Topic: Roy Evans

[Barnes & Beardsley]

A lot of people say we were in the race in '97 but I never really thought we were to be honest.

Evans did well in that season and we only finished 7 points behind the Mancs and on equal points with Newcastle and Arsenal. The only thing that separated us was goal difference.

We were still in the race until we drew with Everton, lost to Man U, beat Spurs, lost to Wimbledon and drew with Sheff Wednesday in our last 5 games.

We also had a good run in the Cup Winners Cup getting to the semis.

[the_prodigal_s0n]

We were alot closer to winning the league under Roy than we have ever under Rafa.......Remember i think it was 1996/7 when we had a great chance going into April but we lost 3-1 to Mancs. I always liked him would take him back now for sure him and Sammy Lee would win us number 19, something unfortunately Rafa cant do

Does it need to be pointed out again how many points Evans got during his stay in charge? As much as I like Roy, he would have no chance of winning us the league now. The league has become incredibly hard to win.

[Trousers]

both...

higher average position after 4 years, and smaller average gap to the winners after 4 years

Oh do fuck off it's been pointed out to you already. Of course he's going to have a smaller average gap when the champions finish on 89, 82, 75, 78pts.
Compare that to what Rafa faced 95, 91, 89, 87pts.
It's not hard to understand. Roy was closer because the champions points total was lower. Not because he was a better manager than Rafa.
That is simple logic and maths. For example. We finished 15 points behind Blackburn over 42 games, are you seriously suggesting we mounted any serious title campaign that season.

[a partridge in seat_5c]

I've never seen us go to Old Trafford and piss all over United under anyone like we did under Evans, wave after wave of attacks

I can remember McAteer running about 100 fucking miles in one of those games from right wing back, fucking criminal the stick he got from the same people that bang on about Dirk Kuyt's workrate

don't get me wrong, Rafa's the man for the job right now, but if I had to pay gate money over  every other saturday to watch home league games of any side since say the Barnes, Beardsley, Aldridge vintage, for the purpose of mine entertainment, it would be the Evans era side for me

attack attack attackatackatackatack (and it was sung in a scouse accent then)

[conman]

I always wonder why Evans never got another high profile job at another club does anyone else? I mean by all accounts Sourness was disaster at Liverpool but it never stopped him getting several high profile postions at various different clubs and finally a comfy chair with sly sports.

i always thought rafa was in mourning after liverpool, and another job wasnt an option for sometime.. but, i often thought the same since, and i think its more to do with him being humble and not putting himself out there. but perhaps he isnt one for taking on roles at any club that requires a manager, afterall, he was at liverpool all his life.. never one for moving about.. hie life as he seen it was to serve liverpool.

[conman]

i think no one can compare points of rafa and roy. they were different era's, the 90's were a time for opportunistic teams to challenge the title, many teams had a chance, then the breakaway came with the money.. since the influx of money to the game and foreigners, the top 4 have been mostly head and shoulders above the chasing pack, and they are not even a chasing pack, but the 2nd tier of the top tier.

[Sweet Silver Song]

Maybe Roy achieved nothing as a player. Nor did Rafa or Wenger did they?

Souness achieved plenty as a player, and is im preety sure the most sacked manager in European football.

I cant believe the number of people on this board who are slating a man who gave 20+ years to our club.

Hold your heads in shame the lot of you

Rafa and Wenger had won things in abroad before coming to this country. They were well both respected, even though they achieved nothing as players.

As for slating someone who has done 20+ years of service for the club. I'm not slating him. I'm slating Moores for appointing him manager. I don't care if you're the Dalai Lama, but if during your time as manager of Liverpool, you set the club irreversibly back, then I don't think it would be right that the failings are covered over. Regardless of you being a solid and fabulous guy that served the club well the other years. People are quick to slate Souness for his failings during his time in charge, and forget the contribution he made as a player. Why should it be the opposite for Roy?

[Sweet Silver Song]

I appreciate your point, but if the managers going to be the cause of the team choking, id rather choke in april or may, than be choked by your own suffocation tactics before christmas.

Rafa's team may choke in January in the championship race, because the gap between us and the likes of Man U and Chelsea is so vast. But let's try and work out why the gap is so large between us and man u. Back in 1994, there wasn't much of gap was there? Not as much as now. And who exactly is to blame for that gap growing? Rafa in 2004? Or Roy in 1994?

