Topic: Re: Liverpool Women FC (home vs Chelsea - 01/05 - 19:00 ko) (*)

[Mighty_Red]

It's the correct decision based on the fact they curtailed the season and I don't think we can have any complaints - we have not been good enough thus far and the arguments for relegating the bottom 3 in the PL apply here too. We might've got out of it but we'd messed up chances to do that beforehand.

That said, I think the decision to end the season early may end up being detrimental to the women's game and I'm still puzzled to why they would do this. At the end of the day, no club in the WSL makes much from the turnstile so I'm pretty sure the bulk comes from TV, sponsorship (albeit not much) and from the clubs themselves.

Even with the extra costs of testing etc., this was a shop window for the game and also a statement on the importance of the league format as a basis for the domestic game. By ending early when other elite sport is returning in some form, the WSL have basically admitted they are not elite, not that professional and it's not terribly important.

Hopefully this will be a wake up call to the board - the team need to be backed properly even if that means the rung below the top 3 teams.

[Samie]

When the new training complex is designed to incorporate evrey Liverpool age group bar the Women's team it tells you all you need to know that we don't class the woman's team as Liverpool FC. Not in the way it should be.

[Kopout]

Jepson should be sacked after that with 1 win all season. bet she stays on, continue to perform shite in championship and end up getting sacked anyways

[kellan]

I'm going to go against the rest. It's the wrong decision. Especially for the interests of the league itself. Why on earth they want to relegate a club who can continue to be funded to WSL standards when there is every possibility one who gets to stay in may fold over the impact of the pandemic is beyond me. There aren't enough teams in the division either; it could easily have accomodated Villa and even another too without having them take somebody's place.

[CraigDS]

I'm going to go against the rest. It's the wrong decision. Especially for the interests of the league itself. Why on earth they want to relegate a club who can continue to be funded to WSL standards when there is every possibility one who gets to stay in may fold over the impact of the pandemic is beyond me. There aren't enough teams in the division either; it could easily have accomodated Villa and even another too without having them take somebody's place.

Then surely if this happens then we get promoted up again? However this should only happen if they fold, rather than keeping us there in case they do.

I agree the league maybe could accommodate more, but then until fixtures are held regularly without being called off it seems pointless to add more games to the mix.

[Fordy]

When the new training complex is designed to incorporate evrey Liverpool age group bar the Women's team it tells you all you need to know that we don't class the woman's team as Liverpool FC. Not in the way it should be.

Does it? I think the fact that the Men's PL and even Championship is doing all it can to get football going again highlights the problem.

All the clubs in the women's league are big clubs and could have afforded the testing.

Until the women's game is taken seriously why should Liverpool put all their efforts in. Didn't UTD only join the league a few years ago?

Hold back then when the game gets more popular then invest more is the right thing to do.

[Samie]

The heck you on about mate? We were back to back champions not long ago.  We clearly not invested enough to keep competitive with other teams.  Liverpool Women are treated as an afterthought and it should not be like that.

[kellan]

Then surely if this happens then we get promoted up again? However this should only happen if they fold, rather than keeping us there in case they do.

Even if you don't frame it against the possibillity of clubs folding, it still makes no sense to relegate one who is capable of continuing with full time opperation during a period of major financial uncertainty. The sensible business move is to retain the money that's already in the division. There is enough of it going to be lost without also dropping clubs on top of that.

And I'm not saying any of this because it's us, I would have argued for no relegation regardless of who the club was. If one can still meet the financial minimums, the circumstances necessitates their presence.

[cheshiremike]

I tried to watch a couple of matches but fuck me the standard is bad.

Standard of goalkeepers is scary

 

[Red Beret]

I tried to watch a couple of matches but fuck me the standard is bad.

Standard of goalkeepers is scary

 

Watched us lose to Everton at Anfield. We played decently enough, but the clanger our keeper dropped for their goal would have made Pickford proud.

[gazzalfc]

Hard to see there being any other option. It is a league that struggles to complete their games in a normal season, Players from other teams being furloughed. To even attempt to prevent relegation would have been foolish and hypocritical considering our approach to the 1st team.

Even if the season were to attempt to finish, Liverpool have let some of their contracts expire (including 2GK's) so would have been an even more impossible task.

As for Liverpool Women, there cannot be many complaints considering how the previous half season has gone. It is a club mismanaged from top to bottom and Peter Moore needs to take as much responsibility as the players and manager.

From a PR perspective a Liverpool team has been relegated from the top division for the 1st time since 1954.

