issue here is you got it in your head that this is potentially a way the owners are taking money out. Don't beat around the bush, it's what you've been getting at this whole time.

[keyop]

Why is there such resentment to fans contemplating how many people within the club earn over £100k? To the best of my knowledge no one has actually asked the club for this information.

I don't think it's resentment, it's just hard to understand what could be gained from it and why fans think we have any right to see it.

If FSG/LFC was a public sector body that a proportion of your income tax funded (like the council or the police), then they would be accountable to the public (and to the voters) and would have to declare a lot more than a private company. But they are not a public body and none of your earnings goes to them apart from what you voluntarily spend.

Some fans on here seem to think they have the right to hold the owners to account for everything, but no matter what romantic view of fan-led football anyone holds, they don't owe us all an explanation for everything they do. That's not to say that we shouldn't keep a watchful eye on what happens, but I don't understand the relentless nit-picking on this thread of just about every possible facet of the club's activity, much of it completely unwarranted.

I personally couldn't care less how many employees are on £100k + per year, especially as many players earn that in a week. If any non-players are on £100k + per year then they are likely to be in a role that generates far more than that amount in revenues, either through sponsorship deals, hospitality, shirt sales, and the many other income streams that our commercial staff manage. You pay more to make more - that's how most successful businesses work.

Non-playing staff salaries is yet another random avenue down which this bizarre thread has gone. There are so many signs of clear progress in the last 18 months, I see no reason why people are still trying to dig up something that can be used to criticise the owners. It's either an inherent suspicion of anyone in a suit, or fans over-analysing everything and actively looking for negatives.

[penga]

If we’re unable to explain the massive increase in wages, then we’re unable to claim it will never happen again and we’re unable to say the increase in TV revenue will cover it.

Another 25% increase and that TV money is wiped out.

I think people would like to know if having a negative net spend on our transfers this season really was down to players not being available, or if it was required to pay the wages and balance the books.

The latter part has been explained many times with logical context but a lot of you refuse to consider this.

- Less games to give squad players due to not being in Europe so able to trim the squad
- We sold squad players who wanted to leave for more playing time for high transfer fees in total (Benteke, Ibe, Allen, Skrtel, Smith, etc)
- We replaced upgraded on that with 3 first team players and other squad players (Mane, Gini, Matip, Karius, Klavan, Manninger). One happened to be a free transfer so that helps.
- Chance for academy players to step up and not have their pathway blocked by aging or non-improving squad players, and they did reasonably well imo, at least up until one point in the season.
- All of the above has been explained or suggested by the manager.

However our season went tits up because:
- Injuries (look and Chelsea's "luck"), AFCON
- Loss of confidence throughout whole squad in January which meant previously when our squad players could beat the likes of Leeds, Derby and Spurs in the cups - all of a sudden everything was a lot more difficult than it should've been.

Reasons we couldn't buy in January and other considerations:
- Difficult market e.g. most clubs not willing to let players leave mid-season, players not willing to leave (didn't have to be only monetary reasons) e.g. Azmoun "I would have ended up playing a few games and then spent a great deal of time on the bench as Liverpool were only looking to fill a void for a particular part of their season."
- None of our rivals in the EPL bought anyone in January despite all of them having more competitions and with the exception of Chelsea, all at a similar position at on the table. In fact some of them ended up selling squad players.
- Spurs manager even admitted our squad was better than his after we defeated his "2nd team" with our "2nd team" in the EFL cup.

[El Lobo]

This thread truly is amazing at times.

I would say its taken a bizarre twist, but it really is just in keeping with the general theme of the whole thread

[NaivetyinBlack]

The result of these increases would, in some instances, require the club having to sell to buy and selling players to cover the wages, while the people running the club brief their favourite media outlets against the manager, and thus deflecting away from their incompetence at running a football club.

This would certainly never happen at this well-oiled machine of a football club, but you can surely understand people’s concerns over the increase and their attempts at trying to find some answers.

Fucking hell. Is there any limit to speculative heresay here ? I feel like I'm reading a press briefing from KellyAnne Conway. Might as well tag your posts with #AlternativeFacts.

[Ipcress]

Fucking hell. Is there any limit to speculative heresay here ? I feel like I'm reading a press briefing from KellyAnne Conway. Might as well tag your posts with #AlternativeFacts.

It's like since social media Newton's lost law has been found: opinion > logic.

[Purple Red]

This thread truly is amazing at times.

