Author Topic: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©  (Read 74182 times)

Offline John C

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #480 on: October 20, 2021, 08:09:57 pm »
I think it's a fascinating subject as well DS, its mad to think we'll never know who it was.

Offline Drinks Sangria

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #481 on: October 21, 2021, 09:46:12 am »
I think it's a fascinating subject as well DS, its mad to think we'll never know who it was.
I do think that unless some new piece of unimpeachable scientific method becomes available, or some form of diary or undiscovered evidence becomes released by a descendent etc, we'll never know the killer.

For me, there's two very good, realistic candidates in Druitt and Kaminsky/Kosminski, some believable ones like Lechmere and Kelly, then some far fetched ones that make a good story like Tumblety. The Masonic and Royal Family theories just make little sense, especially when you consider William Gull was in his 70s (in 1880s Victorian London probably not too physically dissimilar from being 85+ today) with respiratory problems at the time of the murders.

The 'DNA' evidence that came out a few years back is inconclusive and wildly unreliable, but people will still work hard to fit their chosen candidate into the frame. If it's not one of the above, it is likely someone who's never been named in connection with the killings, or who has been named as a minor suspect with little to no evidence. Given out of 80,000 people in Whitechapel, 2,000 were interviewed, when you remove the old, the infirm, children etc, there's a very good chance Jack the Ripper was sat in front of Police at some stage of the investigation.
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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #482 on: October 21, 2021, 10:07:00 am »
It is an interesting case, one I didn’t read up about that much until I listened to Karl Coppack’s interview about it on The Anfield Wrap. My old office was right by Spitalfields market and there’s still tons of narrow little streets and alleys around there. With all the films from that era it is quite easy to imagine how chaotic life was back then and crazy to think how all those murders took place with very few witnesses.

Anyway, I have nothing too interesting to add but when I have time I might read this thread through in lots more detail. Cheers for bumping!

Offline Charlie Adams fried egg

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #483 on: October 21, 2021, 10:11:31 am »
DS,
There's a podcast called Bad Women that looks at the case from the victims perspective and seeks to explore the women themselves, what life was like for them, how they ended up in Whitechapel etc. In doing so it paints a pretty vivid picture of what life was like in the East end back then and I'm sure many other major cities too.
I've not had chance to give it a proper listen but it sounded quite interesting, I'm interested in social history so it ticked those boxes for me, but it may provide a different slant from the usual ripper stuff.

Offline Drinks Sangria

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #484 on: October 21, 2021, 12:34:34 pm »
DS,
There's a podcast called Bad Women that looks at the case from the victims perspective and seeks to explore the women themselves, what life was like for them, how they ended up in Whitechapel etc. In doing so it paints a pretty vivid picture of what life was like in the East end back then and I'm sure many other major cities too.
I've not had chance to give it a proper listen but it sounded quite interesting, I'm interested in social history so it ticked those boxes for me, but it may provide a different slant from the usual ripper stuff.
Cheers for the recommendation, sounds the kind of thing I'd be very interested in. I've been absorbing a few 'Most Notorious' Podcasts recently, where there's a few episodes where prominent Ripperologists come on and give their opinion and research as to why their chosen candidate was The Ripper.

A few thoughts:

Dr Tumblety was clearly mentally-ill, diseased and an awful person and whilst his story is fascinating, an itinerant half-Irish, half-Canadian herb Doctor who spent a month or so in London each year and was wanted on counts of buggery doesn't fit the psychological profile of the killer well. It's a fun theory (as much as these things can be fun) but there's a lot of heavy circumstantial evidence here where you need to take big leaps to pin him as The Ripper. For example, he's scrutinised due to his collection of preserved uteruses and the so-called 'Americanisms' in the Dear Boss letter. The Dear Boss letter actually has more idioms that coalesce with Irish-English than American-English of the time, possibly a mistake in the rhetoric of phenomenology due to the high-level of Irish immigration to the USA at this time. The Uteruses too - surely far easier for a rich Indian Herb quack such as Tumblety to pay graverobbers or morticians for what he needs than to risk attacking women to remove their body parts. Again, a novel theory, but upon examination there's so much missing and so many leaps, it just doesn't feel plausible.

