Topic: Roy Evans

[liverbloke]

Sadly, the fault lies with Roy with the whole Spice Boy schtick. There was a lack of discipline at the club. When Houllier came in that's what he instilled and got rid of those who wouldn't fall in line. It came too late for Robbie who had fallen into bad habbits in terms of behaviour due to the culture at the club in the mid 90s.  Carragher credits Houllier with keeping him on the straight and narrow, with Houllier coming in just in time. Gerrard and Owen could have also gone a different way if they'd broke through a few years earlier.

As we've seen again with Jurgen the culture at Liverpool stems from the manager.

yeh that's a good point

and troublesome players can be dropped, left out or moved on

but also you can see that the youngsters would've been taken in by ruddock's domineering personality but ultimately, as you say, the manger should have gotten on top of that

[markmywords]

Sadly, the fault lies with Roy with the whole Spice Boy schtick. There was a lack of discipline at the club. When Houllier came in that's what he instilled and got rid of those who wouldn't fall in line. It came too late for Robbie who had fallen into bad habbits in terms of behaviour due to the culture at the club in the mid 90s.  Carragher credits Houllier with keeping him on the straight and narrow, with Houllier coming in just in time. Gerrard and Owen could have also gone a different way if they'd broke through a few years earlier.

As we've seen again with Jurgen the culture at Liverpool stems from the manager.

I think the spice boys tag and the neil ruddock pile on is a little over the top. Surely they were somewhat to blame, but the core issue is the recruitment. What Ged brought was top class players into the team; hyypia and hamann in particular, despite all the discipline that he instilled results fell away as the recruitment got worse from 2002 onwards.

The spice boys tag  is largely people forcing the evidence to fit their conclusions. Fergie says "the minute I saw them in white suits I knew we would beat them" and fans lap that nonsense up. It similiar to the body language experts that will be out in force in salah goes a few games without scoring

Roy evans didn't sign a single player that would have got in Manchester united's team, Ruddock is a party animal apparantly, so were dwight yorke and marc bosnich but they have trophies galore as their manager was signing world class players around them. If Roy had become manager in 1991,  or 1994 of you don't have an eye for a player its curtains eventually

[Fromola]

I think the spice boys tag and the neil ruddock pile on is a little over the top. Surely they were somewhat to blame, but the core issue is the recruitment. What Ged brought was top class players into the team; hyypia and hamann in particular, despite all the discipline that he instilled results fell away as the recruitment got worse from 2002 onwards.

Roy evans didn't sign a single player that would have got in Manchester united's team, Ruddock is a party animal, apparantly so were dwight yorke and marc bosnich but they have trophies galore as their manager was signing world class players around them. If Roy had become manager in 1991,  or 1994 of you don't have an eye for a player its curtains eventually

Our first team recruitment was hopeless throughout the 90s and we would have been worse off had we not had the luxury of world class players coming through the youth teams.

United players liked a drink and a party but Ferguson was all over it if there was ill discipline and he kept the likes of Giggs on the straight and narrow.

Ruddock was an arse but he did what players do and pushed the boundaries

[Ghost Town]

I think the spice boys tag and the neil ruddock pile on is a little over the top. Surely they were somewhat to blame, but the core issue is the recruitment. What Ged brought was top class players into the team; hyypia and hamann in particular, despite all the discipline that he instilled results fell away as the recruitment got worse from 2002 onwards.

The spice boys tag  is largely people forcing the evidence to fit their conclusions. Fergie says "the minute I saw them in white suits I knew we would beat them" and fans lap that nonsense up. It similiar to the body language experts that will be out in force in salah goes a few games without scoring

Insofar as the white suits are concerned I do agree. It's classic post-hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning. If we had won that game another narrative would have been offered in its place: maybe something about the suits demonstrating our fuck-you attitude and determination and confidence. Talking heads for the next thirty years would have pontificated how without wearing those suits we could never have won. It's the suits wot won it. Etc.

Personally I have no issue with the suits. I mean they looked like twats but then footballers often do.

However, separate to the suits there was a different, more insidious problem about attitude and professionalism and concentration that the team at that time was exhibiting, and I guess 'spice boys' is as good a short hand term for that as any other

The rest of your points about recruitment are spot on

[Bjornar]

I think the spice boys tag and the neil ruddock pile on is a little over the top. Surely they were somewhat to blame, but the core issue is the recruitment. What Ged brought was top class players into the team; hyypia and hamann in particular, despite all the discipline that he instilled results fell away as the recruitment got worse from 2002 onwards.

