Topic: Terrorism in the UK - The Wider Context

[Alan_X]

Anyone seen the cartoon in the Mail today ?

No, I don't read the Daily Mail. Do you?

[Claire.]

How long do people think the Election campaign will be suspended for?

I'm a very cynical when it comes to this government the longer it goes on the longer I think its the Tories trying to gerrymander the result. 

Usually it a case of the government saying we must not let them win and life should get back to normal quickly but not this time.

Are you for real?

[oldfordie]

No of course if one knows something you report it to the police.  However I am talking about being offered a job to work for them as some kind of informer, that's what has been suggested and the people I know wouldn't do that simply as it is seen as spying.

Offered a job to inform on them or just keep their eyes and ears open and let us know if you have any suspicions. maybe it's the choice of words their using that's causing the difference of opinion.
 We both agree that if the police are asking them to let them know if they see or hear anything suspicious then it's not snitching. your saying they want them to inform on them which would mean  going far further, they are being asked to gain their confidence to gain as much information as possible.
I think it's far more likely the police are asking the vast majority of people to keep their eyes and ears open rather than gain to gain the confidence of a possible extremist to give the security forces info.am sure it does happen though.

.

[lobsterboy]

Damn right. As a mixed race person I am very wary of the police as I don't trust them.

As a Muslim I certainly don't trust them. The ridiculous ideas like Muslims spying on each other were just stupid.

What do people think happens in mosques? I swear some people actually think people plot terroism in mosques.

I've had friends mention to me how the security services have approached them asking them to work for them and be some kind of snitch.

It's not up to us to police. That's not our job.

As for the wider context the UK doesn't need to get involved in conflicts that have nothing to do with them.

You consider stopping nutters blowing up little kids as "snitching" or not your responsibility?
Nice one pal. Stay classy.

[redmark]

There's some utterly rancid stuff in the Quran, its not hard to find justification for attacks like this in there.

And the old testament can be read to justify genocide and mass rape. Judaism and Christianity have (on the whole) done a better job in recognising that not everything written 2,000 years ago should be taken literally (if it ever could be).

[B0151?]

Usually it a case of the government saying we must not let them win and life should get back to normal quickly but not this time.

Campaigning for the EU ref was paused for 2 days after Jo Cox and that was without the possibility of an ongoing threat

No doubt there was a minority of pro Brexit idiots who were saying things like what you're saying now about that...

[west_london_red]

Damn right. As a mixed race person I am very wary of the police as I don't trust them.

As a Muslim I certainly don't trust them. The ridiculous ideas like Muslims spying on each other were just stupid.

What do people think happens in mosques? I swear some people actually think people plot terroism in mosques.

I've had friends mention to me how the security services have approached them asking them to work for them and be some kind of snitch.

It's not up to us to police. That's not our job.

As for the wider context the UK doesn't need to get involved in conflicts that have nothing to do with them.

So by that rationale if I see some nasty piece of shit skinhead beating up an Old Muslim guy its ok to walk past and not call the Old Bill because I'd be some kind of snitch and its ok for me not to stop him because its not my job?

[The Gulleysucker]

Please Trada, try and engage your critical faculties a bit before simply regurgutating verbatum what you are reading on twitter or wherever it is you are getting your ideas and information from.

Think, and really think hard, and then pause and think once again before you hit that enter key and simply post this sort of stuff up, and ask yourself how true or reliable is this stuff (just like your post last night that I questioned) and who gains from spreading it around?

If you don't, you're possibly going to get yourself into some serious trouble one day. During the 2nd WW, people would be arrested and jailed for spreading false rumours and stories.

Stick to the verifiable facts and truth, and from reputable sources, and not guff that some attention seeking nomark wet lipped shit whisk has posted on twitter or facebook.

[Jake]

I've had friends mention to me how the security services have approached them asking them to work for them and be some kind of snitch.

It's not up to us to police. That's not our job.

Wow.

So the police asked members of the community to help them stamp out radicalisation, and your response is "no, that's snitching" "not my job mate".

I hope I misread your post.

[Purple Red]

No of course if one knows something you report it to the police.  However I am talking about being offered a job to work for them as some kind of informer, that's what has been suggested and the people I know wouldn't do that simply as it is seen as spying.

Some of the bravest actors in the Irish troubles were police informers. It's ugly, it's dirty - but it saves lives. No innocent person has anything to be afraid of from police intelligence gathering.

[J_Kopite]

No of course if one knows something you report it to the police.  However I am talking about being offered a job to work for them as some kind of informer, that's what has been suggested and the people I know wouldn't do that simply as it is seen as spying.