As for choking. Rafa doesn't choke. He's a winner. He wins finals. Even when they don't win, they still turn up. Remind me what happend in 1996. Rafa since being here, as always achieved his minimum target for the season. i.e. qualify for Champions League football. Roy never achieved any of his minimum targets. Ever. Maybe apart from that first season when the League cup was won.

[Sweet Silver Song]

I always wonder why Evans never got another high profile job at another club does anyone else? I mean by all accounts Sourness was disaster at Liverpool but it never stopped him getting several high profile postions at various different clubs and finally a comfy chair with sly sports.

This is exactly my point. Would you employ someone who had a reputation for allowing ill-discipline amongst his playing staff, where the players openly took the piss out of you, didn't bother turning up for training, and massively underachieved?  Would you employ someone who was given a better transfer  budget than 90% of the other teams, broke the British transfer record, but still failed to sign anyone who could be considered half a success. No you wouldn't. But that's the reality folks. At probably the most crucial time in the history of football where the financial circumstances where mushrooming, we employed a manager to look after our affairs that not even the Premiership relegation cannon fodder would employ.

[TSC]

Rafa since being here, as always achieved his minimum target for the season. i.e. qualify for Champions League football. Roy never achieved any of his minimum targets. Ever. Maybe apart from that first season when the League cup was won.

How do you know that's his minimum target?  I don't think he should get praise for finishing 4th.  Not good enough.  Are you well satisfied with that as a supporter?

No Liverpool manager should get praise for finishing 4th, esp if they set it out at the start of a season as a target.  To be fair to Rafa I don't think I've read a quote at the beginning of a season that his goal is to finish 4th - I don't think supporter reaction to such a target would be favourable, and nor should it.

[Sweet Silver Song]

How do you know that's his minimum target?  I don't think he should get praise for finishing 4th.  Not good enough.  Are you well satisfied with that as a supporter?

No Liverpool manager should get praise for finishing 4th, esp if they set it out at the start of a season as a target.  To be fair to Rafa I don't think I've read a quote at the beginning of a season that his goal is to finish 4th - I don't think supporter reaction to such a target would be favourable, and nor should it.

Sorry to piss on your parade. But the minimum target for us is 4th. Anything else is a bonus. Getting 4th gives you the money, the money gives you the opportunity to compete for better minimum targets. Our minimum target since Roy's time has been Champions league football. Something he has failed to deliver every single time, and something Rafa has delivered every single time.

[TSC]

Sorry to piss on your parade. But the minimum target for us is 4th. Anything else is a bonus. Getting 4th gives you the money, the money gives you the opportunity to compete for better minimum targets. Our minimum target since Roy's time has been Champions league football. Something he has failed to deliver every single time, and something Rafa has delivered every single time.

You're pissing on a few parades, so we'll we'll have to disagree then.  Take it you're well satisfied how this season turned out, as in your opinion Rafa achieved his target.  Well I'm sorry finishing 4th doesn't do it for me.  Maybe it's 'cos I grew up through the 70's and 80's.  4th is pants.

On the money side your argument falls down, as we're in a mess irrespective of where we finished anyway due to the bigger issue.  Do you see us going out and signing all and sundry due to our fantastic 4th (that sounds like an Everton dvd title)? 

How standards have fallen if it's considered anything above 4th is a bonus.

[nidgemo]

You're pissing on a few parades, so we'll we'll have to disagree then.  Take it you're well satisfied how this season turned out, as in your opinion Rafa achieved his target.  Well I'm sorry finishing 4th doesn't do it for me.  Maybe it's 'cos I grew up through the 70's and 80's.  4th is pants.

Our minimum target since Roy's time has been Champions league football. Something he has failed to deliver every single time, and something Rafa has delivered every single time.

Which just goes to show that the minimum acceptable target has gone from top 2, to top 4.

And, for me, that's not acceptable at all.

[ben]

top fella. when i was a kid i found out that my dad was going to some charity do and roy evans was speaking. so, thinking i knew better than him, i write him a quick note saying that i thought rushy should be dropped and stan collymore should have been getting more game time.

naturally, when me dad was pissed he gave it to him and fair play to roy, he write a response for him to give back to me. said something like, 'don't worry about stan he'll be alright, rushy is just looking after his place for a bit'.

nice touch.

[Sweet Silver Song]

You're pissing on a few parades, so we'll we'll have to disagree then.  Take it you're well satisfied how this season turned out, as in your opinion Rafa achieved his target.  Well I'm sorry finishing 4th doesn't do it for me.  Maybe it's 'cos I grew up through the 70's and 80's.  4th is pants.

