Author Topic: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017  (Read 5960 times)

Offline BabuYagu

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Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« on: August 28, 2017, 03:49:01 PM »

Top: Expected goals & shot maps. Bottom: Expected goals timeline of the game

That was fun. It says a lot about Arsenal when I go into games against them with absolutely no fear whatsoever. I knew we would batter them yesterday. There was the usual hand wringing about the team. Gomez for TAA? I don't like big full backs, but I was not bothered. Moreno!!1! I'm rolling up my sleeves and eating an orange. Karius for Mignolet? I am the king of my own calm kingdom. No creativity in midfield? I'm a beacon of calm in a stormy sea. Whatever XI we put out yesterday, the outcome for me was inevitable. Because the one constant would be a Klopp drilled side vs a Wenger drilled one.


One team played with intensity, the other like a static grumpy old man with his arms crossed.

I have been saying it all summer but I am very calm about our transfer business, even our lack of it. Yes, everything is easier with better players, but transfers is just one method of getting better plays. The shortcut method. A noticeable problem Liverpool have had for a long time now is continuous transition. Every season it seemed we needed to replace half a dozen key players either because we were selling one, age, not good enough, whatever. I proposed that (like Spurs last season) a summer of low squad turnover would also benefit us in the short term. The problems from that might be seen later as player hit the glass ceiling of their potential. But any players signed, especially from abroad, need time to settle. Even though it looks like Salah has hit the ground running, he hasn't. This is 3rd gear Salah. He looks nothing like he player I remember at Roma and Fiorentina. He isn't playing at the same speed as his team yet. Everything looks a little bit rushed at the moment. Perhaps a drop of lavendar in a bath would allow him to soak himself calm? I think it will come in the passage of time. He will get used to the team, our attacking patterns of play, the intensity of the game here which is several notches above that in Italy. None of this is a criticism of Salah. He is playing well and has solid output. I just anticipate it will get better because I have seen better and can see moments where the Salah I know would do something different, would be scoring a hat-trick yesterday. In truth, he could be sitting on 7 or 8 goals already this season with calmer finishing. In Italy he was ice-cold in front of goal. We had a season of Mane refining his game to Klopp's system, now look at him. I'm telling you now, expect the same from Salah. I rate him above Mane as a goalscorer. He was calmly burying them in pre-season, he will again for us.


The biggest robbery in Italy that didn't involve Mini Coopers

So I anticipate improvement from every single player from last season. Especially Klaven, Gini, Grujic, Mane, Matip & Karius. They have gotten a year to adjust to the pace of the Premier League & Klopp's methods. We have a young squad so the rest will all be edging into their peak years. For this reason Klopp is saying he is "cool" with just these guys. If this is all he has, he will make it work. It doesn't mean he wouldn't like to add more people, just that he does not see the negative consequences for not doing so that some of us fear.

But I don't want to turn this into a transfers discussion, there is a time and place for that and it's not here. Instead I would like to talk about training. The very thing we rarely, if ever, see which is perhaps the most important aspect of Professional Football. A consequence of being a translator is that you end up needing to acquire a lot of knowledge about a lot of subjects. We (the wife & I) work on medical seminars, legal documents, curriculum vitae, company accounts, games, published articles, books, instruction manuals. Two of my most recent projects for example were a code of conduct update for an oil rig following a large number of accidents due to substance abuse and a card game mobile phone app.

You end up acquiring a huge amount of knowledge across a wide range of subjects. I realised that to really understand football, you need to do the same thing. There is the technical part of football. Then the tactical (which varies from how one country approaches it to the next). Then there is the physical. Psychological. Business & Finance and even then I am still just scratching the surface perhaps. This is where having a humble motherfucker like Klopp comes in. He strikes me as someone who knows enough about all those areas to have a conversation on them, but also knows enough to understand how limited his knowledge may be. He then recruits and empowers the very best he can in each area and trusts their expert opinions implicitly. You also need innovation. This means always adding young people with new ideas and new approaches who are the cutting edge of the industry. You end up with a good blend of the innovation of youth feeding the decision making processes built on experience.


This guy had the right idea!

The aim of all of this is to always have an edge on your opponents. We don't have the best players. We don't have the most money. If our aim is to buy the best players to compete against in this league, our natural position would be to finish 4th, exactly where we are in terms of finances. So we need to invest what we can wisely while being the best at everything else. Be harder, smarter, fitter and try to stay ahead of the curve. There are indicators that we are on the right path and it's fucking exciting. But that only matters if we follow through. The fear we all have is we have seen nearly before. We are fucking experts on nearly. Some don't yet have that belief that this time will be different. They don't yet have that blind faith. But moments like Saturday will help.

In using our Dr House Klopp template above to success, you can perhaps see where all those before him failed. Hodgson has that experience but zero innovation. With no cutting edge he became a footballing dinosaur. Rodgers had the innovation but not the experiences of failure. Klopp seems to have that perfect blend. The role that Linders has. The additions of the German trio of Mona (nutritionist), Rohrbeck (physio) and Andreas "mini-Klopp" Kornmeyer (fitness coach) seems designed to put us ahead of the curve in fitness and conditioning.