How the club moves forward with the womens team is going to be really interesting. Do they hide behind the virus as the main excuse and let the club wind down into mediocrity. Or do they really feel the embarrassment on this 'one club for all' moniker and invest and fight for instant promotion and then continue to invest to become a top team again in womens football. 

[kellan]

How the club moves forward with the womens team is going to be really interesting. Do they hide behind the virus as the main excuse and let the club wind down into mediocrity. Or do they really feel the embarrassment on this 'one club for all' moniker and invest and fight for instant promotion and then continue to invest to become a top team again in womens football.

The club statement starts and ends with corona. I had to check I was reading the right one.

Nothing which comes out of the club won't have also been said two years ago. They will have a hard time convincing anybody who was around that summer that they genuinely mean what they say in response to this.

[Mighty_Red]

Even if you don't frame it against the possibillity of clubs folding, it still makes no sense to relegate one who is capable of continuing with full time opperation during a period of major financial uncertainty. The sensible business move is to retain the money that's already in the division. There is enough of it going to be lost without also dropping clubs on top of that.

And I'm not saying any of this because it's us, I would have argued for no relegation regardless of who the club was. If one can still meet the financial minimums, the circumstances necessitates their presence.

From a sporting perspective, I can't see any other option than keeping relegation. I'm not sure the WSL is ready for more teams at this stage.

One thing I'm trying to work out is what revenue the clubs are currently losing out on and why they wouldn't consider restarting season in order to get that revenue? Gate receipts must be tiny so it's not like L1 & L2 where they literally survive on it. I can only assume that they have already earned the bulk of their money for the season and it would simply be a loss leader to complete more matches. Like I said before, the bold move would've been to try and get interest in the game now whilst the Men's game in out of action. If they wait till August/September, the thirst for any type of football will have subsided since the PL & CL will have been completed and fans will simply look forward to the new PL season.

It feels to be that the WSL have been trying to act like a big league without having the commercial foundations to do so and this will catch them out big time.

[Samie]

Considering we have a Yank owner in John W Henry you'd have thought he and FSG would be interested in pumping money and resources into the women's game.

[jillcwhomever]

Hard to see there being any other option. It is a league that struggles to complete their games in a normal season, Players from other teams being furloughed. To even attempt to prevent relegation would have been foolish and hypocritical considering our approach to the 1st team.

Even if the season were to attempt to finish, Liverpool have let some of their contracts expire (including 2GK's) so would have been an even more impossible task.

As for Liverpool Women, there cannot be many complaints considering how the previous half season has gone. It is a club mismanaged from top to bottom and Peter Moore needs to take as much responsibility as the players and manager.

From a PR perspective a Liverpool team has been relegated from the top division for the 1st time since 1954.

How the club moves forward with the womens team is going to be really interesting. Do they hide behind the virus as the main excuse and let the club wind down into mediocrity. Or do they really feel the embarrassment on this 'one club for all' moniker and invest and fight for instant promotion and then continue to invest to become a top team again in womens football.

I'm going to be controversial here and ask the question, is the interest really there for a women's team? I'm not even sure its there for the youth team at times with some supporters. It's why I am more open minded about whether it continues. Just because others are doing it, does it mean we have to go the same way? I've never been convinced the will is there to do it properly, if it isn't what is the point?

[CraigDS]

Considering we have a Yank owner in John W Henry you'd have thought he and FSG would be interested in pumping money and resources into the women's game.

If an entire league of teams isn't doing it then it's pointless just a handful of teams doing so. The league needs to become popular for it to be worth a side continually pumping money into it.

[Morgana]

Watched us lose to Everton at Anfield. We played decently enough, but the clanger our keeper dropped for their goal would have made Pickford proud.

Me too. Couldn’t believe she dropped Rinsola. Jepson is a lovely lass but am not sure she’s the right level for Liverpool.

[cheshiremike]

Considering we have a Yank owner in John W Henry you'd have thought he and FSG would be interested in pumping money and resources into the women's game.

Wouldn't make financial sense as no money in women's football.

[RK7]

The cost of finishing the season would have sent a few clubs under I would have thought, financially there is just no money in the womens game, they're all relying on the mens team.

[kellan]

From a sporting perspective, I can't see any other option than keeping relegation. I'm not sure the WSL is ready for more teams at this stage.