On the money side your argument falls down, as we're in a mess irrespective of where we finished anyway due to the bigger issue.  Do you see us going out and signing all and sundry due to our fantastic 4th (that sounds like an Everton dvd title)? 

How standards have fallen if it's considered anything above 4th is a bonus.

I'm sorry. You mention the 70's and 80's. But I guess you need to stop living in the 70's and 80's. Things have moved on. We're not top dogs anymore. We're the equivalent of Tot tenham in the 80's. We'll never really challenge for the league, despite having some good players, but we'll always stand a chance of winning one of the cups. I know it's a painful adjustment, but some of us have made that adjustment. Get used to it.

[Sweet Silver Song]

top fella. when i was a kid i found out that my dad was going to some charity do and roy evans was speaking. so, thinking i knew better than him, i write him a quick note saying that i thought rushy should be dropped and stan collymore should have been getting more game time.

naturally, when me dad was pissed he gave it to him and fair play to roy, he write a response for him to give back to me. said something like, 'don't worry about stan he'll be alright, rushy is just looking after his place for a bit'.

nice touch.

Nice bloke. But I'd rather have had a total wnaker and spiteful cunnt like Ferguson, who was also a good manager, in charge. 

[LFC Lad]

We'll never really challenge for the league,

You don't know that.  The mancs may be top dogs now but they won't be forever.

[nidgemo]

I'm sorry. You mention the 70's and 80's. But I guess you need to stop living in the 70's and 80's. Things have moved on. We're not top dogs anymore. We're the equivalent of Tot tenham in the 80's. We'll never really challenge for the league, despite having some good players, but we'll always stand a chance of winning one of the cups. I know it's a painful adjustment, but some of us have made that adjustment. Get used to it.

The reason we're not top dogs any more is because we have too many fans happy to accept mediocrity. Like you. The kind of fans who think a manager getting us 4th is a genius.

Not for me, thanks.

[Sweet Silver Song]

The reason we're not top dogs any more is because we have too many fans happy to accept mediocrity. Like you. The kind of fans who think a manager getting us 4th is a genius.

Not for me, thanks.

As a big fan of Roy, and what he did for us. Surely that statement by you has to take the prize for the most ironic post on RAWK. Surely the fact that I don't accept mediocrity is the reason I'm so scathing about Roy. 10 years on, Rafa is doing his best to patch up Roy's holes.

[nidgemo]

As a big fan of Roy, and what he did for us. Surely that statement by you has to take the prize for the most ironic post on RAWK. Surely the fact that I don't accept mediocrity is the reason I'm so scathing about Roy. 10 years on, Rafa is doing his best to patch up Roy's holes.

I'm a big fan of Roy as a man.

What he did for us was nothing special - I never said it was. Where I think you're getting confused is that you think, in the league, Rafa IS doing something special.

I don't think he is. At all. As I pointed out, Roy was, properly, shown the door for getting us 4 consecutive 3rd / 4th finishes.

Point is, I'm pretty much of the belief that, in the league, Rafa has failed every bit as much as Roy, and the time should soon come for him to get the same treatment.

You think by me saying Roy has as good a league record as Rafa, that I'm saying Roy done something special. What I'm actually saying is that they both have similar records, and that, in the league, NEITHER has done anything even remotely special.


Indeed, if there is a candidate for the most ironic post, it would be thos who think Rafa is performing miracles to get 5th, 4th and 3rd place finishes, and then say Roy was a shite manager in the next breath...

[TSC]

I'm sorry. You mention the 70's and 80's. But I guess you need to stop living in the 70's and 80's. Things have moved on. We're not top dogs anymore. We're the equivalent of Tot tenham in the 80's. We'll never really challenge for the league, despite having some good players, but we'll always stand a chance of winning one of the cups. I know it's a painful adjustment, but some of us have made that adjustment. Get used to it.

What a tool of a statement.  Settle for whatever mate.  I know the lads I go to the games with week in week out don't have your attitude thank fuck.  Sorry, can never get used to settling for fourth.  What a blase defeatist second rate attitude.

Anyway, couldn't be assed getting into such a debate.  It's way off what the thread was about. 

[Trousers]

The reason we're not top dogs any more is because we have too many fans happy to accept mediocrity. Like you. The kind of fans who think a manager getting us 4th is a genius.

Not for me, thanks.

