Topic: Do marches achieve anything

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I'm fairly interested in Politics and I want Labour to be power.

I donate to several charities like Greenpeace, Amnesty International and the like, hoping that my small contribution can go towards making a difference.

I also respond to fund raisers when there has been a humanitarian disaster - throwing a few quid in to hopefully help improve stuff.

I have no real idea if the money I donate does help, but I hope so.


I've never been on a march and I'm not sure if they actually have an impact. I've seen some tremendous efforts made by really committed people and again I hope that it makes a difference. I hope that it changes stuff.

But I'm not convinced. I think it may depend on the Government. I've seen marches in the UK and abroad that have led to government brutality via the police or armed forces and I'm not sure if it actually sways the governments or makes a difference.


I'm a complete layman in this regard, but I know on RAWK there are plenty of politically clued-up and passionate people that have and do march. What is your take on it? Does it work? What is the main purpose? Is it a gathering or is it an important political and social tool in this day and age?

I'm genuinely interested on the take and I don't think we've talked about it before, so thought it might be an interesting subject to discuss..

[ianburns252]

I very much think that they can do, but that it is highly influenced by what the march is for and what approach the march takes.

Take the recent marches and activity by XR in London for example - these appear to have put people who I know off that group, but without reducing their desire to see active change to help reverse the problems with the climate seen.

The view seems to be that the people on the marches are making it about themselves and have almost lost sight of what they are trying to achieve.

Marches do prove successful in raising awareness of less known concerns and depending on the tone of them I think they would shape the person's opinion of them.

What you also see though on more controversial marches is that they can push people's views away from the marchers - see things like the defund the police marches, or the Tommy Robinson ones where the behaviour and the reason for the march divide opinion and those of a neutral opinion beforehand would seem to tend to move to being against the thing being marched for.

So no real answer there other than they do SOMETHING...

[Bobsackamano]

I recently went on the anti arms fair march in town, i understand the arms fair is not illegal however i dont like the business as a whole and think it causes too many problems around the world which costs us more to clear up that we actually make from selling the stuff. Thats without even bringing into it the impact on the people in other nations in wrecked lives and countries.

So i went down and joined in. However when we got to the cathedral the crowd was basically all just shouting "fuck the tories" "labour and tories same old story" "fuck labour" and it didnt even seem to be much about the arms fair at all. To be fair most of the speakers remained on the actual point but the whole thing was just a gathering of far left tribes who regarded anyone not fully aligned with ALL of their politics as lowlifes.

I personally felt very uncomfortable and soon departed, i doubt i will go on another protest march again in the near future, including another one against another arms fair in Liverpool even though i wish i could. A couple of other people who went on the march have said similar when ive spoke to them since.

The attendance for the march was pretty good however i'll be interested to see how many turn up for the next one.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I recently went on the anti arms fair march in town, i understand the arms fair is not illegal however i dont like the business as a whole and think it causes too many problems around the world which costs us more to clear up that we actually make from selling the stuff. Thats without even bringing into it the impact on the people in other nations in wrecked lives and countries.

So i went down and joined in. However when we got to the cathedral the crowd was basically all just shouting "fuck the tories" "labour and tories same old story" "fuck labour" and it didnt even seem to be much about the arms fair at all. To be fair most of the speakers remained on the actual point but the whole thing was just a gathering of far left tribes who regarded anyone not fully aligned with ALL of their politics and not just people opposed to the arms fair as lowlifes.

I personally felt very uncomfortable and soon departed, i doubt i will go on another protest march again in the near future, including another one against another arms fair in Liverpool even though i wish i could. A couple of other people who went on the march have said similar when ive spoke to them since.

The attendance for the march was pretty good however i'll be interested to see how many turn up for the next one.

It's interesting that you mention that. During the lockdown (Well, more accurately a gap in the lockdown when it was relaxed around June) there was a big march in town - I'd nipped into town for a pint - not been there for ages and I was told there was going to be a march.

I just looked it up and it was actually the BLM march on 13th June 2020. Anyway I had a couple in the Dizzy and then went to the burnt out church to see what the script was and to support it from a distance and as you say it was just really angry people shouting "Fuck the police! Fuck the Tories! Fuck Labour!" and the like and the atmosphere seemed very hostile and didn't seem to make it clear what the aim was so I got off and went for another pint somewhere else.

I'm not sure that the group around the burnt out church were part of the main group - not even sure where they marched as I'd stayed around the Dizzy/Hardman Street part of town and didn't venture in any further.

[jambutty]

In the US, BLM marches indicated huge white support for the cause.

[thaddeus]

It seems like with most things for the majority any protests will be viewed through the lens of the media coverage.  Depending on their angle the media can either focus on what are usually a very sensible majority and garner sympathy or focus on the what are usually a tiny minority of idiots and stoke up hatred.