The interesting thing is when you look at Wenger's Arsenal, you can see very clearly where it all starts to go wrong. He joins Arsenal full of new and innovative ideas that put him ahead of the curve, including in terms of fitness & conditioning. Arsenal then dominate the league while the rest play catchup. But the innovation stopped there and now the things that once put him ahead of the curve, now have him lagging behind. A team that once looked fitter, stronger and better prepared than the rest now look the exact opposite - unprepared, unfit, soft, weak, fragile, [editor note - look up more adjectives and insert here].


That was the least enjoyable walk in the park of my career

This brings me back to the thing I wanted to focus on here - training. If you train at a low intensity then you will not be ready for high intensity games. If your body is conditioned to low intensity work then it will fail you in high intensity games. This makes you unprepared for what you are about to walk into. When you are unprepared, it is natural to freeze, panic, shutdown, surrender. Best case scenario is a valiant effort before inevitable failure. And I get that the criticism of the Arsenal players is justified because that effort wasn't there. And it fucking should be. But how long would a person need to put in that effort before acceptance of failure kicks in? And how many times would it need to reoccur before the acceptance kicks in earlier each time. Maybe getting to the point where you walk onto the pitch and just know "today will be one of those days" almost from the start.

I knew Arsenal were beaten before they arrived in Liverpool. I suspect they knew it too. Their only chance of success is if we decided to have one of those crazy days where we just give teams goals. So I don't look too hard at the players. The best indication you have that they are unhappy with this situation is the fact that most want out of the club, refuse to negotiate contracts and even rumours they were pushing the club to make a change in the summer. They knew the situation is fucked up. As with any problem - you have 4 solutions. Change yourself, change the situation, accept it or walk away. They have tried to change themselves - but they don't control training. They tried to change the situation - but they don't decide who coaches them. They have tried to walk away - but the club is keeping them to their contracts. So now they are just accepting it. It's easy to judge them but I am sure you can all identify a stressful situation, those four options, and how natural it is when you have exhausted all the options that you accept the only one left, even if it is not in your nature to do so.

But why are they unprepared specifically I am sure you ask.


The above demonstrates how increase in training impacts on fitness, performance and injuries

The above focuses on just the green injury line in the above graph and the sweet spot between 3 & 4

Many people, including long-term Klopp critic Raymond "The Dutch Guy" Verheijen claim Liverpool's injuries are a result of over-training his squad. Unfortunately it's hard to take him seriously seeing as a lot of what he says is just about self-promotion.

My understanding of things having spoken to the womens olympic volleyball physio and read a fair amount also is that people need to train for the intensity they intend to perform. This means that we need to train harder if our players will be ready to play harder. It also means if we set the intensity level of a game, the opposition cannot cope if they aren't conditioned to reach that intensity level. It also explains the underlying injury problems of Sturridge quite nicely and why there may finally be light at the end of the tunnel, as well as why so many Arsenal players enter into an injury cycle.

When a player is coming back from injury, if they are being nursed through training then their body isn't ready for the intensity of the matches themselves. Therefore the likelihood of reinjury increases. Therefore, I believe this is the reason for Klopp's hard line with Sturridge last season where he removed him from the squad completely until he was deemed fit enough to play. When Sturridge is training 100% at match-level intensity, he plays, when he isn't training 100%, he doesn't even play 1%. This should help build up his injury resistance. He recently picked up a slight knock against Bayern and was removed completely from the squad, not even on the bench for the first games of the season, for example.

In contrast at Arsenal, it's a common criticism of Wenger about rushing players back from injuries. From VVP, to Wilshire, to AoC, to Sanchez with his hamstrings in his first season. He was making them jump straight back into a match intensity environment before they were physically able to do so.


The vicious circle of under-training - injuries - poor performance that many believe certain Arsenal players struggle with

Oh and I cannot finish this post without mentioning Karius. Good to see him get a chance yet had almost nothing to do. In one sense this vindicates the choice of Klopp to use this game to give him a chance in the team as it was an easy clean sheet to boost the confidence. His distribution - one of his biggest assets in Germany - looked ropey as fuck though. He almost got tackled twice in the first half. When it almost happened again very early in the second, Klopp gave him a stern look and a shout and that was it - zero fucking about occurred after that.


What is interesting is how the center backs deal with the backpasses to Karius. Normally when the keeper plays out from the back the center backs split to give options and also move the forwards out of the way allowing passes into midfield from the keeper. But Lovren and Matip are both very central (see above) and Gini is too deep. Which makes sense why Klopp got so annoyed at the fans for going after Karius when he was trying to play out from the back as instructed and also pointing out the other players need to adjust their games if it's going to work.

Quote
@LFCZA
Andy Townsend saying #Klopp turned to the crowd after #Karius' first 'mistake' telling the #LFC fans to get off his back/to calm down.
10:12 AM - 27 Aug 2017

Quote
“But obviously you could hear in the stadium that we all need to get used to playing football in close situations. For the goalkeeper or if Emre has the ball and someone is around him, the whole crowd was like ‘woooah,’ he said.