Ah and there's me thinking it's because Rafa can't compete on a level playing field with both Utd and Chelsea. When in actual fact it's been the fans willingness to accept fourth place that's been the problem.

You are full of shit Roy hasn't done as well as Rafa in the league, the stats prove it. Rafa's done a good job in keeping us where we are, but we are not going to compete without investment.

If you want to judge Rafa, judge him when he's on a level playing field. (Like Roy was) If not well you'll become (you are) like Peter Swales wanting the manager sacked after 18 months or sooner.

Name the manager to come in and do a better job than Rafa with limited resources who'll win us the league?

[nidgemo]

You are full of shit Roy hasn't done as well as Rafa in the league, the stats prove it.

The stats that show Roy had two 3rds, and two 4ths in his 4 years, compared to Rafas two 3rds, a 4th and a 5th?

Or the stats that show Roy finished an average of 10 points behind the winners, as opposed to Rafas average of 20 points behind the leaders?

Ah and there's me thinking it's because Rafa can't compete on a level playing field with both Utd and Chelsea.

And Roy could? Blackburn and Newcastle were both breaking transfer records regularly. Man U were paying £12 million for Dwight Yorke etc.

Roy was on no more a level playing field then than Rafa is now.

[SMD]

Do you have the memory of a goldfish? I addressed that already. Go look on Soccerbase if you want, you'll find us competing with Blackburn (who really weren't around at the top as long as you're making them out to be) and Newcastle easily.

[Sweet Silver Song]

I'm a big fan of Roy as a man.

What he did for us was nothing special - I never said it was. Where I think you're getting confused is that you think, in the league, Rafa IS doing something special.

I don't think he is. At all. As I pointed out, Roy was, properly, shown the door for getting us 4 consecutive 3rd / 4th finishes.

Point is, I'm pretty much of the belief that, in the league, Rafa has failed every bit as much as Roy, and the time should soon come for him to get the same treatment.

You think by me saying Roy has as good a league record as Rafa, that I'm saying Roy done something special. What I'm actually saying is that they both have similar records, and that, in the league, NEITHER has done anything even remotely special.


Indeed, if there is a candidate for the most ironic post, it would be thos who think Rafa is performing miracles to get 5th, 4th and 3rd place finishes, and then say Roy was a shite manager in the next breath...

An assessment of how well a manager has done is not purely based on league positions and points gained. It’s based on things like how well the manager has performed given the particular circumstances at the club;

a)   The players that they inherited
b)   The players that come through the system
c)   The money available to spend
d)   The money available to spend compared to your rivals
e)   The strength of your rivals
f)   How well you spent the money you did have
g)   How well you did helping your players realise their full potential
h)   How well you did in realising the teams full potential

I can put it to you that in categories a- e Roy had a distinct advantage over Rafa. And in categories f-g Rafa did better than Roy. In other words Rafa pisses all over Roy under every single category. Don’t just take my word for it. If Rafa were to leave us, he’d probably end up at one of the top European teams like Barcelona or Inter. When Roy left us, he  went on to manage Swindon Town. The football world knows how well each manager has done.

[nidgemo]

An assessment of how well a manager has done is not purely based on league positions

Well fuck me. The world has gone mad.

We'll be on an open topped bus next may parading our "winners in category a, b, c and h" quadruple.

[lachesis]

Evans inherited a team in relative freefall, he did well to steady the ship. In retrospect he probably stayed too long, but iI'm sure there would be a different outlook had 4th place back then been a CL place.

He wasn't the best tactically, which was shown in later rounds of the CWC or against organised opposition in the UEFA Cup.

As for the whole finishing behind first place malarkey it doesn't really matter. First is first, second to fourth is second barring a given qualifier- which in the grand schemes of things mean nothing; it isn't first, that's all.

You cannot compare Evans and Benitez because of the different climates they have operated in. Evans coming back now would be disastrous in my opinion.

At the end of the day, Evans came in and steadied a wreck, got Liverpool playing football to raise spirits and that was needed at the time, there were plenty of heads down, which gained a little optimism. I think both (Rafa/Evans) done as much as they could with the squads they have/had.

Roy was on no more a level playing field then than Rafa is now.

Perfectly true.

[Trousers]

The stats that show Roy had two 3rds, and two 4ths in his 4 years, compared to Rafas two 3rds, a 4th and a 5th?

Or the stats that show Roy finished an average of 10 points behind the winners, as opposed to Rafas average of 20 points behind the leaders?