Where in London are you from if I may ask?

[Yorkykopite]

Some of the bravest actors in the Irish troubles were police informers. It's ugly, it's dirty - but it saves lives.

My understanding is that increasing numbers of Muslims are beginning to understand this now. We have to hope that Puroreso Kid's attitude is not typical of the Muslim community because if it is we are all in for a tough time.

The record shows that the hateful ideas of Islamism are often incubated in mosques and Koranic study groups. That doesn't mean that all the faithful share their views, but it's undeniable that the poison has been able to spread relatively freely because, in the past, not enough Muslims have either been watchful enough or concerned enough to stem the flow. This latest atrocity was committed by a kid who had recently - according to the Guardian report - been seen and heard chanting religious verses very loudly in the streets. That is not normal behaviour in this country. In medieval times, perhaps, when the land was crawling with religious penitents, but not now. Now it is the certain sign of a slightly unhinged mind. One would hope that the police were informed so that they could keep an eye on him and his friends. If this is 'snitching', so be it. 

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

So by that rationale if I see some nasty piece of shit skinhead beating up an Old Muslim guy its ok to walk past and not call the Old Bill because I'd be some kind of snitch and its ok for me not to stop him because its not my job?

There is a pretty clear difference between a one off police call as per your example and constant spywork and its attendant risks. His post about 'working for the police' was pointing at a long term thing rather than just a one off.

You're asking regular people to go above and beyond, put their life and the lives of those close to them at high risk constantly. Now if someone does that, respect, but I don't think less of anyone who refuses to either.

[stewil007]

This latest atrocity was committed by a kid who had recently - according to the Guardian report - been seen and heard chanting religious verses very loudly in the streets. That is not normal behaviour in this country.

Just on that bit, I have seen plenty of Christian types citing religious text in city centres down the years.

I just think they're a bit mad (bonkers) and don't think of dobbing them in to the bizzies

[J_Kopite]

Just on that bit, I have seen plenty of Christian types citing religious text in city centres down the years.

I just think they're a bit mad (bonkers) and don't think of dobbing them in to the bizzies

Presumably because you don't think they're going to blow up shit...

[west_london_red]

Some of the bravest actors in the Irish troubles were police informers. It's ugly, it's dirty - but it saves lives. No innocent person has anything to be afraid of from police intelligence gathering.

Keep in mind though at least some of the informer during the Troubles were blackmailed into becoming informers by the authorities - they weren't all necessarily doing it to save lives.

[Purple Red]

Keep in mind though at least some of the informer during the Troubles were blackmailed into becoming informers by the authorities - they weren't all necessarily doing it to save lives.

You run the risk of being blackmailed into being an informer if you want to play toy soldiers and associate with terrorists. But yes, you're absolutely right and it was effective.

[Yorkykopite]

Just on that bit, I have seen plenty of Christian types citing religious text in city centres down the years.

I just think they're a bit mad (bonkers) and don't think of dobbing them in to the bizzies

I hadn't thought of that and it's a fair point.

But is this fair too? If this country suddenly started suffering a spate of Christian terrorist attacks, committed by fundamentalist Christians who unfailingly chanted 'God is Merciful' before pulling the chords on their suicide packs, might you think a bit differently about the 'bonkers' Christian guy chanting from Revelations in the street? Isn't it better to be on the safe side?

[Jake]

Anyone who tries to push their religion on anyone in the street can fuck right off. It's the root of all evil and in a few hundred years when it's been wiped out the earth will be a utopia.

[SP]

Anyone who tries to push their religion on anyone in the street can fuck right off. It's the root of all evil and in a few hundred years when it's been wiped out the earth will be a utopia.

Yet I would not want to live in a society that did not afford people the freedom to do that...

[B0151?]

The thing that I would take issue with is the 'It's not up to us to police. That's not our job. '

That is part of their job though? To try and have much intelligence as possible. Having ears in communities is part of that I'm afraid. Much more preferable to the type of surveillance you hear your Trumps and so on proposing

[puroresu_kid]

So by that rationale if I see some nasty piece of shit skinhead beating up an Old Muslim guy its ok to walk past and not call the Old Bill because I'd be some kind of snitch and its ok for me not to stop him because its not my job?

Well the difference being reporting a crime you see as a civilian is totally different to be working for the security services in secret on some pro rata basis with financial rewards which can result in people doing whatever to make some money.

