Author Topic: Man City - cheating bastards rumbled  (Read 2789177 times)

Offline Aguero9320

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11480 on: November 10, 2020, 04:33:55 am »
I enjoyed this perspective, thanks. A few qs:

1. It seems as though Pep has resolved to get a higher level of results rather than big margin wins. So the CMs seem deeper, and Walker rarely attacks. This puts more of an onus on the attacking players and with DS gone it appears Sterling and Mahrez are feeling the strain of that. Do you think that’s fair?

2. It feels now as though you are playing non Pep football.  Do you sense a permanent change of ideology to a more result based outlook?

3. Do you feel Jesus is under appreciated? I say that as you mention the step up to world class but I am not sure neutrals see that. That doesn’t mean neutrals are right, I am more interested in the City faith in his LT potential

4. Do you think Foden should even now be playing more? As a neutral I find him a great player to watch with unusual ability in an English sense. I know he is playing more but I would expect him to be even more regular. Are you saying KdB and he can never play together or just not in a Pep side.

5. Do you expect Pep to renew?

Would really be interested in your thoughts here ta

1. Walker has never really attacked for us, he has basically played as a right sided centre-back in posession to protect our defence from counters with the permission to bomb forward with his pace at times to open up space. The double pivot is definitely something new, but it stems from Rodri's struggles in the Fernandinho role when he has no functioning press in front of him. Its our pressing game that has declined more than anything, along with having failed to find a balance between control and penetration in our current midfielders. Add to that both our wingers (Sterling and Mahrez) needs to be inverted to be effective, yet our style require wingers being effective on the outside(Left footed Sane on the left, right footed Raz on the right) to work the patterns on the egde of each side of the box that made us succesfull. Silva leaving definitely is a miss, since no one in the squad has the same understanding of space and how to create it as he did.

2. No I dont think its meant to be permanent. Imo its because he currently has too many players that doesnt fit in a free flowing Pep team that he feels has to play. Its not really a loss of ideology, but I definitily think he has lost some ruthlessnes. I havr said it before and I will say it again: If Mahrez was at the club when Pep arrived he would be the first out the door. Now he has been the first name on the teamsheet for what feels like forever.

3. Yes. Especially by City fans. He lacks one asset, and that is Aguero's ability to create something out of nothing with his back against the wall. I love him, his press, awareness and technical level and movement is already at such a high level, and only 23.

4. I think him and Kev can't play together in the same system that KdD and Silva did. They both play very high-risk games and very prone to give the ball away For the most part I think Pep's handling off Phil has been brilliant. There has been times I think he should have been played over someone else on merit, but that is more to credit Phil than discredit Pep. He is only 20 and I think we will thank Pep for his slow integration 10 years from now on

5. Im really not sure. For what its worth I dont think he is in a healthy state of mind at the moment based on his behaviour. The death of his mother and his wife moving back to Spain definitely has played a part. Depends if he still feels the job is right for him or if he is the right man for the job. He is very outspoken about a squad responding to his methods in cycles. Only thing I know for sure is I either want a fully motivated Pep or no Pep at all

Offline Medellin

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11481 on: November 10, 2020, 07:39:24 am »
The death of his mother and his wife moving back to Spain definitely has played a part.

That is enough to make anyone lose their focus, drive & everything else that is expected..I have no idea whether his mrs has moved around with him & his job with his kids in to too?
If that's the case where they have been together thro their careers & now she's gone..that's a biggie.
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Offline phil236849

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11482 on: November 10, 2020, 08:26:13 am »
1. Walker has never really attacked for us, he has basically played as a right sided centre-back in posession to protect our defence from counters with the permission to bomb forward with his pace at times to open up space. The double pivot is definitely something new, but it stems from Rodri's struggles in the Fernandinho role when he has no functioning press in front of him. Its our pressing game that has declined more than anything, along with having failed to find a balance between control and penetration in our current midfielders. Add to that both our wingers (Sterling and Mahrez) needs to be inverted to be effective, yet our style require wingers being effective on the outside(Left footed Sane on the left, right footed Raz on the right) to work the patterns on the egde of each side of the box that made us succesfull. Silva leaving definitely is a miss, since no one in the squad has the same understanding of space and how to create it as he did.

2. No I dont think its meant to be permanent. Imo its because he currently has too many players that doesnt fit in a free flowing Pep team that he feels has to play. Its not really a loss of ideology, but I definitily think he has lost some ruthlessnes. I havr said it before and I will say it again: If Mahrez was at the club when Pep arrived he would be the first out the door. Now he has been the first name on the teamsheet for what feels like forever.

3. Yes. Especially by City fans. He lacks one asset, and that is Aguero's ability to create something out of nothing with his back against the wall. I love him, his press, awareness and technical level and movement is already at such a high level, and only 23.

4. I think him and Kev can't play together in the same system that KdD and Silva did. They both play very high-risk games and very prone to give the ball away For the most part I think Pep's handling off Phil has been brilliant. There has been times I think he should have been played over someone else on merit, but that is more to credit Phil than discredit Pep. He is only 20 and I think we will thank Pep for his slow integration 10 years from now on

5. Im really not sure. For what its worth I dont think he is in a healthy state of mind at the moment based on his behaviour. The death of his mother and his wife moving back to Spain definitely has played a part. Depends if he still feels the job is right for him or if he is the right man for the job. He is very outspoken about a squad responding to his methods in cycles. Only thing I know for sure is I either want a fully motivated Pep or no Pep at all

That’s really interesting and helpful mate, cheers

Offline Dim Glas

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11483 on: November 10, 2020, 11:47:21 am »
This is all very pleasant, but frankly, of little relevance, when we all know there is a massive elephant in this room - and that is the fact that what Manchester City FC do or achieve is irrelevant, because we also all know that this version of Manchester City - i.e. the one that won the lottery and can spend endlessly exist solely for the purpose of sports washing the image of Abu Dhabi.

Therefore the pertinent questions to ask a fan of the club should surely begin with that. 