And Roy could? Blackburn and Newcastle were both breaking transfer records regularly. Man U were paying £12 million for Dwight Yorke etc.

Roy was on no more a level playing field then than Rafa is now.

Words fucking fail me Roy broke the transfer record for Collymore, spent £10m on two centre halves on the same day another 4 for Mcateer.

I'll point out to you yet again because you are ignoring the stats;

Roy Evans, League Champions:
94/95 Blackburn 89pts
95/96 Utd 82pts
96/97 Utd 75pts
97/98 Arsenal 78pts

Rafa:
04/05 Chelsea 95pts
05/06 Chelsea 91pts
06/07 Utd 89pts
07/08 Utd 87pts

Does it sink in now is it getting through that the only reason Roy was closer was because the fucking points for the champions was fucking lower. Rafa would have had two League titles in Roy's time.

So move Roy's record up to Rafa's period and what do you have.

94/95 LFC 74pts 15 behind Blackburn = 21pts behind Chelsea(95) 04/05 (RB) LFC 58pts 37 behind
95/96 LFC 71pts 11 behind Utd = 20pts behind Chelsea(91) 05/06  (RB) LFC 82pts 8 behind
96/97 LFC 68pts 8 behind Utd = 21pts behind Utd(89) 06/07 (RB) LFC 68pts 21 behind
97/98 LFC 65pts 13 behind Arsenal = 22pts behind Utd(87) 07/08 (RB) LFC 76pts 11 behind

[nidgemo]

Does it sink in now is it getting through that the only reason Roy was closer was because the fucking points for the champions was fucking lower. Rafa would have had two League titles in Roy's time.

And Roy would have had 2 in Shankly or Paisleys era.

You can only manage in the era you're in - in Roys era, he got us closer to the ttle than Rafa has in his era, despite inheriting a much worse side.

I understand you think Rafa's some kind of genius, but Rafa's league positions and finishes prove he's not - not in the premier league.

[the_prodigal_s0n]

And Roy would have had 2 in Shankly or Paisleys era.

You can only manage in the era you're in - in Roys era, he got us closer to the ttle than Rafa has in his era, despite inheriting a much worse side.

I understand you think Rafa's some kind of genius, but Rafa's league positions and finishes prove he's not - not in the premier league.

And in this era, none of our past managers would have come in and pissed on the opposition. All of them would have needed time to build a team capable of competing with Man Utd and Chelsea. They may have done a little better in the league, but by your standard of anything other than first is nothing, none of them would go down as geniuses. This is by far the most difficult era to win the league in. Back in 05/06 we broke the record for points for a 3rd place finish with 82 points. This year we broke the record points total for a 4th place finish with 76 points. We may not have ended the season with a trophy, but if anything it shows that this league is possibly the most difficult league ever, and in any country, to win.

Just out of interest, who do you think will come in, wave their magic wand and win us the league? Because I for one think that should Rafa go, it'll set us back a long, long time and not only will our record as the best English team get ripped to threads, our record as the best English team in Europe may well come under threat.

[Trousers]

And Roy would have had 2 in Shankly or Paisleys era.

You can only manage in the era you're in - in Roys era, he got us closer to the ttle than Rafa has in his era, despite inheriting a much worse side.

I understand you think Rafa's some kind of genius, but Rafa's league positions and finishes prove he's not - not in the premier league.

Again he got closer because the top side was weaker. You can't say it's in different eras then use the fact that Roy was closer to the top as a stick to beat Rafa with.

Where have I said I think Rafa is some kind of genius? Don't put words in my mouth.
You say he inherited a much worse side well Roy Evans also inherited the most natural finisher this club has ever seen as well. Something Rafa didn't have the luxury of.

Answer the fucking question which manager could come in and do a better job than Rafa given the strength of Chelsea and Utd and our own ability to tie our managers hands behind his back when it comes to strengthening the team.

The last 4 years the 2 richest teams have won the league is that coincidence?

[Robotforaday]

Coca Cola Cup against Bolton 94

1995, actually. I remember it well, great performance by Macca (although I don't want to turn this into a thread slagging him off). It's a shame that Evans doesn't have anything more to show for his time in charge (1996 FA Cup final broke my heart), but without knowing the full details about the off the pitch stuff and how much his own inability to take charge was responsibile for that, I think there are a lot of things our current team can learn from the pass and move style of play we employed, especially in the attacking half of the pitch.