As to whether it makes any difference to politicians, I don't think it does.  I was part of the march against the Iraq war back in 2003 and despite an incredible turnout (estimates of between 750k and 2m people) it didn't seem to make any difference to policy.  It was only a month later that we began our invasion of Iraq and the rest is history - including, frustratingly, the legacy of New Labour.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

It seems like with most things for the majority any protests will be viewed through the lens of the media coverage.  Depending on their angle the media can either focus on what are usually a very sensible majority and garner sympathy or focus on the what are usually a tiny minority of idiots and stoke up hatred.

As to whether it makes any difference to politicians, I don't think it does.  I was part of the march against the Iraq war back in 2003 and despite an incredible turnout (estimates of between 750k and 2m people) it didn't seem to make any difference to policy.  It was only a month later that we began our invasion of Iraq and the rest is history - including, frustratingly, the legacy of New Labour.

Yeah I remember watching the marches back then in awe. It was an amazing and wonderful thing to see so many people gather together and be in such unity and then as you say, for the government to completely ignore it..

[Commie Bobbie]

I don't think they can.

We all remember the marches against the War in Iraq in 2003, and that didn't do fuck all to change then dial - we have seen demonstrations against Austerity and Brexit - both with about a million protesting at each one - only for the government to do nothing - the only way to go is direct action - and the government would like to jail anyone who does that.

[Bobsackamano]

It's interesting that you mention that. During the lockdown (Well, more accurately a gap in the lockdown when it was relaxed around June) there was a big march in town - I'd nipped into town for a pint - not been there for ages and I was told there was going to be a march.

I just looked it up and it was actually the BLM march on 13th June 2020. Anyway I had a couple in the Dizzy and then went to the burnt out church to see what the script was and to support it from a distance and as you say it was just really angry people shouting "Fuck the police! Fuck the Tories! Fuck Labour!" and the like and the atmosphere seemed very hostile and didn't seem to make it clear what the aim was so I got off and went for another pint somewhere else.

I'm not sure that the group around the burnt out church were part of the main group - not even sure where they marched as I'd stayed around the Dizzy/Hardman Street part of town and didn't venture in any further.

I think i saw that protest, i was on my way somewhere but stopped for 10 mins. They were at the Anglican cathedral (think that was where the main gathering was) and it was exactly the same people and groups who were at the arms fair one so you know exactly what it was like. Well the arms fair one was much bigger (in the 000's)

These are causes that you or i could lend our support to (judging by your posting history) but as you say why would you stick around for stuff like that, its counter productive if they want to gain support. However im not even sure they want as much support as possible, they just want the righteous people supporting it. And by righteous i mean people who think exactly like they do. The problem is there's just not that many people who will think exactly like they do so it never grows. The people who i know who have gone full in with it are people who are far left but another group who are folk going though pretty shitty times in their lives who this serves as an outlet for all their frustrations. Hence the anger and bitterness just gets worse over time and rationality goes out the window.

[Sangria]

I don't think they can.

We all remember the marches against the War in Iraq in 2003, and that didn't do fuck all to change then dial - we have seen demonstrations against Austerity and Brexit - both with about a million protesting at each one - only for the government to do nothing - the only way to go is direct action - and the government would like to jail anyone who does that.

The one thing that left of centre marches have positively contributed is demonstrate how much more support their causes have than the extreme right. As such, they warn the government away from going too far to the Faragist right. Just don't sign up to any organisations while you're on those marches, as they're likely to be SWP-alikes and their ilk.

[Commie Bobbie]

The one thing that left of centre marches have positively contributed is demonstrate how much more support their causes have than the extreme right. As such, they warn the government away from going too far to the Faragist right. Just don't sign up to any organisations while you're on those marches, as they're likely to be SWP-alikes and their ilk.

Oh god tell me about it.

I do sometimes wonder whether groups such as the SWP causes our causes to stagnate and lose support.

[gazzalfc]

Depends on the cause.

It all kind of fits on a spectrum

High profile marches like BLM can and mave a huge difference.

UK based marches have kind of lost their appeal since the Met police introduced kettling tactics during the student top up fees marches.

On a Liverpool level, the anti-fascism marches have sent the right wing packing on numerous occasions. The pro LGBTQ rallies held last month after a number of homophobic attacks have sent a message of inclusion in this city.

There is a whole separate conversation of 'Direct action' events like what Insulate Britain are doing on the M25

[Nobby Reserve]

I don't think they can.

We all remember the marches against the War in Iraq in 2003, and that didn't do fuck all to change then dial - we have seen demonstrations against Austerity and Brexit - both with about a million protesting at each one - only for the government to do nothing - the only way to go is direct action - and the government would like to jail anyone who does that.

I went (with my missus & kids) to the anti-austerity march in London and it was an amazing experience. I went just to support it, be part of that voice, not because I thought it'd make any difference.

Been on much, much smaller marches in the 90's.

