Topic: VOTE NOW! The EU elections are vital

[Trada]

The person who milkshaked Frottage yesterday worked for Sky in some form Skynews has just said.

[TepidT2O]

I tell you what, if any one tried to throw a milkshake over me, they be drinking it through a straw next time they tried it.

[Elmo!]

I tell you what, if any one tried to throw a milkshake over me, they be drinking it through a straw next time they tried it.

Spoken like a true UKIP candidate 

https://twitter.com/CountDankulaTV/status/1126895006294450178

[BoRed]

Lord Heseltine loses Tory whip after endorsing the Lib Dems

Thatcher's defence secretary endorses Lib Dems - and you wonder why people don't trust them?

Here's something to annoy people:

Why remainers should keep the faith and vote Labour on Thursday

Zoe Williams

Corbyn’s equivocation on Brexit is maddening. But a vote for his party on Thursday is still the best option

Legend has it that a group of Liberal Democrats on the Isle of Wight once exercised their democratic right by putting the CND logo on their ballot papers rather than a cross. It was meant as a protest vote – though confusingly, one that was unrelated to nuclear disarmament. It is true that you don’t have to make your mark with a cross. In another episode involving Lib Dems, the party successfully argued that a voter who depicted male genitalia in their candidate’s box was nevertheless intending to cast a vote for them. That story has the benefit of being verifiable: the CND signs, unfortunately, not so much. I dredged though newspapers back to 1983, harassed academics, and dug into the annals of Isle of Wight politics, all to no avail.

Why, you might ask, in the lead-up to elections that the far right is already visualising as a famous victory, did I fritter my energy away in such idle research? Utter frustration had a lot to do with it. Because imagine what the European elections would look like if you could signal – whichever party you voted for – that yours was a remain vote. Maybe it could be done through placing a star instead of a cross on the ballot paper. Or “a B with a cross through it”, as someone suggested to me, on the grounds that “nobody knows how to draw a star”.

This would have been game-changing for Labour voters, who could have supported the candidates they believed in without the threat of their vote being interpreted, post hoc, as a call to “get on with Brexit”. It could have galvanised the not insignificant body of Conservatives who are pragmatic remainers, and have thus been denounced as traitors by the suddenly dominant extremists within their party. If there had been a way to signal unambiguous opposition to Brexit, the remain vote could have split any which way and still have been united.

In the absence of that, what is to be done? A month ago I wrote that remainers had nothing to fear from voting Labour. Jeremy Corbyn and Labour’s MEPs belonged to the party of European Socialists, and were therefore already signed up to the most visionary, transformative and radical manifesto the EU had seen since the earliest ambitions of its founders. Fourteen of Labour’s MEPs were allied to the campaign group Love Socialism Hate Brexit, and committed to a confirmatory referendum. Richard Corbett, Julie Ward, Jude Kirton-Darling and Seb Dance have been among the most vocal, prescient and persuasive critics of this Brexit shambles since 2016. The selection of candidates, including Momentum’s Laura Parker and ex-head of Best for Britain, Eloise Todd, suggested to me that the party was going to swing full-remain for these elections, and stay there.

But I had reckoned without the power of the “Lexit” faction, stuck in a fantasy world where the archetypal leaver is a working-class Labour voter of the north whose unchangeable and righteous wrath is more important and “authentic” than that of any remainer, whatever their class. As a result of their influence, the party finds itself in the absurd position of leavers thinking it is pro-remain, while remainers think it is determined to facilitate leave. Corbyn’s pledge to ensure the party unites leavers and remainers has been fulfilled, but only in one regard: none of us believe he’s truly on our side.

Perhaps you’re wondering: “But what’s the dilemma?” I’m no tribal Labour loyalist. I’ve left the party and come back. I’ve voted Green while still being a member of Labour. I was in it and critical of it for most of my youth; out and critical of it for some of this century. One year I did knocking-up duty while fully intending to spoil my ballot. (“I’m here to make sure you’re going to get out and vote,” I’d begin, “but equally, it is fine if you just write ‘bollocks to it’.”)