Presuming they are a fan who hasn’t just crawled out of the woodwork in the last few years, it might be interesting to know how they reconcile with the knowledge of why their owners own the club. I.E. not because they have any great love of the sport or the city, and not because they want to try and make money from the many opportunities that come from it,  and not because they want a great sports portfolio because that’s their passion and that’s their line of business, but simply because they know this is the perfect way to wash the image of a horrific regime. And it works a treat by the way. 

Sure, fans want success, and I guess maybe for Man City fans, living in the shadow of a far bigger club rankled so much, that this payoff is acceptable. But of course the irony of that is, Man City are still the same smaller club, and Man Utd are still the behemoth they have worked hard to be over the years. Regardless of regression since Ferguson retired. And maybe you can argue that without being in the situation of supporting a club with little success - how would we ever know what it felt like (evident again with many Newcastle Utd fans positive reactions to their supposed takeover).  But that is what makes it intriguing, how much are fans willing to ignore for that end? Out of sight, out of mind and all that. I think most of us likely support teams in other sports or leagues who aren’t successful (I certainly do), so it’s maybe possible to look at it from that angle too - and maybe get what they feel? I don’t know. I struggle with it. It’s just such a repulsive situation to know that the people who own your club do so for the very worst reasons.

And answering with nothing but whataboutisms - which is a favourite diversion tactic of Manchester City fans these days, isn’t acceptable.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 11:49:00 am by Dim Glas »

Offline phil236849

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11484 on: November 10, 2020, 11:23:23 pm »
This is all very pleasant, but frankly, of little relevance, when we all know there is a massive elephant in this room - and that is the fact that what Manchester City FC do or achieve is irrelevant, because we also all know that this version of Manchester City - i.e. the one that won the lottery and can spend endlessly exist solely for the purpose of sports washing the image of Abu Dhabi.

Therefore the pertinent questions to ask a fan of the club should surely begin with that. 

Presuming they are a fan who hasn’t just crawled out of the woodwork in the last few years, it might be interesting to know how they reconcile with the knowledge of why their owners own the club. I.E. not because they have any great love of the sport or the city, and not because they want to try and make money from the many opportunities that come from it,  and not because they want a great sports portfolio because that’s their passion and that’s their line of business, but simply because they know this is the perfect way to wash the image of a horrific regime. And it works a treat by the way. 

Sure, fans want success, and I guess maybe for Man City fans, living in the shadow of a far bigger club rankled so much, that this payoff is acceptable. But of course the irony of that is, Man City are still the same smaller club, and Man Utd are still the behemoth they have worked hard to be over the years. Regardless of regression since Ferguson retired. And maybe you can argue that without being in the situation of supporting a club with little success - how would we ever know what it felt like (evident again with many Newcastle Utd fans positive reactions to their supposed takeover).  But that is what makes it intriguing, how much are fans willing to ignore for that end? Out of sight, out of mind and all that. I think most of us likely support teams in other sports or leagues who aren’t successful (I certainly do), so it’s maybe possible to look at it from that angle too - and maybe get what they feel? I don’t know. I struggle with it. It’s just such a repulsive situation to know that the people who own your club do so for the very worst reasons.

And answering with nothing but whataboutisms - which is a favourite diversion tactic of Manchester City fans these days, isn’t acceptable.

Maybe.

I still like to hear what articulate fans of rivals think of their own team thanks.

Offline vivabobbygraham

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11485 on: November 10, 2020, 11:39:05 pm »
Maybe.

I still like to hear what articulate fans of rivals think of their own team thanks.

I don't think Dim is disagreeing with you, he's just coming from another angle that's worth considering also
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Offline Dim Glas

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11486 on: November 10, 2020, 11:50:07 pm »
I don't think Dim is disagreeing with you, he's just coming from another angle that's worth considering also

Oh I dunno, unless Man City fans will address that, everything else is sort of by the by as it where! Nothing that team does is relevent to how I watch football.  They are lottery winners, they are fake, they are cheats.  They really have no redeeming qualities.  Their fans’ attitude I guesss is out of sight out of mind, being as they are absolutely fine with their owners and the fact no bugger apart from Everton fans respect them. Maybe they can’t be blamed, I dunno. Them and their owners are just a bugbear of mine. But at the end of the day, it’s the premier leagues fault that they don’t seem to care who owns these clubs. The sale of Man City to Abu Dhabi should never have been allowed.

Edited to add - obvioulsy no problem with other people here wanting to discuss whatever with them! Just that what some random Abu Dhabi fan thinks of Aguero or whoever is of zero interest to me  ;D Unless they can stop living their football lives with their eyes closed and their fingers in their ears, they don't have a voice worthy of hearing.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 11:53:07 pm by Dim Glas »

Offline vivabobbygraham

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11487 on: November 11, 2020, 12:05:21 am »
Oh I dunno, unless Man City fans will address that, everything else is sort of by the by as it where! Nothing that team does is relevent to how I watch football.  They are lottery winners, they are fake, they are cheats.  They really have no redeeming qualities.  Their fans’ attitude I guesss is out of sight out of mind, being as they are absolutely fine with their owners and the fact no bugger apart from Everton fans respect them. Maybe they can’t be blamed, I dunno. Them and their owners are just a bugbear of mine. But at the end of the day, it’s the premier leagues fault that they don’t seem to care who owns these clubs. The sale of Man City to Abu Dhabi should never have been allowed.

Edited to add - obvioulsy no problem with other people here wanting to discuss whatever with them! Just that what some random Abu Dhabi fan thinks of Aguero or whoever is of zero interest to me  ;D Unless they can stop living their football lives with their eyes closed and their fingers in their ears, they don't have a voice worthy of hearing.

