Author Topic: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.  (Read 15381 times)

Offline Hinesy

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The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« on: October 22, 2010, 09:46:50 pm »
I suppose I should post this in the Liverpool Way thread, but I don't want to dilute that thread about what we think it is these days.
Suffice to say as an old red I've been through many eras of 'The Liverpool Way' living through 10 managers (Bill, Bob, Joe, Kenny, Ronnie, Graeme, Roy, Ged, Rafa n Roy) (12 if you include Phil n Sammy's short stand ins) and have seen managers, players and recently owners royally try their best to fuck things up for what we think is that strange intangible etheral quality that is Liverpool, our club.
I've also seen fans do their best, bizarrely though as whole, less effectively than say Hicks, or Souness chatting to that rag, or MacManaman and to an extent Owen leavings.

But recently I have to say I think that the understanding of what is the Liverpool Way has been lost, or diluted, or not as well fundamentally, instinctively understood by the masses that turn up, sit down, switch on, press an ear to a wireless, stream a shitty picture, or read the text updates like some morse code operator, to our games.

The thought struck me when I read Barney Rubbles' post about Ronnie Moran's apprenticeship in the Boot Room ( http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=265312.msg7596689#msg7596689 ). I suddenly realised that one of the main problems about being understanding the responsibility of being a Liverpool fan (I know, it probably sounds fucking wank to some but fuck off) is that these days few of us have served that apprenticeship.

There are many stories on here and elsewhere about how fans used to serve their time in the Boys Pen, then graduate to the years of bunking in, before making it as a time served member of the Kop, or Annie Rd End (Kopites are gobshites) ending up eventually as a flask bringing red nosed grumpy c*nt of the Lower Cemetary.

Me? I didn’t go through this way, but I know many who did. However having a family from the Wirral meant that OOT’er as I come, I still had an upbringing steeped in Liverpool and Birkenhead ways, (yes there’s a difference I know but you know what I mean).
But more than that, the biggest thing was that I didn’t grow up with the internet and world wide media 24hr interest.

And this is my point. I think that the main reason that we, as fans, have lost sight of that Liverpool Way is because no longer do we sit in pubs and serve our apprenticeship listening to those we know, arguing our points and honing our thoughts in the privacy of a common interest, we now have 30,000 members on here alone shouting to be heard in the global bar of RAWK.

This isn’t at all anything about where we’re from, but the simple fact that none of us have to prove our worth in front of our peers in an area where we’re properly judged. Any of us on here can watch/ listen/follow a game and then spout forth our views without being called a right proper dick face to face for not understanding the club. All that happens is that another loud mouth tries to outdo you, or show off using location, history, or match going experience as emotionally currency and then the insecure poster shouts back and louder in an ever increasing circle of noise.

I really do think that the ability no matter where we are in the world, to instantly  become a match pundit, as if writing something in black and white makes it more authoritative, without forging our wisdom in front of a proper red fan jury, gives rise to the individual voice, divorced from the understanding of being part of a red family.
Look at the recent threads on, well anything. There’s almost a competitive element to see who can take the biggest piss out of our manager. In the days before mass media, we’d a grumbled about him and sure, taken the piss. But privately and everyone would know in the pub, at work, in the cafe, the limits and levels to which we could take our frustration.


Make no mistake, I was a fan of the appointment of Hodgson, but now I realise I was wrong. That doesn’t mean I’m going to bare my arse cheeks to the whole fucking world who can access the internet and embarrass and sully the good name of Liverpool fans by trying to outdo everyone with vitriol and sarcasm about his shortcomings.
Its funny that the Flagpole Corner used to be called The Boozer. A pub with 30,000+ customers, with the unique ability to hear and speak to everyone at the same time. No wonder the quiet and wise are lost in the hubbub and competition of the insecure and hollow half wit wanting to make an internet name for themselves.


I’m no luddite railing against the future. Its here already. But when we wonder why the Liverpool Way is being diluted, lost and misunderstood by everyone from L4 to Darfur, I have to say, these days its never going to go back to what some misty eyed sentimentalist might hope it once was. That way that we understand will continue to be diluted and there’s nothing we can do except this.



Those who do get it, those who can see that silvery thread that connects and binds and interweaves the club and fan and player and manager, well I’d say this.
You have to just keep that faith and preach it louder and stronger than ever. For without it we’re just fans of another shitty football club in debt. Already others would like to see us that way. Well they can fuck off. I’m a red and hope I know what it is to be that.
So with due respect to the rest of yers, please feel free to continue your club and derive what pleasure you can from it. I have mine and by god I’ll shout loud and long to preserve how it should be.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:49:26 pm by hinesy »
Yep.

Offline Borninbethlehem

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2010, 09:51:24 pm »
Hmmm, yes.

Offline Hinesy

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2010, 10:11:35 pm »
hmmm yes you agree?
Yep.

Offline bclfc

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2010, 10:15:13 pm »
Great post, cheers Hinesy.
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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2010, 10:17:16 pm »
Hinesy, just a thought...