This time is different: first, it runs counter to every democratic instinct to see candidates you admire and not vote for them. The Labour candidates are the kind of representatives I would like to see populate the coming era of politics. They are pluralistic, imaginative, radical, ambitious, patriotic. There are Greens I’d say the same about (Molly Scott-Cato, for instance), but to live in London and not vote for a slate I think should be at the heart of the party’s future seems absurd.

Second, these elections may be of symbolic significance for our national politics. But they are also of pressing, concrete importance for Europe’s future direction. The rise of the far right in the European parliament constitutes an urgent threat to everything that matters to Labour voters, from human and workplace rights to climate crisis. More than ever, that parliament needs a coherent left bloc. And with Brexiters continuing to sabotage every conceivable Brexit and support for remain climbing all the time, we do need to at least plan for the possibility that these MEPs are in for the long haul.

Third, someone needs to oppose Nigel Frottage, and that will come much more convincingly from somebody with a track history of fighting racism – Clive Lewis, say – than it does from a clubbable Lib Dem. The days when the mainstream right and centre were morally capable of resisting untruth, corruption and racism on their own terms are over: only Labour can do this.

Fourth, the party is moving: on the Andrew Marr Show, Corbyn committed to a confirmatory vote. Sadiq Khan promised to campaign “day and night” for remain, come the final say referendum that he now thinks a certainty. The shadow Brexit secretary, Keir Starmer, along with others in Labour’s cabinet, will accept nothing less.

It is a crushing frustration that, when you vote for a party with a mixed message, your message itself becomes mixed. Voting Labour will be an act of faith, trusting it to resolve itself as the natural party of remain. But there are voices within the party who justify what is, essentially, a Tinkerbell manoeuvre: they’ll only prevail if you believe in them.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/21/remainers-faith-vote-labour-corbyn-brexit

[Zeb]

Here's something to annoy people:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/21/remainers-faith-vote-labour-corbyn-brexit

It's desperate stuff. My favorite Lib Dem story was when the Lib Dem local councillor, upon seeing a ballot paper with the word 'c*nt' next to every name but his own, successfully argued it was a vote for him.

[Rhi]

Thatcher's defence secretary endorses Lib Dems - and you wonder why people don't trust them?

This is a very stupid opinion.

[Jiminy Cricket]

This is a very stupid opinion.

No kidding. Why is it that we so often hear rhetoric based upon faulty logic along the lines of, 'how can you hold the same position as Heseltine or Blair (vote for LibDems, push for a confirmatory referendum, etc.)'; but we never hear those same people argue, for example, 'how can you hold the same views as Frottage or May (leave EU, etc.)'. Why!? We know why!? (Rhetorical question).

[Sangria]

No kidding. Why is it that we so often hear rhetoric based upon faulty logic along the lines of, 'how can you hold the same position as Heseltine or Blair (vote for LibDems, push for a confirmatory referendum, etc.)'; but we never hear those same people argue, for example, 'how can you hold the same views as Frottage or May (leave EU, etc.)'. Why!? We know why!? (Rhetorical question).

We can compare the reception that Heseltine and Corbyn got for their speeches during the PV march. Heseltine was cheered by all. Corbyn was...

[ShakaHislop]

Thatcher's defence secretary endorses Lib Dems - and you wonder why people don't trust them?

Here's something to annoy people:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/21/remainers-faith-vote-labour-corbyn-brexit

"Voting Labour will be an act of faith"

#notacult

Are there going to be ouija boards at next Conference so we can communicate with Tony Benn?

[Zeb]

Comres asked the hypothetical "and how would you vote if Labour became pro-Remain and offered an in/out referendum?". I'll leave the comparison and answer on the spoiler.

Spoiler

MRP:

BRX 32%
LAB 24%
LDM 15%
CON 11%
GRN 6%
CHUK 4%
SNP/PC 4%
UKIP 2%

"If Lab became pro-Remain and promised In/Out 2nd Ref" (MRP):

LAB 38%
BRX 30%
CON 11%
LD 9%
SNP/PC 4%
CHUK 3%
UKIP 3%
GRN 2%
Others 1%

(via Comres' Andrew Hawkins)

[close]

So it's true enough that Labour can beat Frottage. Just not the version of Labour which wants to chase Frottage's voters.