The spice boys tag  is largely people forcing the evidence to fit their conclusions. Fergie says "the minute I saw them in white suits I knew we would beat them" and fans lap that nonsense up. It similiar to the body language experts that will be out in force in salah goes a few games without scoring

Both Evans and Houllier had the second or third largest budget in the PL and made us the second or third best team, don't see that much difference in how well they did in the grand scheme of things and I don't agree with posts making Evans out to be an outright failure and Houllier an unqualified success story. They were both great servants of the club who fell somewhat short of what was hoped for from them IMO.

Not sure that Houllier did that much better than Evans in the transfer market either. It's true that Evans didn't make any signings as good as Hyypia, but then he didn't spend 20 million in one summer on three players that actually weakened us like Houllier did on Diouf, Diao and Cheyrou either.

You're spot on about the white suits final, it was a completely even game decided by a random goal from a corner.

[Fromola]

Not sure that Houllier did that much better than Evans in the transfer market though. It's true that he didn't make any signings as good as Hyypia, but then he didn't manage to spend 20 million in one summer on three players that actually weakened us like Houllier did on Diouf, Diao and Cheyrou either.

Ultimately it unraveled for both when they got the recruitment wrong at a time when we needed to push on for the title. We collapsed in '97 season run-in when we should have won it that year. We then signed Paul Ince that summer as 'the final piece of the jigsaw' and signed Riedle when what we needed was a commanding centre back. Friedel who was held up over a work permit and it didn't work out in the end. We needed a keeper ready to start that season after James had lost the plot.

Similar for Houllier in 2002 after we'd got close to the title and just fell short of Arsenal. Rather than keep Anelka and sign a winger we got Diouf, Diao and Cheyrou and nearly signed Lee Bowyer. Then the next summer missed out on Ronaldo.

[Eeyore]

Will people stop bumping this thread I keep thinking something has happened to Roy.

[Bjornar]

Ultimately it unraveled for both when they got the recruitment wrong at a time when we needed to push on for the title. We collapsed in '97 season run-in when we should have won it that year. We then signed Paul Ince that summer as 'the final piece of the jigsaw' and signed Riedle when what we needed was a commanding centre back. Friedel who was held up over a work permit and it didn't work out in the end. We needed a keeper ready to start that season after James had lost the plot.

Similar for Houllier in 2002 after we'd got close to the title and just fell short of Arsenal. Rather than keep Anelka and sign a winger we got Diouf, Diao and Cheyrou and nearly signed Lee Bowyer. Then the next summer missed out on Ronaldo.

I mostly agree with that, but we were never close to the level of Arsenal and Man U under Houllier. Different story under Evans, but both teams improved vastly in the meantime. Ince, Riedle and Leonhardsen contributed a lot more than Diouf, Diao and Cheyrou, and  Cisse was also a big flop.

[StigenKeegan]

You're spot on about the white suits final, it was a completely even game decided by a random goal from a corner.

Maybe it could be considered even, but we certainly edged it. If I remember correctly we had more than 50% possession inside the United half. People seem to have largely forgotten this because of what happened in the years after the best Evans years, but when we were playing them Ferguson was scared of us. He basically parked the bus every time we played them. Same thing in that final. Then they got lucky. As they always do. So if Ferguson wants to clam that he knew they would get lucky and beat the better team when he saw those suits, fine... It says more about him than about those suits... and that's saying something

[AmSeeker]

Most managers last few seasons tarnish their legacy. At his peak Evans gave us back our pride, bought us stability, and had us challenging again, after the horror Souness years.

We players some great attacking football. Yes you can bash him with a few sticks for some of his faults, but you could do that with Gerrard and Raffa too.

[hide5seek]

i always felt looking back on the 90s and Roy Evans time was where were our leaders? it just seemed the younger players lack guidance and a bit of discipline and pricks like ruddock and don hutchinson could do what the wanted and be a bad influence. Out of the older players Barnes seems to be the only one that provided some semblance of that but the likes of Whelan and Molby were a disappointment in that regard. perhaps im being too harsh though. i was young back then so dont really know the ins and outs of the situation. seemed to me like neither gave a shit towards the end of their time at Liverpool.

Roy became manager in '94 which was the year Whelan left the club. Molby was around until '96. Barnes was still around till '97. But it was really on Roy to control the dressing room and if he couldn't he should've brought in a right-hand man that could.