“They are all a little bit surprised, the players should not be because of orientation, you need to play in close spaces, as a goalkeeper and as an outfield player."
- Klopp post match interview

I also have an assumption on this. When you are out of the team and get a chance - let's say both Migs & Karius knew before the game that it was just for 1 game - Karius want's to show what he can do. Therefore he takes his biggest asset and tries to show off. Then fucks up. Then tries harder, fucks up some more. Hopefully the lesson is learned now as it seemed to click with him in the second half. In the Premier League you won't get that time to fuck about. By all means, play out from the back but never feel like you have time on the ball. Expect there is someone charging you down as there invariably will be. It's about knowing when not to do something more than just following instruction.

On the plus side though, he closed down Welbeck well for their best chance of the game narrowing the angle forcing a shot over the bar. His vulnerability of crosses didn't rear it's ugly head as he dealt well with the few that he needed to. Nor did he look apprehensive to come off his line which was something he was accused off in the past. I understand the nerves given it's his first game back after a long time out of the side, but he needs to sort that out. Look forward to his next run out, likely against Leicester in the cup I imagine.

Finally, touching again on how our training impacts on our performance levels, I wanted to share a pm I received today about this, coincidentally.
Remember that training video you posted, where the game was full-field 11v11, and every so often Željko would stop the game, put a ball down, and the defending team would go haring off on a time-limit counter-attack?

Mo's goal yesterday, straight off the training pitch...

The video in question showed the players running counter attack drills where they had a certain amount of time to score. I remember Mane, Firmino & Coutinho all got amongst the goals but Salah stood out in particular. Almost 1/2 the goals scored in the video where by him. I pointed out that we should expect a lot of goals the coming season from him as the patterns were were practising were focused on him being the finishing touch.

As afc turkish points out, a lot of the goals were carbon copy of that goal at the weekend with salah racing away, backed quickly by a few runners and the ball being slotted in at each past the keeper.


Something of an unusual roundtable post for me. There will be lots of talk of players and transfers this coming days so I wanted to focus this one Klopp and the work he and his team does. I'll maybe do my usual stats look at the game over the international break once I watch the game back again.

« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 05:43:52 PM by BabuYagu »
Gonna stay behind at work and wait to see what happens.

I am betting some split arse and crying.

Offline John C

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2017, 05:26:28 PM »
Thanks BY, enjoy everyone  :wave

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2017, 06:20:59 PM »
Good OP.
Looking back at the game, it was over at 2-0. We could have scored a few more with better finishing. I like how so many of our attacks seemed dangerous. Sometimes it's just one or two or three chances that really are dangerous. Vs Arsenal we had plenty. We were not even at our best and we scored four. A quality team performance. At the other end, Arsenal were lacking something. They do look one paced and players seem to lack focus. It's easy to critisize after the game is over, but there seems to be something wrong with them. There's talent in their side with Sanchez, Lacazette and Özil. Giroud is usually reliable to score double figures every season. And yet they looked like nothing in comparison to our front three.

That said, when we look back at this season, I believe we will see this game as one of our best performances. It was the perfect way to follow up on the Hoffenheim performance. Shame there's a break now. Looking forward to the City game already.

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Offline jillc

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2017, 06:47:08 PM »
Brilliant opening post, and fascinating as ever. Loved all that analysis on the training techniques, looking forward to maybe a bit more on it.  :)
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Offline afc turkish

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2017, 08:14:38 PM »
You brought the 'A-team' into the Roundtable...

 :lickin

Klopp and his coaches seem very able to produce the coveted "training effect," the transfer of tactical concepts worked on in training into match play.

If you can find that training link/it's still available, chuck it in here along with Mr. T, Hannibal, Face, and the Crazy One...

As clear and simple an illustration as can be found...
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Offline dangerpuss

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2017, 08:49:05 PM »
A while back, I remember Raphael Honigstein talking about Wenger in the Guardian football podcast. The German players who joined Arsenal were shocked that he doesn't take training sessions himself. I find this bizarre but not surprising given how Arsenal play.

Liverpool look like a team that works very hard in training. Every player is well drilled and seems to know exactly what to do. I don't see that with the Arsenal players. Our transitions and movement look so smooth and almost unconscious.

Yet again, I don't think the Liverpool players or coaches are getting the credit they deserve. They made some very good players look mediocre and some average players look truly dreadful. I'm not a fan of Aaron Ramsay. He had one impressive spell of goalscoring but other than that he's a player with very little discipline or tactical awareness. Our midfielders made him look like a Sunday league player.

Why is our defense not getting more praise? Unbeaten in 9 competitive games with 7 clean sheets in those games. The Watford game looks like an abberation brought on by Coutinho's antics and Watford being a team of freakish giants. The entire back four was immaculate against Arsenal. Moreno was less prominent in the attacking phase but he completely nullified AOC and we didn't need him in attack.

I really hope we continue to be underestimated as the bigger teams will try to attack us and get slaughtered. I suspect Man City and Spurs are dreading playing us because I don't think they can play with a low block.

It's a great time to be a Liverpool fan and Klopp is the perfect manager for us. I really hope he earns a place in that flag alongside the other legends. I think we could be a surprise package in the Champions League especially if we can avoid the low block specialists like Atlético, Man United and Juve.