Yeah but, other than that...
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Offline Son of Spion

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11488 on: November 11, 2020, 12:19:15 am »
Oh I dunno, unless Man City fans will address that, everything else is sort of by the by as it where! Nothing that team does is relevent to how I watch football.  They are lottery winners, they are fake, they are cheats.  They really have no redeeming qualities.  Their fans’ attitude I guesss is out of sight out of mind, being as they are absolutely fine with their owners and the fact no bugger apart from Everton fans respect them. Maybe they can’t be blamed, I dunno. Them and their owners are just a bugbear of mine. But at the end of the day, it’s the premier leagues fault that they don’t seem to care who owns these clubs. The sale of Man City to Abu Dhabi should never have been allowed.

Edited to add - obvioulsy no problem with other people here wanting to discuss whatever with them! Just that what some random Abu Dhabi fan thinks of Aguero or whoever is of zero interest to me  ;D Unless they can stop living their football lives with their eyes closed and their fingers in their ears, they don't have a voice worthy of hearing.
I doubt you'd ever get an honest account from a current Abu Dhabi follower. Those that have stayed to follow the club formerly known as Manchester City are clearly ok with what their owners are all about or, at least, happily, willingly and blissfully ignorant about them. I think those who found it repugnant that these monsters have taken over what was their club will have long since binned them off.

What are left are the willfully ignorant and those who couldn't care less. You won't get an honest reply from such people. All you would get if they touched on the subject at all is a weak PR exercise and denial. The thing is, you cannot really defend the indefensible, so the vast majority would swerve the topic.

I've only ever known one City fan and the last I heard was that he binned them off after they were bought out. He used to be a massive fan too, and would get us tickets for Maine Road when we played them there. I suspect plenty of that old school fan will have dropped them too.

The new breed? Well I just can't talk football with them. I can't take them seriously at all. They are just jumped up lottery winners with a ridiculously self-aggrandising attitude and an horrifically large chip on their shoulders.

In a way, it's really sad, because success should be celebrated. Great play should be appreciated. But with that lot, you just can't respect any of it. You cannot take it seriously because it's fake, contrived and hasn't come through hard work. It's all a sick illusion really, and no trophies or records 'won' by them has any credibility whatsoever.

Edit: That's not so say that I have any issue whatsoever with others discussing anything they want with whoever they want, of course. 😊
« Last Edit: November 11, 2020, 12:22:51 am by Son of Spion* »
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Offline vivabobbygraham

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11489 on: November 11, 2020, 12:47:59 am »
Aguerro should be welcomed not ridiculed. It's very clear where we stand on the politics of it, theyr'e fucking dangerous both on and off the pitch. He comes in peace wants to talk football, where better place to come? Let him discuss his club, I'm interested. We're not fucking Evertonians fellah's and felines
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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11490 on: November 11, 2020, 12:53:21 am »
Aguerro should be welcomed not ridiculed. It's very clear where we stand on the politics of it, theyr'e fucking dangerous both on and off the pitch. He comes in peace wants to talk football, where better place to come? Let him discuss his club, I'm interested. We're not fucking Evertonians fellah's and felines
I can't say I've read all of his posts, but from what I have read he seems a decent fella. Certainly a world away from the loons on Blue Moon.
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Offline vivabobbygraham

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11491 on: November 11, 2020, 01:09:49 am »
I can't say I've read all of his posts, but from what I have read he seems a decent fella. Certainly a world away from the loons on Blue Moon.

My view too, as I have
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Offline SK8 Red

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11492 on: November 11, 2020, 07:00:46 am »
The pre 2008 fans are brainwashed. I work and socialise with a few. The Fergie years destroyed them and they had to take the dirty money and defend it. The bus welcome tipped them regarding their feelings for us and the booing of Sterling. They realised Klopp was spoiling their ambition to be a big club as in reality they're not. Everton are bigger along with Aston Villa, Newcastle and Leeds.

Offline keyop

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11493 on: November 11, 2020, 11:46:50 am »
Aguerro should be welcomed not ridiculed. It's very clear where we stand on the politics of it, theyr'e fucking dangerous both on and off the pitch. He comes in peace wants to talk football, where better place to come? Let him discuss his club, I'm interested. We're not fucking Evertonians fellah's and felines
I'm also interested in other fans views, and agree there's often a difference between the politics of the club and the fans - in the same way that many Utd fans hate the Glazers or Woodward (or both), but still support their team.

No-one should expect all their fans to down tools or not support the team or celebrate success - regardless of what they think of the owners, spending, or the overall culture. They're also entitled to celebrate trophies just like any other team.

I think its perfectly fine for us to simultaneously dislike the club and what it stands for, whilst also accepting that some of their fans will still go to the game and support their team, without being complicit in the Abu Dhabi regime or labelled as fake or whatever other names are thrown at them.

What's not acceptable is for City fans (or Chelsea/PSG fans) to complain about squad depth, or losing Kompany/Silva, or Laporte getting injured, or players they couldn't buy, or FFP, or fixture schedules, or anything that suggests a lack of fairness. I'm also sure that many are aware that their success has been bought and not earned, and if they don't recognise that, then they're best ignored.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2020, 11:50:36 am by keyop »
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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11494 on: November 11, 2020, 01:01:45 pm »
I doubt you'd ever get an honest account from a current Abu Dhabi follower. Those that have stayed to follow the club formerly known as Manchester City are clearly ok with what their owners are all about or, at least, happily, willingly and blissfully ignorant about them. I think those who found it repugnant that these monsters have taken over what was their club will have long since binned them off.

What are left are the willfully ignorant and those who couldn't care less. You won't get an honest reply from such people. All you would get if they touched on the subject at all is a weak PR exercise and denial. The thing is, you cannot really defend the indefensible, so the vast majority would swerve the topic.

I've only ever known one City fan and the last I heard was that he binned them off after they were bought out. He used to be a massive fan too, and would get us tickets for Maine Road when we played them there. I suspect plenty of that old school fan will have dropped them too.

The new breed? Well I just can't talk football with them. I can't take them seriously at all. They are just jumped up lottery winners with a ridiculously self-aggrandising attitude and an horrifically large chip on their shoulders.