Previously, the Liverpool way was passed on from generation to generation in the stands, streets and pubs. Changes in the stands, ticketing prices and policies changed this, Mass media came along and took over, and now we are here.

I think its important that you say "Diluted" rather than lost, or a forgotten, because what comes with mass media, is an ablity to preach to a wider audience, the audience just needs to know who to listen to. Cheap words i know, but there is a lot of value to them. I was not brought up in the boys pen, anny road or the kop, but as i got older i travelled. The "way" was diluted already, but since joining RAWK I like to think i have learned a lot more than i ever expected to before. So I wasn't born and along the Mersey, but I can learn from those who have. It just needs to be understand how we can maximise this.

I'm sure this has been prompted plenty of times, but would it be feasible to implement an apprenticeship right here on Rawk? It already exists to an extent, plenty of posters quote "long time lurker, first time poster", and i was the same, I used this site a good 2-3 years before i began posting.
So, Perhaps new members can only post 1-2 times a day until such a time that they are ready, or when a period of time or posts has been crossed. That way they can read from more experienced members, and will value their own posts. Same goes for us long time posters, after a ban we go through a similar period of reinstatement. This needs only apply to the football forums i guess, people can talk all day if they like about movies and such.


Also, Hopefully NESV might allow a family orientated scheme or a school kids type system where local kids get to go with their folks to be educated on the stands.

Offline mercurial

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2010, 10:18:25 pm »
the times they are a changing... thats how life is. The Liverpool way also has to keep up with the times. I agree with the ethos of your post. We cannot cling to how things used to be done traditionally since then we would be static just for the sake of holding on to traditions. That sounds harsh but then that is how the world has evolved. Today the world is truly global, most of the liverpool support which fuels the club comes from outside England. That support may not know or have the same appreciation of the tenets of behaviour that a local supporter has. That though does not make them any lesser as a supporter. He may ask for an instant resignation but then he also buys some merchandise on a whim while strolling through a market. The game has changed now and so has the type of supporter. TV and internet viewers are now as important as the match going one. The only way to help is to help them understand the liverpool way better is through the same media TV and internet. Hopefully the owners will address that sometime. Also, if individuals can do that through forums instead of trying to spout venom it would help.
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Offline Licky

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2010, 10:32:46 pm »
I'm one of those lower centenary flask carriers, just don't take the flask much nowadays.

Great post, it's posts like these that often appear In forums to serve as a constant reminder of the liverpool way, and long may the education be passed down.

It's easy in these debt-ridden, sly sports super Sunday, cash obscene days to think we've lost sight of the Liverpool way.

But continued posts like this, and the magnificent response in the protests, black shirt campaign and our ultimate victory against the yanks tells me all I need to know that the Liverpool way is a constant evolving ethos steeped in history but prepared to rise up against modern football during our hour of need, the club may have forgotten it (temporarily), but the Liverpool way is' and always will be passed down from generation to generation and no fan can really call themselves a fan of lfc until they've bought into it, but it's not something we enforce on people.  They all find and follow the Liverpool way cos it is all that's good and respectful about football without the scourge of the media bandwagon.  If your a fan of Liverpool the liverpool way will find you, and you will go on to enforce it, and feel like some arl b@stard talkn sh1t to the youngsters.

But when I look at the protest marches and see how much it meant to those lads who weren't even born when Terry Mac lifted that shot over kneib, it told it's own story.

Whisper words of wisdom ( like these posts) but in the words of the immortals , "let it be",

The Liverpool Way,  it's alive and always will be.

Great post !

 
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 10:34:21 pm by Licky »
They have translated from Halmstads to Malmo, to Orebo to Neuchatel Xamax, to the Swiss national team, so I find the question insulting.

Offline Terry de Niro

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2010, 10:35:59 pm »
Good post mate.

I like you am blessed with the memories of following all our great teams from the days of Shankly, Bob etc..
and got my education from my elders when I was eventually old enough to stand on the Kop.
A hell of a lot has changed since then regarding our fan-base and in some cases their lack of understanding of "the Liverpool way", well before the Vampires attempt to bleed us dry. Obviously they have knocked the stuffing out of most of us, which may take time for us, if ever to get over it.

I hate to say this, but part of their legacy, and I know that it's not his fault is still here in the shape of "our manager."
Now whether you talk to match goers or people on here, the general feeling amongst them is that appointment should never been allowed to happen.

I certainly didn't want him here from the start, but was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. But it's not just the results and the dour performances that are ripping me apart at the moment, it's the very fact that he is coming out with utter garbage every time he tries to justify what went wrong, and blaming everyone and everything but himself.

All that aside, because of all the shite we've had since that gloomy day when the cowboys rode into town and systematically lied and pillaged our great club, I've actually lost a bit of love that I'm desperately trying to get back. It's even got to the stage that I'm actually not as upset as I should be after defeats against bitter rivals such as Man U and Everton, and that's before I can mention Northampton and Blackpool.

Something drastic needs doing before we fall into utter despair or worse. But then again that may prove to be a good thing, as we may find out who really "supports" us should that happen.   
 