Offline 12C

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2017, 10:27:15 PM »
Interesting stuff about the training intensity.
I am old enough to have been privileged to be able to walk into Melwood and see the reds train,both preseason and during.
Shanks' axiom was along the lines of marathon runners train by doing marathons, footballers train by playing football. Preseason was about getting them fit, the rest was about getting them fit for football.  The five a sides were brutal. 😉
Watching that training routine someone posted the other day was the modern development of that. The high intensity match scenario, with the random transition thrown in where teams have to switch from defending to getting the ball into the opposition goal within 10'seconds is Klopp training the team for the high intensity transition pressing and passing game.
The term "match fit" is often misused, but it is true that actually playing in a game puts totally different stresses on the player. Adrenaline and cortisol levels are much higher in the real game as more is riding on it. The player gives that bit more and unless properly prepared and conditioned, can break down with injuries. The game scenarios and competition based routines are obviously intended to try and advance this 'game play' conditioning.
The results were there to see. Our transitional play was outstanding, and there was one point where we had 4 men bursting through in support of a break.
Looking forward to City as it will be interesting to see how Otamendi and Kompany cope with pace through the middle at the same time as pace down the flanks.
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Offline nyrrard

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2017, 11:43:05 PM »
A great read as always :)
Interesting regarding Sturridge...
Klopp seems very adapt at shielding his players very good.

Salah will only get better! My oh my - we have some team, and some manager, on our hands!
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Offline joekim87

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2017, 01:15:15 AM »
Fantastic read! Thank you!

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2017, 02:27:07 AM »
Okay couple of things watching this back.

1. Arsenal struggling to play through our midfield so Sanchez is dropping into DEFENCE to get their attacks going.
2. Only Sanchez & Ox are pressing. Welbeck does sporadically, particularly the keeper.
3. We used Moreno to either pull Ox up the pitch then exploit in behind him with Mane. Or when he marked Mane, Moreno would double up to release Mane.

Notable at the start Mane & Salah man mark the wing backs leaving Moreno and Gomez quite free. We used a deep midfield press*. This is unusual for us. We usually press in the attacking 3rd of the pitch and play a high line to compress up behind it. Here we defended deeper and pressed a lot deeper which made us much more compact than usual which makes sense, you don't allow their creative players to get on the ball this way or have effective runners. This results in #1 above.

The exception to this is counter pressing of course. This happens anywhere on the pitch when triggered.

Moreno would advance up the pitch with Ox so he could never get on the ball and run at him. This often meant Moreno would be up level with Firmino when in our defensive shape. This means Klopp specifically targetted the threat of Ox (one of the most dangerous players in the league based on stats from the first two games). Moreno was tasked with nullifying him and did it perfectly. I would argue for any other full back, this approach is virtually impossible given the pace of Ox. You follow him 15 yards into his half and he'll be running in behind you 3 seconds later.

We often have a clear mobile diamond in midfield when defending. Moreno has licence to roam with Ox so he never has more than 10 yards of space.

As for Ox, I think he was having a pop at Ramsey for not supporting him and allowing Mane, Moreno & Gini to double and even triple team them on that side of the pitch numerous times. Ramsey was literally speculating. Should have been brought off at 15mins. Or shot. Either or would be acceptable.

At this point Sanchez and Ox have stopped pressing pretty much. Ox is now conserving his energy to run the other way knowing he will get no help whatsoever from Aaron Ramzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

So that's my rough notes from the opening part of the game. Lots of interesting things tactically are happening and our shape in defence changes almost constantly which is causing problems for Arsenal as they cannot find any space. Sometimes Mane stands on top of Ox, sometimes he presses up and Moreno stands behind Ox. Salah usually stays on Bellarin to protect Gomez from a more agile, pacey player. The midfield 3 becomes a 4 when Mane pushes up. Otherwise they sit very narrow when Salah and Mane are beside them. Front to back we are extremely compact. Maybe 30 yards at best from Matip to Firmino. Absolutely no space in between the lines really.

This sucks Arsenal higher and higher up the pitch making them increasingly vulnerable on the break.

* Imagine the field split into 6 by horizontal lines.
The highest two lines are High Attack Press, Deep Attack Press
The lines either side of the halfway line are High Midfield Press, Deep Midfield Press
The lowest two lines are High Defence Press, Deep Defence Press (Or the Hodgson Press).
Gonna stay behind at work and wait to see what happens.

I am betting some split arse and crying.

Offline Sevens and Eights

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2017, 02:32:34 AM »
Well done.

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2017, 04:44:55 AM »
Looking back, my favorite moment of the game was Mané's run when Salah scored. He's surely 20 meters behind him and must realize that he doesn't have a chance for a square pass. Instead he fucking bolts downfield intercepting the runs of the two Arsenal players darting back, just like how an american football player would do if he spots his team mate going for a touchdown. He essentially takes both players out of the situation. It's poetic unselfishness and typifies what a Klopp team is all about.
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Offline RedMichelFerri

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2017, 04:53:10 AM »
Good OP babu. I am not as articulate as most of the guys here but I liked how our midfielders were (Can and Gini) brave on the ball and taking on players and running with ball. Most of the time we lacked this when coutinho was not in side (sorry little bastard). It was refreshing to see Can and Gini do it. It makes life difficult for opposition when you have Firmino, Salah and Mane dragging you all over place with their movements. Most of people might not be excited but this is why I am bit excited with Ox link since he can do it. If our midfield manage this consistently I think we'll rely less on Coutinho this season.