Joseph Barnett, short-lived Ripper suspect and roommate of Mary Kelly, the final victim, said to be wildly besotted with Kelly and hating her prostituting herself. He had a key to her room (that he'd said he'd lost, but the room was locked upon exit by the murderer) and had been noted to be at pains to convince her not to prostitute herself and to marry him, to which she was resistant. A fish gutter, he had some rudimentary skill with a knife, he matched the physical description of eyewitnesses who saw a man with the victims, he knew at least two of the victims already and Catherine Eddowes suspected him as The Ripper prior to her demise as the fourth victim. Of Irish origin, escape routes taken from the scene lead towards the area he lived in and his pipe was found at the scene of one of the crimes, albeit the room of Mary Kelly, so again this is circumstantial. Motives would be his lust and love for Mary Kelly, trying to scare her out of prostitution and towards his protection. In the 1990s, the FBI did an updated profile on The Ripper based on all available evidence and Barnett fits all six of the categorisations. One to research more.

Charles Allen Lechmere is another very viable candidate. Absent father growing up, known to have a violent temper and cruel to animals, bizarre relationship with his mother and his work route was all of the streets where the murders took place. Lived central to these locations as well. All circumstantial, but he is the only person who was found at the scene with a body, when he was discovered by another passer by at the scene of one of the deaths (first murder, Polly Nichols). Another man saw him standing over the body in the road, Lechmere then said to the man that Nichols was maybe dead, probably drunk instead, and then when they found a policeman not far from the scene, Lechmere did not give full details and did not return to the scene with the Bobby. He also refused to move the lady with Robert Paul, the other passer-by. He is known to have lied to the Policeman they came across, stating another Bobby needed his help at the scene (ended up being true as another Policeman found Nicholls in the time in between, which Lechmere can't have known) and only attended the inquest into Nichols' death once a newspaper article with some details about him had been released, prior to that he did not assist police or give any information over prior. He also gave an assumed name, Charles Cross, at the inquest - a long dead Step-Father's name - despite being registered as Lechmere on the census and known by colleagues, acquaintances and family as Lechmere. Mary Jane Kelly was also murdered within the hour slot on the street Lechmere was meant to be walking down on his work route at that time. Again all mostly circumstantial, but suspicious and interesting nonetheless. At best, he's the victim of a remarkable set of coincidences.   
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Offline So… Howard Philips

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #485 on: October 21, 2021, 01:32:04 pm »
'They all love Jack' by Bruce Robinson is an interesting and different read.

Well worth the effort.

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #486 on: October 21, 2021, 03:40:43 pm »
Have a look on the BBC iplayer for 'Jack the Ripper - Case reopened.'
They use modern policing methods to re-examine the suspects.
Very good and thought provoking programme.
If your moral compass is Piers Moron then I ask you to think whether someone who oversaw illegal phone hacking and published fake pictures depicting War Crimes is an appropriate person to look up to. In fact, I'd suggest you're a bit of a c*nt.

Offline John C

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #487 on: October 21, 2021, 10:34:22 pm »
I was enthralled by this book back in the day, nonsense of course?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_the_Ripper:_The_Final_Solution


Offline So… Howard Philips

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #488 on: October 21, 2021, 10:41:59 pm »
I was enthralled by this book back in the day, nonsense of course?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_the_Ripper:_The_Final_Solution

Bruce Robinson alleges that Stephen Knight was fed misinformation by leading Freemasons to lead him away from the real culprit.

Spookily I saw Sickert's painting 'Jack the Ripper's Bedroom' in the Walker Art Gallery about 15 years ago.

https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/jack-the-rippers-bedroom-206026#

Offline Samie

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #489 on: October 21, 2021, 11:08:55 pm »
Did Mr Wooltonian ever get to a conclusion on his findings. I wish he did.  ???