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 10:45:12 pm by Terracotta De Niro »

Offline E2K

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2010, 10:38:27 pm »
…one of the main problems about being understanding the responsibility of being a Liverpool fan (I know, it probably sounds fucking wank to some but fuck off) is that these days few of us have served that apprenticeship…

…sit in pubs and serve our apprenticeship listening to those we know, arguing our points and honing our thoughts in the privacy of a common interest…

…those who can see that silvery thread that connects and binds and interweaves the club and fan and player and manager, well I’d say this. You have to just keep that faith and preach it louder and stronger than ever. For without it we’re just fans of another shitty football club in debt.

Superb, my favourite parts quoted above. I’m not a Scouser, and I’m not an “auld arse,” but I do have my own feelings on what the “Liverpool Way” actually is. To me, it’s respect - respect for history, for the people who represent the club on and off the pitch, for opponents who show us the same, for those who have been doing this longer, our elders. It’s also about strength, of character, of will. You talk about apprenticeships and responsibilities, and you’re 100% spot on. Trouble is, most Liverpool supporters I meet nowadays are more worried about the banter being directed at them from Mancs or others than they are about supporting the team in the correct way. A fellow Liverpool fan told me today that a United supporter at work, upon hearing the news that Rooney had signed a new contract, loudly proclaimed “We’ll sign Torres next.” A Liverpool fan shouted back “You can have the lazy fucker,” or something to that effect. Every bit as unsettling as our manager seemingly kneeling down for them and, along with the constant parroting of Sky’s warped views, a sad indictment of how the Liverpool Way has slipped.
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Offline Borninbethlehem

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2010, 10:43:07 pm »

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2010, 11:07:56 pm »
"Hodgson wasn't signed the Liverpool Way"

Unfortunately, that seems to be the green light for many to say some very personal things about Hodgson.

I'm no big fan, and like many I wish he'd leave as he does not seem up to the task, but there's no need to photoshop him nor use swear words to describe him personally.

Next manager will probably have a bit more leeway, but 3 losses on the trot, and who knows ? "This is not a knee jerk reaction, but..." threads will pop up once more, before the inevitable/unfortunate personal insults follow.

Cat's out of the bag now I think sadly. The game's changed on the pitch, and off it as well.

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2010, 11:08:38 pm »
Good post Hinesy.

Me and my kid were on the Kop recently for the Sunderland game, his first time at Anfield. He's nine and a good red in the face of much competition. There are plenty of other kits in his playground, put it that way. Anyway, he was rapt for the entire ninety minutes. Now, I've brought him to lots of matches, hurling and gaelic and whatnot, but to be on the Kop was another world. The big banner was passed over our heads and the players warmed up in front of us. I told him about clapping the other team's keeper and no, I didn't know why, it was just something we did. Some bloke on one side of us wanted to move over to his mate so we all did a little shuffle. People swore profusely (although I must add there was worse language in the Blackrock end of the Park last week for the County Hurling Final - nobody in the Kop called anyone a retarded lanky c#nt).

Beforehand, we went down to the memorials and I told him the stories of each one as the police horses clip clopped by us and then we tried to guess whose French or Spanish reg car was whose in the players' car park. We went for a pint/coke in a local catholic club before that and listened to locals moan and joke about this and that. We bought tat off one of the street guys, had a burger out of a van, I explained to him why we couldn't spend any money in the club shop on account of it going to pay off the bank botherers. It was your basic all around match day experience.

We were lucky, though, we got to go and most don't. My point, from all of this, is that my kid is probably now screwed for life. Going to Anfield, standing on the Kop (well, on the chair of the Kop), screaming out well known facts about the fatness of Steve Bruce's head, clapping the other keeper. He's owned now.

Offline jammy dodger

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2010, 11:11:18 pm »
But do you think that, we, as board frequenters, are an accurate cross-section of Liverpool fans? Isn't there still the core that has the traditional and local connection to the team?

Regardless,  I do agree that The Liverpool Way has been diluted. I'm relatively young at 25, but from what I have seen and read of the past, I have come to the sad conclusion that a lot of what made Liverpool so special throughout our history has been lost in the process of modernity coming around. At a certain point. people with commercial interests gained the most control and at that point the nucleus of a club was lost by the holy trinity (fans, manager, players) to directors, agents, C.O.O's and media pundits.  That, Heysel, and Souness were also watershed moments in our history that have affected us negatively and have tempered the Liverpool way. Sounness was the first to try to change the playing style that had defined our footballing identity and he failed. And Heysel is a sad and disappointing day that tarnished the well deserved good reputation of Liverpool supporters.

Also, the club's ties to the city of Liverpool have been loosened by the globalization of football - and I say that as an OOT.  It is wonderful to have a global fanbase and to be able to go anywhere in the world and invariably end up finding someone to chat about LFC with and it is the way forward if we want to compete at the highest level, but those who have difficulty letting go of the past must understand that if you don't move you don't go anywhere at all. In fact, I would argue that one of the main reasons we are in this mire we find ourselves is because the club waited too long to modernize.