Apart from that we just steam rolled them and destroyed their confidence. At the same time we are seeing its effects in transfer markets. Now talented young players see how Klopp is building side, how he tust and gives opportunities to youngsters while taking their game to next level. So everyone looks like wants to be part of this evolution. I don't care if Phil stays or leaves as long as we back Klopp in this and I am damn sure he will get us there. It really exciting. I have seen Klopp dortmund destroying likes of RM etc in CL. This team is reminding me of that and the players we are targeting points towards that.

YNWA
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 04:55:23 AM by RedMichelFerri »
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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2017, 05:07:01 AM »
Tactically, it was this:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/j8dJDl7f4og" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/j8dJDl7f4og</a>

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Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2017, 05:29:58 AM »
Roundtables of substance. What a pleasure. Great OP by Babu and good addons from subsequent posters too.

:wellin
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 07:09:00 AM by Rush 82 »

Offline jckliew

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2017, 06:46:33 AM »
DOMINATION! 
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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2017, 08:21:28 AM »
Just to add to the OP:

I saw an interesting interview with Lijnders a couple of weeks ago on our training methods. The two main aspects that stood out for me:

1. We are always working on our pressing game. We are non-stop working on how to create pressing traps and forcing our opponent into spaces where we can press them effectivily.

2. Every excercise in training is always conducted at 100% intensity. Sometimes regulated (eg. they would work on the team shape and at the signal they press and go full throttle for 40sec.) but always at 100%. As a consequence the players would spent less time in the gym but simply every second on the pitch would be used to build full fitness.

Here's the link, but the interview is in Dutch:


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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2017, 08:29:20 AM »
Our attack was exceptional, the way our front 5 move literally tears teams apart. If you don't play a low block against us it seems virtually impossible to stop us from creating seriously high volumes of chances. And we still have Coutinho, Lallana, possibly Lemar and eventually Keita to add to this side. Our potential is fucking scary.

However, what really impressed me was how we defended as a collective. We gave Arsenal pretty much no space in dangerous areas for 90 minutes. Henderson was all over Arsenal players with the ball in attacking half spaces like a rash, and Moreno completely dominated anything that came down the left hand side, Klopp has clearly coached a brain into Alberto's head and fuck me what a player he is becoming... His pace and strength make him a nightmare to attack 1 on 1 if he keeps his head, it will take some time for him to earn the trust of the supporters after a few brainless years, but he will.. And when he goes forward we are dynamite. Imagine what our left side could look like with Him, Mané and Naby Keita all hounding that side of pitch in defense and obliterating it in transition.

Jurgen Klopp is a fucking genius, I thought his Dortmund side was special, but what he's building here is something even more incredible.. The way we squeezed Arsenal in possession, exploded in transition and blitzed them in attack was simply impossible for them to deal with. And, we didn't even look like we got out of 3rd gear, we made it look easy.

Bring on yer fucking Manchester City, I have a feeling we will witness what gangraping half a billion quid worth of well-oiled arseholes looks like.

(Edit: fixed a few spelling errors)
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 08:34:20 AM by Bob Sacomano »

Offline Yanwoo

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2017, 08:42:34 AM »
Good OP babu. I am not as articulate as most of the guys here but I liked how our midfielders were (Can and Gini) brave on the ball and taking on players and running with ball. Most of the time we lacked this when coutinho was not in side (sorry little bastard). It was refreshing to see Can and Gini do it. It makes life difficult for opposition when you have Firmino, Salah and Mane dragging you all over place with their movements. Most of people might not be excited but this is why I am bit excited with Ox link since he can do it. If our midfield manage this consistently I think we'll rely less on Coutinho this season.

Apart from that we just steam rolled them and destroyed their confidence. At the same time we are seeing its effects in transfer markets. Now talented young players see how Klopp is building side, how he tust and gives opportunities to youngsters while taking their game to next level. So everyone looks like wants to be part of this evolution. I don't care if Phil stays or leaves as long as we back Klopp in this and I am damn sure he will get us there. It really exciting. I have seen Klopp dortmund destroying likes of RM etc in CL. This team is reminding me of that and the players we are targeting points towards that.

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2017, 09:03:45 AM »
The defensive shape has been really impressive against two good sides (er . . . maybe one). Very compact both horizontally and vertically. Atlético defend like that and it makes them extremely difficult to break down. I love that we're playing like this against attacking sides. It creates acres of space for counters and makes that pressing much more effective too.

Wenger must not have watched the Hoffenheim game. We didn't play exactly the same but the goals were fairly predictable. How does he stop us without playing a low block? Playing a two man midfield was madness and playing Ramsey as one of those two was insanity. Ramsey was by far the worst player on the pitch. His positioning was more like Firmino. Why isn't Wenger roaring at him to stay in shape? Bizarre. He just made it so easy to flood forward and outnumber poor Xhaka.