In a way, it's really sad, because success should be celebrated. Great play should be appreciated. But with that lot, you just can't respect any of it. You cannot take it seriously because it's fake, contrived and hasn't come through hard work. It's all a sick illusion really, and no trophies or records 'won' by them has any credibility whatsoever.

Edit: That's not so say that I have any issue whatsoever with others discussing anything they want with whoever they want, of course. 😊
I'm not sure I fully empathize with your line of reasoning here, so maybe I've misunderstood your stance and if so it's certainly not on purpose. I have never bothered with this debate before, so what's covering new ground for me probably isn't the same for you. However.

We, as football fans, have no control -- essentially whatsoever -- over who owns the clubs. We can, when well organized and with legal rights on our side, affect the outcome to some extent such as with Hicks and Gillette, but it's limited to such an extent that it can be considered irrelevant. For example, the Qatar regime could have been the ones to buy Hicks and Gillette out. If an owner with limitless wealth buys the team you support, there's little you can do about it, organized but especially as an individual. I'm sure that you agree if not in detail then at least in principle.

So what you seem to consider the correct moral stance here is to downright stop following the team you support. As in entirely. Now, I find that odd, because I don't at all feel that I support John Henry and FSG by supporting LFC, they are not even secondary our third in what I consider myself a supporter of. Politically, I stand as far away from them as you could imagine. To support a team is not to condone its ownership, I don't feel at all conflicted in that and I struggle to see why I should. I was here long before they came here, and I'll hopefully be here long after they're gone. And it's completely our of my control. It's probably the same for many Manchester City fans.

Also, I think it's quite a big ask of any person to just completely resign as fan of a club, and all that it represents and entails, due to something that can happen overnight out of ones control. Because, again if I understand your stance correctly, you would stop following, and caring, about Liverpool overnight if our owners are bad enough? And furthermore, since you degrade so many Manchester City fans for not doing so, you surely expect the rest of us to do the same thing? Otherwise, your moral stance is circumstancial and not moral at all. Now, I think you're wrong, I don't believe the entire Liverpool fanbase would shut down the way you seem to argue is the moral thing to do.

Ultimately, I think what you miss in your stance is the definition of supporting a team, and how that can vary from one to another. You seem to, at least in City's case, have a very strict view, as in supporting one side of a club is supporting its entirety. However, there are other ways to view what supporting means and is, and far from all of them include condoning the ownership. The ownership that again is out of ones control as a football fan.

Obviously, there are plenty of Manchester City fans who then in turn do somewhat condone and defend Abu Dhabi, for which there is no excuse. But to ask of fans -- irrational, emotional, heavily invested football fans like ourselves -- to completely abandon a team and an institution so much broader and important than a temporary ownership is, to me anyway, not the moral high ground at all. It's dogmatic, and circumstancial to an extent that it's not entirely believable should the circumstances be different, or indeed opposite.

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11495 on: November 11, 2020, 01:43:27 pm »
snip

Thank you for posting this, I really enjoyed reading it.  I tend to read this thread and nod along in agreement when posters appear incredulous that anyone could support a team with such morally and ethically repugnant ownership.  Your post has opened my eyes to how partisan my position is. 

If Abu Dhabi had bought LFC from Hicks and Gillett, or from Moores for that matter, would I be able to bin off footy completely, or arbitrarily switch to support a new team?  The honest answer to that is no.  Could I have prevented this from happening? No again - the impact of fans on the cowboy's ownership was only effective because of the precarious financial position of Hicks and Gillett and, by extension, the club.  The financial strength of the AD regime would render such fan activism useless - who wouldn't lend money to such an oil rich nation? (not that they would ever need to borrow!)  There was plenty of clamour for DIC to take over the club, as I recall.

A hypothetical AD takeover would make me uncomfortable for sure, but I think I would swallow it and focus all my energies on supporting the team and manager, and not really engaging in critical thought of the ownership model.  What are the alternatives?  Football is to an extent political but it isn't politics - and passion for my club would override concerns about its ownership I think.

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11496 on: November 11, 2020, 03:25:24 pm »
I'm not sure I fully empathize with your line of reasoning here, so maybe I've misunderstood your stance and if so it's certainly not on purpose. I have never bothered with this debate before, so what's covering new ground for me probably isn't the same for you. However.

We, as football fans, have no control -- essentially whatsoever -- over who owns the clubs. We can, when well organized and with legal rights on our side, affect the outcome to some extent such as with Hicks and Gillette, but it's limited to such an extent that it can be considered irrelevant. For example, the Qatar regime could have been the ones to buy Hicks and Gillette out. If an owner with limitless wealth buys the team you support, there's little you can do about it, organized but especially as an individual. I'm sure that you agree if not in detail then at least in principle.

So what you seem to consider the correct moral stance here is to downright stop following the team you support. As in entirely. Now, I find that odd, because I don't at all feel that I support John Henry and FSG by supporting LFC, they are not even secondary our third in what I consider myself a supporter of. Politically, I stand as far away from them as you could imagine. To support a team is not to condone its ownership, I don't feel at all conflicted in that and I struggle to see why I should. I was here long before they came here, and I'll hopefully be here long after they're gone. And it's completely our of my control. It's probably the same for many Manchester City fans.

Also, I think it's quite a big ask of any person to just completely resign as fan of a club, and all that it represents and entails, due to something that can happen overnight out of ones control. Because, again if I understand your stance correctly, you would stop following, and caring, about Liverpool overnight if our owners are bad enough? And furthermore, since you degrade so many Manchester City fans for not doing so, you surely expect the rest of us to do the same thing? Otherwise, your moral stance is circumstancial and not moral at all. Now, I think you're wrong, I don't believe the entire Liverpool fanbase would shut down the way you seem to argue is the moral thing to do.

Ultimately, I think what you miss in your stance is the definition of supporting a team, and how that can vary from one to another. You seem to, at least in City's case, have a very strict view, as in supporting one side of a club is supporting its entirety. However, there are other ways to view what supporting means and is, and far from all of them include condoning the ownership. The ownership that again is out of ones control as a football fan.