One thing I'm trying to work out is what revenue the clubs are currently losing out on and why they wouldn't consider restarting season in order to get that revenue? Gate receipts must be tiny so it's not like L1 & L2 where they literally survive on it. I can only assume that they have already earned the bulk of their money for the season and it would simply be a loss leader to complete more matches. Like I said before, the bold move would've been to try and get interest in the game now whilst the Men's game in out of action. If they wait till August/September, the thirst for any type of football will have subsided since the PL & CL will have been completed and fans will simply look forward to the new PL season.

It feels to be that the WSL have been trying to act like a big league without having the commercial foundations to do so and this will catch them out big time.

It's the cost of the virus testing. Because of the likeihood the pandemic is going to affect next season also, it is felt there just isn't the money to cover the cost for both this season and the next one (or however many). It seems all would rather ensure future seasons can go ahead.

[kellan]

I'm going to be controversial here and ask the question, is the interest really there for a women's team? I'm not even sure its there for the youth team at times with some supporters. It's why I am more open minded about whether it continues. Just because others are doing it, does it mean we have to go the same way? I've never been convinced the will is there to do it properly, if it isn't what is the point?

We had very good gates comparitively when we were winning, despite the distance to Widnes. Attendances dropped off as our fortunes did. The worse we got, the less inclinced people where to make the journies. We have never been located well enough, it's frustratingly not possible to be so. But there is nothing to suggest that, had we built on our two title wins, our attendances couldn't have continued to be good.

[jillcwhomever]

We had very good gates comparitively when we were winning, despite the distance to Widnes. Attendances dropped off as our fortunes did. The worse we got, the less inclinced people where to make the journies. We have never been located well enough, it's frustratingly not possible to be so. But there is nothing to suggest that, had we built on our two title wins, our attendances couldn't have continued to be good.

Thanks for that, I have to admit I'd not really followed the women's team even in the early days. Either way, important decision's need to be made by the club now as to how they continue this.

[Mighty_Red]

It's the cost of the virus testing. Because of the likeihood the pandemic is going to affect next season also, it is felt there just isn't the money to cover the cost for both this season and the next one (or however many). It seems all would rather ensure future seasons can go ahead.

Thanks, I didn't realise the cost of testing would make such a difference. I do think we are being optimistic if they think by culling this season, they save next season. I think the level of interest will drop massively by the time the new season kicks in and clubs will be going to the wall regardless.

[kellan]

Thanks, I didn't realise the cost of testing would make such a difference. I do think we are being optimistic if they think by culling this season, they save next season. I think the level of interest will drop massively by the time the new season kicks in and clubs will be going to the wall regardless.

I think somebody calcuated the total cost for finishing the season at £3mil. Which might sound like pennies in comparison to some football sums, but £3mil in the WSL is equvilent to Bristol's entire operating budget for six seasons. Nobody will have planned for the additional expense; and even if divided by 12 clubs and potentially partially covered by the FA too, it's still an additional expense nobody planned for.

Presumably the expense will be higher for a full season as that £3mil will presumably have only covered the remaining nine games/two month period. I don't know who pays for next season. But this is why I was making a point up thread about it being a smart idea to have a WSL full of as any clubs as possible who are financially secure enough to afford to be involved.

[RK7]

I think somebody calcuated the total cost for finishing the season at £3mil. Which might sound like pennies in comparison to some football sums, but £3mil in the WSL is equvilent to Bristol's entire operating budget for six seasons. Nobody will have planned for the additional expense; and even if divided by 12 clubs and potentially partially covered by the FA too, it's still an additional expense nobody planned for.

Presumably the expense will be higher for a full season as that £3mil will presumably have only covered the remaining nine games/two month period. I don't know who pays for next season. But this is why I was making a point up thread about it being a smart idea to have a WSL full of as any clubs as possible who are financially secure enough to afford to be involved.

Most are kept afloat by the mens section though, not necessarily there on merit which is wrong in my opinion.

[kellan]

Most are kept afloat by the mens section though, not necessarily there on merit which is wrong in my opinion.

But how do teams become self-sufficient if they aren't first made attractive enough to do things like sell tickets and secure sponsors in order to create the revenue streams which make them become self-sufficient?

You need the initial investment from somewhere. And no, you're not going to make it back straight away. That's how every business starts.

[Mighty_Red]

You need the initial investment from somewhere. And no, you're not going to make it back straight away. That's how every business starts.

This is why I think finishing the season should've been the aim - the business opportunity was there - after all, if you can't get people interested with a title race on when there is less sport overall and more people at home then you never will.

[RK7]

But how do teams become self-sufficient if they aren't first made attractive enough to do things like sell tickets and secure sponsors in order to create the revenue streams which make them become self-sufficient?