[Bjornar]

People seem to have largely forgotten this because of what happened in the years after the best Evans years, but when we were playing them Ferguson was scared of us. He basically parked the bus every time we played them.

Yes, he knew they couldn't handle us at at our best, the 2-0 win in 95/96 should have been a 5-0. Then they improved in the years that followed, while we didn't. Such a shame that Evans wasn't able to win big trophies with that side, there was a lot of quality there.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Maybe it could be considered even, but we certainly edged it. If I remember correctly we had more than 50% possession inside the United half. People seem to have largely forgotten this because of what happened in the years after the best Evans years, but when we were playing them Ferguson was scared of us. He basically parked the bus every time we played them. Same thing in that final. Then they got lucky. As they always do. So if Ferguson wants to clam that he knew they would get lucky and beat the better team when he saw those suits, fine... It says more about him than about those suits... and that's saying something

They used to man mark McManaman as they were so scared of him.

I remember them trying the three centre backs with Giggs in the McManaman ‘floating’ role but it never worked for them.

[Fromola]

Roy became manager in '94 which was the year Whelan left the club. Molby was around until '96. Barnes was still around till '97. But it was really on Roy to control the dressing room and if he couldn't he should've brought in a right-hand man that could.

He had Ronnie Moran.

[Fromola]

They used to man mark McManaman as they were so scared of him.

I remember them trying the three centre backs with Giggs in the McManaman ‘floating’ role but it never worked for them.

The problem with the 96 cup final was we'd battered them in the league that season with particularly Mcmanaman at Anfield and Fowler at Old Trafford destroying them. Ferguson set them up to spoil the game, stop our passing game and mark Mcmanaman out of it, which didn't suit us. We were a footballing side.

Sadly anti-football won the day.

[hide5seek]

He had Ronnie Moran.

True. But for whatever reason, it didn't work. Maybe Moran was getting on or times had changed too much? A younger type of Moran? Phil Thompson, Gerard brought him back in but maybe if Roy had, who knows?

[Fromola]

True. But for whatever reason, it didn't work. Maybe Moran was getting on or times had changed too much? A younger type of Moran? Phil Thompson, Gerard brought him back in but maybe if Roy had, who knows?

Phil Thompson might have worked out but the culture needs to come from the manager, he's the one in charge. Robbie hardly had respect for Thompson when Houllier was manager and maybe because he came through in a bad culture. Houllier had to pretty much move the Evans team on because of too many bad habbits and was able to command the respect of some of the younger players coming through like Carragher, Gerrard, Murphy and Owen. David Thomspon wasn't as lucky.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Roy became manager in '94 which was the year Whelan left the club. Molby was around until '96. Barnes was still around till '97. But it was really on Roy to control the dressing room and if he couldn't he should've brought in a right-hand man that could.

I think firstly we’d just replaced Souness as manager who was a disciplinarian and very strict which stifled a lot of the players, especially the younger ones. Being a bit more ‘passive’ with the players after the Souness reign seemed to give them a lot more freedom on the pitch and helped them to express themselves. We played some magnificent football under Evan’s at times.

Secondly this was right at the start of the Premier League years, these young players were suddenly earning vast amounts of money. There wasn’t the education and training in the game then that there is now that prepares players for that sudden wealth.

I remember United had similar issues that weren’t so highly publicised, like Ferguson finding out some of his young players were at a party so he personally drove there and took them home.

[hide5seek]

Phil Thompson might have worked out but the culture needs to come from the manager, he's the one in charge. Robbie hardly had respect for Thompson when Houllier was manager and maybe because he came through in a bad culture. Houllier had to pretty much move the Evans team on because of too many bad habbits and was able to command the respect of some of the younger players coming through like Carragher, Gerrard, Murphy and Owen. David Thomspon wasn't as lucky.

I don't disagree. I did say I'm my first post on the subject it was on Roy.

[ljycb]

About 2010 Ruddock was at some sort of footie event at an hotel beside Bolton’s ground.  I was staying at same hotel for work.  Ruddock spent the evening in the hotel bar sinking shorts like it was last orders, and getting louder as the evening wore on.  Was well leathered with a few others drinking with him. Not sure if he still hits the booze that hard, but he was fond of it during his playing days too.

Think it’s pretty well known at this point that he is an alcoholic. Sure I’ve watched a documentary with him and a couple of former footballers, think it was on ITV, a particularly sad moment between him and Paul Merson about Razor’s drinking. Horrible thing to go through.