[Trousers]

1995, actually. I remember it well, great performance by Macca (although I don't want to turn this into a thread slagging him off). It's a shame that Evans doesn't have anything more to show for his time in charge (1996 FA Cup final broke my heart), but without knowing the full details about the off the pitch stuff and how much his own inability to take charge was responsibile for that, I think there are a lot of things our current team can learn from the pass and move style of play we employed, especially in the attacking half of the pitch.

Yes it was 95 my mistake. The off field stuff you refer to was that the white suits or the Collymore situation?

[Sweet Silver Song]

1995, actually. I remember it well, great performance by Macca (although I don't want to turn this into a thread slagging him off). It's a shame that Evans doesn't have anything more to show for his time in charge (1996 FA Cup final broke my heart), but without knowing the full details about the off the pitch stuff and how much his own inability to take charge was responsibile for that, I think there are a lot of things our current team can learn from the pass and move style of play we employed, especially in the attacking half of the pitch.

This is the only point I will concede on the issue of Roy in this thread - other than admitting he's a nice bloke. But part of me thinks that Roy was actually slightly ahead of time. The way football has developed in the last 10 years with rewarding attacking play and penalising more physical play. The fact that we were a pass and move team, who attacked pretty well, but defended appallingly and played without a recognised holding midfielder or a hatchet players, makes me think that Roy's team could have succeeded a bit better in the modern era.

[Jason_King]

Roys just like Wenger, lovely football but no trophies.

Personally the football we played under him was great to watch, but again it was all foreplay and no actual penetration.

The only person who had a chance of managing Collymore would have been Mr. Ferguson and I think Stan the Man would have found himself out the door.

I also believe that Fowler was one of the main reasons we didnt become a mid table team at that time. He and McManaman pretty much kept us afloat.

I seem to remember our defence being absolutely shocking.

[Robotforaday]

Roys just like Wenger, lovely football but no trophies.

?

Trophies Arsene Wenger has won at Arsenal:

Premier League: 1998, 2002, 2004
FA Cup: 1998, 2002, 2003, 2005

I would like some of these "no trophies".

[Jason_King]

I was meaning the last couple of years.

Obviously ignoring his previous trophy strewn years.

[Robotforaday]

Yes it was 95 my mistake. The off field stuff you refer to was that the white suits or the Collymore situation?

Not so much the white suits, but what they stood for, the general playboy attitude around the team, the focus being on modelling rather than playing football. How much of this Roy could actually have controlled, or what we'd have achieved if it had been controlled, we'll just never know. As for Collymore, well, that situation was/is a very sad one, and I wouldn't like to make judgements in retrospect about what could have been done better - I think it's a very difficult thing to handle; football coaches aren't generally trained clinical psychologists after all.

[Rafas Tapas]

At the end of the day, Evans came in and steadied a wreck, got Liverpool playing football to raise spirits and that was needed at the time, there were plenty of heads down, which gained a little optimism. I think both (Rafa/Evans) done as much as they could with the squads they have/had.

Good summary.  In 1994 we might have appointed the perfect candidate and got back to the top - I wonder if Wenger's name was mentioned to the Board at that time?  On the other hand, we could have plumped for someone like, I don't know, Howard Wilkinson, and gone into complete free-fall because LFC always give managers three years.  Roy knew the club and its ways inside-out, and he got us back on an even keel when a riskier appointment could have gone either way.

[Sweet Silver Song]

Good summary.  In 1994 we might have appointed the perfect candidate and got back to the top - I wonder if Wenger's name was mentioned to the Board at that time?  On the other hand, we could have plumped for someone like, I don't know, Howard Wilkinson, and gone into complete free-fall because LFC always give managers three years.  Roy knew the club and its ways inside-out, and he got us back on an even keel when a riskier appointment could have gone either way.

Not if you have Chairmen like David Dein in charge, than the muppet we had in charge at the time. Dein was astute enough to know that whilst Rioch wasn't a poor manager, Wenger was a better one. He didn't wait the obligatory "three years" to make the change. Changed managers straight away, because he made the decision on behalf of the club, in the best interests of the club.

Meanwhile, our Chairman didn't have the heart to sack Souness when it was obvious it wasn't working, kept him in the job, but undermined his position by making Roy a joint manager. This relationship lasted a year with results even worse than before. And then kept Roy and got rid of Souness, not because it was the best decision for the club, but because he's a dithering idiot who couldn't make hard nosed decisions.