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #490 on: October 21, 2021, 11:16:35 pm »
Have a look on the BBC iplayer for 'Jack the Ripper - Case reopened.'
They use modern policing methods to re-examine the suspects.
Very good and thought provoking programme.


I could only watch the first few minutes and have seen two pointless uses of "technology" and the fakest "surprised gasp" I've ever seen on TV. Does it get better? If it does I might give it another go tomorrow.

Offline So… Howard Philips

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #491 on: October 21, 2021, 11:30:33 pm »
Did Mr Wooltonian ever get to a conclusion on his findings. I wish he did.  ???

See page three.

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #492 on: October 21, 2021, 11:31:41 pm »
I could only watch the first few minutes and have seen two pointless uses of "technology" and the fakest "surprised gasp" I've ever seen on TV. Does it get better? If it does I might give it another go tomorrow.

If it's the one from the late '80s were they follow a Ripper guide around London it's pretty boring.

Offline Tesco tearaway

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #493 on: October 21, 2021, 11:33:39 pm »
I could only watch the first few minutes and have seen two pointless uses of "technology" and the fakest "surprised gasp" I've ever seen on TV. Does it get better? If it does I might give it another go tomorrow.
Mate... Please plough through the first bit; it's very very convincing on who the real killer is  :thumbup
If your moral compass is Piers Moron then I ask you to think whether someone who oversaw illegal phone hacking and published fake pictures depicting War Crimes is an appropriate person to look up to. In fact, I'd suggest you're a bit of a c*nt.

Offline Tesco tearaway

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #494 on: October 21, 2021, 11:35:03 pm »
If it's the one from the late '80s were they follow a Ripper guide around London it's pretty boring.
It's not that one Howard; it's actually very good   :thumbup
If your moral compass is Piers Moron then I ask you to think whether someone who oversaw illegal phone hacking and published fake pictures depicting War Crimes is an appropriate person to look up to. In fact, I'd suggest you're a bit of a c*nt.

Offline Drinks Sangria

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #495 on: October 22, 2021, 10:07:30 am »
Bruce Robinson alleges that Stephen Knight was fed misinformation by leading Freemasons to lead him away from the real culprit.

Spookily I saw Sickert's painting 'Jack the Ripper's Bedroom' in the Walker Art Gallery about 15 years ago.

https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/jack-the-rippers-bedroom-206026#
Interesting and entertaining fiction I would say, similar to Cornwell's work.

I've seen that too, it's chilling. Sickert is one of the wildest theories going, based off some very shoddy and circumstantial evidence that Patricia Cornwell unearthed (that Sickert's DNA was allegedly on an envelope that contained one of the disputed Ripper letters, some experts think that's probably right but Sickert did the hoax and not the killings), she spent £2m of her own money on the investigation. Sickert himself was in Paris during the double event, the night of two murders. Or, as some suggest, he had an agent send letters he'd written and dated for the future, from Paris, so that he had a plausible alibi for the murders. That seems a stretch to me.

The Autumn of Terror is, for me, one of the biggest rabbit holes in terms of true crime you can ever go into, there is at once a mass of information but so much of it spurious or diverting - there's also a lot of secondary sources that an utterly convince you of a killer, but then you read something else that shows the first piece left out crucial reasoning or evidence - Charles Allen Lechmere being the case in point, huge, huge circumstantial and coincidental body of information behind his involvement, but some very reputable Ripper scholars believe it all was just coincidence and that he was an unlucky periphery character that should never be seriously discussed, something I disagree with.

I routinely read more and more and change my mind. I believe it was either Montague John Druitt, Charles Allen Lechmere or an outside bet of Joseph Barnett. The Kosminski theory is interesting but got too many gaps, Tumbelty and Sickert are fun theories but stretch circumstance too far for me. I can always be convinced otherwise though!
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Offline Drinks Sangria

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #496 on: October 25, 2021, 12:44:33 pm »
More reading over the weekend on my current obsession - and a really interesting podcast with Donald Rumbelow, the world's foremost expert on the topic.