You need the initial investment from somewhere. And no, you're not going to make it back straight away. That's how every business starts.

I agree you need investment, every club at every level requires that to grow. But every team should earn the right to compete at the highest level. Take Southampton Women, they're doing it the right way, they had all the infrastructure that Man United had, but choose to grow from the ground up, United chose to buy their way in.

[kellan]

I agree you need investment, every club at every level requires that to grow. But every team should earn the right to compete at the highest level. Take Southampton Women, they're doing it the right way, they had all the infrastructure that Man United had, but choose to grow from the ground up, United chose to buy their way in.

At least they chose to buy their way into the Championship and not straight into the WSL, as another Manchester team did. And on that occassion, the FA really did just boot someone out to make room first.

I've never been of the opinion that entirely discounting financial ability is the right way to go about building a women's league. I think the important bit is finding the appropriate balance between sporting merit and financial ability - and as the pyramid develops, what it needs at any one time is naturally going to change. There have been periods when it did make more sense to let club budget dictate who played where (as unsavoury as that may be), as well as periods when it didn't need to be that way and sporting merit could have been ruling things. I do think there have been times when the FA have leaned too far in one direction. And been too far in the wrong direction for the moment. I don't think you will find anybody who would say they've not made errors along the way. It has been quite a journey to this point. And today's decision is just the latest installment. I expect that, in time, what they've decided will be looked back on as being a mistake too.

[RK7]

At least they chose to buy their way into the Championship and not straight into the WSL, as another Manchester team did. And on that occassion, the FA really did just boot someone out to make room first.

I've never been of the opinion that entirely discounting financial ability is the right way to go about building a women's league. I think the important bit is finding the appropriate balance between sporting merit and financial ability - and as the pyramid develops, what it needs at any one time is naturally going to change. There have been periods when it did make more sense to let club budget dictate who played where (as unsavoury as that may be), as well as periods when it didn't need to be that way and sporting merit could have been ruling things. I do think there have been times when the FA have leaned too far in one direction. And been too far in the wrong direction for the moment. I don't think you will find anybody who would say they've not made errors along the way. It has been quite a journey to this point. And today's decision is just the latest installment. I expect that, in time, what they've decided will be looked back on as being a mistake too.

What are the mistakes in your opinion? Relegating Us (Liverpool)?

[anfieldpurch]

For me it seems bizarre that the WSL is the only league where they are using relegation. They have withdrawn relegation from the rest of the female pyramid. Either have relegation across all tiers or none.

[kellan]

What are the mistakes in your opinion? Relegating Us (Liverpool)?

Over the years? I felt relegation was introduced too soon, I didn't (and still don't) see the logic in having clubs take backward steps through relegation while the league is still trying to take forward steps. There were times when the league was not at the optimal number of clubs but rather than keep promoting into the league until that number was reached, there were clubs dropping divisions to a lower standard of operation to start their work all over again. Take Everton for example. They were relegated at a time when it wasn't necessary. It set them back. It set the league back to lose a club of their standing. It even set us back, the Merseyside Derby has never recovered.

The general make-up of the divisions has been off; they have been too imbalanced, had too many in one and not enough in another. They've had the cut-offs in the wrong place; leaving clear divide in the middle of a table because teams should have been in a different division, which in turn made promotion/relegation even harder to contend with. They've had odd numbers of clubs (the Championship is currently at 11).

The scheduling of the leagues hasn't been right; they've ran at the wrong times of the year throwing up all kinds of clashes with UEFA's and FIFA's schedules. The fixture lists have been stop/start with gaping holes everywhere.

And yes. I believe relegating us is a mistake. As is not increasing the number of clubs in the WSL. And levelling up the Championship to 12 clubs. Things have always operated on a licence basis and the FA have had no problem resetting the licences whenever they thought it suitable. This was the perfect time for a reset of sorts, it would have been more justifiable than many of the past times. But they've chosen to do something else entirely.

[RedForeverTT]

I have seen our woman's highlights on BBC and to be honest, they were not very good.

There just isn't enough money in the woman's game to make FSG interested in investing.

[RK7]

Over the years? I felt relegation was introduced too soon, I didn't (and still don't) see the logic in having clubs take backward steps through relegation while the league is still trying to take forward steps. There were times when the league was not at the optimal number of clubs but rather than keep promoting into the league until that number was reached, there were clubs dropping divisions to a lower standard of operation to start their work all over again. Take Everton for example. They were relegated at a time when it wasn't necessary. It set them back. It set the league back to lose a club of their standing. It even set us back, the Merseyside Derby has never recovered.