All of this isn't to say that those true supporters don't still exist, they just have to look a little bit harder to find the authenticity of supportership really worthwhile. We've been off the rails for a while, and if you're looking for the Liverpool way of the past to return, I think you will be disappointed. I feel that it is up to the the elders and scousers, the true heart of this club, to make sure that the attitudes that made the liverpool way mean something in the first place are represented in in whatever way possible in this new modern context. Personally, I think the SOS, blackshirts, internet terrorists and protestors are a manifestation of the Liverpool way. It was a quintessential struggle and we had a big part in determining the future of our club, whatever it may be. We now have, with what look like classy owners who are good businessmen at the helm, an opportunity to reset ourselves and get us on a path that vibes with our perspectives - hard working, intelligent, high-tempo pass and move football with some grit.  Roy Hodgson is light years away from this. He must go, his attitude so sharply clashes with the club's ambition and the supporters' nous. We gotta find the right man to replace him and I think we can get back to what we're all about.
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Offline Brooks

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2010, 11:19:30 pm »
I hear ya Hinsey, but it smacks a little bit like the old OOT argument. I was born down the road from Anfield, me Grandad used to mind the cars before doing his time in the pen, I've been a Liverpool supporter for 41 years now - but I'm not in Liverpool now, and it's been a long time since I've live in Bootle. Part of me agrees in the tribe aspect of supporting the local team, it's something OOT's can never really 'get' 100% (and to me, this is where the Liverpool way is born and bred).

10 or so years ago, when RAWK was just a chat room by another name, I would get up at 3am to tune in to a shitty internet radio broadcast, and watch the live text updates on the chat room. It is different now, no doubt (echoing your comments). And I think even over the last few months, the vitriole that being shown towards our caretaker manager......that to me is not the Liverpool way.

Still, at least we're not standing outside of Nando's house in ski masks threatening to off him if he moves to a different club.....

Seriously, how fucking stupid can this get. Chelsea could not be more lucky. Those stupid fuckers. And Gary Neville who's been making sweet love to them all night and GOD DAMMIT I HATE EVERYTHING. FUCK CHELSEA. GOD FUCKING DAMMIT I HATE THEM SO GODDAM MUCH!!!!

Offline Breitner

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2010, 11:21:53 pm »
A fellow Liverpool fan told me today that a United supporter at work, upon hearing the news that Rooney had signed a new contract, loudly proclaimed “We’ll sign Torres next.” A Liverpool fan shouted back “You can have the lazy fucker,” or something to that effect. Every bit as unsettling as our manager seemingly kneeling down for them and, along with the constant parroting of Sky’s warped views, a sad indictment of how the Liverpool Way has slipped.

I think you might be taking things a bit too literally there. Maybe it was just banter? I've heard some of our all time greats called worse before Satellite TV was even invented.
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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2010, 11:22:32 pm »
One thing I do know about the Liverpool Way is that I'm a supporter not a fan.

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2010, 11:23:32 pm »
A question Hinsey - what if you don't believe that the current manager is 'A Liverpool Manager'?

What then? What if you think he was the wrong man appointed by the wrong people at the wrong time for the wrong reasons?

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2010, 11:26:16 pm »
Good post Hinesy.

Me and my kid were on the Kop recently for the Sunderland game, his first time at Anfield.
[...]
We were lucky, though, we got to go and most don't. My point, from all of this, is that my kid is probably now screwed for life. Going to Anfield, standing on the Kop (well, on the chair of the Kop), screaming out well known facts about the fatness of Steve Bruce's head, clapping the other keeper. He's owned now.

That is a wonderful story.
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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2010, 11:33:37 pm »
Very good post Hinesy. It's wierd at the moment because alot of us who served the apprentiship that you describe and know what's expected find ourselves in a position, where we didn't want to criticise the manager, we wanted to give him both time and respect because that is our way but it quickly became obvious that he was so at odds with what we had built, he was in danger of not only further destabilising the club, but destroying what made us different.
 
I dealt with the dilemma by silence for a while, rarely posting but the evidence kept mounting up. I was trying to shut it out, ignore the evidence of my own eyes especially because I'm angry at the kneejerkers, I do blame them for getting rid of Benitez who I thought was building a dynasty, I try to temper the anger but it's there and the last thing I want to do is join their ranks, calling for the managers head but it's not about results for me, but what Hodgson doing and where he wants to take us.
 