Unless you're someone with a grounded understanding of corporate finance, accounting, business law and the intricacies of the U.K tax codes then I honestly don't think you should be attempting to discuss the financial complexities of running one of the biggest clubs in world football. Seriously, some of you need to wind it in a bit and stop conjuring up arguments about things that - in truth - you really know fuck all about.

I don't think there's ever been another thread where so many people have made so many assertions based on so much idle conjecture. I'm all for people taking an interest in the goings on at the club and I'm all for debating the merits of our owners. But lets not lose the run of ourselves either, eh?

This post wins the thread. I've never been mathematically gifted and as a result I wish I had a better understanding of business, finance and economics. It amazes me that there could be so many people on a football forum with such detailed understandings of these issues. I'm not denying that there are some very well reasoned and thought out posts in this thread but I feel as if many of them are purely based on conjecture. We don't know all the facts. Indeed, we have no experience of running a multi-million institution like Liverpool. This is something that I honestly feel must be left up to the experts. Unless there is concrete evidence that someone at the club is just pocketing cash and spending it on cars and mansions, we are really speculating.

[Dave D]

Fucking hell. Is there any limit to speculative heresay here ? I feel like I'm reading a press briefing from KellyAnne Conway. Might as well tag your posts with #AlternativeFacts.

Which part do you have issues with?

It can't be with people looking for answers in relation to the future of the club, can it?

[Eeyore]

This post wins the thread. I've never been mathematically gifted and as a result I wish I had a better understanding of business, finance and economics. It amazes me that there could be so many people on a football forum with such detailed understandings of these issues. I'm not denying that there are some very well reasoned and thought out posts in this thread but I feel as if many of them are purely based on conjecture. We don't know all the facts. Indeed, we have no experience of running a multi-million institution like Liverpool. This is something that I honestly feel must be left up to the experts. Unless there is concrete evidence that someone at the club is just pocketing cash and spending it on cars and mansions, we are really speculating.

On the first point I agree running the Club should be left to the experts. The thing is FSG have come in with absolutely no experience of running a Football Club. They came in with the attitude that brightest and best weren't currently working in Football and then bizarrely handing it over to Ayre and Comolli two men with absolutely appalling records in Football.

For me if we had experts running the Club from day one then this thread wouldn't exist. Sadly six and a half years on and FSG are coming out with the same nonsense about putting the final pieces of the Clubs structure in place, a structure that will apparently last us for years. As I kid I built snowmen that had structures that lasted longer than FSG's latest and greatest structure for the Club.

What I can't fathom though is the massive contradiction when it comes to those defending FSG's failings. It is a bizarre mixture of excusing their mistakes by stating that they are new to Football and bound to make mistakes combined with shouting down any debate with the mantra that they are super smart people who know far more than us about running a Football Club.

Regarding the second point about people pocketing money cash and spending it on cars and mansions well for me without credible evidence I think people shouldn't be making such absurd accusations.

Especially when it gives the people looking to defend FSG a chance to duck questions whilst sycophantically patting each other on the back and abusing fellow posters views. The most interesting point in the last few pages for me was FSG using Vero communications in the same way H&G did to effectively rewrite the narrative regarding themselves and the purchase of the Club.

Unsurprisingly that was completely ignored in the haste to try and goad Dave into posting something he had no intention of posting.

So is there any chance we can leave the nonsense of where the wage bill goes and get back to talking about how FSG have done during their tenure.

[CraigDS]

Dave is the one posting about the wages constantly Al. No one else is.

[Dave D]

Dave is the one posting about the wages constantly Al. No one else is.

We may have differing definitions of what ‘constantly’ means.

The owners have been here nearly 2,500 days. The latest accounts have only been out 22 days.

We could discuss the performance of the commercial department instead if you like?

[CraigDS]

We may have differing definitions of what ‘constantly’ means.

The owners have been here nearly 2,500 days. The latest accounts have only been out 22 days.

We could discuss the performance of the commercial department instead if you like?

Simply pointing out to Al who is bringing up the wages seems he appeared under the illusion it was those he classed as 'defending FSG'.

[Eeyore]

Dave is the one posting about the wages constantly Al. No one else is.

Any thoughts on this Craig.

The Challenge

To help ensure NESV's takeover of Liverpool FC was seen by local, national and international media and stakeholders as positive for the Club. Position NESV as an organisation that can be trusted, is credible and has a compelling vision for the Club's future.
The Outcome

NESV succesfully took over ownership of Liverpool FC on 15 October 2010 after a highly intense negotiation and heavily scrutinised legal battle with the previous owners.