The general make-up of the divisions has been off; they have been too imbalanced, had too many in one and not enough in another. They've had the cut-offs in the wrong place; leaving clear divide in the middle of a table because teams should have been in a different division, which in turn made promotion/relegation even harder to contend with. They've had odd numbers of clubs (the Championship is currently at 11).

The scheduling of the leagues hasn't been right; they've ran at the wrong times of the year throwing up all kinds of clashes with UEFA's and FIFA's schedules. The fixture lists have been stop/start with gaping holes everywhere.

And yes. I believe relegating us is a mistake. As is not increasing the number of clubs in the WSL. And levelling up the Championship to 12 clubs. Things have always operated on a licence basis and the FA have had no problem resetting the licences whenever they thought it suitable. This was the perfect time for a reset of sorts, it would have been more justifiable than many of the past times. But they've chosen to do something else entirely.

Thanks. I was interested in what mistakes they are making now, personally I can't agree with all your points but can understand the reasoning behind them. Liverpool Women have been really unlucky with the timing of relegation being introduced but on the other hand, there are dozens of better run Womens teams, Liverpool should have done  a lot better in that Division, looking at the other clubs.

I've been involved with a few clubs lower in the Pyramid as well as having a small insight into the running of a WSL team, they have all been incredibly committed and well run with player pathways, lots of Grassroots involvement and so on. Some of these clubs have a genuine chance of progress to the Championship or even the WSL, I love that about the womens game.

[Welshred]

RSK you talked about Southampton and them doing it the right way and in a way I can agree with you but they're also a club who are doing well now they have appropriate funding. Before they became affiliated with Southampton, which they did to get their tier 1 RTC status for their youth teams, they were Hampshire FA and were one of the poorest teams quality wise in the womens football pyramid, playing on horrific pitches. After the Southampton affiliation that stopped they started playing at Southampton's training ground and the wages they were offering their staff at that level completely blew other clubs out of the water. What they paid physios for example was two and a half times per match what Arsenal paid their physios. I've seen job adverts for their first team physio position where the salary is better than some WSL teams!

They improved exponentially as they competed as Southampton and if they eventually get to the WSL then it'll be because they've had very good funding from a mens team who have backed them. Liverpool are the complete opposite of that.

[RK7]

RSK you talked about Southampton and them doing it the right way and in a way I can agree with you but they're also a club who are doing well now they have appropriate funding. Before they became affiliated with Southampton, which they did to get their tier 1 RTC status for their youth teams, they were Hampshire FA and were one of the poorest teams quality wise in the womens football pyramid, playing on horrific pitches. After the Southampton affiliation that stopped they started playing at Southampton's training ground and the wages they were offering their staff at that level completely blew other clubs out of the water. What they paid physios for example was two and a half times per match what Arsenal paid their physios. I've seen job adverts for their first team physio position where the salary is better than some WSL teams!

They improved exponentially as they competed as Southampton and if they eventually get to the WSL then it'll be because they've had very good funding from a mens team who have backed them. Liverpool are the complete opposite of that.

Liverpool have RTC teams at every age group and a team in the WSL2 (U21s). Southampton do play their home  games at Staplewood but that doesn't make sense to me, general public are not allowed in to watch. Interesting about the physio wage, is that solely for the first team or do they work with the RTC too?

[Welshred]

Liverpool have RTC teams at every age group and a team in the WSL2 (U21s). Southampton do play their home  games at Staplewood but that doesn't make sense to me, general public are not allowed in to watch. Interesting about the physio wage, is that solely for the first team or do they work with the RTC too?

Just first team, they may have some RTC involvement but usually they just act as a contact/mentor for the RTC physios, it's usually the U21s physio who heads up the Academy/RTC operations, well at least it does at some other clubs.

[gazzalfc]

Nice comment by Neil from The Anfield Wrap today on the lack of women's football content on their site. Glad to see it change in future

[24/7]

Nice comment by Neil from The Anfield Wrap today on the lack of women's football content on their site. Glad to see it change in future

If only we had a few talented writers to hand on RAWK who could offer TAW erudite and erstwhile analysis of the women's game.........hmm..........

[Kopout]

Me too. Couldn’t believe she dropped Rinsola. Jepson is a lovely lass but am not sure she’s the right level for Liverpool.

she isn't. nobody talks about the performance on the pitch just the money. if lfc had decent manager with these players would be midtable side cause top 3 aside rest are shite