Obviously, there are plenty of Manchester City fans who then in turn do somewhat condone and defend Abu Dhabi, for which there is no excuse. But to ask of fans -- irrational, emotional, heavily invested football fans like ourselves -- to completely abandon a team and an institution so much broader and important than a temporary ownership is, to me anyway, not the moral high ground at all. It's dogmatic, and circumstancial to an extent that it's not entirely believable should the circumstances be different, or indeed opposite.

This is spot on, and I doubt I'm articulate enough to explain it better.

I try to seperate the club from the men owning it. That might be the wrong way to do it and I will not disagree. However there is nothing about how the club are run at the moment that shares the values that the Abu Dhabi regime and culture does. As far as I'm concerned, they have been very good owners for us on and off the pich, not just for sporting succes but also for the willingness to put money into the community. Doesn't mean I will ever agree with their personal values, their culture or their methods

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11497 on: November 11, 2020, 07:39:01 pm »
I'm not sure I fully empathize with your line of reasoning here, so maybe I've misunderstood your stance and if so it's certainly not on purpose. I have never bothered with this debate before, so what's covering new ground for me probably isn't the same for you. However.

We, as football fans, have no control -- essentially whatsoever -- over who owns the clubs. We can, when well organized and with legal rights on our side, affect the outcome to some extent such as with Hicks and Gillette, but it's limited to such an extent that it can be considered irrelevant. For example, the Qatar regime could have been the ones to buy Hicks and Gillette out. If an owner with limitless wealth buys the team you support, there's little you can do about it, organized but especially as an individual. I'm sure that you agree if not in detail then at least in principle.

So what you seem to consider the correct moral stance here is to downright stop following the team you support. As in entirely. Now, I find that odd, because I don't at all feel that I support John Henry and FSG by supporting LFC, they are not even secondary our third in what I consider myself a supporter of. Politically, I stand as far away from them as you could imagine. To support a team is not to condone its ownership, I don't feel at all conflicted in that and I struggle to see why I should. I was here long before they came here, and I'll hopefully be here long after they're gone. And it's completely our of my control. It's probably the same for many Manchester City fans.

Also, I think it's quite a big ask of any person to just completely resign as fan of a club, and all that it represents and entails, due to something that can happen overnight out of ones control. Because, again if I understand your stance correctly, you would stop following, and caring, about Liverpool overnight if our owners are bad enough? And furthermore, since you degrade so many Manchester City fans for not doing so, you surely expect the rest of us to do the same thing? Otherwise, your moral stance is circumstancial and not moral at all. Now, I think you're wrong, I don't believe the entire Liverpool fanbase would shut down the way you seem to argue is the moral thing to do.

Ultimately, I think what you miss in your stance is the definition of supporting a team, and how that can vary from one to another. You seem to, at least in City's case, have a very strict view, as in supporting one side of a club is supporting its entirety. However, there are other ways to view what supporting means and is, and far from all of them include condoning the ownership. The ownership that again is out of ones control as a football fan.

Obviously, there are plenty of Manchester City fans who then in turn do somewhat condone and defend Abu Dhabi, for which there is no excuse. But to ask of fans -- irrational, emotional, heavily invested football fans like ourselves -- to completely abandon a team and an institution so much broader and important than a temporary ownership is, to me anyway, not the moral high ground at all. It's dogmatic, and circumstancial to an extent that it's not entirely believable should the circumstances be different, or indeed opposite.
I'm not home, and only on my phone's, so a proper in-depth reply tonight is out unfortunately. I think my comments echo the feeling of an awful lot of people on here and in the wider football world, so I'm far from on this.

Of course, none of us have much influence over who owns us. Also, no one rich enough to own a Premier League football club these days is squeaky clean either. Thing is, I have my own personal line that, if crossed, I walk away. Would I stop caring about the LFC I've always known? Of course not. But would I walk away completely if we had been taken over as a sports wash by the likes of Abu Dhabi? Absolutely. There is simply no condoning it, so I'd want no part in it.

We all have our limits. Mine may well differ from those of others. Some would walk away long before I would. Some long after I would. Some never at all. It depends on our personal outlooks on life really.

I have old school mates who followed us everywhere, but they binned it off when football was stolen from the working class, repackaged and sold back to us at a premium. Again, we all have our limits. Once crossed, we move onto other things in life, because what was, is no more.

I draw the line at us becoming an Abu Dhabi, a PSG and the like.

Although it may sound like it, I'm not actually trying to claim any moral high ground as such. I leave that to Everton fans. I have more than enough personal flaws and I'm far from perfect. It's just that on this particular topic, the likes of Abu Dhabi and those who revel in being associated with them and their money just repulse me.

People like Donald Trump repulse me too, and he was followers in the multi millions. By that, I mean that people have to decide where to draw their own lines in life. Those lines will be in different ages depending on who you are and how you view life. Wherever those lines are, plenty will agree, and plenty won't.

For me, I don't think Abu Dhabi are that good for the people of their country, and their sports wash is certainly not good for football in this country. What they are getting away with is a travesty to me. Again though, others will disagree.

What genuinely grates on me about those who have stayed with the sports wash is the fact they tend to revel in it. They not only condone it, they come up with all manner of mental gymnastics to justify it too. For me, it's extremely difficult to have any respect for that at all. If they named it for what it is and were honest about it, I could at least have some respect for the honesty.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2020, 07:49:53 pm by Son of Spion* »
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Offline ScubaSteve

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11498 on: November 11, 2020, 07:53:09 pm »
Ake just pulled up..another injury

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11499 on: November 11, 2020, 07:55:49 pm »
Ake just pulled up..another injury

Quelle surprise, those running the game are lunatics.  ::)
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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11500 on: November 11, 2020, 08:07:37 pm »
Hamstring injury, it seems. Insane how they're playing fucking friendlies on top of the useless Nations League.
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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11501 on: November 11, 2020, 08:36:02 pm »
I'm not home, and only on my phone's, so a proper in-depth reply tonight is out unfortunately. I think my comments echo the feeling of an awful lot of people on here and in the wider football world, so I'm far from on this.