The subsequent newspaper headlines concerning NESV's purchase of LFC, particularly given the significant initial scepticism towards one set of US owners being replaced by another, indicate the success of the campaign and NESV-VERO effort.


Makes you wonder about the JWH charm offensive in which he met with fans groups. Was that genuine or just part of the NESV-VERO effect. Strangely enough that initial charm offensive soon wore off. Initially replaced by a supporters committee they set up on their terms which as you know the owners don't even bother attending now.

People complain constantly about this thread but what alternative is there with the lines of communications between the owners and the fans effectively cut off. That lack of dialogue is probably best illustrated by the ticket hike walkout fiasco. We are all fans of the Club and want to see it do well so why can't the owners make a real attempt to get everyone pulling in the same direction. Instead of resorting to media campaigns and the constant dripping off info to the Echo.

[El Lobo]

So is there any chance we can leave the nonsense of where the wage bill goes and get back to talking about how FSG have done during their tenure.

So you can go back again and post again the same things you've posted again and again about how they employed the wrong people, didn't save us from administration etc etc? Its been done to death, again and again. Its done. We know. You're not happy, you don't trust them, they've made mistakes, you've detailed these mistakes to a detail that no-one else in the world has and then gone back and detailed them further than you detailed them previously.

[Eeyore]

So you can go back again and post again the same things you've posted again and again about how they employed the wrong people, didn't save us from administration etc etc? Its been done to death, again and again. Its done. We know. You're not happy, you don't trust them, they've made mistakes, you've detailed these mistakes to a detail that no-one else in the world has and then gone back and detailed them further than you detailed them previously.

At least I try and add something to the debate mate.

What do you do, insult fellow reds and desperately try and close down the thread.

[CraigDS]

Any thoughts on this Craig.

Any thoughts on a multi billion dollar company, purchasing a £300m+ business which has a sports fan following, investing in a PR firm to make sure things go smoothly?

to be honest I'd be shocked if they hadn't. Same for anyone (including the Sheik, Roman, etc). Standard practice.

Doesn't necessarily mean they were employed to push lies or hide the truth. Of course.

[El Lobo]

At least I try and add something to the debate mate.

What do you do, insult fellow reds and desperately try and close down the thread.

You don't add anything though Al, you literally repeat what you've said hundreds of times before.

[El Lobo]

Any thoughts on a multi billion dollar company, purchasing a £300m+ business which has a sports fan following, investing in a PR firm to make sure things go smoothly?

to be honest I'd be shocked if they hadn't. Same for anyone (including the Sheik, Roman, etc). Standard practice.

Doesn't necessarily mean they were employed to push lies or hide the truth. Of course.

Its honestly bizarre, the absolute desperation to paint these guys as the same as H&G or that there's some underhand business going on. And this is from people on the internet, that's it. Not people with industry experience, or experience of running any sort of business or anything remotely close to it. Literally 'I'm a Liverpool fan, and this is what I think, but I'm gonna add 2 and 2 together and come up with 94475 and then present it as fact'.

[Eeyore]

You don't add anything though Al, you literally repeat what you've said hundreds of times before.

Maybe you should stop attempting to shut down the debate and come up with a factual account of what FSG have done right then mate ?

You know engage in an actual debate.

[El Lobo]

Maybe you should stop attempting to shut down the debate and come up with a factual account of what FSG have done right then mate ?

You know engage in an actual debate.

There are 175 pages of going around and around and around and around in circles, and you now want to have a debate about what FSG have done right? Its been done, its been done by you, its been done by me, its been done by Craig, its been done by KinKi, its been done by Billy etc etc etc etc. You know, if you're that interested Al just go back in the thread and have a look. Nothing has changed since the last debate about what FSG have done well and haven't done well. The only remote change in this thread around FSG was in the last few weeks, where someone bizarrely wanted to know how many staff members earn more than £100,000 a year at the club. And that's one you wanted to shut down because the lad in question was getting pulverised.

Your latest claim against FSG seems to be they used the same PR firm that H&G used. That's it. No evidence about what was discussed, just 'they used the same PR firm'. What debate are you a) actually expecting to get from that and b) could you possibly get from that, since your information is quite literally limited to 'they used the same PR firm'? Is that PR firm solely used by American crooks who are aiming to disable huge football clubs?

[Eeyore]

Any thoughts on a multi billion dollar company, purchasing a £300m+ business which has a sports fan following, investing in a PR firm to make sure things go smoothly?

to be honest I'd be shocked if they hadn't. Same for anyone (including the Sheik, Roman, etc). Standard practice.

