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The Anfield Choo-Choo Thread

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Peter McGurk:

--- Quote from: Alan_X on October 28, 2021, 08:33:05 am ---Split into a new thread.

--- End quote ---


Yay

Al 666:

--- Quote from: Peter McGurk on October 28, 2021, 07:27:14 am ---I brought up the 7-year old thread to illustrate how stale the debate was. It has been done to death. The costs (and consequences for other users such as the port) are such that no football club could possibly think about it.

But if you want to show me where I’m wrong about how it connects with the south of the city (it doesn’t) or with the WCML (into Lime Street - it doesn’t) or any of the other really good reasons how unlikely it is to happen for passenger transport (however desirable it might be) or how impossible it is for the stadium to pay for it, then maybe best if it could be moved to a separate thread and we can have a nice chat about trains.

--- End quote ---

It is far from a stale debate though. One of the biggest issues with the viability of the Canada Dock branch Line has always been its lack of electrification. In the coming years that will become a moot point. The likelihood of fossil fuel trains continuing in the future are virtually zero.

Given we have left the EU and with the need to combat climate change then the CDBL becomes more viable by the day. Battery hybrid trains powered by clean renewable energy is clearly the future.

The bit I don't understand is your insistence that a Stadium has to somehow fund a passenger line. The economic argument for passengers on the CDBL is likely to become overwhelming.

As for the West Coast Main Line maybe you should have a look at the two Eccleston interchanges. They provide a link to the WCML with no need to head into Lime Street.

Peter McGurk:

--- Quote from: Al 666 on October 28, 2021, 10:28:25 pm ---It is far from a stale debate though. One of the biggest issues with the viability of the Canada Dock branch Line has always been its lack of electrification. In the coming years that will become a moot point. The likelihood of fossil fuel trains continuing in the future are virtually zero.

Given we have left the EU and with the need to combat climate change then the CDBL becomes more viable by the day. Battery hybrid trains powered by clean renewable energy is clearly the future.

The bit I don't understand is your insistence that a Stadium has to somehow fund a passenger line. The economic argument for passengers on the CDBL is likely to become overwhelming.

As for the West Coast Main Line maybe you should have a look at the two Eccleston interchanges. They provide a link to the WCML with no need to head into Lime Street.

--- End quote ---

I enjoy a natter around playing with trains as much as the next person who enjoys a natter about playing with trains but this is a football forum and a stadium thread inside a football forum, so if it's not about how it would help a stadium, I'd take it elsewhere - plenty of choo-choo forums about.

As it happens, I disagree with you about the future of the CDBL - you have to think about why it was abandoned to freight and what has changed in the interim to consider a re-look. I'm all for greener, public transport but there just isn't the working population to support opening seven or eight stations - with batteries or not. I'd seriously doubt any feasibility study got past this first stumbling block - not enough demand or not enough foreseeable future demand but even if it did...

More to the point and more to the point of stadiums, it doesn't have the connectivity for fans from both near and far and if it could, it would cost five arms and six legs. I can take you through the issues one by one if you like but there's more to it than electrification or batteries. Electrification would help freight sure but there's a lot else to consider for passengers.

I know there's at least one 'connection' at Earlestown but that's single track i think and the route through Huyton has pretty low spare capacity and I don't recall it being suitable for the sort of trains that make a difference from real distance (I believe I went through it once on a super-slow, late night diversion from somewhere south but i might have dreamt that).

Not to mention last time I looked, there's only one line through the tunnel at Olive Mount Chord, because the tunnel wasn't big enough for containers unless the line ran down the centre line (massive, massive cost to change that, ditch the last freight line into the docks altogether or widen a 200m tunnel with a large-ish roundabout on top of it... even as a local commuter line) - hence the focus on WCML via Runcorn towards or into Lime Street. Proper heavy rail with proper trains already scheduled to run on it.

Even that means either a spectacularly expensive and probably geometrically impossible rail flyover directly into the CDBL or crossing commuter rail traffic before Edge Hill (engineering works), re-opening a platform at Edge Hill before the Waterloo tunnel and/ or running further into Lime Street to make the journey attractive to other users and hence viable and 'reversing' back through Edge Hill and onto the CDBL. But what do you do with the trains during the game (because there's nowhere to go at the other end - it being well, a 'branch' line). Back to Lime Street and forward again to Huyton, the North and Manchester or the Midlands and South?

And that connection into town at the dock end?  There isn't one (I read there used to be a link from Alexandra Dock to Southport but I haven’t found it*). The line runs under the Northern line and straight into the docks - so again, very significant if not massive engineering and cost to get up the level and connect with Sandhills etc. A really difficult piece for the viability of it all, even as a local commuter line - let alone for the added bonus of serving a stadium.

Then there's cost of signalling and safety and new stations and whatever else was on that list etc etc...



* ok, Super choo now. This is possibly the potential link/ points from CDBL to Southport line - north of Bank Hall.




Peter McGurk:
This being so long in the tooth, I thought I would update myself and came across this pretty upbeat report from Network Rail (2020) https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Liverpool-City-Region-Strategic-Rail-Study-2020.pdf.

To be honest, I was kind of hoping the CDBL was there and up and coming but despite the many other forward-looking plans and projections in the report, regrettably it has been reduced to a single mention with the words "Bootle Branch Line" amongst several others (pp19), where "discussions will be taken forward according to stakeholder views" and an indistinct reference to "route 20" on a map that doesn't join up the dots - about as far in the long grass as you can get and the same distance from helping move people in and out of a stadium.

Anyway. As said before, no one has tested the various claims and assertions that council have said that a rail link is a must or have gone and got an actual set of conditions to an actual application for any more capacity than the current application that says there must be a rail link. Thing is, lots of people say lots of things without the planning process proper.

And anyway… there’s better, more cost effective of getting where it needs to be - including (electric) buses.


***


Another Choo moment: just picking up on the references to re-opening the Wapping Tunnel in the Network Rail report, the focus at the minute appears to be solving existing capacity problems on the underground at Central Station and at Lime Street by linking trains to the West (ie., on the Wirral) with those on the East - a kind of Liverpool Crossrail if you like https://merseytravel.s3.amazonaws.com/Content/Freedom%20of%20Information/Disclosure%20Log/2017/December/RSN16726---EIR-Request---Wapping-Tunnel-Feasbility-Study.pdf

CDBL nowhere to be seen on that radar

G a r y:
I made the mistake yesterday of booking in to see the League Cup with the kids not long after Everton's match had ended. When I drive the match usually take the M57 and then the East Lancs. Once I realised my error I was surprised by the 'lack' of match traffic moving away from Goodison, it's usually gridlocked.

Must have been about 38k and the match yesterday and ours is 54k so it makes sense I suppose. I can't help but think another 7k seats at Anfield is just going to make matters even worse.

That train line that is still in use today that comes from Broadgreen and turns off before Wavetree Tech really needs looking at again I think. It goes behind Tuebrook Market where there is surely enough room for a train station and there is also loads of room off Utting Avenue as well. Am I right in thinking that once it reaches Kirkdale in turns around and heads towards town?

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