Of course, none of us have much influence over who owns us. Also, no one rich enough to own a Premier League football club these days is squeaky clean either. Thing is, I have my own personal line that, if crossed, I walk away. Would I stop caring about the LFC I've always known? Of course not. But would I walk away completely if we had been taken over as a sports wash by the likes of Abu Dhabi? Absolutely. There is simply no condoning it, so I'd want no part in it.

We all have our limits. Mine may well differ from those of others. Some would walk away long before I would. Some long after I would. Some never at all. It depends on our personal outlooks on life really.

I have old school mates who followed us everywhere, but they binned it off when football was stolen from the working class, repackaged and sold back to us at a premium. Again, we all have our limits. Once crossed, we move onto other things in life, because what was, is no more.

I draw the line at us becoming an Abu Dhabi, a PSG and the like.

Although it may sound like it, I'm not actually trying to claim any moral high ground as such. I leave that to Everton fans. I have more than enough personal flaws and I'm far from perfect. It's just that on this particular topic, the likes of Abu Dhabi and those who revel in being associated with them and their money just repulse me.

People like Donald Trump repulse me too, and he was followers in the multi millions. By that, I mean that people have to decide where to draw their own lines in life. Those lines will be in different ages depending on who you are and how you view life. Wherever those lines are, plenty will agree, and plenty won't.

For me, I don't think Abu Dhabi are that good for the people of their country, and their sports wash is certainly not good for football in this country. What they are getting away with is a travesty to me. Again though, others will disagree.

What genuinely grates on me about those who have stayed with the sports wash is the fact they tend to revel in it. They not only condone it, they come up with all manner of mental gymnastics to justify it too. For me, it's extremely difficult to have any respect for that at all. If they named it for what it is and were honest about it, I could at least have some respect for the honesty.
It hasn't happened to us though - it's happened to City, and unless you've been in their shoes it's a little unfair to tarnish the whole fanbase as if they're all somehow complicit.

Their inherited wealth is relatively recent, so there's a good chance most of their fans were around long before the oil flowed into town.
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Offline Aguero9320

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11502 on: November 11, 2020, 08:45:17 pm »
Hamstring injury, it seems. Insane how they're playing fucking friendlies on top of the useless Nations League.
Its crazy, Gomez for you as well. Has always been the case, but in the current schedule its even more of a joke

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11503 on: November 11, 2020, 08:50:00 pm »
I do hope Cardigan Baldy and Kloppo the Fistpump team up again to tell bastards organising these games to go buy a brain.
Absolute shitshow.

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11504 on: November 11, 2020, 08:59:34 pm »
Pep gave them so stats the other week staying over 50% of players are out with muscle injuries this season he will have spoke to his medical staff who would have briefed him.

He is right and he has been proven to be even more as Shaw, Ake are added to the list that I know of and more to follow.

If muscle injuries aren’t bad enough you have the dreaded Covid tests which are even worse when players are on international duty.

The season is a joke if we are honest and there is a real possibility the best team won’t win the league which imo is us/City.

If you have a team with hardly any internationals or you don’t care about Europe then if you are there around Christmas it is on I wasn’t worried about Leicester last year although a good side I always looked at City as I know they can win 12-14 on the spin but this season is and feels different smaller clubs will never have a better chance.

Offline Aguero9320

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11505 on: November 11, 2020, 09:15:26 pm »
Pep gave them so stats the other week staying over 50% of players are out with muscle injuries this season he will have spoke to his medical staff who would have briefed him.

He is right and he has been proven to be even more as Shaw, Ake are added to the list that I know of and more to follow.

If muscle injuries aren’t bad enough you have the dreaded Covid tests which are even worse when players are on international duty.

The season is a joke if we are honest and there is a real possibility the best team won’t win the league which imo is us/City.

If you have a team with hardly any internationals or you don’t care about Europe then if you are there around Christmas it is on I wasn’t worried about Leicester last year although a good side I always looked at City as I know they can win 12-14 on the spin but this season is and feels different smaller clubs will never have a better chance.

Hopefully Leicester or Villa if its someone outside the top 2(which this league has become)
Would be hilarious if Leicester won it twice before United managed to win it again.
Personally I think if Tottenham is ever going to do it its this year, my money is on them

Offline Son of Spion

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11506 on: November 11, 2020, 09:35:23 pm »
It hasn't happened to us though - it's happened to City, and unless you've been in their shoes it's a little unfair to tarnish the whole fanbase as if they're all somehow complicit.

Their inherited wealth is relatively recent, so there's a good chance most of their fans were around long before the oil flowed into town.
I think we are all entitled to our opinions.

People have to decide for themselves where their limits lie. I'm not sitting on the fence just incase we get bought out by a horror show of a regime. I'll call it out now, and if it happens to us I'll stand by my principles and walk away, rather than suddenly find convenient excuses to stick around.

Each to their own, of course, but I can't defend Abu Dhabi, their regime, their sports wash or their blatant cheating of the game we love. They are incredibly bad for the game and I'm actually amazed we have some here who are defending them in any way at all.

Suggesting that a person wouldn't really know how they'd react simply because it was them bought out and not us doesn't cut it for me. That's a bit like saying your principles are for sale at the right price. You don't have to actually walk in the shoes of another to see that they are not anything like your size and would be deeply uncomfortable.
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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11507 on: November 11, 2020, 09:41:07 pm »
It hasn't happened to us though - it's happened to City, and unless you've been in their shoes it's a little unfair to tarnish the whole fanbase as if they're all somehow complicit.

Their inherited wealth is relatively recent, so there's a good chance most of their fans were around long before the oil flowed into town.