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2017, 10:04:07 AM »
Very good OP and very descriptive explanation of Klopps methods.

This is so inspiring! If only we can be more consistent and produce performances like that against most, we can be terrific this season.

It is so exciting to watch us dominate teams and boss possession, limiting any threats from the opponets.

Good times ahead.
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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2017, 10:11:26 AM »
Looking back, my favorite moment of the game was Mané's run when Salah scored. He's surely 20 meters behind him and must realize that he doesn't have a chance for a square pass. Instead he fucking bolts downfield intercepting the runs of the two Arsenal players darting back, just like how an american football player would do if he spots his team mate going for a touchdown. He essentially takes both players out of the situation. It's poetic unselfishness and typifies what a Klopp team is all about.

Just watched that back, great spot. Emre and even Bobby looking to maybe get things on the follow up too

As always, fabulous op, Babu
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 10:15:37 AM by vivabobbygraham »
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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2017, 10:13:29 AM »
Thanks for the very detailed OP. I certainly don`t pretend to understand all of the graphics but the more of your posts I read the more I learn about the details. It certainly explains what Klopp wants.

The impression I got was that we completely dominated midfield and consistently isolated their players once they got beyond their own third, and sometimes before it. It seemed to me to be a very polished version of the Hoffeinheim game and our attacking interplay seemed very similar. Your comments about Karius are interesting. I do understand the crowd taking a sharp intake of breath everytime he tried to play out with his feet and it did cause some heart in mouth moments.

Arsenal were truly dreadful but that shouldn`t be at the expense at doing a disservice to the level we played which was right up there. I really like the way our front 3 play together and I see, fitness allowing, that being the mainstay of our attack for the season.

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2017, 10:52:48 AM »
Very interesting opening post. I agree about Wenger. Once he was an innovator - a brilliant one - but his methods haven't changed and now he's one of the most conservative coaches in the game. That high line of theirs was predictable and an act of insanity against Liverpool.

That coaching video was the first thing I thought of when Salah scored. His interception and run were top class, but the supporting runs of Mane and Can were straight off the training ground. Mane's in particular was devastating because he angled it in such a way as to quarantine Salah and keep the Arsenal defence away from him. I seem to remember that the 'punishment' for not finishing off the move with a goal in training was that another ball was immediately put into play on the half way line and those attacking players had to turn and sprint another 50 yards to get back into play. Exhausting stuff. And what an incentive to score! (And unlike the first leg v Hoffenheim, when a similar opportunity presented itself, that is precisely what Salah did).

The most impressive thing about Salah so far is not his ridiculous pace, not even his will power, and certainly not his finishing (yet), but his movement off the ball. He's aggressive. Against high-line teams like Arsenal he has the desire to stretch the pitch with lung-busting runs beyond the defensive line. Against low block teams like Palace (and Man Utd) he understands the importance of following up a short pass by making incisive runs into the box. And, in all the matches we've seen so far, he has shown that precious ability to make ghost runs to the far post in search of loose balls and rebounds. Opportunities fall to the fellow. I'd be amazed if we're looking at anything less than 15 Premier League goals from him.

I agree with Babu about Karius. He's been watching Mignolet's fragility on the ball from the subs' bench for a few months now thinking "I can do better than that." And certainly he both stops and hits the ball with his foot in ways which show him to be a more natural footballer than the Belgian. But the Arsenal match was a useful reminder to him that Premier League forwards are on to you much quicker than anywhere else in the world. He needs to be more decisive, sooner. But I hope both he - and Klopp - persevere. Mignolet will never be a ball-playing goalie. He's too slow. And we need one.

But can Karius defend? Arsenal didn't test him of course. Not a single shot on target. There again Karius produced the best punch of a ball since Mignolet's on the opening day of last season (also v Arse). Then he followed up with a second one. That's a big plus for me. For a moment it looked like Pepe Reina was back between the sticks.

I could spend another page drooling at the performances of Matip, Can, Wijnaldum and the front three. What they produced was close to perfection. But I want to say a word about the chinks in our armour instead. Moreno gets a bad press and for that reason - and others - I've always defended the bloke. He played decently on Sunday too. But, jesus, his first touch. It consistently lets him down and consequently we are slower to build than we should be. It's a shame because his support play is generally good and his recovery pace is welcome too. But surely Robertson will grab that left-back berth soon.

And then there's Henderson. I've already said what I thought about his performance in the player thread. There were some very nice things about it, and some really dumb things too. To me he's our weak link.     
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 10:56:43 AM by Yorkykopite »
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2017, 11:01:53 AM »
Looking back, my favorite moment of the game was Mané's run when Salah scored. He's surely 20 meters behind him and must realize that he doesn't have a chance for a square pass. Instead he fucking bolts downfield intercepting the runs of the two Arsenal players darting back, just like how an american football player would do if he spots his team mate going for a touchdown. He essentially takes both players out of the situation. It's poetic unselfishness and typifies what a Klopp team is all about.