[Zeb]

Last Yougov/Times poll for this election.

Spoiler

(via Times' Sam Coates)

[close]

Could use Labour for a Referendum re-forming. Get McDonnell, Hoey, and Stringer energised about the idea again.

[ShakaHislop]

Last Yougov/Times poll for this election.

Spoiler

(via Times' Sam Coates)

[close]

Could use Labour for a Referendum re-forming. Get McDonnell, Hoey, and Stringer energised about the idea again.

Over 3 times as many 2017 Labour voters lost to the Lib Dems and Greens than to the Brexit Party.

[Red-Soldier]

The simple facts are that Corbyn cannot come out 100 percent in favour of something that he doesn't really believe in.

It's why Labour's position is in such a mess.

[Devon Red]

Quick info dump for tomorrow's vote;

Both Remain United and Remain Voter have now published their final updated guide to regional voting.

Remain United - https://www.remainunited.org/

Vote Remain - https://www.remainvoter.com/

The key message for remainers is to vote. If you can't bring yourself to vote for the best tactical option then vote for the second best. But just be sure to vote for a remain party. Lib Dems, Greens, Change UK, SNP and Plaid are all clear remain parties.

Turnout is going to be the difference in this election. Bring a remainer friend, call round family, offer lifts. The polling for this election is especially difficult because turnout is so hard to predict, but it will be crucial. Young people especially, if you want to make your voices heard then you have to vote!

[Red-Soldier]

Quick info dump for tomorrow's vote;

Both Remain United and Remain Voter have now published their final updated guide to regional voting.

Remain United - https://www.remainunited.org/

Vote Remain - https://www.remainvoter.com/

The key message for remainers is to vote. If you can't bring yourself to vote for the best tactical option then vote for the second best. But just be sure to vote for a remain party. Lib Dems, Greens, Change UK, SNP and Plaid are all clear remain parties.

Turnout is going to be the difference in this election. Bring a remainer friend, call round family, offer lifts. The polling for this election is especially difficult because turnout is so hard to predict, but it will be crucial. Young people especially, if you want to make your voices heard then you have to vote!

No fucking shit Sherlock!!

Not sure I need a website to confirm this for me 

[Rhi]

Just crunched the numbers for Wales. Plaid look relatively safe for 1 MEP. If you're in Wales and want to remain, give your other vote to the Lib Dems. Brexit Party look set to get 2 MEPs. Fucking sickening.

[Devon Red]

No fucking shit Sherlock!!

Not sure I need a website to confirm this for me 

Ha! I was trying to find a subtle(ish) way of saying don't vote Labour.

[Lusty]

Quick info dump for tomorrow's vote;

Both Remain United and Remain Voter have now published their final updated guide to regional voting.

Remain United - https://www.remainunited.org/

Vote Remain - https://www.remainvoter.com/

The key message for remainers is to vote. If you can't bring yourself to vote for the best tactical option then vote for the second best. But just be sure to vote for a remain party. Lib Dems, Greens, Change UK, SNP and Plaid are all clear remain parties.

Turnout is going to be the difference in this election. Bring a remainer friend, call round family, offer lifts. The polling for this election is especially difficult because turnout is so hard to predict, but it will be crucial. Young people especially, if you want to make your voices heard then you have to vote!

Not sure what I'm supposed to do in the South East.  Remain United say LD or Green, Remain Voter says Change UK.

Difference seems to be that Remain United doesn't give change UK a chance but Remain Voter does, so maybe I should take the optimistic view?

[Indomitable_Carp]

Not sure what I'm supposed to do in the South East.  Remain United say LD or Green, Remain Voter says Change UK.

Difference seems to be that Remain United doesn't give change UK a chance but Remain Voter does, so maybe I should take the optimistic view?

Do you particularly want to vote ChangeUK?

[Lusty]

Do you particularly want to vote ChangeUK?

No one wants to vote Change UK

But if it's the difference between one more remain MEP or one more leave MEP then I'll do it.