So at the moment, those who profess to want to fight for the Liverpool Way find themselves in an uneasy alliance with the kneejerkers both wanting a new manager but for different reasons, the kneejerkers pissed off because we've lost a few games, others horrified at the regression on the pitch and the lack of understanding off it. However, this alliance will come at a cost, that we will have topay in the future and the cost is the encouragement and embolding of the kneejerkers who will feel vindicated in their ignorance and that sadly will be to the detriment of those who remembered it being different because it will be a further nail in the coffin of the Liverpool way.
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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2010, 11:34:36 pm »
The only thing I can't handle is the abuse and name calling towards Hodgson. People have called him "senile", f'ing this and f'ing that. It's disgusting. How would you like it if someone you loved had to endure such abuse. It disgusts me and needs to be clamped down on. Whatever you think of Hodgson, and for the record I never thought he was of the required calibre for the role, I just hope everyone can stay away from outright abuse. That's not much to ask. Hey, and this is me talking to myself as well ... sometimes I do not behave properly, and I suppose it's easy to be a tough guy behind a computer screen, but still  ...
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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2010, 11:35:43 pm »
But do you think that, we, as board frequenters, are an accurate cross-section of Liverpool fans? Isn't there still the core that has the traditional and local connection to the team?

Regardless,  I do agree that The Liverpool Way has been diluted. I'm relatively young at 25, but from what I have seen and read of the past, I have come to the sad conclusion that a lot of what made Liverpool so special throughout our history has been lost in the process of modernity coming around. At a certain point. people with commercial interests gained the most control and at that point the nucleus of a club was lost by the holy trinity (fans, manager, players) to directors, agents, C.O.O's and media pundits.  That, Heysel, and Souness were also watershed moments in our history that have affected us negatively and have tempered the Liverpool way. Sounness was the first to try to change the playing style that had defined our footballing identity and he failed. And Heysel is a sad and disappointing day that tarnished the well deserved good reputation of Liverpool supporters.

Also, the club's ties to the city of Liverpool have been loosened by the globalization of football - and I say that as an OOT.  It is wonderful to have a global fanbase and to be able to go anywhere in the world and invariably end up finding someone to chat about LFC with and it is the way forward if we want to compete at the highest level, but those who have difficulty letting go of the past must understand that if you don't move you don't go anywhere at all. In fact, I would argue that one of the main reasons we are in this mire we find ourselves is because the club waited too long to modernize.

All of this isn't to say that those true supporters don't still exist, they just have to look a little bit harder to find the authenticity of supportership really worthwhile. We've been off the rails for a while, and if you're looking for the Liverpool way of the past to return, I think you will be disappointed. I feel that it is up to the the elders and scousers, the true heart of this club, to make sure that the attitudes that made the liverpool way mean something in the first place are represented in in whatever way possible in this new modern context. Personally, I think the SOS, blackshirts, internet terrorists and protestors are a manifestation of the Liverpool way. It was a quintessential struggle and we had a big part in determining the future of our club, whatever it may be. We now have, with what look like classy owners who are good businessmen at the helm, an opportunity to reset ourselves and get us on a path that vibes with our perspectives - hard working, intelligent, high-tempo pass and move football with some grit.  Roy Hodgson is light years away from this. He must go, his attitude so sharply clashes with the club's ambition and the supporters' nous. We gotta find the right man to replace him and I think we can get back to what we're all about.

Great post, that.
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Offline Black Bull Nova

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2010, 11:38:34 pm »
Needs to be encapsulated in a few key words, people in the early days of football understood this, hence all those crazy latin mottos. 3,4,5 words that sum it up. These days if the message is longer than a tweet, it gets lost.

Passion
Respect
Winning
Unity
Class

All of which are currently missing by the way
aarf, aarf, aarf.

Offline flying red

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2010, 11:50:34 pm »
I went straight into the Paddock for a season and then the Kop before moving on to the main stand. Like you Hinesy, I went my first match when Shanks was in the dug out, Clemence was in goal and Keegan and Toshack were up front.

The problem with Hodgson is that he has come in and operated in a way that's alien to the club's traditions. No manager before has been the big 'I am' bragging about his successful career. That's not the Liverpool way. No manager has slagged off his most skillful players. That's not the Liverpool way. No Liverpool manager ever countenanced selling his star striker to Manure. That's not the Liverpool way.

So if the manager rejects the Liverpool Way, then the Liverpool Way will reject the manager. End of.

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2010, 12:02:48 am »
Good post hinsey.

One thing I want to add, i think you can learn everywhere - even on the internet. You just need to listen a bit first. It's just like in the pub, you don't just jump into any conversation between the older people.You listen, learn, and once you're quite sure you're not going to make a twat of yourself, you open your mouth and say something. It could be the same anywhere else, on the internet, the radio phone-in, whatever. If you are prepared to 'serve yor apprenticeship' listen and learn, you might actually understand some things.


oh, this bit:
This isn’t at all anything about where we’re from, but the simple fact that none of us have to prove our worth in front of our peers in an area where we’re properly judged. Any of us on here can watch/ listen/follow a game and then spout forth our views without being called a right proper dick face to face for not understanding the club.
does that mean personal abuse is now alright on Rawk?   ;)
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Offline Sar75

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2010, 12:04:01 am »
Good post Hinesy.