I never said one shouldn't report a crime or the potential crime. What I wont advocate however is us being told to eavesdrop on conversations or even worse report anything and everything no matter how ambiguous it may be.

We have already seen teachers complain that they are being forced into the role of "front-line storm trooper" to spy on pupils as part of the Prevent strategy. Now is that a teachers job?  I don't see it is.

Not forgetting strategies like this only sees a focus on those based upon there religion which profiling.

Look at this for example of how absurd the counter extremism prevent policy has become

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/mar/11/nursery-radicalisation-fears-boys-cucumber-drawing-cooker-bomb

Staff at a nursery school threatened to refer a four-year-old boy to a de-radicalisation programme after he drew pictures which they thought showed his father making a “cooker bomb”, according to the child’s mother.


The child’s drawing actually depicted his father cutting a cucumber with a knife, his mother says, but staff misheard his explanation and thought it referred to a type of improvised explosive device.

Now do I blame the staff, probably not as they are being told to report what they feel could be a sign of extremism of a muslim no matter how stupid it is but again who determines what this is?  Where does it stop? 

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/sep/22/school-questioned-muslim-pupil-about-isis-after-discussion-on-eco-activism

The parents of the 14-year-old are taking legal action after the boy said he was left “scared and nervous” by his experience with school officials in north London, and was left reluctant to join in class discussions for fear of being suspected of extremism.


The incident gives an insight into how schools and teachers are dealing with the pressures of the government’s new anti-extremism initiatives amid mounting concern about British youngsters being lured by Isis propaganda.

 
According to court documents, the boy was in a French class at the Central Foundation school in May 2015 and took part in a discussion, conducted mostly in French, about the environment. The teacher and pupils were said to have discussed those who use violence to protect the planet.

The teenager mentioned that some people use the term “ecoterrorist” to describe those who take action such as spiking trees with nails to prevent chainsaws from chopping them down.

A few days later he was pulled out of class and taken to an “inclusion centre” elsewhere in the school. During this meeting the schoolboy said one adult sat behind him, and another in front of him, whom he had not seen before. That person was a child protection officer, the Guardian has learned, who had been called in to establish if concerns about terrorism were legitimate.

The boy who wishes not to be named, told the Guardian: “I didn’t know what was going on. They said there had been safety concerns raised. If you are taken out of French class and asked about Isis, it is quite scary. My heart skipped a beat.”

He said he was baffled how mentioning the phrases “L’ecoterrorisme”, which he had learned from an earlier session of the school debating society, led to him being asked whether he supported Isis.

The boy and his parents say he was asked if he was “affiliated” with Isis. The school said he was asked if he had heard of the terrorist group, according to legal papers filed by his mother. The boy’s mother said her son came home from school “visibly distressed”.

This is the kind of fear and suspicion we could do without.

[Jake]

Yet I would not want to live in a society that did not afford people the freedom to do that...

It's a difficult one. The jehovas handing out watchtower or the Muslims at the stall giving out free Korans aren't hurting anyone, but I find myself taking an instant dislike to them trying to get others to believe in their brand of the sky fairy.

I hate religion as a whole (although I recognise that some good comes from different elements of some religions) I hope that doesn't make me a bigot of some kind.

[Andy82lfc]

Anyone who tries to push their religion on anyone in the street can fuck right off. It's the root of all evil and in a few hundred years when it's been wiped out the earth will be a utopia.

Do we get a list of things we can and can't do in this utopia, or is it screamed at us on arrival? So far I see judgement, hatred and ignorance is in. 

[J_Kopite]

It's a difficult one. The jehovas handing out watchtower or the Muslims at the stall giving out free Korans aren't hurting anyone, but I find myself taking an instant dislike to them trying to get others to believe in their brand of the sky fairy.

I hate religion. I hope that doesn't make me a bigot of some kind.

I don't see how you're a bigot if you hate ideas and not people, so I'm sure you're safe mate. Otherwise I'm a bigot too

[Red-Soldier]

Damn right. As a mixed race person I am very wary of the police as I don't trust them.

As a Muslim I certainly don't trust them. The ridiculous ideas like Muslims spying on each other were just stupid.

What do people think happens in mosques? I swear some people actually think people plot terroism in mosques.

I've had friends mention to me how the security services have approached them asking them to work for them and be some kind of snitch.

It's not up to us to police. That's not our job.

As for the wider context the UK doesn't need to get involved in conflicts that have nothing to do with them.

WTF   

Not interested in helping people live in a safer and more tolerant society then.