[Devon Red]

Another interesting resource for tomorrow's vote; https://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2019/05/22/the-remain-strategy-region-by-region-voting-guide

I should also add that if it's a choice between not voting for anyone or voting Labour the absolutely vote Labour. That's why I was cautious about not explicitly saying not to vote Labour in any circumstances. If you're a remainer it makes more sense in almost all cases to vote for a clearly remain party, but if you simply can't bring yourself to vote for anyone but Labour then please still turn out and vote. Voting Labour could at least block a Brexit Party gain in some cases.

Not sure what I'm supposed to do in the South East.  Remain United say LD or Green, Remain Voter says Change UK.

Difference seems to be that Remain United doesn't give change UK a chance but Remain Voter does, so maybe I should take the optimistic view?

From everything I've read I would go Lib Dem, but if you favour another party strongly then absolutely vote for that party. The key thing is maximising the remain vote and minimising the Brexit vote.

[Zeb]

If you're in the NW, it's worth getting out to vote just so we don't end up with 'Tommy Robinson' as an MEP. Nick Griffin getting in on a low turnout was a disgrace enough, fucking slug did fuck all work too.

[thejbs]

Quick info dump for tomorrow's vote;

Both Remain United and Remain Voter have now published their final updated guide to regional voting.

Remain United - https://www.remainunited.org/

Vote Remain - https://www.remainvoter.com/

The key message for remainers is to vote. If you can't bring yourself to vote for the best tactical option then vote for the second best. But just be sure to vote for a remain party. Lib Dems, Greens, Change UK, SNP and Plaid are all clear remain parties.

Turnout is going to be the difference in this election. Bring a remainer friend, call round family, offer lifts. The polling for this election is especially difficult because turnout is so hard to predict, but it will be crucial. Young people especially, if you want to make your voices heard then you have to vote!

Beyond parody that even after everything that has happened in this past 3 years, Northern Ireland has been completely ignored by one of those sites.

Edit: politics uk also omits NI

[Elmo!]

Beyond parody that even after everything that has happened in this past 3 years, Northern Ireland has been completely ignored by one of those sites.

Edit: politics uk also omits NI

Always irks me when journalists/politicians etc refer to the nationwide parties (usually as an excuse for excluding the SNP) ignoring the fact the nationwide parties (Tory/Lib Dem/Labour) don't generally stand in NI and are therefore not nationwide.

[Libertine]

Not sure what I'm supposed to do in the South East.  Remain United say LD or Green, Remain Voter says Change UK.

Difference seems to be that Remain United doesn't give change UK a chance but Remain Voter does, so maybe I should take the optimistic view?

If in doubt, vote Lib Dem. Some of these efforts are trying to be far too clever.

[Rhi]

Beyond parody that even after everything that has happened in this past 3 years, Northern Ireland has been completely ignored by one of those sites.

Edit: politics uk also omits NI

Is it just because of the different voting system though? Northern Ireland is using the Single Transferable Vote, so it's sort of obvious how to vote because you rank your choices in order of preference. The rest of the UK is using the d'Hondt system, in which we get just one choice and we need to best figure out how to use it.

[Lusty]

Another interesting resource for tomorrow's vote; https://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2019/05/22/the-remain-strategy-region-by-region-voting-guide

I should also add that if it's a choice between not voting for anyone or voting Labour the absolutely vote Labour. That's why I was cautious about not explicitly saying not to vote Labour in any circumstances. If you're a remainer it makes more sense in almost all cases to vote for a clearly remain party, but if you simply can't bring yourself to vote for anyone but Labour then please still turn out and vote. Voting Labour could at least block a Brexit Party gain in some cases.

From everything I've read I would go Lib Dem, but if you favour another party strongly then absolutely vote for that party. The key thing is maximising the remain vote and minimising the Brexit vote.

Interesting, the politics.co.uk page seems to think LD are more likely to get a third seat than Change UK are to get a first.

Think I'll go Lib Dems then, 2 out of the 3 sites say to go with them, and they've been a lot more visible campaigning round by me than the others. 

[gemofabird]

Should be interesting to see the turnout for this?

[Trump's tiny tiny hands]

If in doubt, vote Lib Dem. Some of these efforts are trying to be far too clever.

Them or Greens, if in London. Not sure about this tactical vote for Change UK giving Seb Dance a good chance to survive while depriving the Brexit Party the extra seat.