Doesn't necessarily mean they were employed to push lies or hide the truth. Of course.

For me they were employed to deflect the attention away from FSG's background as largely being Hedge fund managers. To portray them as just honest to goodness sports fans who just happened to be lucky enough to do what all fans would do and own a team.

For me that is a deliberate attempt to deceive the fans because even their biggest admirers now continually use the 'just business men' get out of jail card time and time again.

They portrayed themselves as fans who desperately wanted to build up lines of communications with their fellow fans. Another deception. Day by day it becomes clearer and clearer that they don't see us as fans but consumers whose only role is to have their affinity for the Club leveraged.

There is now transparency no open lines of communications just Mandelsonesque levels of Spin and PR sound bites. They employ a PR company to spin their way into the fans loyalty and affinity for the Club and then posters wonder why people question their motives and their actions. 

[Eeyore]

There are 175 pages of going around and around and around and around in circles, and you now want to have a debate about what FSG have done right? Its been done, its been done by you, its been done by me, its been done by Craig, its been done by KinKi, its been done by Billy etc etc etc etc. You know, if you're that interested Al just go back in the thread and have a look. Nothing has changed since the last debate about what FSG have done well and haven't done well. The only remote change in this thread around FSG was in the last few weeks, where someone bizarrely wanted to know how many staff members earn more than £100,000 a year at the club. And that's one you wanted to shut down because the lad in question was getting pulverised.

Your latest claim against FSG seems to be they used the same PR firm that H&G used. That's it. No evidence about what was discussed, just 'they used the same PR firm'. What debate are you a) actually expecting to get from that and b) could you possibly get from that, since your information is quite literally limited to 'they used the same PR firm'? Is that PR firm solely used by American crooks who are aiming to disable huge football clubs?

So we have just had another January window when we didn't sign anyone, we have just had the latest shake up of the Club's structure. We have just had the accounts published. We have a pivotal summer transfer window approaching but according to you there is nothing to debate regarding FSG ?

[Eeyore]

Its honestly bizarre, the absolute desperation to paint these guys as the same as H&G or that there's some underhand business going on. And this is from people on the internet, that's it. Not people with industry experience, or experience of running any sort of business or anything remotely close to it. Literally 'I'm a Liverpool fan, and this is what I think, but I'm gonna add 2 and 2 together and come up with 94475 and then present it as fact'.

Or we could go with the age old strategy regarding adding 2+2 up and ignore it adds up to 4 and wait until the next accounts / the next window / next summer or basically anything that stops the fans making a judgement regarding FSG's six and a half years in charge.

[El Lobo]

So we have just had another January window when we didn't sign anyone, we have just had the latest shake up of the Club's structure. We have just had the accounts published. We have a pivotal summer transfer window approaching but according to you there is nothing to debate regarding FSG ?

There is absolutely nothing you're debating Al which hasn't been already, repeatedly. What about that is hard to understand....?

Every aspect of what you've said, you know very little about. Why didn't we sign anyone, who makes the decisions, was it Klopp, was it FSG, budget, wages etc? Same with the structure, same with the accounts. Debate is fine, but its guesswork. Its all based on absolute guesswork, which generally deteriorates into 'you have no idea what you're talking about'. There aren't any facts that you want to debate which haven't already been done to death.

We've done the January window, we've all agreed we should have signed someone. Done. Who to blame? You want to place that solely at the feet of FSG. For no reason, there's no proof. The only evidence around that any of us have is what the manager has said, which you have already said you don't believe. So where is there to go with that debate? We didn't sign Brandt in January because FSG gave a number cruncher a pay rise?

[PaulD]

I should make clear that the comments below are addressed to Al 555

One of the tough things about reading your comments is that they are relentlessly critical.
In terms of engaging in a meaningful debate...
It would be helpful if you set out how you would like FSG to operate ... day to day, week to week, month to month. Please extend this with what you consider to be doable objectives over the next two to five years.

[El Lobo]

Or we could go with the age old strategy regarding adding 2+2 up and ignore it adds up to 4 and wait until the next accounts / the next window / next summer or basically anything that stops the fans making a judgement regarding FSG's six and a half years in charge.

People HAVE made a judgement Al, you seem to miss that point every time. They could and should have done better. Again, done. What more debate do you want? Its like you've got an addiction to having the same debate time and again. You just end up lumping in ridiculous quotes, like 'they hired the same PR firm as H&G' and THAT is what kills the thread.