Me and my kid were on the Kop recently for the Sunderland game, his first time at Anfield. He's nine and a good red in the face of much competition. There are plenty of other kits in his playground, put it that way. Anyway, he was rapt for the entire ninety minutes. Now, I've brought him to lots of matches, hurling and gaelic and whatnot, but to be on the Kop was another world. The big banner was passed over our heads and the players warmed up in front of us. I told him about clapping the other team's keeper and no, I didn't know why, it was just something we did. Some bloke on one side of us wanted to move over to his mate so we all did a little shuffle. People swore profusely (although I must add there was worse language in the Blackrock end of the Park last week for the County Hurling Final - nobody in the Kop called anyone a retarded lanky c#nt).

Beforehand, we went down to the memorials and I told him the stories of each one as the police horses clip clopped by us and then we tried to guess whose French or Spanish reg car was whose in the players' car park. We went for a pint/coke in a local catholic club before that and listened to locals moan and joke about this and that. We bought tat off one of the street guys, had a burger out of a van, I explained to him why we couldn't spend any money in the club shop on account of it going to pay off the bank botherers. It was your basic all around match day experience.

We were lucky, though, we got to go and most don't. My point, from all of this, is that my kid is probably now screwed for life. Going to Anfield, standing on the Kop (well, on the chair of the Kop), screaming out well known facts about the fatness of Steve Bruce's head, clapping the other keeper. He's owned now.

I love your post as it completely echoes what has happened with our children. They are 8 & 5 and have grown up in a household that revolves around Liverpool FC. Daddy goes off to matches (has a season ticket in Lower Centenary) and I go as often as I can with him. We have tried to bring them up, not being force fed to be Liverpool supporters but they have got the bug anyway simply by living in a house that lives and breathes it. Our kids are outnumbered in their Saturday footie club with Chelsea and Man U kits but bless them, our girl knows already that chelsea fans are plastic flag waving idiots and they both have an inherent dislike of Man U fans! Our little girl refused a Standards Chartered shirt and wanted the black Standards Corrupted one like we own and wears hers all the time to try and educate her friends. They took an active interest in the mass emails we sent and can speak pretty eloquently about the owbership battles and the smokescreen that was Rafa leaving 'by mutual consent'.

I think what I am trying to say is that 'The Liverpool Way' is still there and there are plenty of us that are trying to act as custodians and pass this onto our children. It may be diluted and in that regard I agree with Hinesy but I think, or hope, there are still enough of us to keep 'The Liverpool Way' intact and alive - I see that daily on RAWK.



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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2010, 12:10:45 am »
Like you Hinesy, I go back to the Shankly days, my  first time at Anfield was as a nipper to see a certain Mr T Smith make a debut.

My stance on the Liverpool Way was the effortless and consumate professional way that the club used to be seem to be run, such that all us supporters ever had to worry about was simply getting tickets and talking about the match afterwards.

The trick to this was in the hard work, organisation, professionalism, loyalty, superlative skills, talent and genuine altruism, yet also fantastic humility and modest sense of worth present behind the scenes by all involved professionally at the club back in the seemingly never ending days of our fantastic successes

They collectively enabled it to appear as simple as that, really that simple, for us supporters. They always did their bit, so we reciprocated and did ours and it became the 'Liverpool Way', an unwritten contract between the club and us the supporters.

But this work behind the scenes we never really saw, it largely went unrecognised by most of us back then, so from Shankly through to Dalglish, our view was simply of the managers and their achievements, they personified the club and became our totemic figureheads, and while it was all functioning fine and the silverware was collected we never questioned our role and naturally continued to subscribe to our contract, this Liverpool Way.

But in truth, we have only in recent years started to really appreciate the roles of many of the behind the scenes people, like say Robinson, that truly enabled this club to run like a smooth and at times devastating machine rolling over any opposition like a juggernaut. And it was undeniably great days and although not religous, I'm blessed to have lived through that era.

I guess it was after Kenny went, that it seemed to start to go wonky and looking back, at least to me, it was like the organisational dynamics, the balance of power behind the scenes had tipped, that the manager developed more power than was healthy, and this power started to become noticeable unchecked, and as we know, with pretty bad results compared to the previous years of seemingly never ending comfortable dominance and success.

Now there were undoubtedly other external factors involved as well in the early 90's that started to come into play, and I don't mean to diminish their significance, and some might argue convincingly that they had greater effect, but it is indisputable that we started to get disfunctional around about then and slowly this disfunction, this grit in the gears, became more noticeable to those who had eyes and ears and had experience of the smooth running machine of the 70's to 80's..

There was and still is, to use a modern'ish word, a synergy, or a symbiotic relationship required between the Manager and the rest of the normally hidden organisation, and one great thing about the tenure of Rafa, is it really exposed this and its shortcomings and highlighted it's importance to the funtioning of the machine quite starkly.

So I suppose it was only then that it hit home and we really became aware that they, the collective people in the background, the Club, were no longer doing their part of the contract of this Liverpool Way. So although it's personally sad, it's very understandable to me that many supporters now no longer subscribe to this ideal and are critical of the current situation. I'm not going to criticise them for this. They know no different. Why should they not be criticl and voice it in the modern way, the contract was broken by the club unilaterally some time back without telling them.

For a short period when Rafa first started, it looked like it was coming back, or at least to me it seemed there was a chance, only for it to start to fade again quite rapidly once H&G got their hands on us.