Yes. That's a wonderful description of what happened.
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Offline 12C

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2017, 12:58:40 PM »
The references to the Hoffenheim match made me stop and think again about how we are playing.
We went to Germany and won, something no other team has done in over 12months. Yes the Germans had chances but so did we, but were not sharp and clinical as perhaps Klopp would want. All the media noise focussed on our weaknesses in defence. Moving to the home game, we were still a little wasteful in attack but still managed to hammer them. This was a good side, and much of their threat came from Gnabbry using his pace against an inexperienced full back. (Moreno sorted that problem) Again the media focussed on our nervousness in defence. Wenger must have believed all he read in the Guardian, because I really think he hoped to capitalise on our perceived issues, to attack us and put us under pressure. No one should doubt that that Arsenal team contains some very talented footballers. They were set up to take the game to us and exploit our 'weaknesses' at the back. The media script that we try to outscore the opposition to the neglect of our defence must have influenced more than the feeble minded.
As the analysis in this thread has shown, Klopp was prepared to deal with the threat by turning the tables on Wenger. Mane and Salah dropping deeper, encouraged the likes of Oxlade-Chamberlain and Ramsey, Sanchez and Ozil, to push on, but the space behind them was wide open to the pace of Gomez and Moreno. Suddenly they found themselves having to race back 40 odd yards when they thought they were attacking.
On the subject of Moreno, the critics who blast him for 'bombing forward' show little understanding of Klopp. Klopp wants him attacking because, as we saw on Sunday, the wing backs (and others) soon get tired of chasing back, and eventually settle for staying back. (Attack as the best form of defence) Three at the back becoming a solid 5, protected by the 4 in midfield, left Welbeck on his own.
Joe Gomez is flying under everyone's radar. His pace is electric, especially in recovery. His actual football ability in terms of passing etc. is of a very good standard for a kid who came here as a raw young centre half. All the shit about needing cover for our centre backs, and how the world will end if VVD doesn't sign, again shows how shallow the modern fan is. If this lad keeps himself injury free, I see him moving inside like Lawrenson or Hughes did, and becoming a ball playing centre half in the old style.


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Offline kavah

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2017, 02:40:33 PM »
Thanks BY - for the OP and post #9 - really interesting about the training techniques we utilize. One wonders how much more we can get out of our players over a long season at the intensity we often play, I guess this is when a deeper squad of better players comes in.

Also I'm looking forward to reading about the Needle Player you describe in the transfer thread, a Kinkladze or Juninho would be fun :D




Offline DanA

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2017, 03:14:04 PM »
Things that stood out to me that haven't really been talked about:

Gomez launched three of the attacks that lead to goals if I'm not mistaken:
1) Won the ball high up the pitch, give and go and left foot cross headed in by Firmino
2) Won the ball back in our box and quickly moved the ball on which was driven forward eventually to Mane who scored a right foot curler
3) Won the ball back and quickly moved the ball on to Firmino who showed some magic turning some defenders inside out before switching to Can in the middle, Salah on the right who delivers a perfect cross to Sturridge.

Strikes me that not only did Gomez do a good job defensively and really did make Bellerin his bitch, but beyond that, he controlled his channel along side Matip which was constantly attacked, and displayed a cool head relaunching attacks which were pivotal, perhaps even decisive.

The CB pairing was rock solid and I think Karius played a part
It's might have looked easy but Welbeck, Ozil and Sanchez are very talented players. Yet none of them got a sniff, I thought we asked a lot of our CB's by simultaneously dropping off Arsenal, but then asking our CB's to hold a high line. That was made possible by Karius' starting position which can look a bit crazy. Repeatedly Arsenal were caught off side but it seemed like Arsenal had very little room to attack.  I'm not saying Mignolet shouldn't be our main man, but the Karius selection did allow us to play a different style of defense which meant he didn't have to deal with a lot any shots.

A different way of pressing?
A fair bit has been said about ceding posession, and to some extent we did, but we still had roughly 50% of the ball. I think in this game it wasn't that we didn't press high up the pitch, we just had different cues. When you think about it, Henderson won the ball high up the pitch leading to a good chance, Salah won the ball high up the pitch leading to a good chance, and Mane should have created a 3 on 1 situation (handball shout) after a Henderson press caused an errant pass which Mane subsequently intercepted. So we definitely pressed at some stage, I just think our cues were to not go until Xhaka, Ramsey and the wingbacks had vacated their half. I could be wrong and would have to watch it more closely but I think Klopp identified something in the way Arsenal played and wanted to create a 4-3 pressing situation with Firmino, Mane, Salah and Henderson attacking the three CB's.


It strikes me that Arsenal played Liverpool exactly the wrong way. I think you want to force Fimino to play on the shoulder and should do that by having someone, (ideally two) sit in the space that Firmino wants to occupy, I think you want to push Mane and Salah down the flanks and never allow them to cut inside but both Holding and Monreal allowed that to happen. I think they should have been using Oxlade to get at Moreno/Lovren but instead focused the attack on Gomez's side and I think we struggle against target men a little so would have started Giroud. If it were me I would have been working knock downs from Giroud between Lovren and Moreno with Oxlade or Walcoot and Sanchez working second balls. And I absolutely would have played a double pivot, probably in a 4-2-3-1 to snuff out counter attacks and free up the CB's so they don't have to follow Firmino.