[Cliff Bastin]

The guy was born in the country and betrayed his own country. He should be looked at as a scumbag traitor and nothing more. But I have to say talk of 'snitching' is laughable. I'd snitch on hundreds of people if I had a suspicion or knowing they held dangerous extremist views such as this guy. Maybe if someone had snitched on this idiot a lot of people would be alive today.

Also the election really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. A girl has just lost both her parents and will have to be orphaned. A bit of perspective on this.

[The Gulleysucker]

The JW's are ok'ish, I often have a civilised chat to them when they turn up on our doorstep, not that they could ever teach a lapsed Catholic turned Atheist anything. I sometimes end up politely pointing out some of their errors...They must enjoy it as a challenge as they keep turning up every few months or so and have done for years. It might be that I'm probably one of the few people around here who doesn't tell them to just fuck off.
They're a bit barking in that they believe the word, literally, and have some peculiar views on things like blood transfusions being a sin which can lead to unnecessary tragedies, but one good thing is like the Quakers, they are very anti-war and conscientious objectors and have been persecuted just for that belief down the years. I doubt you'll ever hear of a JW suicide bomber.

[Trada]

Dave, seriously will you fuck of with this? There are 22 people dead including teenagers and an eight year old girl. Grow the fuck up and get away from whatever shite Facebook and Twitter feeds you read.

Of course I know it will be suspended for at least a couple of days I was just wondering how long thats all I heard the national campaign maybe stopped for up to 6 days.

Heres Faisal Islam of Skynews in a off camera chat I guess they didn't know it was being recorded saying it plays into Mays hands and because Jeremy is being portrayed as a IRA sympathiser people will link this Manchester bombing with Manchester IRA bombing in their minds.

And seem to be thinking it maybe be suspended to after the Bank Holiday if no one breaks ranks.

Its how the media are thinking and this was yesterday morning.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/BAK7r11t5w8" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/BAK7r11t5w8</a>

[Lecter]

I think any event like this will play into the hands of the incumbent whoever they are and whoever the opposition is

[The Gulleysucker]

Trada, there's world of difference between the reasonable journalistic speculation...plays into Mays hands and because Jeremy is being portrayed as a IRA sympathiser people will link this Manchester bombing with Manchester IRA bombing in their minds around 1.90 -2.10, and what you said...

...I'm a very cynical when it comes to this government the longer it goes on the longer I think its the Tories trying to gerrymander the result. 
Usually it a case of the government saying we must not let them win and life should get back to normal quickly but not this time.

[B0151?]

Yeah the leap from 'it may benefit her' to "she's using it to benefit her' is deeply cynical and rather extreme I'd say.

[TravisBickle]

How long do people think the Election campaign will be suspended for?

I'm a very cynical when it comes to this government the longer it goes on the longer I think its the Tories trying to gerrymander the result. 

Usually it a case of the government saying we must not let them win and life should get back to normal quickly but not this time.

 The campaign has been suspended because the parties have chosen to suspend it. If Jeremy Corbyn and Labour want to get back out there then nobody, not even the Tories, can stop them.

 I'm of the mind all parties should resume tomorrow. May has been everywhere (rightly so) and this is the middle of a campaign - it's bound to have some influence. Implying this attack is being exploited however, is low. And not very bright.

[Lecter]

You have the intellectual capacity of an eleven year old.

Haha, he clearly doesnt know what "gerrymandering" is anyway. His definition certainly differs from what I was taught back in the late 80's anyway

[Cliff Bastin]

Anyone thinking the Tories NEED to gerrymander the coming election are absolutely delusional.

[MaskedBenitez]

Stop selling billions of pounds worth of arms to Saudi Arabia the home of Wahabism. That'd be a great start Theresa and Donald. Thanks, Bye.

[Priest078]

No, I don't read the Daily Mail. Do you?

Nope

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Stop selling billions of pounds worth of arms to Saudi Arabia the home of Wahabism. That'd be a great start Theresa and Donald. Thanks, Bye.

as much as I don't like that seeing what other stuff happens in the Middle East during leadership instability they're probably the least worst option

[OperationIvy]

Stop selling billions of pounds worth of arms to Saudi Arabia the home of Wahabism. That'd be a great start Theresa and Donald. Thanks, Bye.

That will solve nothing. Saudi dont really do that much fighting. The only people that suffer from the arms we sell Saudi are the Houthis in Yemen.

It would just make us poorer and another seller (presumably Russia) richer.

[stewil007]

It would just make us poorer and another seller (presumably Russia) richer.

Moral minefield that