Tactical voting or not, we are really needing those younger voters to turnout en masse. 

[Zeb]

These are the voting ranges the polling has right now:

Brexit Party 30% (Panelbase) - 38% (Opinium)
Labour 13% (YouGov) - 25% (Panelbase)
Conservatives 7% (YouGov) - 14% (Survation)
Greens 4% (Survation) - 12% (YouGov)
Lib Dems 12% (Survation) - 19% (YouGov

(via Will Jennings (professor, Sky's polling boffin))

Massively influenced by turnout and how polling companies try to adjust for that as well as just the general volatility of it all. Still not quite sure myself how I'm voting, although I know who I definitely won't be. Will think on it more on the walk to polling station tomorrow.

[Elmo!]

Had decided to vote Green but the most recent polls indicate they are unlikely to win a seat up here unfortunately.

SNP could be between 2 and 4 seats (but almost certainly 3), and Lib Dems could gain one.

Will have to have a think about it tonight....

[Indomitable_Carp]

No one wants to vote Change UK

But if it's the difference between one more remain MEP or one more leave MEP then I'll do it.

Fair enough! I would say Lib Dem remains the 'safest' Remain party if you are thinking tactically.

I personally wouldn't put too much thought into the tactical vote though and just go for whichever 'Remain' party is your most preferred.

[filopastry]

Yeah I think i will vote LibDem in London, haven't seen anything to make me think there is definitely a more useful way to vote.

[Wabaloolah]

I have been voting for 30 years, I have supported Labour in every single election I have voted in.  Not tomorrow though, a combination of Corbyn and the EU shambles that is essentially Corbyn's doing means I will not be voting Labour tomorrow.  I can't vote Lib Dem as I cannot forgive them for getting into bed with the Tories, I'll be supporting Change UK tomorrow

[Wabaloolah]

No one wants to vote Change UK

I do

[Wabaloolah]

Fair enough! I would say Lib Dem remains the 'safest' Remain party if you are thinking tactically.

I personally wouldn't put too much thought into the tactical vote though and just go for whichever 'Remain' party is your most preferred.

The Lib Dems had their chance, if they had not buckled down under Cameron's heel then I doubt we'd have ever got to the stage of an EU Referendum.  Cameron would not have won in 2015 had the Lib Dem Support not collapsed.

[ShakaHislop]

I have been voting for 30 years, I have supported Labour in every single election I have voted in.  Not tomorrow though, a combination of Corbyn and the EU shambles that is essentially Corbyn's doing means I will not be voting Labour tomorrow.  I can't vote Lib Dem as I cannot forgive them for getting into bed with the Tories, I'll be supporting Change UK tomorrow

Change UK has 3 actual Tories in it though?

[Wabaloolah]

Another interesting resource for tomorrow's vote; https://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2019/05/22/the-remain-strategy-region-by-region-voting-guide

I should also add that if it's a choice between not voting for anyone or voting Labour the absolutely vote Labour. That's why I was cautious about not explicitly saying not to vote Labour in any circumstances. If you're a remainer it makes more sense in almost all cases to vote for a clearly remain party, but if you simply can't bring yourself to vote for anyone but Labour then please still turn out and vote. Voting Labour could at least block a Brexit Party gain in some cases.

From everything I've read I would go Lib Dem, but if you favour another party strongly then absolutely vote for that party. The key thing is maximising the remain vote and minimising the Brexit vote.

FFS that link says that Plaid Cymru are the Brexit banker.  No way am I voting for the fucking Welsh Nationalists, I might have to back Labour after all as the lifesaver! Fucking Hell!

[Wabaloolah]

Change UK has 3 actual Tories in it though?

Good point but they aren't Tories anymore.  I actually like Heidi Allen and what she has to say.  Lib Dems are still compliant with the biggest Austerity drive this country has seen and they could have stopped it and said No! We are where we are in part down to that

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

The Lib Dems had their chance, if they had not buckled down under Cameron's heel then I doubt we'd have ever got to the stage of an EU Referendum.  Cameron would not have won in 2015 had the Lib Dem Support not collapsed.

Just out of curiosity, how long will you hold this over them for?