Of the 'canonical five,' I have my doubts that Liz Stride, the alleged 3rd victim and first on the night of the 'double event,' was actually a Ripper victim. If she was, then the gentleman who found her body, Louis Diemshutz, must have missed the killer by seconds, and was probably within a few feet of the killer still hiding there. The wounds were too fresh, the timelines not quite lining up unless essentially, his horse and cart's noise interrupted the killer, who hid whilst Diemshutz inspected the body and then fled when Diemshutz went to retrieve assistance from the adjacent working men's club.

I do think The Ripper killed 6 women total, but I don't think Liz Stride was one of them. Here's some thoughts, if anyone's interested (more a way for me to spill my cluttered thinking out in to words) -

- Stride was murdered shortly before 01:00am, when Diemshutz found her entering into an alleyway leading to a Courtyard. She had been seen by Israel Schwartz being assaulted at 12:45, by a man, whilst another man stood nearby lighting a pipe. This man was wrestling her near the entry to the courtyard, and Stride was shouting at him. The onlooker, Schwartz, felt the two that were grappling knew one another, but did not assist, instead fleeing when the second man, with the pipe, came towards him. Stride is found dead 15 minutes later in the same location, just inside the entry to the courtyard.

- The above was either The Ripper with an accomplice, Stride's actual killer, or after this assault/domestic, within 15 minutes, Stride located another client, brought them to the alleyway and was murdered by them (presumably The Ripper).

- Stride lived, on and off, with a man called Michael Kidney. Kidney was known for being abusive, aggressive and have bouts of jealous rage. He even used to lock Stride in their shared accommodation while he went out each night, for fear she would leave him. The evening of her death, Stride had let herself out of her accommodation with a spare key that Kidney did not know she possessed. Kidney was of the belief that while he was out, Stride was confined to their shared room. The morning after her death, Kidney appeared at a police station, blind drunk, ranting about the police's incompetence in catching Stride's murderer. At this point, Liz Stride had been incorrectly identified by police as 'Liz Strokes,' so it wasn't common knowledge or knowledge at all that Stride had been murdered. So how did he know, other than her not being at home when he returned around 10:45pm the previous night?

- Stride had been seen earlier in the evening outside a local pub in the embrace of a client she'd picked up, this man was not Michael Kidney. When passers by who knew Stride joked she was embracing with 'Leather Apron,' Stride and the Man departed for more privacy. The man seen wrestling Stride later in the night was not this man, who presumably paid for the services received and left Stride to her business.

- It seems somewhat difficult to believe, though possible, that she was being assaulted, then inside the space of around 10 minutes, immediately composed herself and solicited a new client who then murdered her.

- The same type of knife was identified as being used in murders 1, 2, 4 and 5, but not Stride's death. The knife used to kill Stride was significantly shorted and had a more rounded blade.

- Stride did not suffer the same mutilation and patterns of attack as the other victims. This is thought to be because the killer was interrupted, but may be because she wasn't a Ripper victim at all. Stride received multiple stab wounds following a cut throat, but was not mutilated in the same fashion and no body parts removed. Stride is also the only alleged Ripper victim to die of her throat being cut, the other Ripper victim's throats were cut as post-death mutilation, after they had been strangled to death. Stride did not die of strangulation but the cut throat itself.

- Stride had no defensive wounds to speak of and was still gripping the confectionary she'd been carrying when she was found. Her  neckerchief was somewhat tightly pulled and dishevelled and left some marks on her throat, she was likely pulled by this then her throat slit open.

- Stride's knife wounds and slit throat were inflicted in a different pattern to the other Ripper victims. The other victims, based on movement of blade, patterns of damage, incision points of the weapon, were almost certainly done by a left-handed individual. Jack the Ripper was almost definitely left-handed, or ambidextrous at the very least. Stride's wounds were inflicted by someone who was right-handed, and as stated before, with a very different type of weapon.

- All of the Ripper victims were killed in fairly secluded spots that were dimly lit and not major thoroughfares. Stride was the exception, this was a heavy pedestrian traffic area and was well lit. Indeed, in the space of 15 minutes between 12:45 and 01:00, Israel Schwartz and Louis Diemshutz had both been down there. There was a packed working men's club right by where the attack took place, with hundreds of men inside, singing and drinking, the lights from the club illuminating the courtyard, alley and street rather well by contemporary standards. Stride was the only victim killed in an area that was extremely likely to have some form of pedestrian in the area during the time of the assault.