[Hedley Lamarr]

They obviously raise awareness, thats the only thing they achieve. Governments pay little attention. Labour didn’t take much notice during the antiwar marches, didnt stop me going though, peoples voices need to be heard irrespective of how much theyre ignored.

The answer to you’re question, very little, but sometimes they’re better than sitting at home tutting at the news.

[bornandbRED]

No. I can’t remember one march in the U.K. in recent history that has achieved anything other than a mess and a few arrests in Westminster. Normally the opposite.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Off the top of my head:

1990 poll tax marches, poll tax was binned

Early to mid 90's a series of anti-road protests: Newbury, Bath, Fairmile etc which failed to stop any of the bypasses being built, but the new road building programme was massively reduced as a result

[Elmo!]

If I remember right there were big protests to cancel 3rd world debt around the late 90's/millenium that I thin k were actually quite succesful.

[damomad]

I haven't been to many, and I know it's not political but the protests to get G&H out of the club felt vital at the time. The sight of thousands of supporters marching outside Anfield, it was one of the most powerful ways to raise awareness and gather support.  Those acts of protest gave us the momentum needed to get the bastards out.

I think of all the young people out protesting for climate change. Their acts on the day may not change the world, but think about how many scientists, engineers, and future global leaders there are within those crowds that will help get us out of this mess.

They are more inclined to create a ripple effect than a fundemental change on the day.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Their acts on the day may not change the world, but think about how many scientists, engineers, and future global leaders there are within those crowds that will help get us out of this mess.

They are more inclined to create a ripple effect than a fundemental change on the day.

Exactly.

Although there's no getting us out of this mess re climate change, we're decades too late in acting.

[west_london_red]

Off the top of my head:

1990 poll tax marches, poll tax was binned

Early to mid 90's a series of anti-road protests: Newbury, Bath, Fairmile etc which failed to stop any of the bypasses being built, but the new road building programme was massively reduced as a result

Yeah, it was a bit before my time but I always understood the Poll Tax March/Riot was ultimately successful in scrapping the Poll Tax and played a part in getting rid of Thatcher?

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Yeah, it was a bit before my time but I always understood the Poll Tax March/Riot was ultimately successful in scrapping the Poll Tax and played a part in getting rid of Thatcher?

Correct

And here's a bit about the effect Newbury and other anti-road protests had:

The protest was "absolutely crucial in changing transport policy", she says.

"After Newbury, the Labour government came to power with a manifesto pledge to stop road building and look at the alternatives, which they did do.

"Although there were 600 road schemes proposed initially by the Thatcher government, over the protest years it was whittled down to 150.

"By the time the Labour government came in 1997 the road programme was scrapped completely.

"So by anyone's standard that was an enormously successful campaign - over five years to reduce the multibillion-pound road building programme down to zero."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-35132815

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

and of course - anti apartheid

[rob1966]

Correct

And here's a bit about the effect Newbury and other anti-road protests had:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-35132815

While the reduction was needed, the protests over Newbury were wrong as far as I'm concerned. Anyone who has ever driven through Newbury before the by pass would know that the bypass there was desperately needed. The A34 is a major link between the docks at Southampton and the Midlands and is very busy with both car traffic and HGVs. It takes about 10 minutes now to travel from where the old road used to go into the town to where it rejoined the A34, whereas getting through Newbury of an afternoon used to take between 1 and 1 and a half hours. I did that drive about once a month going to our kids in Bournemouth, I must have spent 10 hours sat in traffic in Newbury town centre, our kid does Southampton to Birmingham and back every weekday and the night driver does the same run, it would be a nightmare for the residents now if the bypass didn't exist.

[TepidT2O]

Sometimes, yes.

[RainbowFlick]

Of course they can. There's quite a lot of apathy in this country and people assume nothing will change, but it can, but at the very least it brings about awareness to a cause and may spark interest in some people, even if a handful.

Some of them can feel like you're shouting in the void, though: e.g. anti-Trump, anti-war, anti-austerity. But it's important to get your feelings out and at worst it's usually an enjoyable day with good people, sometimes some drinks and maybe even some music.

Boots on the ground is a lot more important to me than voting for whatever political party as the system regardless is rigged.

[Zeb]

In showing support for a cause, yes. But it also needs to be followed up politically. Some of the already cited 'wins' were only later a 'win' because the demonstration reflected the public mood and fitted the politics of the time (eg poll tax riots reflected a massive hostility to the policy in the public, like 80% against at the time, which was used by Tories already resentful of Thatcher to challenge her on her perceived failing political touch). Contrast failure of anti-war demonstrations to do much of anything at the time - their longer term effects are more interesting, for better and perhaps worse at times. There's usually no harm in it being all about the protestors wanting to feel like they did something and feel good about themselves for doing so even if that's all it does, so long as it's not confused with ways to pull the political levers effectively.