But it's not dead yet, it's still faintly breathing but just a bit comatose and with the right care and treatment, it can be brought back to full health again as well as ever.

Over to you NESV.


Apologies for the ramble, it's what a bottle of red does.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 12:17:55 am by The Gulleysucker »
I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

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Offline Redeye

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2010, 12:18:14 am »
I’m a red and hope I know what it is to be that.
So with due respect to the rest of yers, please feel free to continue your club and derive what pleasure you can from it. I have mine and by god I’ll shout loud and long to preserve how it should be.

And I'll be standing with you shoulder to shoulder in the fight.
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Offline Redeye

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2010, 12:22:32 am »
The only thing I can't handle is the abuse and name calling towards Hodgson. People have called him "senile", f'ing this and f'ing that. It's disgusting. How would you like it if someone you loved had to endure such abuse. It disgusts me and needs to be clamped down on. Whatever you think of Hodgson, and for the record I never thought he was of the required calibre for the role, I just hope everyone can stay away from outright abuse. That's not much to ask. Hey, and this is me talking to myself as well ... sometimes I do not behave properly, and I suppose it's easy to be a tough guy behind a computer screen, but still  ...

I was never really happy with the appointment of Hodgson, but some of the personal abuse he's been subjected to on these forums have ALMOST got me rooting for the guy.
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Offline Black Bull Nova

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2010, 12:25:21 am »
Or maybe, the words of Shankly should be turned into Latin

"I've drummed it into our players, time and time again, its a privilege to play for you"

Sums it up for me
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Offline jaygraham

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2010, 12:25:33 am »
Normally i read these posts but don't comment on then cos, well, what can i say to add to that??

On this occasion i am, simply because it will bump the thread and i think its a good analysis of the Liverpool Way and what its now become - and why.

Cheers, hinesy.
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Offline Free Kuyt

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2010, 12:37:37 am »
I like the OP, although I think it does a disservice to RAWK.

Here there are some wise heads and some knowledgable and insightful fans to learn something about football from. Compare it to a couple of other sites (which I won't name) and it's the voice of sanity and moderation.

And as a relative newcomer to contributing to the forum, I do get to read a lot, to hear some of the old timers tell stories and pass on the history of the club, to learn new things about formations, tactics, players, ideas. It's what I love about the place. There is an apprenticeship of sorts here, if you take the time and don't wan't to be labelled a whopper or weapon after your first or 50th post.

But I wonder what Shankly's socialism means when the club is owned by two capitalist leveraged buyout clowns. I wonder what it means when the manager speaks about his LMA award, his experience, his success, but publicly criticises our players, our protests, our expectations.

I can't really define what the Liverpool Way means to me but the fact the club was betrayed by an enemy within, by the clubs supposed 'custodians', made it a principle to aspire to again once they'd gone. And although they're gone now, there's still a lingering aftertaste which needs spitting out before I can get back to unconditional support for the club.

Offline Gainsbarre

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2010, 12:49:38 am »
Faith is GREAT, blind faith could be tremendously great or ridiculously stupid! The Liverpool Way is an inspiration, kind of my faith, not a shield for inept managers or megalomanic football stars...   
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Offline RedHandGang

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2010, 12:55:25 am »
Hinesey the Liverpool Way has been bargained away. The sad fact of the matter is that it was appropriate for an older age, perhaps forever associated with a golden age, that is if the current incumbent manager is to remain. Like you hinted at people have changed. There used to respect for the arl arses now there is none from any snooty nosed kid. This is endemic with how society now seems to work sadly. That is not to say we can't do something about it, and weirdly some of the older oot's and wools who probably have similar views and values to the more experienced support base have their roles to educate the youngsters to how things should be.

Now to the exploitation of what we held dear. Because of the Liverpool Way we now see this being hijacked by Sky and their ilk. I for one don't see how persevering with mediocrity is the Liverpool way and hear cries of we are not Newcastle. No we are not we are Liverpool and Shanks built this club to be a bastion, a place other teams fear to tread, everything else is immaterial and decency of a bygone age.

If NESV buy into the Puslow/Sky versions of "Traditions" and the Liverpool Way what then?
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Offline josemisuncle

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2010, 12:57:55 am »
The Level 3 thread was that apprenticeship IMO.

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2010, 01:07:03 am »
I think it's the internet factor to be honest.  We spend a fair bit of time on here.  And just looking through a couple of pages of threads, quite  lot are about 'Roy out' or in praise of Rafa, etc.

But I've said it before so I'll say it again.  The views on here are not a barometer of the match going support.  It's easy to get depressed reading some stuff on here.  And without a doubt there is some good stuff as well. 

But most posters don't get to games.  And most regular match goers don't frequent forums.

I agree that the 'Liverpool Way' is diluted.  But it isn't 'dead'.

I steam on here sometimes after coming back from the game and check some threads when the game would have been going on, and some posts are like essays.  Full of supposed tactical analysis.