Safe to say that most match going City fans are all part of one big gang of c*nts.
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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11508 on: November 11, 2020, 10:06:23 pm »
Long time reader but first time poster. I was compelled to write in after seeing a couple of people on here defending a fan's right to support a club no matter what the owners were involved in. It got me thinking about what I would do if Liverpool had been taken over by the likes of the Al Nahyans. I really don't think I'd be comfortable with it and here's why.....

The Al Nahyans are openly homophobic, still treating homosexuality as a crime. So would the City fan on here still support the club if an openly racist person took over the club, say someone from a neo-nazi background? I don't think you would, you wouldn't stand for it. So why is it okay to have owners who are homophobic? I think by sitting back and not making enough of a stand, or any stand at all as far I'm aware, City fans are complicit in teaching the next generation of football fans that it's okay to tolerate these abhorrent beliefs. 

City fans accepting the Al Nayhans has set the game back years, it makes a mockery of things like the rainbow lace campaign.

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11509 on: November 11, 2020, 10:11:00 pm »
sorry, no time to read everything right now, but picking up on someone claiming I (or wheover it is that can't be arsed with Abu Dhabi and many of their fans) think they should stop supporting the club - could not be further from the truth.

It’s the silence, or if they can’t get away with that - the constant whataboutery that is utterly teadious. And even worse - the fact that so many of them have fallen in line with their owners - and do their bidding for them online that is what is really really shit - and for that they need to be taken to task (and no, not saying this bloke here does that, but hey, why should it be sweetness and light for an opposing fan, it wouldn’t be for us if it was the other way round - it’s possoble to ask pertinent questions of those who are polite too!

NOTHING to stop them being proactive, nothing to stop them being honest and open. Nothing to stop them showing their anger or displeasure at their owners stance on LGBT rights or on womens rights etc.  Fans of Bayern Munich have no problem with doing that - and they still carry on supporting and loving their club. You can be a fan, but don’t be a silent hypocrite and pretend everything is absolutely ok with the team you support being owned by absolute scumbags.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2020, 10:14:15 pm by Dim Glas »

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11510 on: November 11, 2020, 10:39:35 pm »
Long time reader but first time poster. I was compelled to write in after seeing a couple of people on here defending a fan's right to support a club no matter what the owners were involved in. It got me thinking about what I would do if Liverpool had been taken over by the likes of the Al Nahyans. I really don't think I'd be comfortable with it and here's why.....

The Al Nahyans are openly homophobic, still treating homosexuality as a crime. So would the City fan on here still support the club if an openly racist person took over the club, say someone from a neo-nazi background? I don't think you would, you wouldn't stand for it. So why is it okay to have owners who are homophobic? I think by sitting back and not making enough of a stand, or any stand at all as far I'm aware, City fans are complicit in teaching the next generation of football fans that it's okay to tolerate these abhorrent beliefs. 

City fans accepting the Al Nayhans has set the game back years, it makes a mockery of things like the rainbow lace campaign.

Facts are, an incredible number of people will sacrifice their principles and turn a blind eye if the payoff for doing so is attractive enough. In the case of City, it's perfectly clear that the payoff certainly is attractive enough to most who follow them, otherwise they'd pipe up and say something. Not only do they not voice their concerns, they make endless excuses for their owners. Basically, I think it's a case of out of sight, out of mind. They don't really seem to care what Abu Dhabi do in their country, and it's clear they relish their cheating of our sport in this country too.

Personally, I find the ''separating the owner from the club" thing as a cop-out. It just lets people sit on the fence, take the payoff and ignore everything else. That's between people and their own conscience though.

They just don't want to bite the hand that provides the lottery money. If they got off the fence and opened their eyes they'd risk losing the payoff of easy money.

The fact that Abu Dhabi may have pumped a lot of money into a deprived area is irrelevant to me really. It's such a weak argument in favour of them. The fanbase are the wife of the gangster. Enjoying the dirty cash hubby brings home, but turning a blind eye to the fact the drugs he's selling kill people and wreck communities. They say nothing because of the payoff.

People with mega money think everyone can be bought. In many cases, they are correct. City fans would gain a little more respect if they were just honest and admitted that they turn a blind eye because the payoff for doing so is so attractive.
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Offline keyop

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11511 on: November 11, 2020, 11:19:04 pm »
I think we are all entitled to our opinions.

People have to decide for themselves where their limits lie. I'm not sitting on the fence just incase we get bought out by a horror show of a regime. I'll call it out now, and if it happens to us I'll stand by my principles and walk away, rather than suddenly find convenient excuses to stick around.

Each to their own, of course, but I can't defend Abu Dhabi, their regime, their sports wash or their blatant cheating of the game we love. They are incredibly bad for the game and I'm actually amazed we have some here who are defending them in any way at all.

Suggesting that a person wouldn't really know how they'd react simply because it was them bought out and not us doesn't cut it for me. That's a bit like saying your principles are for sale at the right price. You don't have to actually walk in the shoes of another to see that they are not anything like your size and would be deeply uncomfortable.
Eh?

I'm not asking you to defend Abu Dhabi or sit on the fence. I'm saying that fans are entitled to continue supporting a club that they've followed long before a crooked or wealthy owner takes them over.

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11512 on: November 12, 2020, 12:02:27 am »
Eh?

I'm not asking you to defend Abu Dhabi or sit on the fence. I'm saying that fans are entitled to continue supporting a club that they've followed long before a crooked or wealthy owner takes them over.
And I've said all along that individuals can do whatever they see fit. I'm also saying that in their position, I couldn't sit on the fence because it suits me to do so and I couldn't defend them (Abu Dhabi) either. I know you aren't asking me to do that. But what I'm saying is that is exactly what their fans are doing. That's also up to them, but I wish they were at least honest about it.

If they had taken over at Anfield, I'd have walked away. Absolutely 100%, no question. That's me though. Others would do the same. Many wouldn't. We all have to decide where we draw our lines in life.


I'm aware I'm not articulating myself as well as I'd like on this. I hate quick phone replies, but it is what it is.