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Offline Nice one, Barney lad!

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2017, 03:17:43 PM »
Babu -

On the 'me turning' spectrum you are here:

Stevie G            x                                                                                    Martin Keown



Great work - keep it up!
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 03:46:05 PM by Nice one, Barney lad! »

Offline Kelvinlfc

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2017, 04:00:49 PM »
We were awful, all over the pitch just awful.  ;D

Offline Living Legends

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2017, 04:08:08 PM »
Great read as ever BY - thanks.  :wave

Offline redk84

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2017, 04:30:43 PM »
Good stuff all round..

Just the thing about Sturridge and getting back to match fitness to 100% before stepping on the field. I think that is important and could be a huge factor in why he has stayed and we've not heard anything about him leaving. (also his injury record is still fresh in people's minds)

But he says he is feeling better than ever.....a few times now and he probably trusts Klopp to get him on the field in a better condition.

Also the defensive tactics....Clearly there is a lot of training to do things right in open play and I am hoping on set pieces too. It must be annoying to Klopp when the individual errors cost goals (us too!) after work on the training ground
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Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2017, 06:48:45 PM »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/8e1h8Gs9tGI" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/8e1h8Gs9tGI</a>

Wanted to share this in here. It's every touch of AoC. I thought he did okay at the weekend and struggled badly with Mane/Gini/Moreno around him a lot. It's noticable the space between him and the nearest Arsenal player very often forcing him to turn back. There is even moments where he is signalling for someone to come towards him.

When players were closer to him , he seemed to fare much better.

Given we are signing him, and this is the stick to beat him with, just wanted to add this to the roundtable for peoples views.
Gonna stay behind at work and wait to see what happens.

I am betting some split arse and crying.

Offline rocco

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2017, 06:52:53 PM »
Enjoyable perspective, and enjoyable read .

On the high intensity training, my question is can we keep it up for the whole season and keep the players injuries down as well .

Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2017, 07:19:16 PM »
Enjoyable perspective, and enjoyable read .

On the high intensity training, my question is can we keep it up for the whole season and keep the players injuries down as well .
It's a question of accumulated fatigue. We already managed to rest Salah for a game, Can too. Our full backs look good to be rotated. We have been subbing off key players too late in games (e.g. Firmino v Watford). This should all help towards that. The key thing will be finding ways to avoid players 3 games in a week without losing consistency in performances.
Gonna stay behind at work and wait to see what happens.

I am betting some split arse and crying.

Offline rocco

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2017, 07:25:06 PM »
It's a question of accumulated fatigue. We already managed to rest Salah for a game, Can too. Our full backs look good to be rotated. We have been subbing off key players too late in games (e.g. Firmino v Watford). This should all help towards that. The key thing will be finding ways to avoid players 3 games in a week without losing consistency in performances.

Not subbing players late in games imo we would have won , it's a hard balance act without like replacements.

My point is can the training be altered if we don't have such players for the rotation and not cost us points .

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2017, 07:58:48 PM »
Thanks for contributing everyone, some great posts from RAWKites.

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2017, 08:30:23 PM »
Not subbing players late in games imo we would have won , it's a hard balance act without like replacements.

My point is can the training be altered if we don't have such players for the rotation and not cost us points .
Not really. As I said it's about accumulated fatigue. We either take every opportunity we can to reduce the minutes on key players or they will burn out. If we don't train them at match intensity then the risk of injury is greater and performance also drop.

There is no magic solution here unfortunately. As for subbing players late in games, the risk is MUCH higher leaving tired players on.

Firmino was brought off for Origi v Watford and people blamed Klopp for this somehow. Yet I demonstrated this was a very regular sub throughout last season using Origi's pace and power to battle defenders for the ball and hit them on the counter. In fact he was directly involved in something like 5 goals when coming off the bench when 1 goal ahead to put ties away and in only 1 of those games did we concede. This is just one of those instances of using hindsight to criticise a decision made without it.

However, you look at that Hoffenheim game a few days later and we leave a very tired Firmino & Mane on the pitch. As they are tired, none of them (mostly Mane though) close down Nordveit who carries the ball forward into our half and delivers the ball onto the foot of a striker in our box while under no pressure at all. A fresh sub would have been all over him.

Bringing off forwards for fresh legs is NEVER a mistake if the decision is being made for the right reasons. Sure, it can go against you, because that's how football works. But if we leave Firmino on the pitch until the end of every game he starts, he will burn out pretty fast this season due to accumulated fatigue.
Gonna stay behind at work and wait to see what happens.

I am betting some split arse and crying.

Offline Currywurst

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2017, 08:32:21 PM »
Just watched the Tunnel Cam for this match. Just after half time, there's a shot from inside the tunnel looking out onto the field. Nothing much going on, then suddenly this small curly-haired bearded bloke in a red shirt hares past, followed a minute later by a stream of players in blue shirts, who are just going past the tunnel as the crowd roars for a goal.

Offline McrRed

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2017, 08:59:53 PM »
Babu? I think I love you.