Sorry, but if you have time to write essay-type posts, slagging Carra et al,  when the game is on, how can you possibly be watching the game?


Offline PJG

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2010, 02:00:41 am »
But does the Liverpool way have to remain static forever?  Does this nostalgic dream of returning to this ever-present Liverpool way in a completely commercialised world of football as opposed to a much simpler time in football still come to people? This idea that a solid never changing tradition continually loses its origins as the scratch that it’s made on the wall of LFC fades so much that looks as if it’s indistinguishable from the wall’s grain.  Where this certain ‘system’ will be dreamt about and craved for in 20 years time when we're playing for an 82 year Hodgson.

I’d like to think that the Liverpool way is always moving, is always changing, is always in transition, as we learn from our mistakes, and revel in our success.  I’d like to think that Rafa Benitez contributed to the Liverpool way rather just becoming part of it. He was the man who taught many that nothing is impossible.

You talk about the fans listening on the radio and those watching shitty streams on the internet praying that the picture doesn’t inevitably freeze every time something interesting happens, but doesn’t this show the passion of the reds.    These fans that would do anything to catch a glimpse of the team they love.  To many, Anfield is Mecca (No disrespect intended).  To some it is Heaven.

Yes it’s different from yesteryear, but doesn’t this mystical tradition have to evolve.   The world as we know it is becoming lazier by the second.  I’m becoming lazier by the second and I’m only young.  Technology has evolved.  Liverpool has evolved.  But it’s the reason why a Liverpool fan in the middle of Africa can support and cherish the same team as a fan from Canada.  It is as much socialism, as it is football.  Everyone is in the same situation in the end and everyone has the same vocation.

Sure we have former players, current players and even fans doing things that are against what is means to be LFC at its core.  But in my opinion that has enhanced the Liverpool way.  The mission to educate the masses of the crimes of the s*n be it through word of mouth or through blogs being at the extreme of what it means to be a Liverpool FC supporter. The constant repetitive bullshit coming from the likes of Redknapp and Lawrenson, serving to strengthen the fans ties to the club as they passionately defend it.

Sure now and again, most Liverpool fans air their vents when thing don’t go to plan.  And as such, difference in opinion arises and people enter the world of amateur punditry. But as they learn about the game, learn from their mistakes (taking the piss out of the team and managers for instance), and gain further knowledge into Liverpool FC, then don’t they become entitled to their opinion? All opinions are voiced for what they see is the best for the club.  As what Darwin would say, sooner or later the really passionate fans come to the fore, leaving those who only support Liverpool only by word in the back but allowing them to see the beauty of the club if the time comes.

I believe the Liverpool way must continue to evolve with the fans; otherwise we lose any connection with the club itself as time passes.  We have a history we can be proud of.  But history never stops.  In my time, we’ve gone through what some would consider a drought.  To me, -as much as I would love to win the league- It’s just as important to Liverpool’s history than our successful years.  It makes us collectively unique if that make sense.

I can understand where you’re coming from.  The core should be kept . But for me as Dave Mitchell would say ‘there is still everything to play for and forever to play it in’. Sorry for the rant.
 
« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 05:20:55 am by PJG »

Offline Hinesy

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2010, 02:55:22 am »
Some fantastic posts here that put mine to shame. I'll reply in more depth tomorrow but some of these replies give us all hope.
Yep.

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2010, 03:07:36 am »
Some fantastic posts here that put mine to shame. I'll reply in more depth tomorrow but some of these replies give us all hope.

FFS, dont be ashamed of calling things as they are like you did in your post. imho, that is just what the Liverpool Way means.

It's a multi-faceted woman, love and pain. It's standing together and never walking alone. It's taking the p**s out of rival fans, it's crying in our cups. Think of Istanbul. Think of the cancers, think of that dreaded mutual consent bollocks.  It's a manager sitting down to let supporters see a match. It's a bewildering new manager whose ways, I for one am yet to understand.

Above all it is many many supporters who stand and say this is Liverpool, my Club, my way.

Some of the posts have the saying Liverpool, do you think we will leave you dying.  Recall the words. A tale of two lads, friends from childhood. Fast forward to a war zone. They still stand with each other.  That's the Liverpool Way. Through Golden dawns, changes, whilst there's a living Red, there's a Liverpool Way. Never static but always changing, adapting. Always, hinesy, always The Liverpool Way

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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2010, 03:31:37 am »


I loved reading that.

And you're right - Rafa did jog our collective memories and made us believe that we once more had a manager with the wit, wisdom, cunning, yet the humility and integrity, to return the club to the 'Liverpool Way'. As Yorky said in another post, we might argue about what 'it' means, but we all know when its been violated.

It's the reason why we (auld arses if you like) 'know' - intuitively and instinctively - that Roy hasn't a clue what 'it' means. And that has nothing to do with results - the results just bring everything into sharper focus.
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Re: The inevitable dilution of the Liverpool Way.
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2010, 07:09:15 am »
Like you Hinesy, I go back to the Shankly days, my  first time at Anfield was as a nipper to see a certain Mr T Smith make a debut.

brilliant