You were talking about walking in their shoes. I was saying that if I were in their shoes I could still not defend the owners and I couldn't just sit on the fence either.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2020, 12:04:43 am by Son of Spion* »
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11513 on: November 12, 2020, 12:19:21 am »
And I've said all along that individuals can do whatever they see fit. I'm also saying that in their position, I couldn't sit on the fence because it suits me to do so and I couldn't defend them (Abu Dhabi) either. I know you aren't asking me to do that. But what I'm saying is that is exactly what their fans are doing. That's also up to them, but I wish they were at least honest about it.

If they had taken over at Anfield, I'd have walked away. Absolutely 100%, no question. That's me though. Others would do the same. Many wouldn't. We all have to decide where we draw our lines in life.


I'm aware I'm not articulating myself as well as I'd like on this. I hate quick phone replies, but it is what it is.

You were talking about walking in their shoes. I was saying that if I were in their shoes I could still not defend the owners and I couldn't just sit on the fence either.

At the very least, I would not actively defend them as many of the City support actively excuse their owners' many misdeeds. As a comparison, Suarez crossed the line for me and, while I enjoyed his football, I could not support him as a man, and after he left, I despised him. Man City's owners and management have done far worse things than Suarez.
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Offline Bucko - Dubai

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11514 on: November 12, 2020, 06:37:25 am »
Think what makes it sad from their supporters point of view is that I honestly don't believe they are enjoying it that much.

The unbelievable never ending vitriol to every club and organising body doesn't suggest they are happy being at the top, and the desperation to be winners of everything is too much, especially when they think they deserve more recognition
The below rant from Blueloon pretty much highlights that, god forbid another team could be better than them

Quote
So let's get this straight.. after 2 years none stop running, the dippers are dropping like flies now..

Now, I seem to remember that for our team to be considered a great team, we were smugly informed by the ****'s in the media that we'd have to win back to back Premier Leagues..

A feat we accomplished with style, class, fairness and humility.

It was an achievement that hadn't been matched in the PL by any title winning team for over a decade if I recall correctly..

However this phenomenal achievement was ultimately dismissed by all and sundry pretty much immediately..!

Now, fast forward to the present, the dippers came first in a cut and shut season that meant little, even more so when you consider the unhealthy assistance they were afforded by VAR..

Btw, the VAR assistance must not be forgotten or lost in the media w*nkfest that followed and is still prevalent today..

They didn't have a decision go against them until after Christmas..

Now regarding injuries, i'm sure in our back to back title winning seasons we had our fair share..

However, like me you'll probably won't be able to recall them to be honest as at the time they didn't make the national daily rolling news or were mentioned by the Pope in his Sunday prayers..

I see the dippers are now whinging like fcuk because they have a few injuries..

What I'd say to bingo is 'shut the fcuk up and show us all what a brilliant manager the media constantly keep telling everyone you are and work out a fkin solution'..

For me, if they don't win the title again this season, that'll be 2 covid titles on the trot btw, then in my book they are to be filed with Blackburn and Leicester.

However, to be fair to the latter 2 teams, at least they won their title in a season with no VAR assistance or a 3 month rest 2/3rds into the season, allowing them to regroup..

The dippers therefore are looking more and more like a bit of a flash in the pan, a one hit wonder, manufactured winners, not all that without outside assistance and a world wide pandemic, a bit fortunate really.. All of which have a ring of truthness about them you could quite easily say..

To sum up, basically a bunch of moaning, whinging, excuse making, cheating, diving ****'s who got lucky and copped for all the help and assistance a team could wish for to keep them relevant..!

Offline RyanBabel19

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11515 on: November 12, 2020, 09:27:29 am »
Cant even find words for the sheer irony of us being called 'manufactured winners' by a City fan  :lmao

And just to be clear... our winning the title means little because VAR amd covid... but we MUST win it again, despite... VAR... and covid... at which point we'll be told it means little again... because VAR... and covid

:lmao :lmao :lmao

They really have mastered the art of 'but we're the best because...'
Someone wins the charity shield and it's meaningless but if they win it, it's included in all their trophy counting and bragging. Everyone else is divers despite the fact week in week out they watch Sterling go to ground wincing regardless of if he's been touched.

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11516 on: November 12, 2020, 09:32:06 am »
^^^ not arsed reading that. Not interested in having to bleach my eyeballs afterwards. Tis grand scale codswallop.
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Offline Crosby Nick

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11517 on: November 12, 2020, 09:40:10 am »
I read it because I need a laugh.

COVID assistance to win the league last year. Raised a chuckle.

Didn’t get a VAR decision go against us until after Christmas - Bobby’s armpit says hello. The Origi foul at OT. They went iminnoticed because we had the resolve to put them behind us and get results anyway.

There’s more shite in there obviously. And I know you all know this. I’m just putting off work!

The best bit by the way is the ‘if they win it again it’s 2 Covid titles in a row, if they don’t win it they’re a flash in the pan’ argument. Much like Yaya he wants to have his cake and eat it with that one.

Offline MJD-L4

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11518 on: November 12, 2020, 10:00:34 am »
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However, to be fair to the latter 2 teams, at least they won their title in a season with no VAR assistance or a 3 month rest 2/3rds into the season, allowing them to regroup..

Why do all these fucking morons talk about the break last season as if we were the only club to not play for 3 months? Was every other club still playing 2 matches every week and we just didn't notice?

If this whopper was actually watching last season they'd have seen that we were actually a bit shit after the restart costing us a few records so it didn't really do us any favours. That's also ignoring the fact that we'd pretty much won the fucking thing before anyone had even heard of Covid.

Nice to see they're still on the VAR train despite there being plenty of research into who benefitted the most/least last season.

Some of the horrific stuff they've been saying about Joe after yesterday's news is deplorable too.

They're scummy as fuck off the pitch as well as on it.

City fans are the worst of the worst these days.

Offline Son of Spion

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Re: Man City - the Lisbon Lyons
« Reply #11519 on: November 12, 2020, 10:06:41 am »
I gave that rant a go until he said they won back to back titles with "style, class, fairness and humility."
 :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

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