Based on the strange way Kidney was acting post-death, his knowledge of Stride's death when he shouldn't have known, the previous knowledge of him as violent and controlling and the death being so different to the Ripper's typical MO, I would say Michael Kidney likely killed Liz Stride after losing control during a domestic, then got away with it after the killing was attributed to the Ripper. It is merely coincidence that Stride was killed shortly before a genuine Ripper victim, Catherine Eddowes (who believed she knew who the Ripper was) in my opinion, based on all of the above. I believe the man seen to be assaulting her was Michael Kidney, who'd flown into a rage and gone off to find her once he'd returned home to find she'd escaped their room he believed he'd locked her in.

That's a lot of writing to basically say she was killed with a different weapon, by someone not-likely left-handed, after she'd been seen being assaulted and known to have a violent abusive boyfriend. Needed to get it all out of my head. This research is nothing new, I've added a bit of my own thinking, but I do think Stride was not a Ripper victim despite being part of the canonical five.
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Offline Wabaloolah

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #497 on: October 26, 2021, 12:51:08 pm »
Did Mr Wooltonian ever get to a conclusion on his findings. I wish he did.  ???
Just been reading the first few pages of the thread and it appears that his conclusion is that "the Ripper" was a guy named John Ripper who lived in Mile End, was a baker and was married to a lady called Ann or Annie!

It's certainly an interesting theory....
However if something serious happens to them I will eat my own cock.


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Offline Drinks Sangria

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Re: Jack the Ripper - Identity to be Revealed ©
« Reply #498 on: October 26, 2021, 01:09:42 pm »
Just been reading the first few pages of the thread and it appears that his conclusion is that "the Ripper" was a guy named John Ripper who lived in Mile End, was a baker and was married to a lady called Ann or Annie!

It's certainly an interesting theory....
He's done some really good research to be fair, it just seems that similar to other widely known theories, such as MJ Druitt and Charles Allen Lechmere, there's no piece of evidence that actually links them to the crimes as such (beyond the circumstantial), or any outwardly violent actions. From what I've read anyway. There also remains the issue that the 'Dear Boss' letter that all of the evidence is predicated upon is fairly likely to be a hoax perpetuated by the Central Press Agency to aid a failing paper, which it absolutely did. It's generally accepted now that nearly all of the letters were hoaxes, but the letter sent to Lusk, the 'From Hell' letter with the small piece of Kidney is perhaps the most likely legitimate - this particular letter was almost certainly written by someone of Irish extraction, or someone who understand the colloquial so well that it could be passed off as so. Either way, the letter was reasonably legible but far from perfectly executed English, somewhat phonetic, which would likely be consistent with the presumed socio-economic background of The Ripper. The 'Dear Boss' writings are what has helped perpetuate the stereotype of Top-Hatted English gentleman, the level of grammar and language used in that letter.

There was a piece of kidney sent along with the From Hell letter, that was confirmed to be that of an adult female who had suffered from bright's disease and had cirrhosis, likely due to alcohol abuse. Catherine Eddowes was missing a kidney and had bright's disease. Again circumstantial, again possibly a hoax. Mr Lusk - head of the Whitechapel Watch Committee - received a visitor the day before he received the letter, a man with an Irish-sounding accent who was said to have an 'oddly unsettling manner and way of speech about him.' This man spoke to Lusk's secretary as Lusk was out and insisted he get a home address for Lusk. She gave him the address and said words to the effect of 'if it's that urgent he's at X pub.' No one ever approached Lusk in the pub and the day after he received the infamous letter and package.

I liked what a Judge in the USA said some years back about circumstantial evidence, that each piece is a thread that snaps on it's own, but interwoven with other threads becomes a thick and hefty rope.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2021, 05:35:20 pm by Drinks Sangria »
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